From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu May 14 22:00:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA28612 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:00:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA03988 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 21:57:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:57:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199805150257.VAA03988@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #780 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 780 In this digest: Re: IN> Dis (Long) Re: IN> What's the best source of info... Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin (Re: What's the best source of info...) Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin (Re: What's the best source of info...) IN> Offing Superiors Re: IN> Defeating/Killing Superiors Re: IN> In Nomine Online Re: IN> In Nomine Online Re: IN> Offing Superiours Re: IN> Unofficial-but-oficially-illeagal stuff Re: IN> Combat Clarification IN> Saints Re: IN> In Nomine Online IN> my game last night (slight spoilers to night music) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:23:04 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Dis (Long) At 12:48 PM 5/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Erratum: > >The reminiscence about Nergal, Ialdabaoth, and Ahriman was >ascribed to Kobal. I meant Kronos. I like it better as Kobal, actually. Then one isn't sure if it's a joke... I like it. Very interesting. Any plans to develop it, like Dark Victory? -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:31:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> What's the best source of info... At 05:04 PM 5/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 9:50 AM +0100 5/14/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >>On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:14:21PM -0400, Pee Kitty wrote: >>> > would you want to use the Lilim or Djinn resonances? (You sense the >>> > Need...to kill you.) >>> >>> See K.K., Lilim of Dark Humor, on the INC, for an answer to that. :) >>> >>I saw it, and disagree. If you can be easily killed, the most you get is a >>Geas/1, which is not worth a Vessel/1, especially given that you'll be >>spending a while in Trauma. K.K. is funny, but not realistic. > >Actually, while K.K. *is* a munchkin, check her stats. She stays >in Trauma for 1 day. (Corporeal Forces: 1. Will: 12.) And she's not >necessarily easily killed -- Celestial Song of Motion and all that. >But even with a Geas/1 per death, she only needs to get killed 6 >times, in 12 days, and geeeeee, there's a Malakite with a Geas/6 on >him! > Doesn't this assume a fairly stupid Malakim? "Who is the demon that keeps showing and letting me kill her, grinning all the while?" Wouldn't someone, somewhere catch on to this trick eventually? >For the way it serves his Word (how much "vague Essence" *does* >a silly death generate?), and the prospect of running "The >Pirates of Penzance" with angels, Kobal could plausibly keep her >in vessels. > >Mind you, just because K.K. is a plausible legal character doesn't >mean any sane GM would want to accept her into their game... > >Still, the basic point is that if you're gonna die, getting even a >Geas/1 on your killer lets you do *soooo* many fun things later. >Especially if you have the CelSong of Affinity. > When KK looks for a need in the Malakim she's setting up. What if she doesn't get the Need to kill to her but say the Need to see the Forces of Hell driven into oblivion or the Need to spread Honor among humans or something similar? I thought the Need found was pretty random unless you took a penelty to the roll or did I miss something. I wasn't on the list when KK was being dicussed. Couldn't her resonance be blocked by say wearing really dark sunglasses or just shooting her from distance away where she couldn't make eye contact? With 1 Corporreal force, you could safely set your any sevants on her.... I'm pretty new to this game but this just seems to cheap to beleived and any lilm can pull it off just not as optimally as K.K. I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:32:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" At 3:44 PM -0500 5/14/98, Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: >> From: "Hart, Joanna" >> Generally it isn't enough of a threat, but a superior will tend to see a >> PC's action and assume that their own superior was directly behind it. > >Maybe Superiors suffer from the same "The scrubs can't have done it." >complex as PCs? Princes, in particular... >I would hope that mellenia-old Superiors, especially the more thoughtful >ones, would have more perspective. Don't tick off Yves or Jean... Or Kronos or Asmodeus. >Or just don't get caught doing it. This works for me for demons, but the >idea that Angels have to conceal their greatest deeds so that vengeful >DPs don't squick them is less palatable. Actually, they don't have to conceal the deeds. They just have to swap vessels, maybe vacation Upstairs for a few years, and then come back covertly. Or not even that, if the Prince *doesn't find out who did it*. If the PCs don't get Djinn-tagged (or even if they do, if their boss removes it), if they don't get spotted by the Prince, if they don't sign their names... Hey, they're 3-8 celestials. And there are *how* many billion humans for them to hide among? Not to mention other celestials? Now, if the PCs stand and hang around for the Prince to show up, it's evolution in action. