From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 19 11:09:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09467 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:09:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA02551 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:52:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:52:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199805191552.KAA02551@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #786 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 786 In this digest: Re: IN> Serious-Quotable Celstial IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) Re: Several IN Questions (was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... IN> Superior on a Stick Re: IN> Superior on a Stick Re: IN> Superior on a Stick (Not so Very Long....) Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin (Re: What's the best source of info...) Re: IN> Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior IN> Re: IN- Superior on a Stick IN> Exaggeration Re: IN> Superior on a Stick (Very Long....) IN> Oops! (Summoning Superiors) Re: IN> Superior on a Stick ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:05:25 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Serious-Quotable Celstial Were as before I was having some fun, now I am taking the opportunity to present a serious representation of how I believe a Superior would react to the question of say 'Why are you doing this?..' Blandine-'You see that dark tower over there?, the one with all the spooky lights and faintly heard screams and such? that is the domain of my former lover, now bitterest enemy Beleth, she is why I do this more then anything else, in the hope that one day she will redeem, and we can together make the Marches shine as does Heaven' David-'A man is not an ocean unto himself, he needs the help of other human beings, he needs to be strong, especially in a world where mercy is frugally given' Dominic-'Because without law and order there is only anarchy and chaos, because without justice there is injustice, because without sound judgment there is poor judgment, all the things that cannot be' Eli-'Doing what? oh the whole Archangel of Creation thingie, well it was a choice between this or a game tester for Nintendo, which reminds me, I've gotta try out Super Mario Bros 7 in just s sec' (sorry but that was really what he said!) Gabriel-'Because the fire burns within all of us, let it burn brightly, and you will shine like the sun!' Janus-'Change is good, change is necesarry, change brings new opportunities, and oh yeah, sometimes rules need to be broken, even by angels!' Jean-'Science can be the Saviour of Man and His World or His Damnation, I don't know about you but I'm a saving individual' Jordi-'Because God made the animals just like He made man, and therefore they must serve a purpose, see the Animal Kingdom, then tell me that what you humans have is better!' Laurence-'Are you dull or something? Lucifer is trying to subvert the whole Universe, you know what Existence under Lucifer as God would be like? no? read the next Stephen King then imagine yourself as a character in the story!' Marc-'Because if you want something, there is no reason why there can't be a set and honest way to get it!' Michael-'Because this is war pure and simple, its get them or they get you, you looking at that halberd, yeah, its seen some action in its time-' Novalis-'Because even though this is War it can end like that, and we, angels, demons, humans, animals, and of course the pretty roses can all live in peace' Yves-'Better to reach the heights then sink in to the depths' Andrealphus-'You want the censored or uncensored version, okay, censored it will be, because sex is so much more fun then strumming harps and reciting tiring poetry to some stuck up broad on her stupid balcony, oh yeah, the stuck up bit did have a double meaning-' Asmodeus-'Oh please don't waste my time, if you can't see why by now then this Game isn't for you' Baal-'You see this mini-gun? yeah, wouldn't it be lovely to use it on a bunch of Seraphim and watch there pristine bodies disintigrate like chalk?' Beleth-'See that icky tower over there, you know the one that looks like a creation of the Care Bears on happy drugs, that's where that icky dyke Blandine lives, yeah I was her girl once, when I was all "I'm so happy" and junk, let me tell you, a lilim dressed in Goth does a hell of a lot more for me now then she does!' Belial-'Get out of my way or take dip in the Lake of Fire' Haagenti-'Try this satay chicken, delicious, mm, now I'm in the mood for some chili, about a barrel full, you see, isn' this cool, eating all you want, when you want, and not worrying about anything more then what type of salsa you'll have with the potato chips?' Kobal-'He he, watch the latest episode of Spin City, where that guy got sued for being shot in the head? wasn't that just hilarious, don't you find crude and crass and demeaning humor that much more funnier then stupid knock knock jokes?' Kronos-'Better to reign in Hell then serve in heaven someone said, and I agree' Malphas-'A man is an island unto himself, and the more islands he rams in to the better' Nybbas-'Quotes, they're not in anymore, get with the times boyo, come back when you have a new idea for the movie that'll pound Titanic in to the ground' Saminga-'Killing is fun, here I'll show you-' Valefor-'Because if you want something why should silly things