From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 19 12:49:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA24920 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:49:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA05225 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:41:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:41:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199805191741.MAA05225@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #787 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 787 In this digest: Re: Several IN Questions (was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... Re: IN> Re: IN- Superior on a Stick Re: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) IN> Playtesting! (Re: Several IN Questions) Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... IN> When To Summon, When They Appear (Re: Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior) Re: IN> Re: IN- Superior on a Stick Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin (Re: What's the best source of info...) Re: IN> Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior Re: IN> Saints Re: IN> Saints Re: Several IN Questions (was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... IN> Bright Victory (long) Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear (Re: Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior) Soldiers and songs (Was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know...) Re: Several IN Questions (was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... Re: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:51:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: Several IN Questions (was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [I asked:] >>While we're at it: can a Balseraph use its resonance to convince someone >>of the truth? > >Yes. The Balseraph takes some "fact," incorporates the TRUTH of that >fact into his personal symphony (whether the fact is true or not, >objectively), and projects it out. Which means that if someone dis- >believes even a true resonance-projection, the Bal gets dissonant. >(If the CD was a 6 to resist, that is.) While I hadn't realized it at the time, this interpretation makes it possible for a Balseraph of Kronos to take the Seraph resonance and not earn dissonance for using its native resonance. All it has to do is be careful to B-resonate only true statements -- and the S-resonance makes it pretty easy to identify those, not to mention discovering those Truths that will herd mortals toward their Fates. An embarrassingly useless ability suddenly becomes quite effective... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:22:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Superior on a Stick On Tue, 19 May 1998, Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: > What gave you the idea Lilith was the weakest DP? The rules say Lilith is the weakest DP because she has no Principality and no permanent Servitors. Her Word may be powerful, but she lacks the ready Essence and cheap servants the other Princes have. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:30:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) At 9:17 PM -0500 5/18/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >Okay, I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I can go on no longer >without making a statement or three on the subject. > >(1) POWER LEVEL OF SUPERIORS > >First off, (and this is counter to what Beth has said is canon, I would like >her word back on this one), I do NOT believe that a Superior is the >incarnation of the aspect of the Symphony they hold as their Word. If this >were so, some Celestials would be incarnated with Words inborn, and >non-Wordborn Celestials could never aspire to a Word. They may not be born with it, but once they are bound to a Word, it is a part of them. I *think* that once they become Superiors, they become almost an avatar of that theme. It's something that they develop, though -- they voluntarily (?) merge themselves into something greater than themselves (though maybe not self-aware? they're the self aware ones). They *become* their Word incarnate. In return, they sacrifice some of their freedom of choice and of perspective. Andrealphus *does* see everything in metaphors of flesh and sensation. Gabriel *cannot* refuse to burn. (That seems to be a potential theme in IN -- a loss of a certain amount of Free Will for Power. A voluntary surrender to "something greater" in exchange for glory. A forsaking of everything you ever were, in exchange for Free Will above all. Maybe the Lilim's TANSTAAFL is applicable in more metaphoric ways. Hm. The Lilim of TANSTAAFL...) >(2) YES, YOU -CAN- KILL A SUPERIOR... >(3) THERE'S MORE TO IN THAN KILLING SUPERIORS YOU DON'T LIKE What he said. