From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 1 18:51:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21230 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:51:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA27176 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:45:35 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:45:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199805012345.SAA27176@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #744 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 744 In this digest: Re: IN> Abortion in IN Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic Re: IN> Identifying ensouled beings Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> Question about Motion (Celestial) Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic Re: IN> Angels & Gun Control IN> New Discords IN> Ofanim and Servitor of Wind Questions Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic Re: IN> Ofanim and Servitor of Wind Questions Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:21:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> Abortion in IN BVarious cut people... 1)Yves isn't really a "kill-em and let their next incarnation sort 'em out" kinda guy. I fetus with a dark Fate and a meager Destiny would find himself well-protected and guided (see Good Omens, and how each side tries to change the "Antichrist" with tutors) by angels guiding him to his Destiny (not that they probably know they are - their orders probably read "swing your right hand 45 degrees upon reading this. Walk child X to school. Walk child X home from school. Swing your right hand 45 degrees upon completion of walking child X home, but in a different dirention then last time." WHy? Who knows, it's DESTINY!). I just get the impression from his expanded write-up that he wouldn't do such a thing to a fetus, even if he was unopposed by Kronos and Co. 2)And a big IMHO but only the people who work for Dominic have to go for the old eye-for-an-eye theory. The Malakim I play would kill ( would be bound by his vows to kill) someone he knew would become a great evil (well, he was convinced would become agreat evil). He doesn't charge every demon he sees - the arguement has been well-posted here, the ultimate goal of destroying evil is often better met by not charging into a fight. But it is also often quite an awesome idea (in his mind) to destroy someone before they can fight back/areprotecteced/etc if it will make destroying evil easier down the line. Enosh Malakim of Creation In Service to Wind Card-carring MiVDC Founding member of the KANCIP coaltion On Fri, 1 May 1998, Julian Breen wrote: +++ATS0=1 > Simon Hailes writes: > > >We seem to all be forgetting that A) heaven is liberalized and B) Angels, > >especially Malakim, are not adverse to murder. > > A) To an extent. The exact degree that it is liberalized will vary from > GM to GM of course. > > B) Not really murder, but execution. Consequently, you should generally > have first committed a crime so great so as to warrant it. O.K. so > Malakim are less forgiving than most, but basically, the agents of > Heaven are unlikely to kill you unless you've _done wrong_. > > > Remember that the good guys are not supposed to be fiddling around in > human affairs too much. That is the Word of God. The angels as I see it > should be keeping low profiles; they are far less overt than infernals. > The main reason angels exist on earth in my game is to thwart the > machinations of the diabolicals who of course couldn't give a rat's ass > about God's Laws. > > > > Now it does seem hard to > >justify the murder of a foetus on charges of corruption, but what about > >servitors of Yves, what if having a baby at seaid stage of life will draw > >said person to their fate, > > Well, as can be seen from the discussion so far, there are differing > opinions on when the soul enters the body. Therefore, if you place it at > birth, for example, the abortion is not murder. > > My response to your above example would be that Yves would send a > servitor with the task of steering that mother away from that particular > conception *in the first place*. This might be true of a woman who was > fated to die, say, in childbirth. Especially if the child also had a > very Dark Fate. Preventative medicine. > > Another point here would be that if the forces that constitute a human > soul do not adhere to it's mortal form straight away, then this gives > ample time for a Prince to squeeze a demon into this 'vessel'. Angels > concerned with conception should notice this, and in this instance - > where the corporeal form of a soul has been 'stolen' - an abortion might > be justified by Heaven because it is nothing but an incarnate demon that > you are disposing of. Presumably the original displaced soul will be > reassigned. > > (This is one of the *very* rare circumstances in which I personally > could see Heaven endorsing abortion. To me it offends my concept of the > place.) > > > the tv talk shows and soapies are filled with > >broken women who gave birth at a young age, then had they're lifestyles > >changed, until they spiralled away in to mediocrity, and what about > >post-natal depression, a servitor of yves may believe it better for a > >mother to abort a foetus now, then kill it and herself later in the grips > >of this affliction. > > Well, the servitor might, but that IMHO, would be a dangerous mindset to > acquire if they wished to remain in Heaven. In