From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun May 3 10:12:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA32719 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:12:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA21066 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:13:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:13:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199805031513.KAA21066@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #747 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, May 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 747 In this digest: Re: IN> Song of Fruition Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words Re: IN> More (but different) random strangeness Re: IN> More (but different) random strangeness Re: SV: IN> Question about Motion (Celestial) Re: IN> Song of Fruition Re: SV: IN> Question about Motion (Celestial) Re: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat Re: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat Re: IN> More (but different) random strangeness Re: IN> More (but different) random strangeness Re: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat Re: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat Re: IN> Euthanasia in IN Re: IN> Dominic IN> IN: BB Fluff IN> Jordi's big move IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat IN> Re: IN- The Demon of Gun Control Re: IN> Dominic Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat IN> Stray Thought... Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat IN> Roleplay and the Free-Will issue IN> flaming mapboards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 13:08:22 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Fruition > If two recipients from either side mate on earth, what would their offspring > be like? It would be an angel of the same type as the parent that contributed the most amount of forces, or in the case of a Lilim, the Angelic equivelent of the other parent. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:35:30 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Dicey Words ArchBeth wrote: > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/FinalTrumpet/ > > "[...] The Final Trumpet has expanded writeups on Michael, Baal, > Kobal and Malphas; two new Superiors -- Khalid, Archangel of > Faith, and Magog, Demon Prince of Cruelty; [...]" [Ren and Stimpy on/] Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy! [/off R&S] [Church Choir on/] Gloria in excelsis Deo!!! [/off Choir] Your get the idea! a smiling [and waiting] tom t. , Cherub of Heaven [cadre] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 22:36:55 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> More (but different) random strangeness On Sat, 2 May 1998, Titus 3 11 wrote: > On Sat, 2 May 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > On Sat, 2 May 1998, Titus 3 11 wrote: > > > > > For those REALLY BAD NPCs or PCs, give them a note of dissonace. Let the > > > malakim (my favored choir) pick it up as an ignoble act (ie, that seraph > > > lied) hmmm..he lied...he has dissonance (confirmation is good, but > > > notreallyneeded). Kill said seraphs vessel. > > > > Why kill the vessel, just like that? > Because the seraph (especially one of Dominic) isn't clean. And I think > it is going to get worse. And as a malakim, I have the right (rite?) to > do so. > That's an IC explanation. OOC, it shows players to 1)avoid dissonance > (the malakim really are fanatics) and 2) not to abuse powers (hopefully). > And because I can't get to the celestial form. IMO, a malakite is -not- authorized to destroy the vessel of an angel with a single note of dissonance. If one did it, I think he/she would have to do some fance explaining, both to the AA of the killed angel and to his own one. YMMV. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 15:42:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> More (but different) random strangeness Iiiii can do fancy explaining. enosh On Sat, 2 May 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > On Sat, 2 May 1998, Titus 3 11 wrote: > > On Sat, 2 May 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > On Sat, 2 May 1998, Titus 3 11 wrote: > > > > > > > For those REALLY BAD NPCs or PCs, give them a note of dissonace. Let the > > > > malakim (my favored choir) pick it up as an ignoble act (ie, that seraph > > > > lied) hmmm..he lied...he has dissonance (confirmation is good, but > > > > notreallyneeded). Kill said seraphs vessel. > > > > > > Why kill the vessel, just like that? > > Because the seraph (especially one of Dominic) isn't clean. And I think > > it is going to get worse. And as a malakim, I have the right (rite?) to > > do so. > > That's an IC explanation. OOC, it shows players to 1)avoid dissonance > > (the malakim really are fanatics) and 2) not to abuse powers (hopefully). > > And because I can't get to the celestial form. > > IMO, a malakite is -not- authorized to destroy the vessel of an angel with > a single note of dissonance. If one did it, I think