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:35:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Playtesting! (Re: Several IN Questions) At 10:51 PM -0400 5/18/98, Pee Kitty wrote: >On Mon, 18 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> >Shedim Band Dissonance conditions. Do Shedim need to corrupt a host: >> >-every 24 hours that they spend in the corporeal realm occupying hosts? >> >> I would rule this one. But only *one* host need be corrupted, so if >> they hop around, they can do a little corruption there, a little here, >> etc. They need not ride *one* host into the ground. Though many *wish* >> to do so. [...] >Actually, I'll reverse that...I'll uninterpret the rule and use your >ruling, Beth. With the new "disturbance" rule, it may very well keep >things okay. But if it doesn't, you're gonna be the first to know! :) Okay! Sounds good to me. (*Very* good, actually. I am as subject to brainfry as the next celestial. Infernal Interventions and all that. O;>) It is quite true that if Shedim can bodyhop without time/disturbance limitations, they *do* need some kind of counter, and the notion that a Shedite *must* leave its host in *worse* condition makes a nice parallel to the Kyriotate dissonance conditions. (And, just as a comment, anyone trying to hold onto *me* for 9 seconds without a good excuse would probably get twitched off. I'm not a very "touchy" sort of person. (I virtual hug, and have gotten okay with hugging relatives, but I avoid handshakes where I can, etc.)) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:36:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... At 10:52 PM -0400 5/18/98, Pee Kitty wrote: >On Mon, 18 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Undead have had their celestial forces *bound* to their bodies. >> In effect, their celestial forces are also corporeal. They sneak >> in the back door and are able to learn Celestial Songs. > >Okay, but why can Undead and Saints learn Ethereal Songs, then? :) Hey, once you get the Celestial, you can just schluck up everything inbetween! Nyah! O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:00:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear (Re: Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior) At 9:20 AM -0400 5/19/98, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Even if PCs and NPCs are circumspect about summoning superiors, this >still means that archangels and demon princes will very likely be >sommoned at the climax of the adventure. This is bad, both in literary >terms and in gaming terms, because it removes the possibility of >consequential action from the PCs at the very moment of the most >important decisions. Okay, Feast Of Blades SPOILER. In the grand finale, well... We didn't get to the *grand* finale. With the aid of a Kyriotate and Ofanite of Lightning, we snuck into the enemy stronghold, and into the secret passages the GM ruled were there (as if there *wouldn't* be, considering...). We hung around a while -- but kept ourselves secret -- and we were there *long* before the ritual was to have started. We cooked up a Cunning Plan. NPCs showed up and were mostly avoided and eaves- dropped on. Our Cunning Plan worked. The Evil Mastermind was caused to drop the McGuffin, the Windy Eth-Motioned it to the Ofanite, and the Ofanite did the Ofanite of Lightning trick through the wiring (with a few exits along the way and re-entries) and got to the Lightning Tether. Then the Windy Strike Team we'd called (much earlier) showed up and we ran like the proverbial bats out of Hell. Mind you, the only casualties of that one were the Brat Pack (who chose to hang around and shoot at the combat 'copter the Windys had stolen). That *includes* the Evil Mastermind... (Um. Maybe we should have called a Boss.) And then there was an acquaintance who was bragging about how his former Outcast had managed to call Michael to the scene during the Grand Finale, when *his* gaming group did Feast of Blades. Which means that there are times when the grand finale is something that one doesn't *need* to summon a Superior for. Superiors are busy busy busy. Call them too much, and they get annoyed. There are other ways to keep someone alive... Sometimes a Superior will "play" with opposition for a round or two. This may be because of overconfidence/sadism (just about any Prince), *trying* to lure another Superior to the spot to have a *real* spat with (why kill Servitors when you might be able to strip a few Forces off an Enemy?), giving them a sporting chance (maaaaaybe Baal, Michael, and Laurence [for sufficiently honorable opponents]; Novalis...), because of a *deal* with that particular enemy ("Okay, you helped me here; in return, I'll give the next three encounters with your Servitors a chance to call for you"), because you *want* to make a deal with that enemy ("Corner the Lilim till she yells for Mommy, and then she pays the summoning-geas and I can have a chat with Lilith")... Or because a Superior can only deal with one or two gnats per round. If someone is sufficiently heroic, one of their partners (possibly a sensible one, overlooked while hiding beneath something) may get that next round to do the summoning. (Though it *does* take 2 rounds to summon -- if you can *stop* the person before they finish, well, that danger is averted.