this instance I would > view Yves' servitors as not doing their jobs properly. Such an angel > should be actively trying to help such a woman come to terms with her > trauma; perhaps in a role as a post-natal depression counsellor, for > example. In any case, they should be trying to help alleviate the > situation rather than resorting to the methods you describe. Even if it > is found that the child is best removed from the parent, and perhaps > found a loving family elsewhere this would still be preferable; the > child would still have a chance. > > > > >Oh yeah, Jordi would not be fussed with it, anything that stops the human > >race growing is a-okay to him. > > > Well, yep, can't argue here. After all, many of his subjects *eat* their > offspring. :-O > > > -- > Julian > jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:23:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic On Fri, 1 May 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > >3)Refuse to take them at their word. Ask for ID. No, celestial form > > >isn't good enough - anyone can take celestial. > > > > Actually, that's not accurate -- if you see someone celestial in > > the corporeal realm, you *know* what they are. Unless they're > > something you've never seen before. ("What's that??" "Um. A newly > > redeemed Bright Lilim. Don't let her bother you, fondling those > > black wings...") > > Hey. HEY! I resemble that remark! > > *fondle* *fondle* *fondle* > > - Em > Well...as long as she's a Lilim... *embarrased blush as hostility towards triads in general fades away* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:39:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> Identifying ensouled beings I'm no more alert then I was last time I posted, but here I go. My basic premise here is that once we get the initial conception, ie we have one cell that will (we hope) grow up to be a people, a dreamscape occurs. Regardless of when the soul hits. Especially if you go by one posters idea that as soon as sleep starts (as opposed to REM sleep and the other cycles) the person enters their dreamscape. That makes the physical damned important as far as dreamscapes are concerned. And I would be happy to see the precedent set of the Shedim possessing a fetus - next step would be possessing a malignant cancer, or virus. To me, it makes not sense to allow possession of something like a fetus...I'd allow it (at the SOONEST) when the umbilical cord is cut. And out of curiosity-are you running a game/in agame in which the exact time of"souling" is known all around, shedim drive fetuses into corruption, and/or a celestial form can touch a physical(for purposes of attunement/etc?) Enosh Malakim of Creation In service to caffine (yes He is an Archangel. Take my word) Card-carring MiVDC, Founding member of the KANCIP coaltion On Fri, 1 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Titus 3 11 wrote: > > > >Okay, i 'm shootin' from the hip here, I haven't slept for a few days (see > >one of my previous posts about being willing to take a geas for a good > >coffee...I wasn't being "cute") so I really don't feel up to > >double-checking the good ol' IN text - feel free to mock me w/o mercy for > >inaccurate details...anyway, here's what I have to say to Neel. > > > >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> Kevin Walsh wrote: > >> >Whether they have one waking is irrelevant since to the best of anyone's > >> >knowledge only Blandine and Beleth can access waking dreamscapes. Now if > >> >you want to approach one of them and ask them if they could check out a > >> >certain foetus to see if it has a dreamscape and therefore a soul, you can > >> >be my guest. > >> > >> Er, no -- when you enter the vale of dreams, you are in a place where > >> all the dreamscapes of every person, waking or sleeping, are visible. > >> You can't *enter* the dreamscape of a waking person, but there's > >> certainly nothing stopping you from watching it from the outside. > > > > > >I thought that dreams appeared as globes or similiar shapes - silvery and > >such...not peeping glasses into the persons dreams...if you are correct, > >then I will be spending a lot more time in the Marches gathering dirty > >dirt on folks... > > > > >From _The Marches_: > > The Vale contains the dreamscapes of sleeping mortals. To outsiders > like the celestials, they appear in an infinite variety of forms, > often in some kind of reflective or crystalline form: a mirror, > crystal, pool of water or floating iridescent bubble of some kind > suspended in the mists of the Vale. Anyone near the dreamscape can > look into it and see images of the dream going on within. Many of > the dreamscapes belong to mortals who are awake. These dreamscapes > are like shadowy versions of the dreamworlds of sleeping humans. > They are "off limits" to anyone, due to the influence of the > mortal's conscious mind. Occasionally the dreamscape of an awake > human will show flickers of thoughts and daydreams. It is believed > that Beleth and Blandine can access the dreams of conscious humans, > but no other celestial or spirit has such power. > > (I got this off the IN webpage, so I don't have a page number. Sorry.) > > You see flickery images in a waking dreamscape; I think the amount of > useful info you can get is very GM-dependent even if you stipulate > the GM follows canon. (I'd be lenient, myself, but then I allow the > Song of Symphony from the LR to starting PCs -- I think that > supernatural beings