he/she would have to > do some fance explaining, both to the AA of the killed angel and to his > own one. YMMV. > > Anders Gabrielsson > anders@stp.ling.uu.se > The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! > "I kick arse for the Lord!" - Father McGruder > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 17:18:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: SV: IN> Question about Motion (Celestial) Actually, the biggest problem I've had with CelMotion is an uppity demon teleporting a Claymore mine into the coma ward of a hospital, containing about five people that a Cherub was attuned to... He really didn't have any defense against that, and I couldn't think of any reason that the demon wouldn't/couldn't do that (and disturbance was a pretty moot point after an earlier skirmish in the convalescent ward...). Joe - ------ Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. "To fall in love is to create a religion that has a fallible god."-- Jorge-Luis Borges How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 17:49:10 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Song of Fruition >Hi, > >I had a question about the Song of Fruition. > >If two recipients from either side mate on earth, what would their offspring >be like? > Theorectically the results would be identical whether the ritual was performed celestially or identically. The practical problems on the other hand, (the requirement that the parties be in celestial form, and the Symphonic noise the Essence and Force manipulation would cause), would discourage such a thing being done on Earth. (unless the Superior involved was too crazy to give a damm) >Would it be Grigori or a gifted creature of whatever form the angels were >in, or would it be celestial in a Natural growing human vessel? > See the notes on celestial reproduction in the PG's. >Also would it not be Dissonant for an Angel to to interbreed with humans, >since it's not in God's plan to interbreed? > The problem would not be dissonance as much as Judgement. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 16:55:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: SV: IN> Question about Motion (Celestial) On Sat, 2 May 1998, Raoul Duke wrote: > Actually, the biggest problem I've had with CelMotion is an uppity demon > teleporting a Claymore mine into the coma ward of a hospital, > containing about five people that a Cherub was attuned to... He really > didn't have any defense against that, and I couldn't think of any reason > that the demon wouldn't/couldn't do that (and disturbance was a pretty > moot point after an earlier skirmish in the convalescent ward...). > > Joe > ------ > Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. Big Brother's watching, and he has a huge survaillence budget. > "To fall in love is to create a religion that has a fallible god."-- > Jorge-Luis Borges > How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 18:42:51 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat At 06:18 PM 4/29/98 PDT, you wrote: > >I find for any significant combat (more than three or four >participants), a mapboard is essential for combat to be exciting or >colorful at all. There's no chance for players to role-play tactics or >skill in off-map combat. > > Not only do I disagree with this statememnt, but I disagree that what is happening on the map board IS roleplay rather than wargame. I do sometimes act out manuevers in full scale. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 18:44:34 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat At 06:20 PM 4/29/98 PDT, you wrote: >>>>>(David Edelstein - Sorry, you owe a favour or two to some of my >Lilim. >>That will teach you to have a Latte at Washington DC airport :-)<<< >> >> >>Well, was it a _good_ Latte at least? > >"Divine" :-) > >>-David (who hasn't actually been to Dulles, but I probably would take a >>Geas if I could find really GOOD coffee in Korea...) >> > >Ah. Washington DC Airport is called Dulles Airport. I'll have to >remember that. > >The other David > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > Actually there are two airports in the D.C.area, Dulles and National. Neither are truly in D.C., and they are on opposite sides of the city from one another. In Virginia, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:53:49 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat On Sat, 02 May 1998 18:42:51 -0400 Ron Carnegie writes: >At 06:18 PM 4/29/98 PDT, you wrote: > >> >>I find for any significant combat (more than three or four (Snip) >> >> >Not only do I disagree with this statememnt, but I disagree that what >is >happening on the map board IS roleplay rather than wargame. I do >sometimes>act out manuevers in full scale. That is why I prefer to run In Nomine as Live Action as opposed to tabletop. You get to move the players around, and people can appreciate such things as cover and distance (OK, you hide behind that pillar, and tell me how much you stick out). That, and the Lilim that dress the part... :) Brian Ward _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 