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:06:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Superior on a Stick At 7:33 AM -0700 5/19/98, Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: >>From: Jo Hart >>(Lilith is the only exception here, but if your PCs piss her off they >can >>at least relax in the knowledge that she is the weakest DP and get >>sharpening those fruit knives :) ). >What gave you the idea Lilith was the weakest DP? Isn't her word >freedom? Doesn't she have the geases of an incredible number of >celestials? Doesn't that mean she has their goodies in her fist? Shhhhhhhh... They don't need to know that. They don't need to worry that ticking off Lilith will mean they can never relax again, wondering if the chief of police, the mayor, the owner of their apartments... has accepted a "little favor" in the past. They don't need to wonder where all these utterly unwarrented attacks are coming from. And they certainly don't need to worry that she'll decide to set every atom in their clothing "free" while they're talking to someone important. ("What, you didn't think that was restrictive clothing? Silly me. Put it back together? That's not *my* Word, cutie.") >If a Prince's strength is based on a word, then hasn't Lilith made >incredible gains in the 20th century alone? Eastern Europe freed. >Soviet Union collapsed. (more) Equal rights for women. Civil rights. >Human rights. Lilith kicks ass. SHHHHH! Don't tell anyone! It's a *secret*! She's no threat. Really. She's weak. She's unimportant. She's disorganized. She's just a little broker of deals and a Lilim factory. Really. Lilith is weak and insignificant. Just ask her. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:15:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> K.K. the Lilim Munchkin (Re: What's the best source of info...) At 3:18 PM -0700 5/18/98, Kim Foster wrote: >At 12:36 PM 5/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >>At 3:47 PM -0700 5/14/98, Kim Foster wrote: >>>At 06:12 PM 5/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>> (You sense the Need...to kill you.) >>>>>>>> See K.K., Lilim of Dark Humor, on the INC, [...] >>>>http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles >>>>So what does the Malakite do? Kill the demon who murmurs, "Okay, you >>>>owe me now?" or stand by and take dissonance? Catch-22. >>> >>>Well, they could get someone else to kill them, servants or otherwise (Do >>>not suffer an evil to live doesn't mean you have to whack it personally IMHO >>>or that you have to do it -right that moment-) >> >>True enough. On the other hand... What if she sees the Need for her >>to be dead, and does the deed herself. Woops. > >Is the Need for her to be dead, for the Malakim to kill her? It depends. Sometimes it's one, sometimes the other. Some she can work with, some she has to run away from. Likewise, someone who wants to plonk her in trauma (which Malakim settle for when they can't get into a soul-killing fight, I believe) can be dealt with, but someone whose Need is *only* to soul-kill her has to be avoided. (Or not. She's a pretty scary celestial-combat person, and may have fried a few young Malakim in her day... Fighting/1, Will 12, Perception 12. What do *you* think her celestial damage is? And her celestial Dodge?) Of course, if someone has *several* Needs, in ascending order... (Get K.K. dead = Geas/1. Kill K.K. myself = Geas/2. Soul-Kill K.K. = Geas/6...) She has that obscene Perception, she grabs the Need she wants. I *did* mention that K.K. was a munchkin that no sane GM would allow as a PC, right? That she was intended as an evil NPC to terrorize the PCs, if allowed at all? >>>or suck up the dissonance and try to explain. >> >>K.K. and Kobal think this is amusing too. O;> > >"Where does this stain on your soul come from, my servant?" >"One guess..." >*rubs temple* "Oh, her...." Exactly. >>>Well she's the dog the causes disturbance and has target painted on it and >>>like staring contests. :D > >>Hee hee hee! Yes, well. She only causes disturbances if she harms something >>(and with Strength 2, this is pretty rare...), > >Or spends Essence, or uses Songs..... Why should she spend Essence or use Songs until she's gotten all those Needs? It's surprisingly easy *not* to use Essence, sometimes! (I have a PC with a lot of Songs -- known at level 1. She takes forever to perform them, so she often doesn't bother. If she knows she's heading into trouble, she sings Claws about an hour in advance. Ditto CorpSong of Tongues.) >>Not all Lilim are Perception 12. Not all Needs seen are the correct one. >>Not all Lilim manage to CelSong of Charm their target, and sensible >>Malakim spend Essence resisting a Geasing attempt, so that the Lilim >>takes dissonance and is then chopped up again. >> >>Or just wear those cool sunglasses! > >And hope the GM is lenient in defining "holding on to" for the purpose of >motion songs...... That too. (If the Lilim *has* those Songs...) >>Thank the stars, you can only get up to Geas/6. (Unless you're Lilith, >>and even that's a maybe.) But yes, Lilim of Haagenti are quite >>entertainingly powerful. > >Taking no such thing as a free lunch to nightmareish extreme. :) No such thing as a free lunch... or breakfast... or dinner... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:32:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior On Tue, 19 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > This is mostly a matter of tradition and market logic, and there is > no intrinsic reason why you cannot have PCs who are powerful enough > to substantially reshape the fabric of the game world. (I actually > prefer to GM PCs this powerful, since players tend to be more > willing to play PCs who make commitments and tie themselves into > a gameworld when they believe the PCs will have the abillity to live > up to their pledges.) So what's the problem? Run all the PCs as 18 Force word-bounds, let them go hog wild changing the universe, and give the whole party an even shot at wiping out a Superior. Do what you want, but don't get upset if the majority on the list don't play that way. > necessarily yes. If the aa/dp doesn't kill the PCs, then the next round > the PCs will summon someone who /can/ stand up to them. Best to > eliminate the problem before it comes up. This turns any fight into > a question of who can call their superior first. This is ridiculous. Summoning a Superior because you're in a fight is like caling 911 because your kid scraped his knee. They're likely to let you off with a warning the first time, without actually doing anything to help, and if it turns out to REALLY be serious, they'll pitch in, but if you do it a few times or more, you'll just piss THEM off. If it's you against 20 10-force demons, Michael will probably understand this once. If it's the fourth time this week, he'll probably give you one hell of a lecture about not in over your head, then simply not show up the next time you summon him, not without scrying out the area first, at least. If you ever summon him and it's you against an equal or lesser force, watch out.... Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:18:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Saints On Mon, 18 May 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Mon, May 18, 1998 at 11:07:54AM -0400, MarkDEddy wrote: > > St. Bride's cult includes (as recorded in the Carmina Gaedelica...) young > > women dressing in bridal clothes, wearing crowns woven of wheat and singing > > hymns to the Saint. If I'm remembering correctly, her Saint's day is May 1st, > > also known as Beltane. There's more, but those are the two I can remember... > > > Nope. Her feast day is the 1st of February, which used to be called > Imbolc, but isn't any more. Yes it is. Maybe not by the Christians, but may of the Witches I know still celebrate it. It is a festival to celebrate the Goddess, and the turning of the wheel of the year. It was known as Candlemas by the Catholic church for quite a while. > Bealtaine (the pronunciation does not > resemble what Beltane looks like in English in the slightest, apart from > the consonants) is now the Irish for the month of May in general, and was > the name of the Celtic Festival. As a feast day, it's more or less dead, > from what I can see, and the only thing noteworthy that I recall of the > cult is those weird crosses made of reeds (I think). > > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. > -- > "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would > have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council > and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior > motivation." > The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. > All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:22:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Saints On Mon, 18 May 1998 crossbyte@juno.com wrote: > Come to think of it, most feast days of Saints are seldom celebrated, > except in the countries in which they are Patron of. One exception is St. > Patricks day, but realize there are at least 2-3 Saints per day that have > their feast on a particular day... > ie, St. Peter and St. Paul have feasts on June 29 (I think) St. John the Baptists is June 24th. I know this because it is my birthday. Shadowcat P.S. does the idea of a Baptist being a Catholis saint strike anyone else as Kobals idea of a one liner? All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:06:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Several IN Questions (was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... At 11:51 AM -0400 5/19/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>The Balseraph takes some "fact," incorporates the TRUTH of that >>fact into his personal symphony [...] > >While I hadn't realized it at the time, this interpretation makes it >possible for a Balseraph of Kronos [with] the Seraph resonance [...] >Truths that will herd mortals toward their Fates. An embarrassingly >useless ability suddenly becomes quite effective... Synergy. Amusing. I like it. Sort of like Kronos' answer to Yves' Divine Logic attunement, no? I do wonder, though, if Balseraph-Seraphim of Fate tend to have the highest redemption stats... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:04:32 -0500 From: ehp Subject: IN> Bright Victory (long) Hello all. Given all this cannonical talk of even ballance and how hard superiors are or aren't, thought I would just post a completely non canonical mess where superiors are a dime a dozen... at least, on one side..., and nothing is in ballance. This is a concept I had before I started running Fade to Grey, and has vaguely plagued me since then, so I thought I would send it to the list. The title is either with apologies to Redneck or with a tip of the hat to him, depending on how he likes it. In the original idea, the War between Heaven and Hell was actually run six thousand years ago, just after Lucifer fell, and the idea is that Lucifer only attracted one third of heaven's forces, and lost the War, and was cast down into Hell... and the War has ceased to be an issue ever since. Demons have effectively been banished from the earth, and whenever they showed up, the Malakim came down on them like a tonne of bricks. Basically, this yields a far more mundane world, in which the Angel's roles are much more important than their fighting ability, and they are guides to the mortals, rather than opponents of hell. This leaves much scope still for politics of Heaven intrigues... In this version of events, which is the background for Fade, the only major incidences of Demonic intervention tended to be with the Shedim (who could get away) or with the Lilim, (who could mingle with humans without attracting too much attention). Any use of essence was always looked into, and all diabolical tethers were short lived and moved around as often as possible to avoid detection. In short, Heaven ruled, and demons only got tiny chances to act. From this, I came up with a second interesting aside, which is not exactly in the same universe, but has a similar theme, and it formed into this vignette. Hope you like. Bright Victory The misshapen form lay on the blasted plain. Blood dripped from everywhere as it crawled forwards, each movement a new discovery in agony. Multiple injuries deeper in the flesh were aparent, but beyond that, there did not actually appear to be any skin left on the form. By some superhuman effort of will, it opened its mouth and spoke. "My... Lord ... Lucifer ..." There was a crash of thunder in the middle distance. A black wieght of clouds flowed rapidly across the blood red sky, bringing darkness as they came. The parched and cracked earth seemed to swallow the blood of the figure as it continued to crawl forwards. First the left hand, then the right hit some form of impediment, and with the kind of fortitude that novels were written about, the figure raised its bloody head, and looked at last upon the stones in its path. "What Is It, Baal?" asked a disembodied voice, with something that may have been a sigh. The bloodied shape collected itself as best it could, and raised its head once more. "My ... Lord ... Lucifer ..." "This Is Getting Tedious..." A light parted the clouds, and a single beam shone from on high down on a lone standing figure on the blasted plain. His bronze and golden skin flashed suddenly, as he stood over what remained of the Demon Prince of War. The figure raised a graceful hand, and skin wove itself instantly over the flayed shape on the ground. "Now, Are You Feeling Any More Loquacious?" he said gently. Baal paused long enough to gather his breath, then stood, head bowed. "My lord Lucifer, I must report to you ..." "Yes, Yes, I know, Laurence Has Taken The Gates And Michael Has Moved His Forces Behind Our Lines And Is Conducting A War Of Utter Destruction Within The Bounds Of Hell." "But my Lord..." began the smaller figure. "Yes?" the question gave pause even to the thunder that saught to chase the flashes of light in the dark clouds. Baal swallowed, then started again. "My Lord, I have made use of every weapon at my disposal. I have emptied Vapula's laboratory to find new tools. I have send every last reserve into the fight. I have even," he swallows, "I have even sold whatever of my soul that does not belong to You to Lilith to secure her aid, and used every one of her committed troops and tricks... My lord, I have done all I can, and I am failing. Please, I beg you, you must join us ..." "It Is All Right, Baal." said Lucifer gently. "You Have Done All You Could." The beautiful voice sounded almost melodic. Baal was becoming more and more confused. "I ... don't understand... you knew we would fail? But how could you not act? Why have you not..." "It Is Not Your Place To Question Me, Baal." the soft voice continued. Baal tried to stop himself, but his nature that demanded to continue to struggle betrayed him, "But..." Lucifer stared at the shape in front of him, freezing the Demon Prince in place. Then he slowly let out a long breath of air, tucked his hands behind his back, and turned to look upon the cracked land around him. Slowly he began to