From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 27 15:24:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20474 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:24:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA21489 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:44:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:44:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199804271944.OAA21489@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #731 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 27 1998 Volume 01 : Number 731 In this digest: Re: IN> Risk IN> IPG: Risk RE: IN> Risk Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements IN> Interview with the Lilim. IN> Interview with the Shedite. IN> Interview with the Impudite Re: IN> A burning question (Uriel) IN> Grigori IN> Re: [none] IN> Re: IN- Grigori Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> A burning question (Uriel) Re: IN> The Hell/Heaven (im?)balance Re: IN> The rules of the Game Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking (was Re: GRAMMAR (Re: Fuzzy? (was Re: Character taxonomy))) Re: IN> 3 questions IN> In nomine/X-files Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> 3 questions Re: IN> Habbalah Re: IN> Dictionnaire Infernal Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> In nomine/X-files ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:57:36 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Risk > Personally I think that it should be, especially in the case of Demons whose resonance may be successfully resisted by anyone. This gives a powerful demon the option of reducing his chances of success for more powerful effect, kind of like a celestial haymaker. I don't like the fact that a demon with an automatic success on his resonance roll can be resisted by even the weakest of wills (God forbid [no pun intended] an angel, as the rules stand no self respecting angel should fall victim to a demon's resonance) and there is nothing said demon can do about it, that leaves to much to chance. There is a solution to such Will problems: the Song of Charm. If said demon finds that the person involved is an angel, or resists his resonance, then use a Song of Celestial Charm (something _so_ incredibly useful everyone should learn it) a time or two to soften up their Will, then bounce the resonance on them again. - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:25:57 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> IPG: Risk >>>In the IPG, under the Djinn expansion, it describes that Djinn may manipulate the check digit of their resonance +/-1 for every -2 they take on the roll. It then goes on to describe this as risk as per the main rule book. My question: is this "risk" available to other bands and choirs?<<< Anyone can apply the normal Risk modifier to most any roll, including resonances, if the GM allows it. The Djinn ability to take a greater modifier and alter it in either direction is particular to them. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:14:10 -0400 From: Richard L Thomas Subject: RE: IN> Risk - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD714B.C8BF2D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually I was looking for a disturbance free method. - -----Original Message----- From: GR Cogman [SMTP:maya@tcp.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 26, 1998 6:58 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Risk There is a solution to such Will problems: the Song of Charm. If said demon finds that the person involved is an angel, or resists his resonance, then use a Song of Celestial Charm (something _so_ incredibly useful everyone should learn it) a time or two to soften up their Will, then bounce the resonance on them again. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD714B.C8BF2D60 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjYXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABkA AABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAgH3XwEAAABPAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A 3QEPVAIAAAAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMuaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMu aW8uY29tAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAtljAQSAAQANAAAAUkU6IElO PiBSaXNrAH8DAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcEABoAEwAOAAoAAAAeAQEggAMADgAAAM4HBAAaABMADQAZAAAA LAEBCYABACEAAABEMkFEM0IwNjMzREREMTExOTgzNTQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMADWBgEDkAYAyAUAACEA AAALAAIAAQAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkA4LIo BWlxvQEeAHAAAQAAAA0AAABSRTogSU4+IFJpc2sAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb1xaQT9Bjut090z EdGYNURFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABkAAABpeGRyYWdvbnNAbWlu