04:29:26 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> More (but different) random strangeness >Choice one - a paranoid fanatical (for a Malakite) delusional servitor of >Eli who works for Gabriel? >or >Choice two - an Ofanite. Who just goes fast. It's annoying as hell (your >examples show why) but at least its PREDICTABLE. >Enosh > Even such an Ofanite will utter the words, "I know a short cut, trust me," and the rest of the players will either dive out of the car or roll to keep from losing their cookies. Some of the time, though, I just have the Ofanim in question open a door, "servant's entrance". Predictable though? I tend to think that the only words that can accurately predict Ofanim behavior are "unpredictable" or some other such thing that is given to things beyond the same old same old. The minute the other players start guessing what the OFanim is going to do, that Ofanim, IMC, would be getting disonance. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:38:38 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> More (but different) random strangeness >>Choice one - a paranoid fanatical (for a Malakite) delusional servitor of >>Eli who works for Gabriel? >>or >>Choice two - an Ofanite. Who just goes fast. It's annoying as hell (your >>examples show why) but at least its PREDICTABLE. >>Enosh >> >Even such an Ofanite will utter the words, "I know a short cut, trust me," >and the rest of the players will either dive out of the car or roll to keep >from losing their cookies. > >Some of the time, though, I just have the Ofanim in question open a door, >"servant's entrance". Predictable though? > >I tend to think that the only words that can accurately predict Ofanim >behavior are "unpredictable" or some other such thing that is given to >things beyond the same old same old. The minute the other players start >guessing what the OFanim is going to do, that Ofanim, IMC, would be getting >disonance. > That's unfair. There should be all sorts of Ofanim, predictable and unpredictable, with only one caveat- they can't bear to be inactive. An Ofanite can be as fickle as a kino wheel, as unpredictable as a flipping coin, or as predictable and unstoppable as a steamroller. In fact, that's given me a neat NPC idea- the Angel of Tanks, an Ofanite of Swords whose Celestial form strongly resembles a T-34 Soviet battle tank going at full tilt. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 19:43:23 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat At 06:53 PM 5/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > That, and the Lilim that dress the part... :) > >Brian Ward > >_____________________________________________________________________ >Where do you play? ;) Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 04:55:03 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat >>happening on the map board IS roleplay rather than wargame. I do >>sometimes>act out manuevers in full scale. > >That is why I prefer to run In Nomine as Live Action as opposed to >tabletop. You get to move the players around, and people can appreciate >such things as cover and distance (OK, you hide behind that pillar, and >tell me how much you stick out). > > That, and the Lilim that dress the part... :) > >Brian Ward I'm sorry, but there are some Lilim that I do not want to see dressing the part. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 20:15:32 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: IN> Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat You don't see the people I draw to my events. Otherwise, you would change your mind. The point being (to get back on topic). I prefer to stand people up (if there is room) and move them around in the combat, even in a table top game. IT helps a person decide, for example, that it might not be wise to fight back when they have 6 people standing over them, if they actually have 6 people standing over them... On Sat, 2 May 1998 04:55:03 -0800 Armand writes: >>>happening on the map board IS roleplay rather than wargame. I do >>>sometimes>act out manuevers in full scale. >> >>That is why I prefer to run In Nomine as Live Action as opposed to >>tabletop. You get to move the players around, and people can >appreciate >>such things as cover and distance (OK, you hide behind that pillar, >and >>tell me how much you stick out). >> >> That, and the Lilim that dress the part... :) >> >>Brian Ward > >I'm sorry, but there are some Lilim that I do not want to see dressing >the >part. > >Armand > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 00:14:42 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Euthanasia in IN Warning, yet another sesitive topic about to be discussed in relation to In Nomine, outspoken and easily offendable people turn away. Blandine-'The terminally ill and dying more often then not end up in Beleth's warped hands, I advocate for just the reason that it will stop her reason, but also, it will give them the bliss that I no longer can,' David-'Life is a test, including disease and affliction, the man who suffers all the way