From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 18 10:43:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01386 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 10:43:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA09030 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 10:23:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 10:23:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199805181523.KAA09030@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #783 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 783 In this digest: Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" Re: IN> Fluff-Quotable Celstial Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" Re: IN> Other Steve Jackson [off topic] Re: IN> IRC Re: IN> Tether Construction--Help Wanted! Re: IN> Servants of the Game Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin Re: IN> IRC Re: IN> IRC Re: IN> IRC Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" Re: IN> Saints Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) Re: IN> In Nomine Online Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" Re: IN> Saints ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 14:39:21 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" At 04:53 17/05/98 +0100, you wrote: > >On Fri, 15 May 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > >> If Superiors are not vast elemental forces, then how did one of them get >> the idea that he could beat God? > >Simple. Apply the principle, originally proposed by a member of the >Pro-Wimpy-Superior faction, that the PCs have a chance at anything they >like if they try hard enough. > >Corollary: the PCs can potentially challenge God. On their own. Armed with >a small fruit knife each. Or indeed between them. Having a chance at something doesn't equate to having a good chance ;) Now let's apply the principle proposed by a member of the superior-infallibility faction, that no superior can ever be affected by anything the PCs might ever be involved in. Corollary: Even with a brilliantly thought out plan, careful and lengthy organisation of diversions, full backup by at least one superior, access to the nastiest relics or mundane weaponry, and divine/ infernal intervention, the PCs still have no chance at even scuffing Baal's shoes unless he wanted them scuffed. And even if they did he'd just shrug it off without noticing. I really think the notion of 'impossible' doesn't belong in any angel's lexicon. They gotta have faith :) (Demons have to make do with bloodymindedness) >Ahem. I'll lend you my players some time: Rule #1 (ish) is that 15 Force >demons are never quite as hard as you thought they were going to be, >especially when badly outnumbered by PCs who are trying hard. > OK, I agree with this! It is a real test for the GM to make a single powerful demon challenge a group of PCs, which is why you have to cheat and use scads of soldiers, underlings and cunning plans ;) jo "In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing." - -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:14:04 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Fluff-Quotable Celstial > Heirin is a collection of Superior quotes, a non serious version > > >Andrealphus-'Look at that fine pair of-' Funny thing though is that he was probably pointing to some new toys of Dominic. (as drawn from Superior prefernces in artifacts and relics book.) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:37:48 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" On Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:39:21PM +0100, Jo Hart wrote: > Now let's apply the principle proposed by a member of the > superior-infallibility faction, that no superior can ever be affected by > anything the PCs might ever be involved in. > I'd like you to name this person and cite the post where they said it, because as far as I can determine, the only person who said this is you. (And I have looked far back in the list, to archive 775 in fact.) And in that post you qualified it as being without Superior intervention. > Corollary: Even with a brilliantly thought out plan, careful and lengthy > organisation of diversions, full backup by at least one superior, access to > the nastiest relics or mundane weaponry, and divine/ infernal intervention, > the PCs still have no chance at even scuffing Baal's shoes unless he wanted > them scuffed. And even if they did he'd just shrug it off without noticing. > But Baal is polite. So if you catch him in a good mood, you can ask him for a concert program, and even be given it. In any event, I think you're being needlessly pessimistic. Of course Lucifer can scuff Baal's shoes. > I really think the notion of 'impossible' doesn't belong in any angel's > lexicon. They gotta have faith :) Of course it's needed. Otherwise, how can they say "It's next to impossible"? > >Ahem. I'll lend you my players some time: Rule #1 (ish) is that 15 Force > >demons are never quite as hard as you thought they were going to be, > >especially when badly outnumbered by PCs who are trying hard. > > > OK, I agree with this! It is a real test for the GM to make a single > powerful demon challenge a group of PCs, That's what the Song of Corporeal Form is for. And 12 Will. And piles of other powers I'm too lazy to list at the moment. (I once compiled a list of attunements that were conceivably useful in combat. There are far too many of them.) It also depends on how hard the NPC is trying. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 17:14:51 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Other Steve Jackson [off topic] On Sun, 17 May 1998, Scott Weber wrote: > *blink* "Other" Steve Jackson??? Yep. English guy. Co-founder of Games Workshop, etc. To find out about him, web search 'White Dwarf', 'Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone', 'Allansia', 'Fighting Fantasy' or something of the sort. Which relates to In Nomine because... Um... I'll shut up then. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:28:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> IRC - ---Titus 3 11 wrote: > > Anyone on the list 1) have operator status on the #innomine channel? > and/or 2) have experience with the channel's history? Ie, past usage, > users,etc? > Thanks > Enosh > Malakite of Creation > Wishes he had a word > > > I think the ops are on the list...and I like the channel myself..I frequent it a lot... So, what are you waiting for? See you in the channel! Graveyard Greg - --Malakite of Creation who keeps an eye on Enosh _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:33:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Tether Construction--Help Wanted! - ---Simon Hailes wrote: > > > >Damn, I'm unrepentedly infernal, but if you need some help I'll be happy > to contribute, just mind there may be a few diabolical twists.... > > Simon, Forever Damned and loving it > > > > An angelic tether with infernal twists? Gotta love it... Gregarius, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:45:08 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Servants of the Game On Sat, May 16, 1998 at 08:07:44PM -0500, Titus 3 11 wrote: > Every demon will be recieveing fairly regular communications from their > immediate superior, and rare communications from their Prince (excluding > the Servant of the Game, whos talks to his boss once a month, minimum). > The Servant of the Game will get an audio recording from me of most of > those briefings to use as he wants. In game, this represents the > characters skill at information gathering. I presume you don't intend this to mean that the Game Servitor is going to be eavesdropping on other Princes' communications. I can see information coming from contacts, all right. But the question which should be noted is "How did the Game/his other contacts find out about this?", and "How reliable is the information?". Game Servitors should live in a constant atmosphere of paranoia. > The more time he spends in game "snooping" the more, and more > complete, recordings he gets. I might allow other characters similiar > bennies at some point, but in this game he is the most intrigue minded > character; he shines at it. It depends on how the snooping is resolved. I think snooping on briefings should also be justified in-character, and should be impossible for briefings by Princes. A Prince isn't going to brief you personally unless they need to. (If it ever happens that I get to eavesdrop on another Prince's discussions with a Servitor, my head will explode from wondering what sort of head-games they're trying to play with me.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:56:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin - ---Steve Jessop wrote: > Finally, where does Eli eat? > > Steve. > > Pardon the pun, but, "Wherever he wants." Gregarius, Malakite of Creation Unabashed plug for the IRC channel: #innomine. Where you want it. When you want it. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:12:30 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: Re: IN> IRC >Anyone on the list 1) have operator status on the #innomine channel? >and/or 2) have experience with the channel's history? Ie, past usage, >users,etc? Here here. There are three main ops on the channel, Grim88(thats me) Daphne(Nana Yaw Ofori on the list) and Drake(troublemaker....Amon something or other, as well as Drake, on the list), as well as numerous semi-regulars. The channel has been around a bit longer than the game has been realeased. It's a fairly low volumn channel, but the chat is good, and the games entertaining. We're always looking for new faces, so if you can connect to Efnet, give us a try. :) Ryan Beall aka: Grim88 Look for me in #innomine on Efnet rbeall@fdldotnet.com grim88@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~Grim88/index.html <---Follow the link to the "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. #innomine web page. Comedy is when you fall through an open sewer and die." - Mel Brooks ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:06:16 -0700 From: Drake Subject: Re: IN> IRC > Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:16:20 -0500 (CDT) > From: Titus 3 11 > Subject: IN> IRC > > Anyone on the list 1) have operator status on the #innomine channel? > and/or 2) have experience with the channel's history? Ie, past usage, > users,etc? > Thanks > Enosh > Malakite of Creation > Wishes he had a word > Yep, I'm an operator on #InNomine on Efnet, and have been there for over half a year now. Amon-Nahashel "Drake" Malakite of War in service to Laurence and Angel of blatant plugs "JOIN #INNOMINE ON EFNET" erm.. sorry bout that :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:22:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> IRC - ---Drake wrote: > Yep, I'm an operator on #InNomine on Efnet, and have been there for over > half a year now. > > Amon-Nahashel "Drake" Malakite of War in service to Laurence and Angel > of blatant plugs "JOIN #INNOMINE ON EFNET" Yes, and Drake is also trying to stage a rebellion of #innomine, so come in and FOIL HIS EFFORTS! :) This was brought to you by the Friends of Grim88 Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 18:52:52 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" At 16:37 17/05/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:39:21PM +0100, Jo Hart wrote: >> Now let's apply the principle proposed by a member of the >> superior-infallibility faction, that no superior can ever be affected by >> anything the PCs might ever be involved in. >> >I'd like you to name this person and cite the post where they said it, >because as far as I can determine, the only person who said this is you. Just because no-one specifically said it doesn't mean that it wasn't proposed as a principle ;) >> the PCs still have no chance at even scuffing Baal's shoes unless he wanted >> them scuffed. And even if they did he'd just shrug it off without noticing. >> >But Baal is polite. So if you catch him in a good mood, you can ask him >for a concert program, and even be given it. In any event, I think you're >being needlessly pessimistic. Yes, I was exaggerating to illustrate my point. The technical term is 'straw man.' > Of course Lucifer can scuff Baal's shoes. What a guy! Can he wash my socks whilst he is at it? >> I really think the notion of 'impossible' doesn't belong in any angel's >> lexicon. They gotta have faith :) > >Of course it's needed. Otherwise, how can they say "It's next to >impossible"? 'Not impossible' is a different concept, of which 'next to impossible' is just an extreme shade. It is diametrically opposed to 'impossible' if you think about it. Either something is impossible, or else it isn't. Could some PCs off a superior? If God is their co-pilot, and everything else went stunningly right for them and stunningly wrong for the opponent it might be possible IMO. I don't think anyone said it would be easy. That was all I had to say really. jo "In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing." - -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:08:37 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" On Sun, 17 May 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > Just because no-one specifically said it doesn't mean that it wasn't > proposed as a principle ;) I think it is a little unfair to claim that a given principle was 'proposed' (i.e. introduced into an argument) by The Other Side, without being able to produce any evidence to this effect in what they have said. > Either something is impossible, or else it isn't. Could some PCs off a > superior? If God is their co-pilot, and everything else went stunningly > right for them and stunningly wrong for the opponent it might be possible > IMO. I don't think anyone said it would be easy. My opinion, and I think Kevin's too, is that 'God is my co-pilot' is the only conditional that really matters. I like Superiors to be a 'quantum level' above the likes of PCs. For PCs to off a Superior, they need the direct help of some being at Superior power level. As usual, others may disagree, but I say that PCs need serious quantities of GM^H^H (ahem) Superior help to even damage a Superior. So it is possible with that assistance, but impossible without, and they just have to accept that, and blat something else instead. So maybe that does trivialise the PCs: 'You are smaller than Baal. Live with it!' To do otherwise trivialises the Superiors and in doing so (to my taste, except in a deliberate 'large fry' game) will reduce the fun. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:26:54 -0400 From: crossbyte@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Saints >>For instance, someone was asking about St. Bridgid (or Bridget) a few >>weeks ago. >>She was indeed a real person, in no way related to the Celtic >goddess. > >Not quite. The Abbess St. Bridgid was named for the Goddess >Bridgid/Bride. The >cult of St. Bridgid/Bride is recorded as having *many* parallels to >the >worship of the Goddess. (Read the section on St. Bride in the Carmina >Gaedelica, if you can get your hands on a copy; it's very >enlightening.) I don't think we're talking about the same person... In Catholic tradition and records, St. Brigid/Bride of Kildare was born (died?) in the year 525. The spiritual daughter of St. Patrick, she was so beautiful many mistankingly believed she was the Blessed Virgin in an apparition. She died at age 72, the same age as the Blessed Virgin Mary. Brigid is buried in the same grave as St. Patrick and St. Columbkille. Other than her name (which obviously came from the godess') I could find no similarities between tha goddess and the Saint. Especially since saints