should have supernatural sources of information.) > > >> > >> The point is that you don't need to enter the dreamscape; you just > >> need to find it -- and this means doesn't matter whether the person > >> is awake or asleep. And all that takes is a Cherub or a Song of > >> Attraction. > > > > A Cherub? I can see it - "Umm, Mike? Buddy? would you please attune to > >this fetus? So I can find its dreams?" Beyond getting in physical > >contact! Song of Attraction - does that work across plains of existance? > > > > A bit later it says: > > Celestials who enter the Marches on their own appear at the base of > the tower they are aligned with. To find a specific dreamscape in > the Vale requires the celestial to search for it. Attunements and > Songs that will locate a subject in the corporeal realm will also > locate his dreamscape. > > So yes, you can "get a fix" in the corporeal world and then use > a Song of Attraction or the Cherub resonance to find the dreamscape > in the ethereal realm. And the dreamscape is there regardless of > whether or not you are awake, so it should be possible to determine > whether or not a fetus has a soul yet or not. > > As for contact, an angel could take celestial form and then it can get > close enough to attune without being blocked by barriers of flesh. > > So the minimum character point cost to find out if someone has a human > soul are: > > 0 for Shedim (who can just try to do a possession). > 1 for Cherubim and Djinn (for 1 level in the Song of Dreams) > 2 for everyone else (for 1 level in the Songs of Attraction and Dreams) > > This is low enough that the answer should probably be common knowledge > among celestials. > > Though this raises an interesting question...can Shedim possess the > undead in canon? > > -- > Neel Krishnaswami > neelk@alum.mit.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:53:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions On Fri, 1 May 1998, Simon Hailes wrote: > Pee Kity, Mr Edelstein, Jo, Jesse what about you guys? ANDREALPHUS: Antonio Banderas. While not the greatest actor, he does sultry and sexy well, and I believe makeup could make him into an attractive woman as well (I'm assuming Andrea will switch genders often in the movie), thus we won't need two actors. ASMODEUS: Anthony Hopkins. Yes, the picture in the book inspired this choice; it's those EYES. Cold, manipulative, evil...Hopkins is great at that. BELETH: Glenn Close. She can be pretty scary when she wants to be. Just add long black hair and you're good to go. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:07:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Question about Motion (Celestial) On Fri, 1 May 1998, David.Evans wrote: > > > >> C) Can you teleport something into someone? > > > > > > > >IANANR, but no, I don't believe you can. That's WAY too deadly. > > What, prey tell, does IANANR stand for? I Am Not A NetRep...from the well-known net.acronym IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer), which is almost always followed by ", but..." Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:19:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic On Fri, 1 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Just remember: a Seraph of Judgment adds his Celestial Forces to > his Perception when invoking his resonance. Yes, this *does* boost > check digit. Yes, he *can* shake your hand or touch you on the shoulder > to boost his CD higher still. Yes, he *can* tell what you had for > breakfast the first time you ate corporeal form, and yes, he will > probably disapprove. > > I ADORE Seraphim of Judgment, really I do. They're ANNOYING...I don't let 'em in my game, except as NPCs. Why? Because a valid STARTING character, with 5 CelForces and Perception 12, ALWAYS succeeds with a check digit of 6! (Yeah, I'm saying this like it's new news....) So what are you supposed to do? Seraphim are bad enough, but when it takes a 666 to make them fail a roll, it can ruin your campaign. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:21:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions On Fri, 1 May 1998, Jesse wrote: > How about Andre being played by Al Fraken in his "Pat" SNL charcter? Al Frankin plays Stuart Smalley. Julia Sweeny plays Pat. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:49:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic At 2:08 PM -0500 5/1/98, Titus 3 11 wrote: >On Fri, 1 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 12:16 PM -0500 5/1/98, Titus 3 11 wrote: >> >>"I shall of course be adding assault to your long list of charges..." >> >Ways to upset a tria w/o getting outcast >> >> >3)Refuse to take them at their word. Ask for ID. No, celestial form >> >isn't good enough - anyone can take celestial. >> >> Actually, that's not accurate -- if you see someone celestial in >> the corporeal realm, you *know* what they are. Unless they're >> something you've never seen before. ("What's that??" "Um. A newly >> redeemed Bright Lilim. Don't let her bother you, fondling those >> black wings...") > >Ohh, i belive that they are the choir that they say they are ( I suppose). >I just don't have to believe that they are what they say they are. ("A >triad? I don't recognize you guys. Maybe you're those Dominic groupies I >'ve heard so much about. You can't fool me! Till the Seraph tells you so, celestially.... >> Princes might be exceptions. They certainly manifest as "human(oid)" >> in Hell. >Okay, append the opening statment