through will have really lived up to Stone," Dominic-'The Church disagrees with it, I myself? just as long as it was asked for, was it?' Eli-'They have lived, they have suffered, they will contribute no more, let them die,' Gabriel-'Prolonging of suffering is cruelty plain and simple, Church or no Church mercy killing must be endorsed,' Janus-'Eh? me, I just lifted this from the old guy cause he can't use it, sure, let him die if he wants to, I gotta go,' Jean-'Science exists to help humanity, to cure diseases, to heal the body, but if this can not be done, then science should help them die,' Jordi-'Man euthanizes their pets and farm animals when they are sick and dying, yet they wont admit it for themselves? bah! yet another example of Man's belief he is superior to animals!' Laurence-'The Church frowns on it and so do I, as long as the Church continues to do so, now be gone, I have more important hings to consider,' Marc-'Mercy Killing, well I can't say, although dying men and women are great to bargain with, and a quick death is usually the main thing they want,' Michael-'In War it is the Noble thing to put either a friend or foe out of their misery, why not in the rest of life?' Novalis-'If they have lived, are content with how they lived, then give them peace,' Yves-'Suffering rarely leads to Destiny by itself, unless lessons can be learned from pain, it will only gently push them to the Pit, but you can never no for sure wether or not it will,' These are the Major Archangels opinions IMO, DP's coming up shortly. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 00:12:50 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Dominic >He is really Kobal in disguise. >I know, I work for Kobal, that is Dominic, so I *always* recognize him, >presuming he wants to be, and he wants to be, so all his damned favorites >see how wonderful a joke he has pulled, even though some of us blab, >because we're the type no one listens to. Of course! We have never seen Dominic and Kobal in the same room together, then again we haven't seen half of heaven's heirchary in the same room. So Kobal is just about everybody. Anyway, does anyone run a game where Dominic is a good guy? It seems to me that he has been a victim of bad press, prehaps one of Micheal's saints works at SJG? Of course Heaven needs a police force, it lost one third of its populace in a rebellion. On a completly different note, no there is no free will in my game, it is all determined already, and this makes it better roleplaying. Fornutly nobody sweats the small stuff all the big stuff is already written. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 00:19:27 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: IN> IN: BB Fluff >> Big Brother's watching? Learn to become Invisible. > >Big Brother's watching, and he has a huge survaillence budget. Hey! You got a probelem with Big Brother huh? I sure don't, it is my tag-alone Little Brother watching! Orwell was wrong, rule by annoyance, not by fear. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 01:53:41 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: IN> Jordi's big move Jordi's next move. Jordi has been planning a big new change in the works ever since Nybbas came to power and created an infrastructure to spread his message. Jordi wants to have dolphins and chimps declared the equals of man. This will gain Jordi great power in all three realms as newly recognized souls pour in and support Jordi. Furthermore Jordi expects it to open the door to all living things to be declared equals. Basically Jordi hopes to succeed at this by creating a huge public advertisement campaign through the mass media, covert lobbying in the Seraphim Council, and numerous deals with other celestials. If Jordi succeeds it may become the most power archangel on the Council, but power is not what Jordi says it is after, instead it says it was equality for all living beings. If Jordi fails, however, he may lose what little political authority the Angel of Animals does have. Other Reactions: David views this as an affront to heaven and his work helping humans along. He will probably not directly confront Jordi, especially if Jordi looks to succeed as this may tear at the solidarity of heaven. Dominic sees this as the final straw for Jordi. Once Jordi's gamble is played out Dominic is sure to have the Angel declared apostate and attempt to throw the Kryio out of heaven. Dominic is positive that Jrodi will fail, even to the point of possibly ignore his resonance in favor of his pride. Janus is positive such a move will shake heaven and earth to the core and is cooperating with Jordi for that reason. Novalis is also working with Jordi since she hopes this change will end in declaring all plants as equal as well as animals. Such a change would go far to strengthen her word. Baal does not like such a major change in the War. The Demon of Animals is not nearly as able to capitalize on this change as Jordi is. In fact the demon of animals has been undergoing "conditioning" under the watchful eye of Asmodeus for the past 300 