do not have "cults" and the fact she was a close follower of St. Patrick while he taught in Ireland is further proof that anything pagan would be far from St. Brigid...note that Patrick was hunted and hated by the pagan Irish.... BTW, What is the Carmina? ...The wild truth, reeling but erect. - -G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy ____________________________ http://www.mrmark.com/forums/virtualireland/ http:/listen.to/rimworld/ <>< _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:23:15 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin Kim Foster wrote: > > A post to this reminded me . The target of a Lilm gets a Will roll to resist > the Geas right? How does KK snag so many Celestials? Even Angels tend to > have pretty good Wills and can pump essence into it if nessecary? If you let them. I'm not sure I'd allow Celestials to put Essence into a Will roll if they didn't know they'd be asked for a Geas (which is likely, unless they know they're talking to a Lilim and know she's done them a favour). > Since the > level is based on how hard it is for the Lilm to fullfill, it doesn't seem > like this type of Geas woukld be to high in particular for a Lilm like KK > (only a day in Trauma and infinite vessels.) No, it's based on how difficult it would be for the *target*. The whole *point* is that it's easier for a Lilim than some random human, because of Celestial abilities and so on. Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew has moved: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ Entropy isn't what it used to be. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:30:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin At 10:23 PM 5/17/98 +0100, you wrote: >Kim Foster wrote: >> >> A post to this reminded me . The target of a Lilm gets a Will roll to resist >> the Geas right? How does KK snag so many Celestials? Even Angels tend to >> have pretty good Wills and can pump essence into it if nessecary? > >If you let them. I'm not sure I'd allow Celestials to put Essence into a >Will roll if they didn't know they'd be asked for a Geas (which is >likely, unless they know they're talking to a Lilim and know she's done >them a favour). I typuically assume you can spend Essence on any roll but opionions can differ. For Celestisal, since a Geas is Disocord I'd think they would be able to "feel" it. But thats just my opinion. But a celestial standing there muttering "you owe me one" as they're struck down I think would be good enough to let the target catch on regardless. > >> Since the >> level is based on how hard it is for the Lilm to fullfill, it doesn't seem >> like this type of Geas woukld be to high in particular for a Lilm like KK >> (only a day in Trauma and infinite vessels.) > >No, it's based on how difficult it would be for the *target*. The whole >*point* is that it's easier for a Lilim than some random human, because >of Celestial abilities and so on. > Whoops my mistake. But the point still holds its not that hard to kill to 1 corp, vessel 1 K.K. well, once you catch her.....Celestial Song of motion is fun... then again there are ways around that as well...... maybe this system is more balanced than I thought. I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:46:03 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) >I don't think we're talking about the same person... > >In Catholic tradition and records, St. Brigid/Bride of Kildare was born >(died?) in the year 525. The spiritual daughter of St. Patrick, she was >so beautiful many mistankingly believed she was the Blessed Virgin in an >apparition. She died at age 72, the same age as the Blessed Virgin Mary. >Brigid is buried in the same grave as St. Patrick and St. Columbkille. > >Other than her name (which obviously came from the godess') I could find >no similarities between tha goddess and the Saint. Especially since >saints do not have "cults" and the fact she was a close follower of St. >Patrick while he taught in Ireland is further proof that anything pagan >would be far from St. Brigid...note that Patrick was hunted and hated by >the pagan Irish.... Okay, here's the skinny. 1) Have you ever heard of the idea that missionary churches in celtic lands took the local statues of the earth goddess and make them part of the church building? This was to get the pagans to come and worship. At the time, all the services were conducted in Latin. I'm pretty sure that your average Celt was not fluent in what the good Father was saying. They just assumed that their goddess wouldn't get involved with anything wrong. 2) Then, you have to tack on to the idea that the church has taken pagan holidays and converted them to increase pagan attendance. If not, then please point to me the part of the Bible that refers to Jesus being born on the 25th of Dec. Remember, any attempt to gain a following, whether religious or political, is to take your opponents views. 