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:12:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin (Re: What's the best source of info...) At 2:31 PM -0700 5/14/98, Kim Foster wrote: >At 05:04 PM 5/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >>At 9:50 AM +0100 5/14/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >>>On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:14:21PM -0400, Pee Kitty wrote: >>>>> (You sense the Need...to kill you.) >>>> >>>> See K.K., Lilim of Dark Humor, on the INC, for an answer to that. :) http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles -- go to the Rogue's Gallary, thence to the demons, etc. >>Actually, while K.K. *is* a munchkin, check her stats. She stays >>in Trauma for 1 day. (Corporeal Forces: 1. Will: 12.) And she's not >>necessarily easily killed -- Celestial Song of Motion and all that. >>But even with a Geas/1 per death, she only needs to get killed 6 >>times, in 12 days, and geeeeee, there's a Malakite with a Geas/6 on >>him! > >Doesn't this assume a fairly stupid Malakite? "Who is the demon that keeps >showing and letting me kill her, grinning all the while?" Wouldn't someone, >somewhere catch on to this trick eventually? So what does the Malakite do? Kill the demon who murmurs, "Okay, you owe me now?" or stand by and take dissonance? Catch-22. >>Mind you, just because K.K. is a plausible legal character doesn't >>mean any sane GM would want to accept her into their game... >> >>Still, the basic point is that if you're gonna die, getting even a >>Geas/1 on your killer lets you do *soooo* many fun things later. >>Especially if you have the CelSong of Affinity. > >When KK looks for a need in the Malakim she's setting up. What if she >doesn't get the Need to kill to her but say the Need to see the Forces of >Hell driven into oblivion or the Need to spread Honor among humans or >something similar? If she gets only a Need to *destroy* her, she tends to pout and have to leave the area. This happens after a while. She hates Destiny Servitors. She sometimes finds the Need to have her redeemed. Ick! > I thought the Need found was pretty random unless you >took a penelty to the roll or did I miss something. I wasn't on the list >when KK was being dicussed. K.K. is ooooold news. And with Perception 12, yes, she can take a penalty to her roll, and target specific needs. Often Obvious ones, if the Malakite is starting to swing. (K.K. is 1/2/6. 2/2, 4/4, 12/12. MUNCHKIN! Do Not Allow!) So, for an obvious need (-2), she's down to a 10, and can boost that back to a 12 with Essence. >Couldn't her resonance be blocked by say wearing really dark sunglasses Yup. That's why she has the CelSong of Motion, partly -- to get rid of those pesky things. O;> Or to get herself away from bad situations. >or >just shooting her from distance away where she couldn't make eye contact? >With 1 Corporreal force, you could safely set your any sevants on her.... Yup! You can do that. If you know who she is *this* time. "So the boss gave me this dog of a vessel -- woof, I say, woof!" (But she might ensnare your servant(s), too.) >I'm pretty new to this game but this just seems to cheap to beleived and any >lilm can pull it off just not as optimally as K.K. Heh heh heh. Yes. Be careful killing the little green floozies. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:47:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin (Re: What's the best source of info...) At 06:12 PM 5/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 2:31 PM -0700 5/14/98, Kim Foster wrote: >>At 05:04 PM 5/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >>>At 9:50 AM +0100 5/14/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >>>>On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:14:21PM -0400, Pee Kitty wrote: > >>>>>> (You sense the Need...to kill you.) >>>>> >>>>> See K.K., Lilim of Dark Humor, on the INC, for an answer to that. :) > >http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles -- go to the Rogue's >Gallary, thence to the demons, etc. > >>>Actually, while K.K. *is* a munchkin, check her stats. She stays >>>in Trauma for 1 day. (Corporeal Forces: 1. Will: 12.) And she's not >>>necessarily easily killed -- Celestial Song of Motion and all that. >>>But even with a Geas/1 per death, she only needs to get killed 6 >>>times, in 12 days, and geeeeee, there's a Malakite with a Geas/6 on >>>him! >> >>Doesn't this assume a fairly stupid Malakite? "Who is the demon that keeps >>showing and letting me kill her, grinning all the while?" Wouldn't someone, >>somewhere catch on to this trick eventually? > >So what does the Malakite do? Kill the demon who murmurs, "Okay, you >owe me now?" or stand by and take dissonance? Catch-22. Well, they could get someone else to kill them, servants or otherwise (Do not suffer an evil to live doesn't mean you have to whack it personally IMHO or that you have to do it -right that moment-) or suck up the dissonance and try to explain. Seems like that would be better than being beholden to a servant of hell for some unknown favor at some unknown time in the future. And geaa are a visible discord. Dissonace can be worked off or removed. How many Superiors want there Malakim bound by a lilm and if she's been pulling this stunt for a long time...... Personally, as a gm I'd been willing to not make the Malk suck up dissonace if he knew she was jerking 'em around like this and he was planning on doing something to her later. espeically if KK wasn't doing something "evil" at the time beside being really annoying. Malakim does equal stupid. They can be subtle if they wish to be and getting caught in a useless no win situation doesn't further your Superior's goals. > >>>Mind you, just because K.K. is a plausible legal character doesn't >>>mean any sane GM would want to accept her into their game... >>> >>>Still, the basic point is that if you're gonna die, getting even a >>>Geas/1 on your killer lets you do *soooo* many fun things later. >>>Especially if you have the CelSong of Affinity. >> >>When KK looks for a need in the Malakim she's setting up. What if she >>doesn't get the Need to kill to her but say the Need to see the Forces of >>Hell driven into oblivion or the Need to spread Honor among humans or >>something similar? > >If she gets only a Need to *destroy* her, she tends to pout and have >to leave the area. This happens after a while. She hates Destiny >Servitors. She sometimes finds the Need to have her redeemed. Ick! > >> I thought the Need found was pretty random unless you >>took a penelty to the roll or did I miss something. I wasn't on the list >>when KK was being dicussed. > >K.K. is ooooold news. And with Perception 12, yes, she can take a >penalty to her roll, and target specific needs. Often Obvious ones, >if the Malakite is starting to swing. > >(K.K. is 1/2/6. 2/2, 4/4, 12/12. MUNCHKIN! Do Not Allow!) > >So, for an obvious need (-2), she's down to a 10, and can boost that >back to a 12 with Essence. > >>Couldn't her resonance be blocked by say wearing really dark sunglasses > >Yup. That's why she has the CelSong of Motion, partly -- to get rid >of those pesky things. O;> Or to get herself away from bad situations. > >>or >>just shooting her from distance away where she couldn't make eye contact? >>With 1 Corporreal force, you could safely set your any sevants on her.... > >Yup! You can do that. If you know who she is *this* time. "So the >boss gave me this dog of a vessel -- woof, I say, woof!" (But she might >ensnare your servant(s), too.) > Well she's the dog the causes disturbance and has target painted on it and like staring contests. :D Seriously though, the Malakim Resonance makes for a great Demon detector and not just on a check digit of 6 for Bals. The (dis)honorable actions you can pick up can give you a MAJOR hint of who's who. >>I'm pretty new to this game but this just seems to cheap to beleived and any >>lilm can pull it off just not as optimally as K.K. > >Heh heh heh. Yes. Be careful killing the little green floozies. That is one of things about In Nomine that irks me. its way to easy to pull stuff like this and I have to wonder (for example) why isn't every Malakim bound down to every Lilm they every fought and looked in the eyes. Exxagerated, I know, but still a valid question I think. I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:23:09 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Offing Superiors >>>This is a big peeve. Explain to me how the PCs could enrage a vengeful enemy Superior and get away with it. Either they didn't hurt it enough to be *important* (it refuses to come after them personally, even if they scrag its agents) or they have a Superior who wants to kill them. If it ever catches them without another Superior to protect them, it squishes them.