years. Malphas would love the change indeed. Such a schism would threaten to tear apart the heavens from the inside-out, and Malphas will go for that any day of the week. Nybbas is largely unaware of such a plot using his media network. If he were to be made aware he would be very, very angry. Lilith has made extensive deals with Jordi to work this through. Jordi has called in all of its debts owed for the occasion and Lilith has lent the angel many Geased servitors of hers. Other celestials not mentioned are either undecided (Archangels) or will probably be inconsequential (Demons). Where the players come in: It falls on the player angels to assist, largely unknowingly, Jordi in his endeavors. Between jobs the angels are introduced to a renegade djinn while the Malakim are away. The demon has a proposition to make, he accidentally attuned himself to the wrong person and has had a hard time clearing himself of the attunement. The Djinn, named Bogart, needs the angels to kill the person for him. In exchange the demon will give the angels a small, although important relic. For all purposed the demon is telling the truth. He is attuned to the man who he wants killed and will follow through on his part of the bargain. What the angels don't know is that the man they were hired to kill is none other than Peter Eickleman, associate tape man for Nightline and an anti-conservationist. Jordi has looked into the matter and seen that Peter is the only man with the motivation and power to stop his media campaign from being aired. Once the angels have agreed to help the Djinn (did I mention this was an important relic?) they head out to New York's Nightline studio. Sneaking in during the taping, the angel proceed to Peter's office. Once they get there the fire alarm goes off. Bogart has followed the angels to New York and has just set a fire in the basement. The players had better act quickly to dispatch Peter now. Meanwhile, upstairs the taping of Nightline is going well as the anchorman conducts an interview via sign langue with Cookies, the world's smartest chimp and a solider of Jordi. Once the fire alarm goes off, Cookies uses the Song of Light to created the illusion of a fire in the taping room. Immediately chaos breaks out and Cookies grabs the anchorman with which he is speaking and slings him over his shoulder, heading downstairs and outside. All of this is captured on film. Assuming Peter has been taken care off, Cookies becomes an international celebrity and is given the key to New York. The players also collect on Bogart's promise and get that McGruffin from him. Cookies brings to the public attention the intelligence of chimps and himself advocates in interviews more research into the intelligence of apes and dolphins. Being a very public figure, Cookies now has much diabolic and heavenly forces at play around him. One of the cherubim in the group is asked by his superior to watch over Cookies. Once the cherub attunes himself to Cookies the fun really starts. Baal has seen the impact of Jordi's move and so has Dominic. Both are sending squads into wreck Cookies. Baal ends up sending a Calabite, a Habbalite a Shedim and a Lilim. Dominic sends in a triad. Use whatever power levels and numbers feel comfortable to you, though. Wouldn't it be fun if both Baal's crew and the triad showed up at the same time? How about if they put aside their differences to try and take care of Cookies? Sure it would. Chances are each demon and angel has multiple vessels, all different, so you can alternate between subtle manipulation of the angels and out and out attempts on Cookies' life. The angels should look forward to a harrowing chase to the nearest friendly tether, never knowing what to expect. If the characters succeed in saving Cookies then Cookies gains even more popularity on Earth and people start to ask what makes the chimp different from them. Eventually the masses start to view chimps and dolphins as not to different from themselves and Heaven soon follows suit. Jordi wins, yeah. If Cookies is lost then so is Jordi's cause and most of his political power. Dominic tries to have Jordi's Archangel status stripped and comes very close. The player characters have just earned the hatred of the Angel of Animals. What do you think? - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:26:14 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat >>I find for any significant combat (more than three or four >>participants), a mapboard is essential for combat to be exciting or >>colorful at all. There's no chance for players to role-play tactics or >>skill in off-map combat. >> >Not only do I disagree with this statememnt, but I disagree that what is >happening on the map board IS roleplay rather than wargame. Bollocks. Run properly, mapboard combat is an extension of roleplaying. Just because you roll out the mapboard doesn't mean dialogue has to stop. In fact, using a map makes most "physical" endeavours more interesting - breaking into a top secret lab, or a car chase through the city. GMs that never use mapboards are one of three