ZHNwcmluZy5jb20AAAAAAwAGEKZnNB0DAAcQrQEAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEFDVFVBTExZSVdBU0xP T0tJTkdGT1JBRElTVFVSQkFOQ0VGUkVFTUVUSE9ELS0tLS1PUklHSU5BTE1FU1NBR0UtLS0tLUZS T006R1JDT0dNQU5TTVRQOk1BWUFAVENQQ09VS1MAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACuAgAAqgIAAKMDAABMWkZ1 UvqJQncACgEDAfcgAqQD4wIAY4JoCsBzZXQwIAcThwKDAFAO9nBycTIP9iZ9CoAIyCA7CW8yNWY1 AoAKgXVjAFALA2MDAEELYG5nMTAzM0cLpwGRD/BjdHUHQGzAeSBJIHdhBCAJAGRvawuAZyACEAXA YUwgZAQAFsByYgBwY5ZlGAAJ0SAHgHRoBHAeLgqiCoQKhAswbGkznjYBQBUQAUARQG90BZBCdBCE MTYgLRyyTz0FEGcLgAdABdAHkHNh/GdlHLMZ9hvEG5ELExvGYGktMTQ0AUAbEDG0ODAWQXggUxaA RgNhijoMg2IP4EdSIAhQAmcDgltTTVRQOgEAwHlhQHRjcC7hBaAudWtdGfUWgAZgQwIwIedTdW5k I4AsJw/wEUADETI2JiAxOUA5OCA2OjUnEFAyTSRnVG8h5wuAX25nA3ALgB3wbEAbEBiQcywuaSQQ BaBtJGh1YkZqG/Eh51JlOhcgTvY+B/AEAGseXx9qGxQLtvMaDQqAVGgEkBkQBAAYQTJzBvB1dCoA A6B0b+MxEBSAaCBXAxADIBuxcQJgZW1zLBAZoBkQUzMCIBfwb2YikA+BbS7nFyAzwB3AaWQYYDLQ AiDfGfQgICXgBCAZoGEFQDMiXnAEkDEgA6ALgHYG8HbPCYAwwwOgFWFlbCYgBbHnCXAAkCnBIGgw 0ThxAiDvGOImIDMhNRV1D7AYQTNnnzgAB5AxYB1hM+MgKDEg6xmCF9JfMSBfKNEFAAmATmkCYBcQ OoFmdQMgZak3MHJ5AiBlGfRzGbCfPlA0sDLACsA2wXQpGEHnMWAHgDgydHcxwDGyM7DTG+ADoHVw MxJpBcAyMv05xCAG4CXQGQEzIRn0OTf/M6AxkTCAPEAd0AtxNDAvXwoKEgEARyAAAAMAEBAAAAAA AwAREAEAAAADAIAQ/////0AABzBgaiXqaHG9AUAACDBgaiXqaHG9AQsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwACgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAWACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0AAB4AJYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAA ADguMAADACaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAwgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADADKACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AQYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAA AAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AACeOw== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD714B.C8BF2D60-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:37:15 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: > e.g., not everyone wants the Elohim of War attunement, but almost > everyone loves Proficiency and Howl. I can just see the annual 'Servitors of Michael who helped out Laurence' awards ceremony. 'I grant you my servitor attunement Hunt' 'Aaaaaaaaw. Can't I have the Mercurian choir attunement instead? Please?' 'Pssst. Take the Hunt, and I'll swap you for a Merc attunement. Plus a small service charge, of course.' (Yes, I know Lilim can't do that but to be able to would be a cool, if hideously overpowered and inconsistent, attunement for Brights of Marc...) Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:35:48 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Interview with the Lilim. Interview with the Lilim. Why hello. No, it was no trouble, I'm always happy to help someone like you. Someday you may be able to help me with something, but let's not worry about that right now. I've been told you've already interviewed demons from most of the major Bands, and now it's my turn. Well, I'll tell you what I can, which may be a little or a lot. What is it worth to you? Okay. We, the Lilim, are like no other being in creation. People are constantly debating what we are and what we are not, but here's what I can reveal to you: we are Lilim. Pure and simple, we defy classification. Now every Demon Prince can fracture a few of their own Forces off and make a new demon of any other Band except us. Each of us is a separate, unique individual made by our Mother, and the other demons both love and hate us for it. Now I'm not going to tell you how Mother makes us, that would be worth more than mine annd your existences combined. The others, including the Demon Princes, love us because we are so useful. Nobody can do what we do, no one can fill our role. We gather power over others, with Geases. Why, is up to each Lilim. Some do it for their Prince. Some do it for Freedom and some do it purely for fun and power. Each Lilim costs a Prince to aquire, and they treat us like the prized investments we are. No Lilim will ever be given menial jobs, unless they really annoy their Prince. We are above and beyond the common Hell-spawned scum. This is why the others hate us as well. We are better than them, more valuable than them, and they know it. So sometimes we have to watch our backs. That's why the Sisters stick together. They'll watch out for each other, warning of danger, and one day we'll return the favour. Another reason they hate us is that Lilim never Fell. Unlike others, we are not flawed, imperfect, pathetic copies of our Divine cousins. We are Lilim, special and unique. I've heard of a few Lilim who have exercised their love of freedom and have gone Bright. They don't change who they are. I've heard that the few Archangels who can get their hands on a Lilim treat them as even more valuable than the Demon Princes do. Now that's an ego boost. Unfortunately these Bright few make life for the rest of us more complicated, because now Asmodeus watches the rest of us more carefully than ever. Oh well. Anyway, I must be going. It was so pleasing to have this little talk with you. Please, I'll pay for the drinks, don't trouble yourself. We'll just say that you owe me one. By Leath Sheales. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:49:43 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Interview with the Shedite. Interview with the Shedite. Hey! How are you doing? I'm glad you gave me your description, I never know what I'm going to turn up in. Do you like him? His name's Steven. He was a quiet accounting student before I found him a few days ago. Now he's wanted for petty theft, grand theft auto, sexual assault and tonight we are going for murder-one. Then I'll find another. So what's it liek to be a Shedim? "Cool" is the best way to descibe it. We never have hang-ups about looks, height, weight or anything. If we don't like it, trade up. Find a newer, better model. We were descended from Kyriotates in the Fall, and man am I glad we abandoned that! The rebellion was about freedom, and we embody that! Or perhaps I should say we are Freedom's spirit. He he he. Anyway, Kyriotates go for multiple action, lots of hosts, completely blowing your mind sideways. It's kind of cool but I don't miss it. Shedim are specialists, We pick and choose our hosts carefully, going for the right one. We offer them freedom. Freedom of action and thought.. Now people say we corrupt, but do you know how hard it is to get someone to do something they absolutely hate? No way! We look for those who would if only they had the freedom, then we give it to them. Humans are such fun, all these desires and urges hidden behind veils of society. We open their minds, allow them to experience their fantasy. Not like the Kyriotates. They take over completely, controlling their hosts. We allow the host to ride along, offering advice and giving the odd push here or there when they are unsure. Kyriotates are like the ultimate masturbation machines, having sex with themselves, where we Shidim are the ultimate in understanding partners. Want to know how to really piss a Kyrio off? Shoot his host then take it from him. Sure it hurts a bit to have the damaged host, but you only need it for a second. It messes with their minds and gives them Dissonance. Great, hey? Sure, we generallly only open a human's mind to the darker things, but humans enjoy what they call 'good stuff' all the time. We expand their horizons, give them opportunites they'd never have otherwise. Humans live such short lives, they should experience all they can here and now. If more humans knew the satisfaction of having sex with someone besides their husband or wife, or knew the joy of killing someone in their way, they'd do it. We show them what they want to know. We are social engineers, constructing humanity into perfect anarchy and corruption. So, that's about it. Do you like this gun? We bought it off a street punk for a bargain! Now we're off to show Steve's miserable girlfriend that he can be a man. It'll be fun. Be sure to watch the news tonight, I'll wave to you. Bye! By Leath Sheales. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:03:58 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Interview with the Impudite [and finally...] Interview with the Impudite. Hello. You've talked to the rest now you want to know about Impudites? We are the coolest, the best. I suppose your Lilim would ahve told you that she was the best, but that's the kind of talk you always get from the Sisters. They think that because they are rare they are special. Rare can be special, but it isn't always the case. Now don't get me wrong, I've met some terrific Lilim in my time, but also some scum. The Princes know. Lilim cost a lot and can be used for a lot of things, but if a Prince wants someone loyal, charming and depandable, nine times out of ten they'll call for an Impudite. You see, Lilim have this innate 'Freedom' thing they've inherited from Lilith. This makes even the most loyal likely to turn if they think they can get a better deal. Not us. We Impudites are like Mercurians without restrictions. We are the most like humans out of all the Bands, and they are the coolest. Definitely one thing God got right. Mercurians try to imitate humans, to be liek them, but they deny themselves the pleasure of the greatest gift humans have. Violence. How can you be human if you can't release that little ball of rage inside you occassionally? Mercurians claim to be "Friends of Man" but humans like us better. I could prove it if I had