<<< If the Superior bothers to hunt them down personally....but every Superior has scads of lesser Servitors of other Superiors doing things to harrass and weaken it. If they personally hunted down everyone who stings them, they'd be spending all their time squashing small fry. That's what _their_ Servitors are for.... not to mention, there is the escalation principle: "If you go around personally hunting down and killing my Servitors, I'll do the same to yours." Most Superiors don't want to get into that kind of a personal one-on-one confrontation with another Superior. No doubt if a PC group comes face-to-face with a Superior they happen to have really pissed off in the past, it's time to invoke their own Superior, run, or die. But it does not make sense that a Superior will personally go after individual celestials, except in truly exceptional situations. >>>BTW - why does anyone confronting a Superior have to be a hotshot?<<< Because they are Superiors, and anyone who confronts a Superior should be pretty dang awesome themselves. I can't imagine where you get the idea that average PCs should be capable of taking on an Archangel or a Prince. If they can, it trivializes Superiors. This is like saying "Why can't a party of fantasy adventurers off a god?" (And yes, I know that's exactly what some munchkin players did in AD&D....hence the term "munchkin".) >>>But doesn't this trivialize anything they do? They *can't* hurt Sammy enough to get his personal attention? (Even though any servitor of his with 5 Essence and a graveyard can get his attention?<<< See above. Maybe they get his attention, enough for him to send a bunch of Servitors after them, but he _can't_ go chasing everyone who ticks him off; there are too many. Superiors are like gods in a fantasy campaign, and yes, adventurers often piss off rival gods by sacking their temples, slaying their followers, etc. And the god may get peeved enough to curse them or toss a lightning bolt at them or something....but rarely do you see gods showing up personally to toast everyone who annoys them (except in the Greek myths, and even then they usually don't outright kill people), yet no one complains that mortals are irrelevant in a fantasy campaign where gods exist. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 05:58:36 -0400 From: crossbyte@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Defeating/Killing Superiors >> Just to earn my role "Lucifer's advocate/1" here - what is so >terrible >> about strong and clever PCs being able to kill an AA or DP? > >Actually, it IS possible, according to canon, even. Especially Demons...I imagine this sort of thing is not only possible, but almost commonplace:mutiny, insurrection,etc. ...The wild truth, reeling but erect. - -G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy ____________________________ http://www.mrmark.com/forums/virtualireland/ http://www.angelfire.com/nj/RIMworld/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:09:48 -0500 From: "Scott Weber" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Online - ---------- > From: Jim Shumaker > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Online > Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 10:34 AM > > I believe that sjgames online policy for multiple user gaming > environment's such as a MOO, MUSH, MUD or MUX is there for a mere > protection of copyright. For reasons that are not kin to me MUSHes have > fallen into a definition of non-acceptable use of most fen material. This > includes a RPG system. Creating MUSHes about certain books (while done > all the time), is not purely legal. True. Same with movies. However, if somebody is liscensed to make an RPG, it's kind of self-destructive to not allow people to play it in a certain manner. > Granted, SJGames can allow users to > make MUSHes of their games, but in doing so they are giving up their > rights. This is correct, and I knew this from the outset... the thing is that they are not giving up their rights totally - especially if they outline the exact premise behind the allowance of players to create a MU* and post it on the webpage (and in the book). And what little they do sacrifice could very well be returned to them tenfold... let's face it - a MUSH is free advertising that markets itself directly to roleplayers. > I dont believe that their policy is dictated because they a) want to > create their own M**s, I really hope not... someone suggested that earlier, and if that's indeed the case, I know that I personally would be very, very upset at such an outrageous marketing ploy. That alone would probably be enough for me to just say, "stuff it," and not even bother with the game at all anymore, because to me, that's akin to walking into someone's house and breaking up their tabletop game because only the publishing company is allowed to host it. MUSHing tends to be vital to those of us small-towners who can't stir up the interest for local group tabletop or live-action roleplaying. > b) do not like online games or c) because of their > contract with In Nomine's original creators. This was the other suggestion