things - lazy (because they couldn't be bothered drawing maps), control freaks (because they want to know what a player is going to do with a prop before they allow a prop to be there), or pretentious and insecure (The "only nerds use dice" crowd). SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:38:09 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- The Demon of Gun Control Beth said: > >At 4:58 PM -0700 5/1/98, Graveyard Greg wrote: > >>Doesn't Gustav's Dictionary of Angels, from A to Z have a name for an >>Angel of Abortion? I can just see the responses to the forthcoming >>Angel and Demon of Abortion... > >p. 21 of aforementioned Dictionary. "Angel of Abortion [Kasdaye]" > >And that's it. Briggs' Encyclopaedia of Angels says Kasadya (aka Kasadye) was a (male) Fallen Angel of the Grigori class who taught the women of earth how to perform abortions. Whether this is related to the Grigori mating with humans isn't stated. SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 05:24:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Doubting Eric Subject: Re: IN> Dominic On Sun, 3 May 1998, Jesse wrote: > Anyway, does anyone run a game where Dominic is a good guy? It seems to me > that he has been a victim of bad press, prehaps one of Micheal's saints > works at SJG? Of course Heaven needs a police force, it lost one third of > its populace in a rebellion. Yes, as a matter of fact. Maya's "Fiat Justitia" game (*), as near as I've been able to tell, portrays Dominic in a /very/ good light. The good side of Judgment. Equity, even-handedness, and even mercy. This Dominic not only judged a Hellbound demon and found her worthy, but continued to support that demon up to and during her Redemption. And by picking through hints and snippets, there are signs of a much larger hand being lent by ol' Starry Eyes in the balance of justice. Of course, by picking through different hints and snippets, it looks like Novalis and Christopher are conspiring with Hell. Hm... Eric, Elohite of Orc. (Disclaimer: I play the Dominican. I may be biased. But that would be dissonant, so I may not be. 8| ) (*): Blatant plug - http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 20:42:35 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat > GMs that never use mapboards are one of three things - lazy (because > they couldn't be bothered drawing maps), control freaks (because they > want to know what a player is going to do with a prop before they allow > a prop to be there), or pretentious and insecure (The "only nerds use > dice" crowd). Or possibly just don't like 'em very much, and have players that just don't like 'em very much, and don't run enough combat scenes to warrant the effort. Just 'cos I don't bother with mapboard combat any more (tried it, didn't much care for it) doesn't make me a bad GM. By the way, check the combat section in _Feng_Shui_, a game that emphasizes action and combat, in which Robin Laws specifically preaches against using maps/ minatures in combat. And if you're gonna call Robbie Laws a bad Gm, well then you 'n' me is gonna hafta step outside (spit)... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia They may walk hand in hand Like lovers through the market square Selecting leathergoods, pretending that they just don't care They say all the boys are monsters, all the girls are whores SQUIRREL NUT ZIPPERS, "Plenty More" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 20:46:23 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> Stray Thought... G'day. Got a question here that occured to me in the shower tonight (I always do my creative thinking in the shower). If a human possessed by a Kyrio/Shedim gains the advantages of a vessel (no need to eat, immunity to poison etc), can this be negated by the possessing Celestial? Specifically, if a Shedim of Malphas (who completely kicks out the real owner of the body, just like a Kyrio) possesses you, can they chug-a-lug a bottle of Cerepax to cause an overdose? Or would they have to leave the body before the drug could begin to take effect? - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia They may walk hand in hand Like lovers through the market square Selecting leathergoods, pretending that they just don't care They say all the boys are monsters, all the girls are whores SQUIRREL NUT ZIPPERS, "Plenty More" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 08:08:38 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN Mapboard Combat At 11:26 PM 5/2/98 PDT, you wrote: > >GMs that never use mapboards are one of three things - lazy (because >they couldn't be bothered drawing maps), control freaks (because they >want to know what a player is going to do with a prop before they allow >a prop to be there), or pretentious and insecure (The "only nerds use >dice" crowd). > >SurturZ >Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > Well Bollocks right back at ya... 1. Maps are still necessary. The failure to use mapboard combat and figures has nothing to do with laziness. 