to read "w/o being outcast Check errata. Outcasts get to go celestial, just like Renegades. >and without >involving Demon Princes. Anyone using these ideas while dealing with a >demon prince, and archangel, god, lucifer, or an NPC that really matters >is obviously a raving Ofanite and should just be moving very fast away and >laughing as the triad fails to catch up. If you've got a Prince posing as a member of a triad, you're toasty anyway, so why bother... O;> >> Just remember: a Seraph of Judgment adds his Celestial Forces to >> his Perception when invoking his resonance. Yes, this *does* boost >> check digit. Yes, he *can* shake your hand or touch you on the shoulder >> to boost his CD higher still. Yes, he *can* tell what you had for >> breakfast the first time you ate corporeal form, and yes, he will >> probably disapprove. > >Well, then I guess blatant grossness will do (the first breakfast >was...euuhhh...snakes...{seraph at this point starts muttering things like >"f**king Enosh I hate him."}) Well, there is that. If it's true. >And granted, they can nail the truth almost every time. All I'm saying >(and saying loudly) is that I want validation that he succedded. >Pretending to be terribly paranoid makes this easier. You want validation? Heh. You're not going to have to ask. Seraphim in general tend to finish your sentences with the *whole* thing you didn't say... >> I ADORE Seraphim of Judgment, really I do. > >i adore seraphim the way every cartoon mouse loves every cartoon cat. They often have Good Views. >>> >4)[...] If they convict you, then say that >> >she/he/it was your demonic contact - look how their evil powers made you >> >suck up to them! >> >> See above for how Seraphim of Judgment can really put a crimp in >> any tactic that involves falsehood. (Until they roll that 666!) > >mmmmmm...but I REALLY THINK that he made me do it...he just didn't know >that he made me do it...ummmm...I think i'll surrender to the nice >servitors of judgement nowimsorry. Malakite of Judgment: "Wise." >>>(Bitterness - the power tool of angry deserted servants >>>of Creation everywhere). Its okay - she/he/it works for Dominic, they >>>deserve hell. >> >>You know, Dominic is hostile to Eli, but not vice versa... > >I know, but I like to carry that torch for Eli. Ah, but would Eli like that? Or would he tell you, "Loosen up, man. Don't let the Man bother you. Have a snakey cake."? >If we meet up again I'm hoping to become Angel of Freedom. Or something. >Maybe just Angel of Freedom from that (should-be) God-damned Heavenly >Inquisition. Just remember, it's not clear what happens to Word-sharing celestials of varying power levels. Lilith might take exception to the first. And might take interest in the second. (In our game, we think that Lilith will take an interest in an NPC Seraph of Creation who wants the Word of Sexual Openess (aka, people having healthy, non-repressed, consensual, loving sexual relationships) -- and there's enough Word- touching that Lilith drops in on the NPC when she (Lilith) is bored and wants to bug Teri.) >>>5)Refuse to be a pain in the ass. This works great when they come back >>>with all new roles ("That's right - I can issue search warrents [like this >>>one], he has the right to shoot people [like you], and he's already wanted >>>for murder. So do what we say.) so that you can't legitly ask them to >>>leave. Nothing annoys them like a servant of Eli who congratulates them >>>on doing SUCH A FINE JOB!! >> >>The other tactic is to tell them everything. All the truth. Anything >>they want to know. In detail. Excruciating detail. Including the sex >>scenes. Especially useful if you have a virgin Seraph. (Though I hear >>they've been de-virgining them with Mercurians and Elohim of Judgment, >>to take care of exactly this.) > >The wonderful thing is, it makes perfect sense for a servant of Eli to >have sex after almost anything(well, before,after, or during) (IMHO, they >do need to be lovers, not seducers though. Leaving a partner feeling used >is for Andre, leaving a partner feeling euphoric makes Novalis' job >easier!) 'Zactly. Lovers. Caring. Tenderness. Sharing. Selflessness! If they're of Creation and have known each other for longer than an hour, they've been lovers at least once... >so no matter what the triad asks about the phrase "...and then we >got naked.." and its explicit companions will come up. >Offer to show them! (Song of light) Exactly! >Before you start, think >of a legit reason to do the hologram - questions like "are you doing that >to bug me?" then tune negative. Unless you're doing it to bug them -- they can catch a *lot*... "You're doing that to bug us *and* show us everything..." >randomly spend esence. If they think you may be trying to run, twitch and >spend apoint. Watch them draw weapons! "You know, Most Holy, it would just be easier to kill this vessel and finish the interrogation upstairs." "I do see the merit in that statement, Virtue. Shall we make a vote of it, Guardian?" >This one will probably be to outlandish for most people, but here it goes >- >be an inargueably awesome fount of angelic goodness. By Doms standards. They'll love you and ask if you want to serve Judgment... O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:59:16 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Angels & Gun Control John Karakash - LUCENT ASCC wrote: > > Walter Milliken wrote: > > >That jarred me too. Here in Sweden, it's national news if the police kill > > >someone. No