that was brought up earlier... if this is the case, then I can understand completely. It'd be a kink that I would hope could be worked out later... it's kind of a downer. But that's the way the proverbial cookie crumbles, I suppose. > Steve Jackson Games has > always shown itself to be above most of the other gaming companies for the > range of freedom you have in the use of their products. Actually, I'll beg to differ here... as much as I admire SJG's products (Anybody remember the Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks from way back? I still HAVE those!), I've been thoroughly and incredibly impressed with the new policy adopted by TSR since they were bought by Wizards of the Coast. If you'd like a peek, just check out: http://www.tsr.com/faq/online_policy.html > They have also led the way out of most companies (gaming or otherwise) for > their presence in the computing world. I'll admit, as far as I've seen, SJG has the best-established presence on the web that I've seen... and you can even order jewelry! ;) > As for an Angel/Demon M***, do it. In Nomine is not the only Angel/Demon > game. I believe IN isnt even the first. I just might at that... right now, though, I'm currently finishing up the primary work on a Star Wars MUSH. The reason I brought this subject up was because I noticed I hadn't seen any In Nomine MU*s anywhere, and was thinking that when I had a little spare time, I might try my hand at that. But alas, perhaps it's not meant to be... P.S. - I was looking through the references in the back of the core book... if you haven't checked out Gustav Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels," do so - - it's incredible. Only drawback is that it's slightly vague, but it's probably the best authority you can find on the subject... a lot of it is similar to IN, but IN tends to deviate in some ways. If anybody does decide to ever start up a MUSH with this type of theme, that'd be the primary source of information to use. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:45:09 -0400 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Online Scott Weber wrote: > - -snip- s> > This is correct, and I knew this from the outset... the thing is that they > are not giving up their rights totally - especially if they outline the > exact premise behind the allowance of players to create a MU* and post it > on the webpage (and in the book). And what little they do sacrifice could > very well be returned to them tenfold... let's face it - a MUSH is free > advertising that markets itself directly to roleplayers. > This is similar to the logic espoused by the sundry X-Files fan sites shut down by 20th Century Fox for copyright infringement. In this case, it's even less compelling - if I can receive the "In Nomine experience" for free online, I am far less likely to spend a couple of hundred dollars on game books. A M** is not so much an adveretisement as it is an alternative. While buying the source material may enhance the M** experience, it's not actually required. - -snip- > > Actually, I'll beg to differ here... as much as I admire SJG's products > (Anybody remember the Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks from way back? I still > HAVE those!), I've been thoroughly and incredibly impressed with the new > policy adopted by TSR since they were bought by Wizards of the Coast. If > you'd like a peek, just check out: > http://www.tsr.com/faq/online_policy.html > While they don't explicitly forbid it, I suspect that a M** based on The Forgotten Realms or DragonLance would step on *someone's* legal toes, and a cease-and-desist request would be forthcoming. M**'s can (and often do) provide a "D&D-like" experience. That's because the AD&D "game" is not integrated with any particular "setting". This is not the case with In Nomine - the game rules and fictional environment are woven together. You probably won't be using the underlying game mechanics from IN in a M** environment - there are too many Boolean conditions for the average M** software. That means the only thing left, on average, is knocking off the game world, which is specifically the thing that SJG *must* dilligently protect from copyright infringement. - -snip- > > > As for an Angel/Demon M***, do it. In Nomine is not the only Angel/Demon > > game. I believe IN isnt even the first. > > I just might at that... right now, though, I'm currently finishing up the > primary work on a Star Wars MUSH. You're on equally shaky ground there, copyright wise. Hardly anyone ever gets sued over this sort of thing, but *I* would hate to be the one made an example of. - -- Mark McKenzie markadv@kinekom.