2. Prop existance, I am confused? I have never heard of a GM asking how a prop is to be used, before stating it exists or not! How would that work? Typically a player asks if something is there, you tell them, and then they say what they intend to do with it! 3. Pretenious or insecure? Well maybe pretenious, but I will not play a role playing game that does not use dice. Mapboards are NOT necessary at all, and in my experience do not serve to sustain the feel of the genre. Maybe I should mention that I am a long time Call of Cthulu GM, which has affected my style in a number of ways. One of those is that I have become very mood oriented. (Call of Cthulu with out the proper mood is a waste of every ones time). I have used mapboards. My opinions have changed around on this, just like my feelings on how realistic or complicated a set of rules need be. Mapboards are useful to the lazy GM as they do make things a little more obvious to players and serve to end various arguments that may arise (i wasn't by the door, I was by the window!. As far as being more exciting however, never will you get me to believe that a mapboard combat is more exciting than a good descriptive GM with a collection of imaginitive and cooperating players. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:57:14 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: IN> Roleplay and the Free-Will issue At 12:12 AM -0400 05/03/1998, Jesse wrote: > > >On a completly different note, no there is no free will in my game, it is >all determined already, and this makes it better roleplaying. Fornutly >nobody sweats the small stuff all the big stuff is already written. > >-Jesse Unless the players are acting out in scripts, the deciding on that meta-issue itself is pretty much irrelevant on the role-play unless you're implementing that GM-finding in a way I haven't guessed. For my purposes the question of Free Will is still a mystery and the GM (me) is about as in the dark as the players. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 07:41:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> flaming mapboards On Sun, 3 May 1998, Ron Carnegie wrote: > At 11:26 PM 5/2/98 PDT, David Streeter wrote: > > >GMs that never use mapboards are one of three things - lazy... > > Mapboards are useful to the lazy GM.... Is anybody else amused? Check this list out: the topic of abortion comes up, everybody is worried, but we manage to avoid getting into a flame war about it. Meanwhile, the topic of using mapboards as a playing aid for combat is, while not yet into a flame war, threatening more so than the abortion topic did. One thing should be clear from the discussion of this: mapboards are potentially useful, but don't work for everybody. While both the use of a mapboard, and the avoidance of mapboard, could be through laziness (just like anything else can result from laziness), it's unfair to claim that it must be that way -- or from insecurity, or an inability to roleplay, or anything else "negative" -- for either opinion. My personal opinion is that mapboard combat is useful in the same way that illustrations are, or that _maps_ of buildings in the first place are. Humans think visually; sometimes a picture really is worth a thousand words, and a quick visual overview can much more quickly and unambiguously give you an idea of the situation than words. Words, yes, can do quite well, but they are by their nature sequential. IMO, when you are in a situation where the physical positions of things matter, and there area lot of them, it's much easier to keep track of what's going on when you have maps with counters. If one doesn't keep having to stop and try to remember where everything is, IMO it's easier to concentrate on playing your role and having your character react to the situation as he sees it. This isn't laziness, or eschewance or roleplaying, or anything else. On the flip side, I can understand where some would think that the mapboard detracts from the roleplaying. One reason might be similar to the reason that illustrations in a book can detract from the experience of reading the book. If the illustrations are bad, or otherwise different from the picture you have in your imagination, it might take something away from your internal picture. Any drawn maps on a mapboard are not going to live up to the "real thing" as one could construct in one's imagination, nor are static lead figures or counters or whatever going to live up to your image of your character. The figures standing around on the mapboard might "mundanify" the situation you are rolelaying. IMO, in a sufficiently complex situation mapboards (or "tactical maps" or whatever) add more than they detract. For others, they may detract more than they add. There isn't a hard and fast "true" answer to this. Do which you prefer, and keep in mind that there is probably nothing wrong with the people doing the other. People doing both are still "real" roleplayers, and they aren't playing the game "wrong" or any such nonsense like that. - -Rob ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #747 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.