a Mercurian here but you'll have to take my word on it. Say a Mercurian and an Impudite walk into a room. Instantly the Mercurian can know who's related to who, what they're doing, so on and so forth. Who cares? The Impudite will be chatting to the group in the corner, making friends, getting to know all about them from them. Understand? A Mercurian can walk up and tell them all he knows, but it just freaks them out. They'd prefer us, we've taken the time to get to know them. We are charming to them, while the others, despite their claimed closeness to humanity, are just plain alien to your average human. And if the human needs to be slapped down, we'll do it while the Mercurian will cringe and call in the Malakim. Now, which human's going to respect someone who can't even do their own dirty-work? But we wouldn't kill the human. That would be a waste of Essence. They were bred for us. Easy Essence batteries which we can drain when we need it. They thank us for it. Now it's not even theft, if you think about it. They didn't earn it, they don't need it and the untrained can't even use it effectively. Better that we take what we need and use it for a purpose. They wouldn't allow a child to keep a million dollars for no purpose, they'd take it and use it. We do the same. Anyway, it's been great talking to you. I hope your article goes well but I have to run. I've got a date tonight with a hot young thing and I'm sure after a while she'll give me everything I want, and I do mean *everything*. Take it easy and enjoy yourself. I look forward to reading your interviews. Goodbye. By Leath Sheales. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:58:25 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> A burning question (Uriel) At 8:23 PM -0400 4/22/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Uriel was not origially created as a Malakite. The Malakim were >"invented" by her at the time of the Fall as something of a response. >Others followed her pure lead and changed from their old choir to be >Malakim.<<< > > >Uriel didn't "invent" Malakim; Uriel's Word triggered a transformation in >response to the Revolt, which turned Uriel into a Malakite and swept up >many other angels with him. But it was probably not a conscious decision on >anyone's part. > >(I know you put "invented" in quotes, but I just wanted to make sure that >was clear.) > >- -David I dunno, I kinda like the idea that Uriel could have done the Lilith thing, "You want more Malakim? You go through /me/." but his Seraphic nature and Malakite honor made the idea of keeping the process anathema to him. Seems also likely that the First Malakim, having been members of another Choir before the Fall, would take Oaths that support the ideals of that Choir. So Uriel never lied, and David refuses to betray his friends or ideals. But the wall I keep running up against along this train of thought is "What are Kyriotate-Malakim like?" The only idea that springs to mind is that Kyriotates who became Malakim may not have become just one Malakite, but rather, two or even three... = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:35:57 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Grigori There's one thing that's been bothering me about the Grigori thing:Assume Grigori have free will, for tje sake of argument. And well, some of the Grigori prove eminently corruptible. Perhaps even most of them. But there are some who stay faithful to Heaven, some who faithfully obey the orders of their Archangels, and those of the Seraphim Council. But there aren't, apparently, any Grigori still in Heaven. The whole Choir has been Outcasted, and apparently, not a single one who has been yet found worthy to be brought back into the fold. Doesn't really sit right with me. One way to change that... A few hundred years after the Fall, the Archangels get called up to the Upper Heavens, and return with the Grigori, a new choir designed to live among, and watch, and teach Humanity, for the next five hundred years or so. Five hundred years or so later, the Lord says "Allright, your mission's done. y'all come back now." And most do. There's just a few hundred of them remaining who decide that they like Earth better, because they feel there's more they can teach, because they feel the hyumans need them more, because they have lved ones, or because they just find the Corporeal Realm more fun. They would much rather stay there, against the expressed will of God. Their Archangels call them back. The Seraphim Council calls them back. And the Lord calls them back. The Seraphim Council is forced to declare these rebellious Grigori to be Outcasts. Cue Triads. I think this makes things a bit less blatantly unfair for the "Good" Grigor, while still allowing for a decent range of Nice