like price or ownership get in the way?' Vapula-'Technology can be used for so much fun, it really can, s why adhere to stupid ethics when you really can make your own bikini clad genie if you want!' Simon, Demon of Far too many Quotes "If it wasn't for the negative conotations that come with the name Lucifer would be the perfect archetype for the self," C.G. Jung ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:17:56 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) Okay, I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I can go on no longer without making a statement or three on the subject. (1) POWER LEVEL OF SUPERIORS First off, (and this is counter to what Beth has said is canon, I would like her word back on this one), I do NOT believe that a Superior is the incarnation of the aspect of the Symphony they hold as their Word. If this were so, some Celestials would be incarnated with Words inborn, and non-Wordborn Celestials could never aspire to a Word. Non-worded Celestials can gain Words, Worded Celestials may be stripped of those Words, and Words may be taken up again after a previous holder has passed on. These do not indicate that Celestials are incarnations of specific aspects of the Symphony; these -do- imply that Celestials take parts of the Symphony, attune themselves to them, promote those parts' importance in the whole, and draw strength, power and prestige from them. (There are two notable exceptions I know of to this, but those particular Superiors are incarnations of the Symphony in general, not of their Words specifically. The Superiors came first, the Words later.) Having said this, however, let us take a closer look at Superiors. Their power level clearly outstrips any PC- Barons and Masters blow in around the 15-18 Force range, and these mega-stomper Celestials have to say 'yes'm' and 'nossir' to their Superiors. Superiors know -all- Songs, possess -all- the Attunements they grant their own Servitors. Superiors create all sorts of artifacts on a whim- literally so, with Vapula- that could take a PC -years- to finish. Their power level overawes even the near-autosuccess Dukes and high Worded Servitors. A nine-Force PC, without assistance, should have absolutely no hope of doing more than annoying these beings. (2) YES, YOU -CAN- KILL A SUPERIOR... ... with help. If you throw enough 9-force troopers against a Superior, and that Superior sticks around to take the abuse, each one will nick away and nick away until the wounds become mortal. If you can get help from another Superior, or lay hands on a horrendously powerful, highly restricted artifact, your 9-Force foo fighter has a chance, a small one, but a chance. (3) THERE'S MORE TO IN THAN KILLING SUPERIORS YOU DON'T LIKE A lot more, in fact. You might say, just about everything. Remember, the canonical IN War is a cold war. Both sides are jockeying for position, but in general they favor stability. Better the devil you know, etc. With the scales so balanced, with neither side capable of more than minor victories without risking total defeat, situations which would lead to an epic Quest against the Forces of The Other Side are very few and far between. In fact, in many cases, killing a Superior won't just draw vengeance from the Other Side- you'll probably catch fire from your OWN Superiors as well for interfering in their plans. It's been pointed out that having Superiors be nigh-invulnerable to PCs makes those PCs look insignificant. I believe someone mentioned popcorn? Well, get used to it. Most creatures of -any- sort -are- popcorn, and a situation which would leave the Superiors vulnerable to any PC that comes along would make it impossible to maintain the influence they hold in the basic set-up- Heaven would turn into a gigantic committee of the whole, and Hell would drop straight into anarchy. As to the ease of Superior summoning, I suggest you do this: for every point of Essence the PC burns on a Summoning, -deduct- one from the check die for reaction. A busy Superior won't be pleased by getting nagged into showing up, and unless the summoner has something VERY good to show them, they will take out that displeasure on them, with interest. Furthermore, even when the Superior -is- summoned, the manner of manifestation may not be particularly helpful... and if the summoner is in deep trouble without a REALLY good reason to be rescued, they may just be out of luck. Superiors have their own goals, goals which are not limited to and often do not coincide with the goals of the PCs. So what's left? Striving against powerful non-Superiors, Servitors from the other side, possibly disloyal or antagonistic Servitors on your own side, furthering your Superior's Word among the humans, and doing your own thing in the meantime. There's powerful humans out there. There's Worded angels and demons out there. There's tons and tons and TONS of PC-level Celestials, all of whom will probably interfere somehow in your own plans. And the Superiors, who hand out rewards and administer punishments, can be bribed, cajoled, maybe even threatened, but not likely killed. SUMMARY (1) Superiors are not incarnations of specific aspects of the Symphony. (2) Superiors possess a power level and nature an order of magnitude above PCs. (3) Superiors can be killed, but it takes an amount of power individual PCs cannot field. (4) Situations in which Superiors can be killed without repraisals are few and far between. (5) There is a -lot- of other stuff in In Nomine besides killing Celestials. There, I've said my piece now. Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:51:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: Several IN Questions (was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... On Mon, 18 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Shedim Band Dissonance conditions. Do Shedim need to corrupt a host: > >-every 24 hours that they spend in the corporeal realm occupying hosts? > > I would rule this one. But only *one* host need be corrupted, so if > they hop around, they can do a little corruption there, a little here, > etc. They need not ride *one* host into the ground. Though many *wish* > to do so. Erm. Well, don't tell my players, but I'm not gonna inform them of that ruling. :) See, I've got a Shedite in the game who loves to hop hosts. All the time. Before the "Shedite cause disturbance" reversal-ruling, he would rarely stay 24 MINUTES in a host, much less 24 seconds. Why? Well, when the party needed to know something, instead of cumbersome questioning and such, the Will-11 Shedite would simply hop into every person in the room, seeing if each knew the fact he needed to know. He rarely got bounced. So I interpreted the rules as "You must corrupt any given host once every 24 hours"...which means he can't leave a host unless he corrupts it without getting Dissonance. Major corruption (serial killing, as York suggests) isn't something you can easily do, so the Shedite usually does a little minor corruption before moving on. This let me stop him from doing the "room scanning trick" everytime the party needed to know something. With the new "disturbance unless you touch for a while" rule, it becomes less of a threat, but it can still be done. People touch all the time; it hasn't proven to be very noticeable when he holds someone for 9 seconds. Actually, I'll reverse that...I'll uninterpret the rule and use your ruling, Beth. With the new "disturbance" rule, it may very well keep things okay. But if it doesn't, you're gonna be the first to know! :) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:52:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... On Mon, 18 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Undead have had their celestial forces *bound* to their bodies. > In effect, their celestial forces are also corporeal. They sneak > in the back door and are able to learn Celestial Songs. Okay, but why can Undead and Saints learn Ethereal Songs, then? :) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:55:18 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Superior on a Stick >>>B.3 Most of my comments make the most sense in an Epic campaign context. Many of them make no sense outside of one. If you don't play Epic - just ignore me, I have nothing to say in this message of interest to you.<<< I do play Epic. I simply do not equate "Epic" with "The PCs must be capable of directly taking on the most powerful beings in the universe and surviving." >>>That doesn't mean it is bad roleplaying to stay and face the enemy Superior, or necessarily make the PC doing so a "Hot Shot."<<< No, it makes the PC dead. Well roleplayed, perhaps, but dead. Fortunately In Nomine offers plenty of "escape valves" for such situations. >>>So Canonically, Superiors have all the power available to their Word. Easy to justify as truly Massive, and impossible to quantify. Luckily I'm not arguing Canon. ;)<<< As has been said before, you're free to do anything you want in your campaign. Even if I did quantity Superiors, though, I'd quantify them as being way out of any PC's league. (In fact, I do operate under the assumption that Superiors are finite beings -- they DO have limits, a Superior _is_ capable of running low on Essence or even being hurt, etc...but those limits are so huge than no PC group is going to single-handedly bring them down.) >>>It works if their greatest deeds are still not capable of shaking the foundations of the universe, at least not with a few dice rolls. *************************** B.3<<< An epic campaign does not require that the PCs be capable of shaking the foundations of the universe with a few dice rolls. >>>There is also the inconsistancy that a PC is of enough interest to his own Superior to summon It fairly often, but never very interesting to other Sups.<<< PCs may be interesting to other Superiors, just not worth the trouble of hunting down personally. Like I said before, if you happen to run across an enemy Superior, you're probably dead unless you run fast. >>>No. But they should have enough power to attract the attention of Superiors. They can talk to Superiors. They can *summon* Superiors. But their actions will never enrage one unless they deliberatley try?<<< Sure they will. But that doesn't mean they are the only ones enraging the Superior, or that enraged Superiors drop everything to hunt down the persons responsible. Superiors are BUSY, and they have LOTS of enemies. Sure, the PCs might do something that pisses off Asmodeus so severely he tells his legions of flunkies "Triple the normal reward for bringing those miscreants in..." But Asmodeus isn't about to drop all his myriad other chores to personally hunt down someone who ticked him off. That's not an epic, campaign-spanning bad guy, that's a petulant bruiser with big stats and more temper than brains. Think about how MANY people Asmodeus is angry at and wants brought in... >>>Maybe this makes more sense with an example: The players are Servitors of Yves. They do many wonderful and great things to lead people to their Destinies and away from their Fates, foiling many important Demon plots along the way. (Remember point B.3) Now all Servitors of Yves can't be doing this well, or the War would be over.