stride purposefully across the empty ground. "I Will Not Personally Go Out To Fight Michael Again. Nor Will I Confront The Forces Of Heaven And Drive Them From The Gates Of Hell. Walk With Me, Baal." he said. The Demon Prince obeyed, staying always a step behind. Slowly, the Arch Fiend began to speak. "Of All The Servants I Have Used Over Time, I Expected That I Would Be Having This Conversation With Someone Given The Word Of Death. But It Seems My Choice Of Samiga For His Enthusiasm Has Made It Such That He Will Die Himself Before He Comes To Me." Sigh. "So It Comes To You." Baal remained silent, confusion obvious on his face. "Oh, Dear, I Suppose I Had Better Be Plain About This." said Lucifer shortly. "I Am Not Sure How Much Time We Have. I Do So Much Prefer Being Cryptic, But Not Even That Luxury Is Left Now." "Baal. I Have Betrayed You. In Fact, I Am The Ultimate Traitor, Because I Have Betrayed Heaven, And Hell, Both, As Well As The Entirety Of Humanity." The Demon Prince of War froze in place. "What do you mean?" Sigh. "Must I Spell It Out For You? Very Well. You Remember How I Fell, Taking With Me One Third Of The Angels Of Heaven? That Part Was True. But What I Have Not Bothered To Tell Anyone Even After All This Time Until Now, Was The Fact That, The Very Next Evening, While I Was Drowning In A Mire Of My Own Self Pity, God Came To Visit Me." Baal looked surprised. "And He Offered Me A Job. You See, He Knew What Was On My Mind. And He Knew What I Was Capable Of. But, More Importantly, He Knew What I Would Realize As Soon As I Fell To This Sodden Earth Beneath The Earth, And That Was That Not Only Could I Never Win Against God, But Further, That I Could Never Rule In God's Place. I Tried It For One Day, Down Here, And I Knew. I Am Just Not Leadership Potential." "But..." started Baal. "Oh, Spare Me. Look At Hell, Damn It. What Kind Of Leader In Their Right Mind Would Leave Entities Like Malphas And Lilith Loose Inside Of Their Autocracy? The Truth Is, I Liked Free Will Too Much To Be An Autocrat, And What I Have Always Admired In Myself And Others Was That Pride And Ability To Act For Oneself. In Short, I Am Too Much Of An Individualist To Rule Anything Successfully. Especially Hell" "So I Made A Deal." He chuckles. "Yup, Kobal Would Appreciate It. I Made A Deal With God. I Became The Adversary, In Exchange For My Eventual Freedom. I Run Hell, As Incompetently As I Like, For As Long As Seems Necessary. It Is All Part Of The Ineffable Plan, You See. Then, When It Comes Time To End, I Play Out The End Game, And That Will Be That." he paused, as if thinking of some long past memory, then continues. Baal remained quiet. "But Heaven Was Not To Know. And Neither Was Hell. In Order For Evil To Be An Option, It Had To Look Like It Had A Chance." He began to chuckle. "But My Lack Of Observation Over My Subordinates Over Time Has Created A Situation. You See, Since Kronos Did Not Know The Plan, Nor You, Nor Any Of The Others, You Have All Been Far Too Competent In Making Evil. This Whole Twentieth Century Thing, I Must Say, I Am Impressed. But, The Problem Is That You All Pushed The Boundaries A Bit Too Hard. And Finally, The Other Side Are Not Incompetent Either. It Seems That The Situation Became Too Noticeable To Michael And The Others, And, Acting In Good Faith, They Decided To Clean Up House, And Finally Follow The Malakim's Vow To The End. To Not Suffer Evil To Live. Anywhere, Not Even In Hell. And The Truth Is, They Are The Superior Force. Always Have Been. They Are Here Now, Only A Few Steps Away, Almost Ready To Pounce On You And I." Baal took the step forward quickly behind the glowing form of his master. The blade in his hand struck once, deep and hard. "Ah... Thank You..." Said Lucifer as he fell finally for one last time onto the blasted plain of Hell. Baal raised the bloodied blade and looked at it. "You Utter Bastard." he said. Then looking around as the flashes of lightning grew fiercer and more insistent, he covered the blade once more, and fled from that place. His last words to the body were spoken in haste. "Just because you couldn't hack it, doesn't mean we all should give in. Self-centred egotistical prick." Then he spat on the corpse, and fled as fast as he could to the Well of Souls, gathered as many hearts as he could carry, and then out, crossing Beleth's tower, and fleeing into the Marches. There is a book in a library, long forgotten by man. It is the only text of its kind, and within it is a peculiar illumination. What none save one know, is that it is an exact image of the entirely of heaven, imprinted by miracle onto a page. A hand gently takes down the book, and opens it onto the right page, staring at one dark corner, and within it, one tiny globe. The hand moves across the globe and touches it gently. And Yves trembles with realization. In the top room of one glass plated tower, in the heart of the Eternal City, there was a tiny, forgotten globe of crystal which had remained dark for six thousand years. It had always been there, yet till now, no one had remembered