and Nasty Watchers with reason to stay Dirtside. Comments extremely welcome. = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:02:52 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: [none] At 10:18 AM -0400 4/24/98, Graveyard Greg wrote: >Anyone here wonder what Kobal's BIG GAG will be? I think it's going to >be Redeeming himself...One heck of a punchline, yes? > >Too bad he'll get eaten by his 'brother', Haagentii > Seems to be the most popular answer to "What's Kobal up to?" And it turned out exactly the way you claim in Redneck Gaijin's "Dark Victory " viginette. It's just one of those things that strikes everyone independently, I guess. \|=) So here's another idea about "What Kobal's Up To" In the 70's, Eli went on walkabout, after assigningh almost all his servitors to other superiors at the turn of the century. And he hasn't been seen by anyone since. He's just gone. And Kobal's replaced him. The hard part is fooling all those Seraphim. But if one doesn't spend /that/ much time in Heaven, the likeliehood of running across Seraphim who are going to Resonate you falls off dramatically. Most angels aren't inthe habit of using their Resonances on their Archangels. Your friendly neighborhood Prince of Dark humor masquerading as Everybodys favorite Archangel. So what's the Joke? Well, it could be that he's planning to make "Eli" Fall, and take as many of his servitors as possible down with him. It could be he's planning to drive a bigger wedge in the politics of Heaven. Or maybe he has Redeemed himself, and doesn't want anybody to know. What bigger joke could there be than All of Creation? = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Trudy, Impudite Captain of Gluttony, the Demon of Popcorn ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:52:38 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Grigori In Briggs' A-Z of Angels, the bit about Grigori says that the whole choir agreed to mate with humans, so that no one of them would be responsible for the act (there's a quote about it, too, probably from Enoch). If the Grigori were a very new choir, and there were only say twenty or thirty in the band (a *reason* they might want to breed), it is quite possible the whole choir was outcast. BTW I quite like Briggs' A-Z of Angels. I think it's about the right depth for In Nomine - nice and concise. Also, the movie references etc, which ordinarily would be a silly inclusion for such a book, are great for a role-playing reference. SurturZ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:47:11 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Grigori If I recall correctly, in the original tale from the book of Enoch, the Grigori were not a "species" of angel, but a small group (seven?) of individuals. They all agreed beforehand to stand or fall together and, in the event, fell. But, for the IN canon, where Grigori are defined as a choir, your tale works very well too. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:55:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A burning question (Uriel) Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > The only idea that springs to mind is that Kyriotates who became > Malakim may not have become just one Malakite, but rather, two or > even three... A cute idea. Other possibilities are that ex-Kyriotates take oaths not to harm Corporeals (the way Kyriotates won't harm hosts), or make a practice of using the Song of Possession. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:04:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Hell/Heaven (im?)balance Stacy Stroud wrote: > I think it was fellow list-member Earl Wajenberg who first > proposed the following analogy, so I hope he doesn't mind too > much if I swipe it. Lucifer is not a king battling a rival king > over neutral territory, but an upstart crimelord who has taken > over part of the king's kingdom. Yeah, that was mine, and I'm just glad someone liked it enough to re-cycle. I was working off the general Augustinian idea that evil has no independent existence, but is just something good that's been warped. This is the monotheistic counterbalance to the dualism from Zoroastrianism. And even the Zoroastrians aren't *totally* dualistic. In their system, the good and evil gods have independent origins, but, because wisdom is part of good and folly part of evil, the good god is destined to win in the end. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:36:14 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> The rules of the Game I love it! Is it just me or do Dark Humour & the Game seem to have an awful lot in common? I guess the reason they hate each other so much is just because they can't agree on the rules ;-) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:24:27 -0400 From: IceHeart EvenFall Subject: Re: IN> Re: Princess of Nitpicking (was Re: GRAMMAR (Re: Fuzzy? (was Re: Character taxonomy))) At 05:48 PM 4/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Interesting; it seems that Princess Beth just fouled up. The article >critiqued by David Chart was written by Princess Beth; as such, David did >_not_ just "manage to correctly nitpick either a Seraph or an Elohite in >pedantic mode", the requirement for the Knight of Nitpicking Distinction. >Rather, he "managed to nitpick a Superior and gotten away with it" >(assuming that he's a Servitor of Nitpicking; and if he's not, he >shouldn't be receiving _any_ Nitpicking Distinctions to begin with), which >is the qualification required for Baron(ess) of Retroactive Editing. wouldn't it in fact be another level entirely? nitpicking the Princess of Nitpicking herself would (at least in my mind) count as impressive a feat as nitpicking some of the following... "Beth has higher distinctions, but so far, none of her Servitors have managed to accurately nitpick Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, Dominic, Laurence or Yves and reported back." IceHeart, Calabim of Balial ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:28:38 -0400 From: IceHeart EvenFall Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions At 07:57 PM 4/24/98 -0400, you wrote: > 1) Is Lucifer still an Archangel? Personally I think he is even though he is a demon, I don't think the Seraphim Council has the "juice" to strip him of this "rank", and being that God is no longer participating.... Lucifer (imo) is most definatly still an ArchAngel, if only because the War, being fated, is part of the Plan, and Lucifer is serving that Plan... > 3) Almost every one I meet LOVES Malakim. What gives? Do Malakim get more points at character creation? IMHO Malakim are not that formidable, or scary, in fact they have to be somewhat combat oriented just to survive their oaths. Malakim are not anymore fearsome than another choir of Angel. In fact I think an Ofanite of War is the most Deadly (Angel that is). They Can't Fall. My players are rather paranoid and as such they're very worried about falling so when they see "A Malakite CANNOT fall" (Emphasis mine) they leap at the chance. And they get cool black wings... ;) IceHeart, Calabim of Belial ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:46:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jose Burgos Subject: IN> In nomine/X-files Did anyone see the episode of the X-files this sunday? I found the story to hold lots of relevance to IN, particularly the mention of the Nephilim and their destruction by God. Interesting to note how Carter uses apocryphal Gnostic texts to flesh out his story. Also, the depiction of the Seraphim (possessing the four heads of the gospels, or the lion, eagle, man, and bull). Any comments? José burgos_j@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:05:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions "Almost every one I meet LOVES Malakim. What gives?" Another possibility is that they are simple and meet expectations. I mean, you pick up a game that's about angels versus demons, you expect warrior angels who whack demons. Malakim. I'm not saying Malakim fans are combat munchkins, or even that all Malakim need to be tightly focused on combat, but they ARE generally your basic demon-whacker. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 12:03 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements >Also, just to clarify: I think a Celestial cannot (normally) take Choir/Band >Attunements from Superiors that they do not serve. Is this right? They cannot *take* them, they *may* acquire them in the course of the game. > If so, >what's the justification for the difference in game? (If this is in the APG, >I apologise, as I don't have that one yet...) There's a little stuff in the IPG on it, in the section on switching Superiors -- this is the only common way for multiple Band attunements to be acquired. One way to think about this is that the Servitor's Choir/Band attunement comes from being bound to his Superior's Word, and is an outgrowth of the interaction between Word and Choir/Band nature. (This also explains the fact that there are multiple Servitor attunements for a Superior, but only a singular Choir/Band attunement per type.) The following is how I am handling all this (this isn't entirely canon, at least yet, but is based on some canon discussions during the writing of the IPG): (1) you always have the Choir/Band attunement of a Superior you are bound to (redeemed demons aren't actually bound until they earn this, they are essentially "in service to" the Superior) (2) you *may* be granted other Choir/Band attunements *of your true