<<< Assuming that demons of Kronos aren't equally busy and successful elsewhere...and assuming that other Archangels are also holding their ground on their respective fronts. >>>Kronos will undoubtedly be pissed. He will try to stop them. They succeed in surviving numerous attacks by K.'s pawns. What does he do now? What prevents him from scouting thier residence out, popping in, soulkilling the lot, and leaving again before anyone can react to the disturbance?<<< 1. He's busy. (See above.) 2. If he does that, Yves retaliates (maybe not by soulkilling a bunch of Servitors of Fate, since that's not Yves' style, but he will find a way to make it less productive for Kronos to go around taking such a personal interest in Yves' Servitors). 3. If Kronos establishes that he would do a thing like this, Laurence watches the next group of angels that starts pissing Kronos off, and lays a trap.... >>>Assuming there's a rational reason, replace the Superior in question with Sam. or Belial What keeps *them* in check?<<< Same as the above. >>>I don't ask that PCs be able to kill Sups with vegetable peelers, but I ask that they be able to do things that the Sups care about passionately.<<< I'm not arguing otherwise. >>>In any case, usually they aren't able to call these being up on the phone, and the beings in question are sharply limited in some ways. What limits IN Superiors? Perhaps I am missing something important that makes the PCs more than pawns doing things that Sup could do with a wave of Its hand if It cared.<<< Because it has many, many, many things to do. >>>Flippant reply: If you play a game of international intrigue, being ambushed by machinegunners as you leave your house is a possiblity the PC will have to deal with. More importantly, if the PC is clever and talented, this is not insurmountable.<<< It is insurmountable if the GM says "The next day, you walk out of your house, and a dozen men with machine guns open up on you... Yes, you're quite dead." This is an entirely realistic scenario, but not one that would keep many players in the game. >>>Serious answer: Right. The PCs are small fry. Let's rub their noses in it some more by pointing out that they have a decent chance, mechanically, to physically summon the Superior that is delegating their greatest deeds to his own small fry servitors.<<< Yes, the PCs are small fry compared to a Superior. If you have a fundamental problem with that concept in an RPG, then I'm not sure how you gravitated towards In Nomine in the first place, but in a game featuring God, Lucifer, and all their Archangels and Princes, it seems strange to me that you object to the PCs not being in the same league. >>>But Baal is still around. Impressive, isn't it? 0;)<<< Yes, it proves that a horde of Malakim jumping on him will, at best, kill his vessel and leave lots of dead Malakim, thus inflicting more damage to the Host than to Hell. Hence Archangels don't normally allow their Malakim to go around jumping Demon Princes. >>>Certainly there are public figures alive today and in history who survived large numbers of people who wanted to off them. (Stalin. S. Rushdie. Most Monarchs... )<<< Spurious comparison. It was more a matter of luck and circumstances that kept any of them alive, since if the Ayatollah decided he _really, really_ wanted Rushdie dead, no matter what the international consequences, he could ensure it was done. Ditto anyone else. Superiors aren't killed because there doesn't normally exist anyone but other Superiors who are capable of killing them. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 05:54:11 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Superior on a Stick At 19:36 18/05/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Kronos will undoubtedly be pissed. He will try to stop them. >They succeed in surviving numerous attacks by K.'s pawns. What does he >do now? What prevents him from scouting thier residence out, popping in, >soulkilling the lot, and leaving again before anyone can react to the >disturbance? Assuming there's a rational reason, replace the Superior in >question with Sam. or Belial What keeps *them* in check? > I don't think it is a case of 'what keeps them in check' so much as 'who else do the PCs have to deal with before the superior decides that only personal attention can possibly solve this little bugbear (the PCs)?' I'll run through this using the same example. The PCs, agents of Destiny, have struck some very telling blows against Fate. If they have been actively opposing Fate then this will mean that they have begun by foiling the plans of individual demons. The very first thing that happens when a demon has screwed up on anything is that it will try to cover its back and not let its seniors find out. Failing this, it will try to deal with the matter itself so that at least when its senior demons do find out, it will be able to say 'Ah yes, but here are their heads and wing-feathers!' It may try to recruit some acquaintances to help, if taking out the PCs is likely to be reward-worthy, or if it can pretend that the PCs are really threatening other demon's plans too.. even if they aren't. Now, assuming this all fails and our