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:59:03 -0700 From: Drake Subject: Re: IN> Offing Superiours > Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:11:32 -0500 (CDT) > From: Martin Leslie Leuschen > Subject: IN> Offing Superiours > > First, I wish to apologise for using the word "terrible" three times in a > two paragraph post. That was a terribly silly thing for me to do. I > feel terrible about it. Hopefully, it wasn't a terrible strain for the > nitpickers and anglishphiles on the list. ;^) > > > Date: Wed, 13 May 98 16:13 EDT > > From: Walter Milliken > > Subject: Re: IN> Quantifying Superiors > > > > >Just to earn my role "Lucifer's advocate/1" here - what is so terrible > > >about strong and clever PCs being able to kill an AA or DP? Everyone seems > > >to think it is so terrible. > > > > Because these are supposed to be people who've survived since ages ago, > > and they have plenty of enemies. Having J. Random PC Group walk up and > > blow away a Superior (even with a *lot* of preparation) just doesn't > > make sense in that context. Otherwise there'd be a *lot* more "churn" > > among the Princes of Hell. > > > > In other words, it breaks the Suspenders of Disbelief/6.... > > (Working up to Lucifer's Advocate/2) > > The standard fantasy settings have ancient dragons running around all over > the place, despite the fact that they tend to go around picking fights > with highly organized bipeds and sleep on a giant lure for greedy > agressive types. Retalition is never effective except in legend or if > PCs intevene. No one has ever complained in my hearing. > > Most RPGs do in fact assume the PCs are special. That they can kill > Fixandranthaxus the incredibly ancient and even more incredibly irritable > dragon despite the fact that thousands of others have tried and failed. > They can successfully infiltrate the Rouge Xenocidal Cidi Death fleet, > even though crack Space Patrol agents have failed. They can destroy the > One True Ring, get their tax forms filled out properly, or even topple > MicroSoft - they're the PCs, after all. They should be able to do the > important and cool things. You suspend disbelief a little to assume this > ragtag group is capable of outdoing the best of the best, but it's > perfectly in-genre, and usually a lot of fun. Yeah having PCs being able to do things that just aren't normally capable of being done is one of the biggest reasons people play RPGs.. to be something more then you are, to do things that aren't normally allowed, etc. Even in a game like IN where you play angels and demons, really doesn't matter when you get down to the basics of roleplaying. The concept is still there... You play a character that is something special, you travel around in a world, do what you want, rather it be some noble goal as helping others, or such an ignoble goal as taking over the world.. You fight against unopposable odds, when all seems lost, at the last moment, you finally over come your opposition and accomplish your mission. What does it matter if you are an Angel? Your goal could be to take out Saminga, Prince of Death.. that is an unopposable force.. you do much traveling, much work, etc, until you finally face down your foe after a long hard campaign.. all hope seems lost at the end.. when finally you somehow win against your opponent and beat Saminga. What is so wrong with that? The point of the game is to have fun after all.. if your PCs thing it would be fun to take out Saminga, and aren't munchkins, and have put forth a lot of effort and time and devotion to the task, why not allow them to try? Instead of simply saying Saminga destroys them, why not give them a chane to fight? Let the PCs have fun, or else you won't have any PCs and will be sitting alone in your room amoung all of your old, unused RPG books, contemplating your naval. > > Why is this kind of thinking wrong in IN? > > > > You *could* do it, of course, but you'd have to change the background to > > fit -- most DPs probably wouldn't survive more than a few decades, if > > ganging up on them were possible, and probably most AAs wouldn't outlast > > a century. I don't see why you would have to change the background any at all. > > (Actually, a more volotile set of DPs in Hell might be a good thing, plot > wise. More backstabbing and powermongering for PC demons.) > > Remeber that even if they're not invulnerable, DPs are very badass, and > very cautious. Consider how long Stalin might have stayed in power if he > were immortal, capable of ripping a Panzer division apart with his > bare hands, and had a secret sanctum he reformed at when killed... > > As for AAs, I don't see why they would have a high turnover rate, although > they might be bit more cautious as well. Right now, they can be killed > by other AAs and DPs, but it almost never happens, because the AAs don't > fight amonst themselves, and DPs are afraid of the consequences of offing > one. Similar constraints could apply to lesser celestial's actions. > > Or consider Superiors in the context of governments. One normal person > is