3) Just look at the miracles ascribed to St. Brigette. Cross reference this with the powers of Brigid. Kinda a similar, huh? The church, as an organization, is about growth. Instead of taking the option of "if you can't beat them, join them"; the church makes the opposition their own. But hey, maybe I'm just some looney conspiracy theorist that sees men in dark clothing behind every good thing in the world.... Armand ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:43:23 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Online > > > > They were bought out before GW got really bad. > > *blink* "Other" Steve Jackson??? GW bad? Blood Bowl, and Warhammer 40,000 are in my top 3 games ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:52:43 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin On Sun, May 17, 1998 at 10:23:15PM +0100, Sam Kington wrote: > > A post to this reminded me . The target of a Lilm gets a Will roll to resist > > the Geas right? How does KK snag so many Celestials? Even Angels tend to > > have pretty good Wills and can pump essence into it if nessecary? > > If you let them. I'm not sure I'd allow Celestials to put Essence into a > Will roll if they didn't know they'd be asked for a Geas (which is > likely, unless they know they're talking to a Lilim and know she's done > them a favour). > The Will roll is made when the Geas is called in, not when the hook is formed. So of course they can be stacked to make a Geas/6, making it very difficult to resist. But they will certainly feel something changing when a Geas is invoked, and unless ignorant of the existence of such a thing (something extremely unlikely for Celestials) are quite likely to guess what it is. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:22:40 -0400 From: crossbyte@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) >>I don't think we're talking about the same person... >> >>In Catholic tradition and records, St. Brigid/Bride of Kildare was >born >>(died?) in the year 525. The spiritual daughter of St. Patrick, she >was >>so beautiful many mistankingly believed she was the Blessed Virgin in >an >>apparition. She died at age 72, the same age as the Blessed Virgin >Mary. >>Brigid is buried in the same grave as St. Patrick and St. >Columbkille. >> >>Other than her name (which obviously came from the godess') I could >find >>no similarities between tha goddess and the Saint. Especially since >>saints do not have "cults" and the fact she was a close follower of >St. >>Patrick while he taught in Ireland is further proof that anything >pagan >>would be far from St. Brigid...note that Patrick was hunted and hated >by >>the pagan Irish.... > >Okay, here's the skinny. > >1) Have you ever heard of the idea that missionary churches in >celtic >lands took the local statues of the earth goddess and make them part >of the >church building? This was to get the pagans to come and worship. At >the >time, all the services were conducted in Latin. I'm pretty sure that >your >average Celt was not fluent in what the good Father was saying. They >just >assumed that their goddess wouldn't get involved with anything wrong. No I hadn't heard it, but in a way I believe it (sort of). I do know that they spoke in the native tiunge as much as possible though when preaching....after all, the homily and readings were still ing english here, so they were in Gaelic in Ireland. >2) Then, you have to tack on to the idea that the church has taken >pagan >holidays and converted them to increase pagan attendance. If not, >then >please point to me the part of the Bible that refers to Jesus being >born on >the 25th of Dec. Remember, any attempt to gain a following, whether >religious or political, is to take your opponents views. No argument. But note that the MEANING of the holiday changed.... >3) Just look at the miracles ascribed to St. Brigette. Cross >reference >this with the powers of Brigid. Kinda a similar, huh? I actually have not studied either, but I guess they might match up...but remember that St. Brigid had no power; God worked through her. But of course, remember the Irish were a very superstitious people; just look at all the extra miricles and legends about St. Patrick! >The church, as an organization, is about growth. Instead of taking >the >option of "if you can't beat them, join them"; the church makes the >opposition their own. But hey, maybe I'm just some looney conspiracy >theorist that sees men in dark clothing behind every good thing in the >world.... Not exactly what I thought, but close. It seems the mindset is more "We know you're human, so keep your celebrations, but honor the One God instead of the idols" and teaching with motiffs that the local culture understands... ...The wild truth, reeling but erect. - -G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy ____________________________ http://www.mrmark.com/forums/virtualireland/ http:/listen.to/rimworld/ <>< _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:21:47 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" On Sun, 17 May 1998, Steve Jessop wrote: > So maybe that does trivialise the PCs: 'You are smaller than Baal. Live > with it!' To do otherwise trivialises the Superiors and in doing so (to my > taste, except in a deliberate 'large fry' game) will reduce the fun. IMO, wanting to off a Superior is somewhat akin to attacking a Star Destroyer with a Corellian frigate. It's just plain stupid, but you might get away with it -if- you have found a weakness that nobody knows about, plan very thoroughly, and have heaps of luck. It's still stupid, but not impossible. I certainly wouldn't let my players succeed just because they come up with a really great plan - they'd still have to be damn lucky. Like rolling an intervention or something. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:44:35 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) On Mon, May 18, 1998 at 07:22:40AM -0400, crossbyte@juno.com wrote: > No argument. But note that the MEANING of the holiday changed.... > Really? Can you specify the changes? > >3) Just look at the miracles ascribed to St. Brigette. Cross > >reference > >this with the powers of Brigid. Kinda a similar, huh? > > I actually have not studied either, but I guess they might match up...but > remember that St. Brigid had no power; God worked through her. In the particular incident that I remember from my schooldays, it was very much a miracle on demand, if it wasn't achieved through Brigid's power. The scenario was that she wanted land to build a church/convent. The local lord wouldn't give it to her. She asked could she have as much land as was covered by her cloak? The lord said fine. So when she put her cloak on the ground, it expanded, and continued expanding until it covered several acres of farmland. This is clearly a manifestation of godlike or Godlike power, and there is no indication that I remember that she prayed in order to achieve this effect, or that there was any preparation for it at all. And even if there was, it's a rather excessive action on God's part just in order to get land for a church. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:15:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" > IMO, wanting to off a Superior is somewhat akin to attacking a Star > Destroyer with a Corellian frigate. What really frightens me is I know what he means with those ship names... I*M*O, its a bit more like attacking the 2nd Death Star with an A-Wing. And remember, the only reason the attack on the first Death Star succeded was becuase the commander was too arrogant to send out fighters, only the fighters *directly under Darth Vaders command* scrambled to meet the rebels. God, do I actually know this stuff? gguuhhhh... Enosh Malakite of Creation Wishes he had a word ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:07:54 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Saints In a message dated 5/17/98 1:23:49 PM, crossbyte@juno.com writes: > >>>For instance, someone was asking about St. Bridgid (or Bridget) a few >>>weeks ago. >>>She was indeed a real person, in no way related to the Celtic >>goddess. >> >>Not quite. The Abbess St. Bridgid was named for the Goddess >>Bridgid/Bride. The >>cult of St. Bridgid/Bride is recorded as having *many* parallels to >>the >>worship of the Goddess. (Read the section on St. Bride in the Carmina >>Gaedelica, if you can get your hands on a copy; it's very >>enlightening.) > > >I don't think we're talking about the same person... > >In Catholic tradition and records, St. Brigid/Bride of Kildare was born >(died?) in the year 525. The spiritual daughter of St. Patrick, she was >so beautiful many mistakenly believed she was the Blessed Virgin in an >apparition. She died at age 72, the same age as the Blessed Virgin Mary. >Brigid is buried in the same grave as St. Patrick and St. Columbkille. > Yep, same person. Patroness of Ireland, Childbearing, and Midwives. Known as "The Milkmother of Christ" and "The Midwife of Mary." The legends say she was walking in the forest outside her Abbey, when she found herself miraculously transported to first century Palestine (Christmas Eve, Bethlehem, naturally) just in time to act as the Christ Child's midwife and wetnurse. (It seems to be an additional miracle that she was lactating at the time...) >Other than her name (which obviously came from the goddess') I could find >no similarities between the goddess and the Saint. Especially since >saints do not have "cults" and the fact she was a close follower of St. >Patrick while he taught in Ireland is further proof that anything pagan >would be far from St. Brigid...note that Patrick was hunted and hated by >the pagan Irish.... > The cults of the Saints (it's the technical theological term, honest) are the body of lore, tradition, and ceremony which are part of the Saint's baggage. For instance, Green Beer is part of the US cult of St. Patrick, and St. Joseph being the patron of adoptive parents is part of his cult. St. Bride's cult includes (as recorded in the Carmina Gaedelica...) young women dressing in bridal clothes, wearing crowns woven of wheat and singing hymns to the Saint. If I'm remembering correctly, her Saint's day is May 1st, also known as Beltane. There's more, but those are the two I can remember... >BTW, What is the Carmina? > Carmina Gaedelica, "Incantations of the Gaels," a book cataloging the worship practices of the northern (Island) Scottish peoples at about the turn of the century. I can neither remember the editor nor the ISBN, so I apologize > >...The wild truth, reeling but erect. >-G. K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy Mark (Anglo-Celt, defending his turf) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #783 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.