demon gets out of trauma and has the unhappy experience of being debriefed personally by its loving superior. The demon was incompetent, and the superior may or may not get snitty. In any case, it should have some higher ranking demon who is responsible for activity in its word in that locale. Perhaps a knight or even a baron. The next thing that happens is that higher ranking demon gets a personal audience (or a personal letter) asking what the hell is going on and making it clear that the ranking demon must deal with the incompetent underling/s AND the angels who ruined the previous scheme. After all, what is the point of having a full hierarchy if you end up having to do everything yourself? (Lilith is the only exception here, but if your PCs piss her off they can at least relax in the knowledge that she is the weakest DP and get sharpening those fruit knives :) ). So now the PCs have a meaner, nastier demon with more resources that has been ordered to make sure they never present any problems again, and it has the full (willing or unwilling) co-operation of whichever other demon/s they first tangled with, unless they judiciously soulkilled them. The knight or baron will know that its own neck is on the line and will hunt them down viciously, with Cunning Plans, including staking out their mortal friends, using a team of Shedim with the celestial song of charm (jump into one of the PCs, even just for a moment, and get all the relevant memories and contacts). As for the superior. It will shrug and get on with whatever was happening on the other side of the world, and assume its underlings will deal with this problem. It may choose to check up on this occasionally, depending on how much of a micromanager it is, and if it gets summoned _again_ to deal with the same PCs will start to wonder why its own underlings are so damned incompetent. But carry on for long enough and they'll get as much of its personal attention as they can handle. (This carries on. If the knight fails miserably, the superior will throw a tantrum and order the baron to.. sort things out! Each time, the demon in charge gets nastier, more powerful, has more servants and underlings and has different vessels) With Kronos it is a little different. If he sees that any of the PCs have an impressive fate, he'll want to bring them to it and may get personally involved a little sooner. But hopefully if they work for Yves, he will have provided for such a contingency (but possibly not. You never can tell with angels of destiny...) All IMO. jo (ps. When I mentioned straw man debating techniques, did I somehow forget to mention that most people consider them to be really really scummy? ;) ) "In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing." - -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:28:36 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Superior on a Stick (Not so Very Long....) I'm just snipping the whole thing. We have all been following the argument, and probably, like me, read the afforementioned post. Here's the summary that I came away with: A. For the post to have relevancy to anyone's game, the game should be a more epic game. B. Superior "off-ability" is based on a ratio of appearances; how often any superior messes with the group. Answering to point A, I have to fall on other epics. Say, Star Wars. How many of the Rebel Alliance actually had contact with the emperor? Luke, maybe Leia before he started universe conquering. Does this number include Wedge Antilles, Yavin survivor and destroyer of the second Death Star? No. Han Solo and Chewbacca, smugglers extraordinaire who flew the Kessel Run in record time, nope. Just because something is epic, doesn't mean that the main characters have to go off to kill the head of the opposition. Now, point B: I understand how you might equate access with killability, but I don't think that summoning a superior falls in the same category. You, me, and my 12 year-old cousin could all write a letter to the president of the US. Odds are, my letter is going to end up in the shredder with a neat little form letter to be sent in response. I would wager that your letter might get the same response. However, my cousin has a small chance. Why? Look at this as a PR type issue. He comes and talks to a little girl who is concerned for the environment, and looks like a hero. By your logic, though, because my cousin has a greater chance at "summoning" the president; she is also capable of sending him to his final seconds. I just don't see the connection. Nor do I see how making a superior into a tangeable goal makes the game any more exciting. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 05:19:23 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin (Re: What's the best source of info...) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > them start saying, "No, I'm not going to kill you, you're making it > too easy," all the *other* demons start pretending to be her. Vicious > Cycle! Ah-HA! At last, the 1999 Cycle is revealed! I forsee an Angel of Playtesting and a Demon of Rules Lawyers... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:20:43 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior >From: David Edelstein > >> If the Superior bothers to hunt them down personally....but every >Superior >> has scads of lesser Servitors of other Superiors doing things to harrass >> and weaken it. If they personally hunted down everyone who stings them, >> they'd be spending all their time squashing small fry. > > This trivializes everything the PCs do. It only works if >their greatest deeds are average or sub-par<<< > >It works if their greatest deeds are still not capable of shaking the >foundations of the universe, at least not with a few dice rolls. I daresay >if a party of PCs sets out with the _goal_ of pissing off a Superior so >badly that he comes after them personally, they could do it.... but your >whole argument seems to be predicated on the assumption that PCs should >have unlimited power to change the universe, and should in fact potentially >be the most powerful beings in that universe, or else they are >"trivialized". I find that a rather odd proposition, since I can't think of >any RPG offhand where it's expected that PCs should be at the top of the >cosmic pecking order. Even in games like Champions or Primal Order or Mage >where PCs are usually among the most potent beings in the campaign >universe, I've never seen players complain that their characters were being >"trivialized" because there were far more potent, essentially unkillable, >beings out there. This is because most /players/ of a new RPG will not be very familiar with the game world, and it is much easier to begin play with inexperienced, not-very-knowledgeable characters than as important people tied deeply into the fabric of society. Even in games where the characters are at the top of the power scale (Ars Magica comes to mind), you will notice that they are separate from regular society. This is mostly a matter of tradition and market logic, and there is no intrinsic reason why you cannot have PCs who are powerful enough to substantially reshape the fabric of the game world. (I actually prefer to GM PCs this powerful, since players tend to be more willing to play PCs who make commitments and tie themselves into a gameworld when they believe the PCs will have the abillity to live up to their pledges.) >>>>What stops "Superior Ambush?" I.e. the angry Superior has a Servitor >summon him in front of the PCs, squicks them, then leaves?<<< > >Flippant answer: what stops a PC in any game from being ambushed by a bunch >of thugs with machine guns (or whatever equivalently lethal alternative >exists) as he leaves his house in the morning? Dramatic license and the >fact that just because in the real world, anyone who annoys the Powers That >Be in a serious manner would indeed be squashed doesn't mean that should be >the case in any RPG. Depending on your style of gaming, it can be very important that there exist a reason why the thugs with machine guns don't show up. My own game has a very naturalistic style -- the absence of solid reasons why the goon squads don't show is a logical hole characters (as opposed to players) could notice. (I am running in a non-dramatic style because I want to allow for questions of theodicy and Providence to flow from the PCs' experiences. This kind of requires that as few genre conventions as possible be adopted.) >But a more serious answer: same as I gave earlier -- Superiors don't have >the time or inclination to personally attend to the destruction of everyone >who annoys them. According to the straight rules, summoning a superior takes two rounds. If you start summoning your superior the round after your opponent calls his, then there's a round where you are alone with a cosmic being who doesn't like you. Do you die? If ordinary celestials are so much dust in the face of the power of the archangels and demon princes, then the answer is necessarily yes. If the aa/dp doesn't kill the PCs, then the next round the PCs will summon someone who /can/ stand up to them. Best to eliminate the problem before it comes up. This turns any fight into a question of who can call their superior first. Even if PCs and NPCs are circumspect about summoning superiors, this still means that archangels and demon princes will very likely be sommoned at the climax of the adventure. This is bad, both in literary terms and in gaming terms, because it removes the possibility of consequential action from the PCs at the very moment of the most important decisions. If the answer is even sometimes no, then the princes and powerful PCs are comparable. The appropriate comparison might be Wayne Gretsky and me, but it is still definitely not zeros versus infinity. I personally don't see anything wrong with the idea that even a Demon Prince would be worried by the idea of facing a gang of 15-Force angels. It does require that angels and demons be bumped up in power, so that they can compete effectively with the Princes, but it doesn't do violence to the genre to make angels and demons powerful. >That's contradictory. If a bunch of PC-level celestials could "probably" >kill (meaning destroy permanently, not just kill a vessel) Baal if they >gang up on him, then DPs would be dying constantly, since there's no >shortage of Malakim willing to hurl themselves at a diabolical Superior if >a few of them dying means the Superior will be offed. It might be a little >harder to find demons willing to make kamikaze attacks on Archangels, but >it could still be done. It's trivially easy to avoid the suicide-squad problem: do the same thing that big shots IRL do -- travel with bodyguards. If the flights of Malakim attack, all the prince has to do is have enough guards to cover his retreat back to Hell. (It's actually easier to guard a superior than a President, since they can teleport all the way back to their citadels if necessary.) >>>>Let's christen this "Large Fry" IN. I havn't ever played that way, but >I can see it being an interesting world to explore.