theoretically capable of toppling a government, and large groups do > so often. This hasn't stopped some governments from lasting hundreds of > years. Yep and because of those reasons, it would keep most celestials from even thinking about attacking a Superior.. Sure you might be able to take him out, but what about the political mess.. all the aftermath.. revenge.. etc. > > > >*I* find it terrible that canon Superiors can squash any PC they can > > >reach. (And Superiors have awful long "arms".) > > > > Rule #1 of gaming (unless you're playing Amber...): there's *always* > > someone who can squash the PCs. > > I must update my rulebook. It had something silly about having fun it > that spot. :) Heh.. You know, its funny, in my rulebook it says the same thing about having fun.. Guess I must have gotten the roleplayer's rule book, and not the rules lawyers book eh? > > The general principle irks me as well, to be honest. Why must there > always be something capable of squashing the PCs? Can't they have an > enjoyable game without one? Why? Because some GMs do it to keep munchkin players down.. but if the players aren't munchkins, well then, its because the GM has a thing about keeping the players trival. > > > The trick is to avoid having this come up (at least in fact). > > In IN, the PCs have their collective noses rubbed in this fact every time > they interect with an AA or DP. Since the PCs and many NPCs can summon > these beings without a huge effort, that is quite some trick. > > > The thing to do when an enemy Superior shows up (at least in a bad mood) > > is *run away*.... > > Yes. > > This irks me. The PCs have absolutely no chance if they choose to stand up > to the Superior. None. No matter how buff they are. No matter how > well prepared and clever and numerous they are. No matter how righteous > they are. No chance. None. Smacks too much of real life. I think the PCs should have a very good chance to stand up to a Superior if they try and work hard at it. > > > Not doing so would constitute terminal stupidity, in my game. > > What I don't understand about your game is how the PCs survive the time > between the peeved Superior arriving and them getting away. Surely Baal > needs less than a round to slaughter every PC Celestial in his reach? >:) > > > Fortunately, Superiors have better things to do than run around swatting > > annoying PC midges, > > Doesn't this trivialize everything the PCs do? Yep very much so. > > > and in many cases may have better things to do with > > PCs than destroy them... turn them to *their* side, for example. > > That only works for some PCs, and some Superiors. If the PCs pull a > brilliant coup and enrage Saminga, what do you do? It stretches those > suspenders a mite if he doesn't come gunning for them. > > Just workin' on the role, > Martinl > > (Now I need someone else to argue this side, since Devil's Advocate/3 > requires arguing both sides...) > Amon-Nahashel "Drake", Malakite of War, in service to Laurence, and firm believer in PCs having the capability to do anything they want if they work hard at it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:29:14 -0400 From: crossbyte@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Unofficial-but-oficially-illeagal stuff >I believe that you came upon the old Choir of Angels, a relic from the >time that Derek Pearcy was still working on the game and putting out >updates for those of us who were not so patiently waiting... > >www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/choirs Actually, I know that's not the link, but I did check it out and is was a big help. Thanx! ...The wild truth, reeling but erect. - -G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy ____________________________ http://www.mrmark.com/forums/virtualireland/ http://www.angelfire.com/nj/RIMworld/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:43:11 -0400 From: crossbyte@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Combat Clarification > A >big = >ole celestial with a Body of 45 would take long time to take down >with = >conventional hand to hand fighting. That sound's right. after all, Jacob wrestled an angel for an entire night, and the fight ended when Jacob's hip was dislocated (Gen. 32:23-30)...now, I see why in RPG you want things done faster, of course However, in SW:RPG I had a charachter with 6D strength...