it. The old man who slowly climbed the steps of the tower to the top took his time, eyes distant and amused. Finally he made it there, just as suddenly a light began to throb inside the globe. It grew and grew with intensity, till it was bright enough to rival the illumination of the celestial temple. Yves reached down, and gently stroked once hidden Heart. "Lucifer? Light bringer?" The light became more gentle. "I am home again, Father. I am sorry..." Yves' tears flowed freely. "Come, let's go discuss this with our Maker." ***************************************************************** Naturally this has fewer obvious potential story lines by comparison to the Dark Victory idea... But here are a couple anyway. - This scenario is much more suited to the demons of the resistance type situation. There is no more hell. There is no more Lucifer. Most of the DPs are either dead or taken for Inquisition. Those few that remain have either gone renegade, or have joined the banner of Baal, and are conducting a covert guerilla war against the overwhelming power of heaven. Think all those rebellion stories and make 'em epic. - Angels are left with either mop up duty or are now dealing entirely with the politics of heaven. In the first case, one particularly interesting duty might be the cleansing and re-allocation of Hell. And what if several superiors want it? I can picture Domenic or Gabriel cutting out their own left arms to get hold of half of the neat ideas in Azmodeus' toolroom... - And, now, what does God do to make an Adversary? Does She pick one of the Archangels near to fall, and have a long talk with them... say... Gabby?... and convince them to take the Role as Evil? Or does She merely mysteriously invest more power in whoever turns out to be the best leader of the Infernal Revolution, to give them a fighting chance? :) Evan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:08:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear (Re: Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior) On Tue, 19 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > ("Corner the Lilim till she yells for Mommy, and then she pays > the summoning-geas and I can have a chat with Lilith")... I like it. Need to be sure that the Lilim yells for Mommy instead of her Superior (for Bound Lilim) or her contract-holder (for Free Lilim working for Demon Princes.) But I like it. Lilith would either be amused or angered, depending on whether or not she considered it Lilim-abuse. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:08:50 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Soldiers and songs (Was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know...) On Mon, 18 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Okay. Songs are ways to manipulate the Symphony. Normal Soldiers > (it says this, p. IN32) can only learn Corporeal Songs. This is > because they are native to the corporeal realm, and are most easily > "attuned" to Corporeal Songs. That doesn't really seem to follow. Yor explanation just says that soldiers are best at learning Corporeal Songs, because of their "attunement" to the Corporeal Realm. Based on that, it would make more sense to rule that it is possible for Soldiers to learn Ethereal and Celestial Songs, but at an increased cost (perhaps 3 points per level for Ethereal, and 5 points per level for celestial, with a maximum level equal to their Forces of the appropriate type). > Dream-Soldiers -- those who serve Beleth, Blandine, and the ethereal > gods -- have a connection to the ethereal plane. They dream every > night (like all living mortals), which gives them a teensy alignment > there, and their Superiors can adjust them more (which takes effort, > essence, personal attention, and all those good things that keep > them from doing it to *every* Soldier). They are able to learn and > perform Ethereal Songs. So mortals have only a "teensy" alignment with the Ethereal Realm? I would think that their alignment with the Ethereal would be, if anything, *stronger* than the one the Celestials have. After all, mortals go there every night and help create it. Celestials only visit there occasionally (unless they serve Dreams or Nightmares), and need special songs or Attunements to shape the Ethereal. > Saints have had their beings altered just a touch. They died and > went to Heaven, for starters. The Light of Heaven has permeated > their beings, and they now have an affinity for the celestial realm, > and therefore Celestial Songs are available to them. I guess that makes sense, but see my commentary on the undead. > Undead have had their celestial forces *bound* to their bodies. > In effect, their celestial forces are also corporeal. They sneak > in the back door and are able to learn Celestial Songs. But there are many humans that have Celestial forces already. Aren't those forces just as much a part of them? I really don't see what the difference between an undead's Celestial forces and a regular human's Celestial forces are, except for the artificially inflated number the undead