Superior only*. (This ability is an outgrowth of your connection to his Word -- you would lose these if you switched Superiors. These are not available if you are only in service to the Superior.) (3) you *may* be granted *your* Choir/Band attunement from another Superior (or keep it when switching Superiors). You cannot have *other* Choir/Band attunements of *other* Superiors (your nature has nothing in common with them, either by Word-attachement or Choir/Band nature). (4) You *may* be granted Servitor attunements from *any* Superior (though only yours will typically do this). This binds you weakly to their Word (and *may* subject you to their dissonance conditions). (5) If you are attached to too many Words (attunements from multiple Superiors), you may start losing your connection to some of them (i.e., the attunements may begin to fail) -- your nature can't be aligned with too many different Words at once. (6) As a rule, your Superior will *not* appreciate it if another Superior grants you anything. This is especially true for demons, but also fairly common with angels. In other words, your real Superior must consent to the outside connection, or he's likely to remove the attunement as soon as he sees it (and he *will* be able to tell!). Thus, the most likely cases where this may occur are: (a) you have switched Superiors, and have attunements from another that your Superior might find useful in a Servitor, and (b) your Superior and the granting Superior are allies. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 12:25 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions > 1) Is Lucifer still an Archangel? Personally I think he is even though he is a demon, I don't think the Seraphim Council has the "juice" to strip him of this "rank", and being that God is no longer participating.... No. In fact, he's *more* powerful than an Archangel -- he can grant Words, something that takes the whole Seraphim Council (or God) to do on the other side. > 2) What happened to Habbalah? The IPG has completely hamstrung and castrated this band. What used to be done is now done with a penalty and not even that well? Who play tests this stuff? And what kind of Celestials do they go up against? I didn't get that impression -- I don't have the books here to check, but what's in the IPG should be a slight expansion of their powers, and not a restriction. What is it that you think has been crippled? Concerning playtesting: IN is playtested primarily by the pool of authors, editors, and SJGames staff -- that's actually a larger group than typically playtests other SJGames products. You also seem to think that "playtesting" involves actually testing in play; this is only partly the case -- more often, it involves experienced gamers looking over the rules and trying to figure out if they're broken/inconsistent/unusable/unbalanced. BTW, could you please word-wrap your paragraphs? Not everyone uses Netscape (or whatever)... generally-accepted email netiquette is to word-wrap somewhere between 70 and 80 columns. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 12:33 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> 3 questions >> 3) Almost every one I meet LOVES Malakim. What gives? [cut] >True. I never figured that one out myself. I ultimately decided that >it's because of that uncomprimising "do not suffer an evil to live" >attitude that makes them frightening. With any other choir, you might >have a chance to talk your way out of it. With a malak, you have to >fight. Malakim are fearsome because of their behavior, not because of >their capabilities. Malakim are always uncompromising fighters, but they don't *necessarily* have to be combat-oriented. I have one NPC Malakite of Destiny who specializes in redemption cases, and I've been thinking that Malakim of Flowers may be political activists more than combat specialists (though they may do some of that, too). As someone pointed out, the attraction is probably the uncompromising, never-give-up attitude, rather than anything to do with combat power. IN is more about role-playing than combat, and the natures of the Choirs and Bands reflect this design attitude. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 12:45 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Habbalah > 1) In the IPG Habbalah may with a penalty on a Perception roll >sense the emotions of others. Habbalah may also enhance existing >emotions at a penalty equal to the targets Ethereal Forces, but the >targets Will roll to resist is penalized by the Habbalah's Celestial >Forces. What about when the Habbalah has already succeeded in sensing >the targets emotion and knows which emotion he is enhancing? Does the >penalty to the Habbalah still apply? I would say no -- he know's what he's working with, and it's shooting in the dark. > Does the penalty to the target still apply? I would say yes -- the target is already inclined in the right direction, it should be easier to push him. > 2) Songs and Skills can be enchanted into objects to create Relics and Talismans. Can attunements be enchanted into objects? Not by ordinary servitors, I would say. A Superior might be able to do it, for one of their own attunements. Also, there may be Songs that duplicate some or all of the effects of the attunement, as some existing Songs do for some resonances. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Bowman Subject: Re: IN> Dictionnaire Infernal On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Heretic103 wrote: > I just saw it as a citation in Angels A to Z As a Reference Librarian I can assure you that the fact that it's cited somewhere doesn't mean it exists (or that the citation has the correct author, title, publisher or date). However, _Dictionnaire Infernal_ does exist. The author is J-A-S Collin de Plancy. It was reprinted by Slatkine Reprints in Geneva and C. Lacour in Nimes in 1993. It had at least 6 editions in the 19th century. Libraries that have copies include: University of Florida, Notre Dame, Harvard Divinity School, Bibliotheque National, University of Strasbourg, Illinois State, Princeton, NY Public, University of Victoria (BC), Johns Hopkins (an Italian edition), University of Michigan, Berkeley, UC DAvis, Louisiana State, Wellesley, UNC Chapel Hill, and many others. Michael Bowman bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 13:12 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements >On the Choir/Band attunements: why do Superiors (apparently) prefer to hand >out the more expensive Servitor attunements, rather than the Choir/Band >ones? What makes you think this? I don't recall anything like this, unless you're referring to giving out attunements to Servitors of *other* Superiors. In that case, it follows somewhat from the model I posted a bit earlier - -- it's hard to give someone a Choir/Band attunement from outside the Word they're bound to. The Servitor attunement is more stand-alone, and carries some binding to the Word in it. (Note that humans can acquire Servitor attunements, though it's rare. They *can't* get Choir/Band attunements, if I recall correctly.) > Unless, of course, the game expense reflects nothing important about >the game-world, which is odd in itself. I don't think the point cost is more than a rough guide to game-world importance -- In Nomine isn't particularly concerned about precise game balance. Look at the rather wide variation in the utility of Choir/Band attunements. I do think that the point cost tends to reflect the general notion that Choir/Band attunements are typically weaker than Servitor attunements (but not always). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:07:04 +0100 From: "David Chart" Subject: Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements - --On Mon, Apr 27, 1998 1:12 pm +0000 "Walter Milliken" wrote: >>On the Choir/Band attunements: why do Superiors (apparently) prefer to hand >>out the more expensive Servitor attunements, rather than the Choir/Band >>ones? > > What makes you think this? I don't recall anything like this, unless > you're referring to giving out attunements to Servitors of *other* > Superiors. That's what I was referring to, yes, and your earlier post provides an answer. >> Unless, of course, the game expense reflects nothing important about >>the game-world, which is odd in itself. > > I don't think the point cost is more than a rough guide to game-world > importance -- In Nomine isn't particularly concerned about precise game > balance. Even a rough guide should respect a factor of two... Thanks for the explanation. David Chart Balseraph Knight of Nitpicking Seraph Servitor of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:30:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> In nomine/X-files At 08:46 AM 4/27/98 -0700, you wrote: >Did anyone see the episode of the X-files this sunday? >I found the story to hold lots of relevance to IN, particularly the >mention of the Nephilim and their destruction by God. Interesting to >note how Carter uses apocryphal Gnostic texts to flesh out his story. >Also, the depiction of the Seraphim (possessing the four heads of the >gospels, or the lion, eagle, man, and bull). Any comments? I found the episode in particular quite useful. It spawned a great story seed that if I can work out the kinks I'll post. BTW:Does anyone on the list watch the show Millennium? I've found it very inspirino for low powered Soilder type games of In Nomine. I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #731 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.