(Chewbacca has 5D). I could (and did) break Stormtrooper necks with one punch, and THAT got boring. GMs, use your discretion. This is ROLE playing not ROLL playing. >f (Hey! that could be a great new choir The > >Befuddled Ones, the host with the least ; ok maybe not) Actually, it's not a bad idea. Angels' strength comes from their humility, and the demons fell because of pride. Therefore, the greatest in heaven are the least.... But if we can suspend physics for a game, we can suspend theology as well. ...The wild truth, reeling but erect. - -G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy ____________________________ http://www.mrmark.com/forums/virtualireland/ http://www.angelfire.com/nj/RIMworld/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:42:18 -0400 From: crossbyte@juno.com Subject: IN> Saints Hello all, I was skimming the archives again today and noticed a few fleeting references to Saints. I also noted the link on the resources page. Has anyone used this or similar information in their games? For instance, someone was asking aabout St. Bridgid (or Bridget) a few weeks ago. She was indeed a real person, in no way related to the Celtic goddess. But there are seveal accounts of Saints receiving honors through, talking to, or having other contact with the heavenly host. I'll hold to one example for now: St. John (Don) Bosco often walked in the poorer sections of town to administer the sacraments. Since he was politically unpopular, he was often attacked in these areas. On several occasions, owever, a large grey mastiff would appear, and eitherescort the Saint or drive away the attackers (Yes, he did physical damage) after the priest was safe, the dog, called Il Grigio (the Grey one) would disappear... The strange thing is this same dog appeared off and on over 30 Years. There are few dogs, virtually none of that size, that live that long. Anyway, I'd like to know what everyone thinks...using the stories of the Saints for role model Soldiers or insight into the celestial realm... Keep happy in He who is eternal! ...The wild truth, reeling but erect. - -G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy ____________________________ http://www.mrmark.com/forums/virtualireland/ http://www.angelfire.com/nj/RIMworld/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:50:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Online > MUSHing tends to be vital to those of us small-towners who can't stir > up the interest for local group tabletop or live-action roleplaying. I should point out that you don't need an In Nomine-specific MUSH in order to get together a world-spanning gaming group. There are two other formats which, so far as I know, SJ Games has no problem with (and I can't see where the would). The first is PBEM, or Play-By-E-Mail. In these games, the game is conducted as a series of E-mail messages between the GM and the players. Most of the gaming I do is in this format. It takes a little getting used to, and the games tend to run a little differently from "live" games, but the format has some advantages in addition to disadvantages. All you need to play this game is access to E-mail. The second is PBIRC. Here, you just go into a normal IRC chat room, and play online there. I have no experience with this format, so I can't say much about it. An In Nomine MUSH, as I understand it, would have the online environment tailored to be In Nomine specific. It would be a combination of a computer game and a RPG. This is where the need for licensing and all that to come in. I would suggest that if what you are looking for is a gaming group to play with who is not local to you, perhaps PBEM or PBIRC is really what you are looking for. In that case, it's just a bunch of people (virtually) getting together to play a RPG, much as people do in person. You don't need to have an online service specifically written for your online game, any more than you need your living room to be constructed and decorated specifically with In Nomine (or any other game) in mind in order to play a tabletop RPG. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 03:42:18 +0000 (GMT) From: "The blue eyes, the leather, some guys just like leather" Subject: IN> my game last night (slight spoilers to night music) wierd things happened in my game last night. 1. Chorus, meercurian of yves, is acting a little paranoid about marty the drummer. I say to him that he's acting as if he had the discord and just as I say ir he rolls infenal intervention. I had to give him the discord/1 He was using his resonance on Marty at the time so it was very apporopriate. However with a will of 5 it means he has to roll 4 or under or he feels someone is out to get him. Paranoid boy runs wild. 2. Vamariel, cherub of Eli, acts as the currier to take the recording of the band to the cd-pressing facillity. She ducks into the toilets and decides to use transubstiation to transform the tape into seaweed. I tell her to roll the dice to see how succesfult it is. Divine Intervention. She then persuades someone in the corridor to take the envelope to the pressingg room and Lauren ends up with an envelope with spools of seaweed. I reccon Kobal is watching. Starsurfer, seraphim of creation in service to destiny, angel of words ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #780 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.