<<< > >It would be, just as playing Superiors would be interesting. But it's a >vastly different setting than canonical In Nomine. It's not canon, but it sure isn't "vastly different." It means there is more turnover in Hell's political structures, and that archangels and demon princes travel with entourages, and that they don't show on Earth quite as often. That's about it. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:33:34 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Superior on a Stick >From: Jo Hart >(Lilith is the only exception here, but if your PCs piss her off they can >at least relax in the knowledge that she is the weakest DP and get >sharpening those fruit knives :) ). What gave you the idea Lilith was the weakest DP? Isn't her word freedom? Doesn't she have the geases of an incredible number of celestials? Doesn't that mean she has their goodies in her fist? If a Prince's strength is based on a word, then hasn't Lilith made incredible gains in the 20th century alone? Eastern Europe freed. Soviet Union collapsed. (more) Equal rights for women. Civil rights. Human rights. Lilith kicks ass. End of rant. Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire (secretly lusting after Lilith) "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:06:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Exaggeration >From: David Edelstein >Subject: IN> "I'm off to Squick Baal Luv - Back fer Dinner!" > >>>>Now let's apply the principle proposed by a member of the >superior-infallibility faction, that no superior can ever be affected by >anything the PCs might ever be involved in.<<< > > >Hmm. Who said that? I must have missed that message. > >- -David (who doesn't even remember anyone using "infallible" to describe >Superiors) > >>>>Just because no-one specifically said it doesn't mean that it wasn't >proposed as a principle ;)<<< > > >Jo, Jo, Jo....shame on you. It was _not_ proposed as a principle. Argue >against straw men if you like, but don't try to ascribe them to anything >but your own imagination. >- -David In Jo's defense, this was in a response to a post that extrapolated "PCs should be able, with great effort in an epic campaign, be able to accomplish Great Things" (Changing the world, killing Sups, etc.) to "The PCs should be able to take out God with a single fruit knife." Exaggeration is heady stuff, and tends to beget more of the same. Also in Jo's defense, before this thread, when both you and her Editorness Beth admitted that such things were possible, I had a very similar impression, roughly "The PCs can attract Superior attention, but they can't scuff their boots unless the Superior allows it." I stand corrected now. Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:10:53 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Superior on a Stick (Very Long....) In a message dated 5/18/98 4:46:11 PM, martinl@rice.edu writes: I only want to respond to one chunk of this line. There is a repeated question of "What keeps the Superiors in check?" The simple answer is: It's a *cold* war. Instead of seeing Superiors as interventionist Gods, I see the Superiors as spymasters, well-known to the other side, and whose death will result in the Big Red Button (TM) being pushed. (Armageddon, Global Thermonuclear Warfare, what's the difference?) The flip side of this is that the characters are highly trusted operatives. If they become known, it's easier to watch them and see what they do than go in and wipe them out. Even Saminga is (IMHO) willing to watch and learn from the characters' actions, rather than just killing their vessels. In an Epic campaign, when the characters arrange for the death of a Superior, they'd better be prepared for the entire thing to come crashing down as the Cold War heats up. Armageddon, it has such a lovely ring to it.... Mark (See ya at Har Megiddo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:16:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Oops! (Summoning Superiors) I havn't got the Digest full of angry corrections yet, so I'll correct myself: "Martin, you evil munchkin idiot, summoning Superiors besides your own or ones you are working for is -10, not -5! Go slap Kibal with a fish." I will also point out that this does not make such things impossible. Getiing a 5-7 Base + modifier is not unreasonable for many Superiors, although often difficult, add in 9-12 Essence, (9* is min for a "full" Celestial PC, many will be able to scrape together more from extra forces, reliquaries, etc.) and the chance is back to 4-11. (I assume that frequency mods do not apply here.) Thus a single resourceful PC can summon a Sup who's personal attention he could not get by, say, destroying that Sup's tether. Correct? [* Don't ask about Impudites of Vapula...] Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:34:53 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Superior on a Stick In a message dated 5/18/98 9:07:28 PM, jhart@btinternet.com writes: > using a team of Shedim with the celestial song of charm (jump into >one of the PCs, even just for a moment, and get all the relevant memories >and contacts). If the PC's are Angels, this won't work... Mark (Just a friendly reminder...) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #786 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.