kidding. > > > > Doesn't happen all *that* often here (the US), either, through probably > > a bit more than some more civilized places. I seem to recall reading > > somewhere that most police officers in the US never fire their weapons > > in their whole careers, except for practice. > > US law enforcement officers are, typically, drilled > in NOT using their weapons as much as they are in using them. > More law-enforcement officers are shot with their own weapons > than with illegally-obtained firearms due to this reluctance > to use lethal force. That's why non-lethal alternatives are > looked-for with such vigor; the cops would be less reluctant > to use them than their weapons. > Also, it seems that, when a policeman does fire his gun for real [not just practice], there is a pretty good chance that they will end up retiring shortly thereafter. You may also want to look around at some of the stats on police mortality after they have shot someone, especially if they killed the person they shot. Judging by what I have been told _by police_, they would almost be better off if they were *not* required to carry guns. tom, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:33:27 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> New Discords Here's a pair of Discords -- one for Seraphim and one for Balseraphim, though some non-*seraphim can still use them. They're modeled after some semi-traditional folklore about angels and demons (which means I saw them once someplace). I don't like the names, but I wasn't feeling creative enough to come up with evocative ones. Better ones would be appreciated. Truthspeaker No seraph may lie, but a seraph with this discord cannot even evade questions. The most they can do is to simply refuse to answer the question, and even then they must answer truthfully the third time someone repeats the question. Worth 8 points. I'd make it worth about 15 for a non-seraph on a gut-feeling basis. (Or it could be a good pair of oaths for a Malak of the Sword...hmm.) Twisty Liar All demons lie, but a demon with this discord is even flakier and less reliable than usual. A demon with this discord cannot speak the same lie to someone three times. Most demons with this discord will go to considerable lengths to hide it, and are past masters of changing the subject and altering minor details of their story each time they tell it. (GM's call how minor the changes must be. See gobs and gobs of fiction for examples.) Worth about 5 points for a non-balseraph, 10 for a balseraph. (They can suffer dissonance for getting caught in a contradiction.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:41:10 -0400 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: IN> Ofanim and Servitor of Wind Questions Greetings all... First off, if any of these questions have been answered before, I apologize in advance. I only get to skim the list off and on when I have a few spare minutes... Anyways, I was sitting down today creating a character who is an Ofanim serving Janus, and I came up with a few questions. I dutifully checked the FAQ, but none of the questions were answered there, so I thought I'd shoot them this way. 1) Will an Ofanim gain Dissonance and eventually Fall if he is constrained against his will? I mean, can a resourceful Demon just chain up an Ofanim and wait for the inevitable? Or does an Ofanim only gain Dissonance if he is free to act and does not? At first glance I thought the former, but then in the APG in the section on new Discords for Ofanim it said that Claustrophobia was worth more for an Ofanim because a claustrophobic Ofanim would gain Dissonance if confined and eventually Fall. That would be redundant if the Choir as a whole would gain Dissonance from being confined, wouldn't it? 2) The same exact question, but regarding the Servitors of the Wind. 3) Can any Servitor of the Wind (not just Ofanim) take Claustrophobia for 2 pts/lvl instead of 1 for the same reasons that an Ofanim could? 4) Does an Ofanim serving Janus get double Dissonance for inaction since it is Dissonant for both his Choir and Archangel? Or does he just get lucky and only have one set of restrictions to follow? 5) Does Janus actually *have* Tethers? If so, how do the Seneschals of the Tethers of the Wind keep from gaining Dissonance by staying there to guard it? Do all Janus's Tethers move? Are they on trains or planes or something? Or do his Seneschals just rotate posts every 3 days? 6) Does traveling a set circuit... ie Houston for 3 days, then El Paso for 3 days, then Dallas for 3 days and then back to Houston count as moving on for purposes of avoiding Dissonance? I mean, it seems awfully constrained and contrary to the idea of moving free like the Wind... But if such a circuit does not count, that would again make it harder for the Seneschals of the Wind to protect Janus's Tethers... ******************************************************* Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon charybdis@krilion.cnchost.com http://www.krilion.cnchost.com **"If you talk to God, it's called prayer. ** ** If God talks to you, it's called schizophrenia." ** ** --Fox Mulder, The X Files ** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:01:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic At 4:19 PM -0400 5/1/98, Pee Kitty wrote: >On Fri, 1 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Just remember: a Seraph of Judgment adds his Celestial Forces to >> his Perception when invoking his resonance. Yes, this *does* boost >> check digit. Yes, he *can* shake your hand or touch you on the shoulder >> to boost his CD higher still. Yes, he *can* tell what you had for >> breakfast the first time you ate corporeal form, and yes, he will >> probably disapprove. >> >> I ADORE Seraphim of Judgment, really I do. > >They're ANNOYING...I don't let 'em in my game, except as NPCs. Why? >Because a valid STARTING character, with 5 CelForces and Perception 12, >ALWAYS succeeds with a check digit of 6! (Yeah, I'm saying this like it's >new news....) So what are you supposed to do? Seraphim are bad enough, but >when it takes a 666 to make them fail a roll, it can ruin your campaign. Well, they're very fragile that way. A valid starting character for a SoJ is probably closer to... 2/3/4 -- Will 7, Perception 9. Could go to Will 5, Perception 11, though, if you don't mind being Habbalite- fodder. (Will 5 is just wimpy. Habbies love Will 5 in an angel. So do Balseraphs, in non Seraphim.) That's only success with check 4... Without touching... (I suppose 2/2/5 is also valid, though their Knowledge (Law) is going to suck and/or their ability to fire guns.) I admit, to control such creatures in my fiction (and I think Maya does similar in her Fiat Justitia game), I make sure that they can't Truth on anything that is 'too far away' from the person speaking. If Joe Angel doesn't know Jill angel from blueberries, then asking Joe anything about Jill gets a null reading, even on Truth. I also decree that the closer the Truth would get to finding out about a Superior, the fuzzier the information gets. "Jill has been dealing with Lilith," from someone who doesn't *know* this won't get much. If someone claims this, and is lying, then the Truth might be, "Jill has been dealing with a Lilim who has hornswoggled her into *believing* she's actually her Mother." The other tactic is to confront them with a Truth that they don't want to see. Overflow them with details that they don't want to know! Then they'll start thinking about limiting themselves voluntarily to low check digits... (Hey, *I'd* let 'em do that... Seraphim and Elohim, in particular...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:18:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ofanim and Servitor of Wind Questions At 5:41 PM -0400 5/1/98, Charybdis GreyDragon wrote: >1) Will an Ofanim gain Dissonance and eventually Fall if he is constrained >against his will? I mean, can a resourceful Demon just chain up an Ofanim >and wait for the inevitable? Or does an Ofanim only gain Dissonance if he >is free to act and does not? The latter, but it is *very uncomfortable* for an Ofanite to be confined! *VERY*. And terrifying. >At first glance I thought the former, but then in the APG in the section on >new Discords for Ofanim it said that Claustrophobia was worth more for an >Ofanim because a claustrophobic Ofanim would gain Dissonance if confined >and eventually Fall. That would be redundant if the Choir as a whole would >gain Dissonance from being confined, wouldn't it? Exactly. Claustrophobia is more dangerous because it *compels* Ofanim to act-act-act, personally. >2) The same exact question, but regarding the Servitors of the Wind. Here, I think that if they *are* confined, held in one place for over 3 days, they do get problems. >3) Can any Servitor of the Wind (not just Ofanim) take Claustrophobia for >2 pts/lvl instead of 1 for the same reasons that an Ofanim could? No -- they have to change *locale* in 3 days, not constantly be moving- moving-moving the way Ofanim do. >4) Does an Ofanim serving Janus get double Dissonance for inaction since >it is Dissonant for both his Choir and Archangel? Or does he just get >lucky and only have one set of restrictions to follow? Ofanim must act, Windies must keep moving. It's not *quite* the same. An Ofanite can gain dissonance in a second -- they see a child about to be hit by a car and just stand there. Windies just have to move on for at least a day (my ruling) after they've been in the area for 3 days. No, I don't know if it's one point of dissonance per day over 3, or per 3 day intervals. Ask the GM. >5) Does Janus actually *have* Tethers? Yes. >If so, how do the Seneschals of the >Tethers of the Wind keep from gaining Dissonance by staying there to guard >it? This is slightly undefined, but I'm working on it. I think some of them are just *SO* very much "Word of Wind" that they don't *have* to move. The top of Mount Washington ("Windiest place on Earth!") is one of these. Another way would be for the Seneschal to be a Kyrio -- who can move with one set of vessels and leave a Force or two anchored at the Tether at all times. (Maybe swapping out Forces?) >Do all Janus's Tethers move? Are they on trains or planes or >something? Many do and are. >Or do his Seneschals just rotate posts every 3 days? This is not entirely feasible, but yes, a Seneschal could travel -- and with the Song of Motion at a high enough level, they could teleport back if they knew their Tether were in trouble, and have caretakers at the Tether in the meantime. >6) Does traveling a set circuit... ie Houston for 3 days, then El Paso for >3 days, then Dallas for 3 days and then back to Houston count as moving on >for purposes of avoiding Dissonance? Yes, though a Windy would probably get bored after a while and want to hit Austin and San Antonio and Corpus Christi... Wind can go round and round and round in roughly the same spot... Think of the Red Spot on Jupiter, or the jet stream. But someone who had a set circuit for decades might start getting itchyfeet. Or Janus would gripe at 'em. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:16:50 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words Steve Jessop wrote: > Btw, the expanded Michael write-up: who, when and where? As some > people may have noticed, I kind of care about this one. > I second the motion: [on Sting voiceover/] I want my.. I want my.. I want my Michael AA [/off Sting]. *g* tom timberlake, Angel of Filk, servitor of the Archangel of Karaoke *G* [there are two for the humorous Words files, Divine section] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:28:15 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words In a message dated 5/1/98 7:50:40 AM, stephenj@linc.ox.ac.uk writes: (Talking about Michael): >He's a tactical genius, but that isn't his main strength. He is the patron >of soldiers, not generals. (Dunno if that's Catholic canon, but it would >sure help my argument if it was.) Soldiers specifically, yes. Also Policemen and the Irish. Anyone who can say, "Don't call me sir, I work for a living," is under Michael. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:58:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words At 5:16 PM -0500 5/1/98, Uncle Wolf wrote: >Steve Jessop wrote: >> Btw, the expanded Michael write-up: who, when and where? As some >> people may have noticed, I kind of care about this one. > >I second the motion: [on Sting voiceover/] I want my.. I want my.. I >want my Michael AA [/off Sting]. *g* http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/FinalTrumpet/ "[...] The Final Trumpet has expanded writeups on Michael, Baal, Kobal and Malphas; two new Superiors -- Khalid, Archangel of Faith, and Magog, Demon Prince of Cruelty; [...]" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:32:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> Upsetting Dominic On another side-note, this is probably the only arguement in which I've laughed out loud (well, I've laughed out loud because something was funny, not just to piss someone off). Here are more, unsipped comments. On Fri, 1 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 2:08 PM -0500 5/1/98, Titus 3 11 wrote: > >On Fri, 1 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > >> At 12:16 PM -0500 5/1/98, Titus 3 11 wrote: > >> >>"I shall of course be adding assault to your long list of charges..." > >> >Ways to upset a tria w/o getting outcast > >> > >> >3)Refuse to take them at their word. Ask for ID. No, celestial form > >> >isn't good enough - anyone can take celestial. > >> > >> Actually, that's not accurate -- if you see someone celestial in > >> the corporeal realm, you *know* what they are. Unless they're > >> something you've never seen before. ("What's that??" "Um. A newly > >> redeemed Bright Lilim. Don't let her bother you, fondling those > >> black wings...") > > > >Ohh, i belive that they are the choir that they say they are ( I suppose). > >I just don't have to believe that they are what they say they are. ("A > >triad? I don't recognize you guys. Maybe you're those Dominic groupies I > >'ve heard so much about. You can't fool me! > > Till the Seraph tells you so, celestially.... > > >> Princes might be exceptions. They certainly manifest as "human(oid)" > >> in Hell. > >Okay, append the opening statment to read "w/o being outcast > > Check errata. Outcasts get to go celestial, just like Renegades. Familiar w/ errata - that just means a goal of any of these pranks is NOT to GET outcast. > > >and without > >involving Demon Princes. Anyone using these ideas while dealing with a > >demon prince, and archangel, god, lucifer, or an NPC that really matters > >is obviously a raving Ofanite and should just be moving very fast away and > >laughing as the triad fails to catch up. > > If you've got a Prince posing as a member of a triad, you're toasty > anyway, so why bother... O;> Natch. Thus the disclaimer, only excepting the Ofanites, because if an Of uses them, she/he/it is probably nuts enough to get a kick from it, and thus not kill me for not warning them. ? > > >> Just remember: a Seraph of Judgment adds his Celestial Forces to > >> his Perception when invoking his resonance. Yes, this *does* boost > >> check digit. Yes, he *can* shake your hand or touch you on the shoulder > >> to boost his CD higher still. Yes, he *can* tell what you had for > >> breakfast the first time you ate corporeal form, and yes, he will > >> probably disapprove. > > > >Well, then I guess blatant grossness will do (the first breakfast > >was...euuhhh...snakes...{seraph at this point starts muttering things like > >"f**king Enosh I hate him."}) >lB > Well, there is that. If it's true. Totally reasonable Precaution. Another good one is listening to Dennis Leary so they pick up on what "evil" you may have come into contact with. The man has GOT to work for Kobal. But what the HEll? > > >And granted, they can nail the truth almost every time. All I'm saying > >(and saying loudly) is that I want validation that he succedded. > >Pretending to be terribly paranoid makes this easier. > > You want validation? Heh. You're not going to have to ask. Seraphim > in general tend to finish your sentences with the *whole* thing you > didn't say... The sequence goes - "did you succed?" "Yes." "How do I know you're not lieing?" "I do not lie." "I don't know that.