has. > Does that help? Not really. Perhaps you could try again? But thank you anyway. Richard "Mr. Urie" Gant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:09:27 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: Several IN Questions (was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know... At 13:06 19/05/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >I do wonder, though, if Balseraph-Seraphim of Fate tend to have >the highest redemption stats... > Highest drop-out due to insanity rate, for sure ;) (ie. worse than normal demonic insanity) jo "In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing." - -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:25:16 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine, a Sam Peckinpah Film (or, Killing Superiors for Fun and Prophet) >At 9:17 PM -0500 5/18/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>Okay, I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I can go on no longer >>without making a statement or three on the subject. >> >>(1) POWER LEVEL OF SUPERIORS >> >>First off, (and this is counter to what Beth has said is canon, I would like >>her word back on this one), I do NOT believe that a Superior is the >>incarnation of the aspect of the Symphony they hold as their Word. If this >>were so, some Celestials would be incarnated with Words inborn, and >>non-Wordborn Celestials could never aspire to a Word. > >They may not be born with it, but once they are bound to a Word, it >is a part of them. I *think* that once they become Superiors, they >become almost an avatar of that theme. It's something that they >develop, though -- they voluntarily (?) merge themselves into something >greater than themselves (though maybe not self-aware? they're the >self aware ones). > >They *become* their Word incarnate. > I don't know about that. The problem with this view is that, in many, many cases, Words can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways, and each Superior is dedicated to one in particular. To give examples: Michael -could- take War from the general's point of view, not the footsoldier. Andrealphus -could- take over Haagenti's and Mammon's Words as aspects of Lust. Vapula -could- simply acquire and promote technological breakthroughs, instead of focusing on the creative process involved. (Think Bill Gates-ula.) Jordi -could- focus on animals in the service of man, instead of focusing on animals separate and free of them. Also, the actions of some Superiors could as easily be attributed to -other- words. Laurence, Archangel of War/the Host/Valor/Armies/Vengeance. Kronos, Demon Prince of Time. Haagenti, Demon Prince of Food. Malphas, Demon Prince of Betrayal. Jean, Archangel of Storms. These Superiors have been bound to a Word- some by choice, some by the Creator Himself- but they have the freedom to redefine that Word according to their own needs and the changing world they live in. >In return, they sacrifice some of their freedom of choice and of >perspective. Andrealphus *does* see everything in metaphors of >flesh and sensation. Gabriel *cannot* refuse to burn. These characteristics, and others possessed by other Superiors, are not because of the Words, I think, but pre-existed Words and were the aspects which made them ideal for those particular Words in the first place. Since most of the -really- young, recently Worded Superiors are Demon Princes, I'll pick three of them to illustrate the point. Vapula was fascinated (obsessed) with seeing how things worked and using what he learned to make more complicated things. Haagenti wanted to devour his enemies and take everything he could get for himself, preferably to eat it too. Nybbas wanted to control other beings by controlling the avenues of exchange of ideas, going so far as to create a totally new medium to do it with. >(That seems to be a potential theme in IN -- a loss of a certain >amount of Free Will for Power. A voluntary surrender to "something >greater" in exchange for glory. A forsaking of everything you ever >were, in exchange for Free Will above all. Maybe the Lilim's >TANSTAAFL is applicable in more metaphoric ways. > I look on these themes more in a political sense than a metaphysical sense. Each Worded Celestial promotes and defends their Word as their power base, and Worded Demons actively seek to subsume other Words into their own. In order to attain a Word, the Celestial must be predisposed towards aspects of that Word beforehand. Afterwards, they may change to more closely mirror their Words, but these changes are caused by choices and actions taken in promoting and defending those Words, not by the nature of just being bound to those Words. It is perfectly -possible- to have a Word and not reflect it in oneself, but Celestials who have taken this approach are seldom successful. (Fleurity comes to mind as one of the rare successes- the Demon Prince of Drugs is possibly the most sober being in Hell shy of Kronos.) Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #787 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.