(this is where true paranoia pays off - you probably LEGITAMTLY don't. Resonance schmsemance, dissonacne shcmsoance - I don't trust you)." (repeat often. See remark below regarding ease of interogation w/o those annoying vessels. Vessels forcibly removed if the need be.) > > >> I ADORE Seraphim of Judgment, really I do. > > > >i adore seraphim the way every cartoon mouse loves every cartoon cat. > > They often have Good Views. The danger for this type of character is Kobal really does notice (when you do it right). ANd damn but Prank sounds good...(COurse, that is a legitamite matter for an inquistion) > > >>> >4)[...] If they convict you, then say that > >> >she/he/it was your demonic contact - look how their evil powers made you > >> >suck up to them! > >> > >> See above for how Seraphim of Judgment can really put a crimp in > >> any tactic that involves falsehood. (Until they roll that 666!) > > > >mmmmmm...but I REALLY THINK that he made me do it...he just didn't know > >that he made me do it...ummmm...IM think i'll surrender to the nice > >servitors of judgement nowimsorry. > > Malakite of Judgment: "Wise." People always look at me funny when my malakim surrenders. They mention oaths and such - well, that whole not allowing evil to live one is most important, and the idea of slaying me is evil, thus if I surrender and kill the idea of slaying me, that idea being evil, I've done well. Yes I know Im going to Hell. Probably soon. Don't poke fun at the poor deluded Malakim, all right? > > >>>(Bitterness - the power tool of angry deserted servants > >>>of Creation everywhere}). Its okay - she/he/it works for Dominic, they > >>>deserve hell. > >> > >>You know, Dominic is hostile to Eli, but not vice versa... > > > >I know, but I like to carry that torch for Eli. > > Ah, but would Eli like that? Or would he tell you, "Loosen up, man. > Don't let the Man bother you. Have a snakey cake."? Ah, but Eli would tell me"..." oh wait a minute - we haven't seen that bugger since the 30's! Acch. > > >If we meet up again I'm hoping to become Angel of Freedom. Or something. > >Maybe just Angel of Freedom from that (should-be) God-damned Heavenly > >Inquisition. > > Just remember, it's not clear what happens to Word-sharing celestials > of varying power levels. Lilith might take exception to the first. And > might take interest in the second. (In our game, we think that Lilith > will take an interest in an NPC Seraph of Creation who wants the > Word of Sexual Openess (aka, people having healthy, non-repressed, > consensual, loving sexual relationships) -- and there's enough Word- > touching that Lilith drops in on the NPC when she (Lilith) is bored > and wants to bug Teri.) > I dig Lillith. > >>>5)Refuse to be a pain in the ass. This works great when they come back > >>>with all new roles ("That's right - I can issue search warrents [like this > >>>one], he has the right to shoot people [like you], and he's already wanted > >>>for murder. So do what we say.) so that you can't legitly ask them to > >>>leave. Nothing annoys them like a servant of Eli who congratulates them > >>>on doing SUCH A FINE JOB!! > >> > >>The other tactic is to tell them everything. All the truth. Anything > >>they want to know. In detail. Excruciating detail. Including the sex > >>scenes. Especially useful if you have a virgin Seraph. (Though I hear > >>they've been de-virgining them with Mercurians and Elohim of Judgment, > >>to take care of exactly this.) > > > >The wonderful thing is, it makes perfect sense for a servant of Eli to > >have sex after almost anything(well, before,after, or during) (IMHO, they > >do need to be lovers, not seducers though. Leaving a partner feeling used > >is for Andre, leaving a partner feeling euphoric makes Novalis' job > >easier!) > > 'Zactly. Lovers. Caring. Tenderness. Sharing. Selflessness! > > If they're of Creation and have known each other for longer than > an hour, they've been lovers at least once... > > >so no matter what the triad asks about the phrase "...and then we > >got naked.." and its explicit companions will come up. > >Offer to show them! (Song of light) > > Exactly! > > >Before you start, think > >of a legit reason to do the hologram - questions like "are you doing that > >to bug me?" then tune negative. > > Unless you're doing it to bug them -- they can catch a *lot*... "You're > doing that to bug us *and* show us everything..." > No youthink "hey, if i create this hologram they may not notice the bugs i just turned their seat into...that would be nice of me" Delusions are great.. Again, see the comment below regarding trial sans vessel. > >randomly spend esence. If they think you may be trying to run, twitch and > >spend apoint. Watch them draw weapons! > > "You know, Most Holy, it would just be easier to kill this vessel and > finish the interrogation upstairs." "I do see the merit in that statement, > Virtue. Shall we make a vote of it, Guardian?" > That would be why I only spend three points on my vessels. Ever. They get....icked...often. > >This one will probably be to outlandish for most people, but here it goes > >- > >be an inargueably awesome fount of angelic goodness. By Doms standards. > > They'll love you and ask if you want to serve Judgment... O;> hehehehehehe...oh yes. > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > Enosh Malakim of Creation In service to Caffiene (Yes, He IS an Archangel. Take my word.) MiVDC Founder - the KANCIP coaltion ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #744 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.