From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 20 15:53:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28377 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:53:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA01050 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:43:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:43:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199805202043.PAA01050@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #789 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 789 In this digest: Re: Soldiers and songs (Was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know...) Re: IN> Serious-Quotable Celstial Re: Soldiers and songs (Was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know...) Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear (Re: Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior) Re: IN> Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> Serious-Quotable Celstial Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) Re: IN> New Discords Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN> Bright Victory (long) Re: IN> The Superior Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:20:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Soldiers and songs (Was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know...) At 1:08 PM -0400 5/19/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Mon, 18 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Okay. Songs are ways to manipulate the Symphony. Normal Soldiers >> (it says this, p. IN32) can only learn Corporeal Songs. This is >> because they are native to the corporeal realm, and are most easily >> "attuned" to Corporeal Songs. > >That doesn't really seem to follow. Yor explanation just says that >soldiers are best at learning Corporeal Songs, because of their >"attunement" to the Corporeal Realm. Based on that, it would make more >sense to rule that it is possible for Soldiers to learn Ethereal and >Celestial Songs, but at an increased cost (perhaps 3 points per level for >Ethereal, and 5 points per level for celestial, with a maximum level equal >to their Forces of the appropriate type). If you want to do it that way, that would also be a plausible use of the universe-reasons for why it works that way. But it's *simpler* to say, "No, don't work." On-off switches are easier than dials. (And yes, this is a consideration.) >> Undead have had their celestial forces *bound* to their bodies. >> In effect, their celestial forces are also corporeal. They sneak >> in the back door and are able to learn Celestial Songs. > >But there are many humans that have Celestial forces already. Aren't >those forces just as much a part of them? I really don't see what the >difference between an undead's Celestial forces and a regular human's >Celestial forces are, except for the artificially inflated number the >undead has. The Undead has had its Celestial Forces *bound* to the corporeal. It takes its human affinity to the corporeal and sllliiiiides over into the celestial. >> Does that help? > >Not really. Perhaps you could try again? Hmph. If you want to argue how the mechanics arise from the background, then you get to do it yourself. If your worldview doesn't mesh with mine, I can't do much. (Besides, I'm working with what I was given -- and some of it, like the *&T^*&^ dream-Soldiers, got in during the Line Editor Interregnum. If I'd been doing it then, they *wouldn't exist*, or at least not so trivially.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:13:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Serious-Quotable Celstial - ---gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Honestly. Why is Eli always portraied as a flake? > > Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant > > It's a secret plan... Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:56:08 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: Soldiers and songs (Was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know...) On Tue, 19 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 1:08 PM -0400 5/19/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > >On Mon, 18 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [snip] > >> Does that help? > >Not really. Perhaps you could try again? > Hmph. If you want to argue how the mechanics arise from the > background, then you get to do it yourself. If your worldview > doesn't mesh with mine, I can't do much. [snip] LMAO goes to show you--don't honk off the Demon Princess ;) -=|horsefly|=- "All I am after is a just life, at the end of which I can laugh as I die." --ARCADIA OF MY YOUTH, end credits lyrics ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:10:36 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Lilith At 10:55 AM 19/05/98 -0800, you wrote: >>If a Prince's strength is based on a word, then hasn't Lilith made >>incredible gains in the 20th century alone? Eastern Europe freed. >>Soviet Union collapsed. (more) Equal rights for women. Civil rights. >>Human rights. Lilith kicks ass. >> >>End of rant. >> >>Bart Hammerly > >I don't think that Lilith embodies that kind of freedom. If she is really >all for that, then why are all her children born into slavery? I tend to >think that this represents personal freedom, regardless of the freedom of >others. > >Example: Smokers tend to embody the Lilith side of the Word. Any place >that is not relegated as a non smoking area is their domain. This includes >those small bus shelters when it is raining. They are just using their >"freedom" to excercise their rights as an adult, but they are subjecting >others to the ill effects. > >Lilith is there when someones personal freedom becomes the most important >focus; surpassing the rights of the majority. There is a reason that >Lillith is a DP, and it ain't the dental plan. > >Armand > >Although the dental plan is mighty good, and so is all the health insurance, and those cruises on Lucifer's private yacht... But seriously you're almost right about that, but you said it the way that makes it sound bad, what she is saying and I quote somone here 'Man makes his world or is crushed by the worlds of Others' Simon, Demon Prince of pearls "The Mind in its own rights can make a heaven out of Hell and a Hell out of heaven," John Milton, Paradise Lost > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:04:53 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear (Re: Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior) On Tue, 19 May 1998, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > On Tue, 19 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > ("Corner the Lilim till she yells for Mommy, and then she pays > > the summoning-geas and I can have a chat with Lilith")... > I like it. Need to be sure that the Lilim yells for Mommy instead of her so do i. > Superior (for Bound Lilim) or her contract-holder (for Free Lilim working > for Demon Princes.) But I like it. > > Lilith would either be amused or angered, depending on whether or not she > considered it Lilim-abuse. the other thing to consider--probably more important to some PCs and less to others--is what happens to the Lilim afterwards? is she let go, or does Lilith obliterate this incompetent servitor? even if the Lilim had been faithful and useful before, i'm *sure* Lililth wouldn't let such things occur more than once. if word got out that all you have to do to get a chat with Lilith is rough up her daughters... that would be a Bad Thing. therefore, if the poor Lilim isn't toast, she either gets a reputation because of what someone did to her, and people/celestials target her for the same treatment, or worse, target her sisters, too. i imagine Lilith wouldn't allow such a thing to become widespread, but what to do in order to prevent this... hmm. perhaps the one who got to talk to Lilith in this way would have to swear secrecy as to what s/he's done. -=|horsefly|=- "All I am after is a just life, at the end of which I can laugh as I die." --ARCADIA OF MY YOUTH, end credits lyrics ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:53:51 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> From the terminal of Pee Kitty: > >This is ridiculous. Summoning a Superior because you're in a fight is like > >caling 911 because your kid scraped his knee. They're likely to let you > >off with a warning the first time, without actually doing anything to > >help, and if it turns out to REALLY be serious, they'll pitch in, but if > >you do it a few times or more, you'll just piss THEM off. To which, Neel Krishnaswami did reply: > Why is it ridiculous for a demon prince to get rid of the only beings > who can summon a credible threat to him? Certainly, a Prince will > torture anyone he feels summoned him frivolously, but he's certainly > not going to put himself at risk, not when he can hurt his servants > without the risk. There's a fair amount of implication that the game is about more than angels and demons beating the crap out of one another. It, of course, depends on how you have your game structured[1], but canon suggests that the war is about people. Humans. You can knock the puddin' out of your Dire Enemy all you like in some dark alleyway, but if you aren't swaying humanity into your side's fold, you're just futzing about behind the scenes. Humanity needs to be wooed. If angels and demons conduct the -entire- War with their fists, humanity will build a stadium around, purchase some popcorn and cheer and jeer whoever seems to be winning at the time.[2] What stops a Demon Prince from snuffing a group of PCs upon arrival? Well, one reason could be that the PCs are small-fry, but that might trivialize many a player's fragile ego. Another might be that the Prince sees more value in making an impression or dropping something that would raise Doubt in a PC's mind about the side he has chosen -- enemies that you turn become allies instead of corpses. Yet another might be that even if the angelic PCs pulled off a summoning of one of their superiors ... who is to say the archangel would attack the prince? A few of the scenes I've seen in the books have had enemy superiors scowling at each other meaningfully through a crowd of people, which I believe has more style than whipping out the claws and eviscerating each other. Why? I'd assert that they recognize the crowd as what they really need to be working on. Not attacking each other's bodies "physically", but undermining each other's Words spiritually. Wooing humanity rather than brawling amongst them. So in addition to the irritation a superior would feel if their underlings called upon them to snuff out the competition (because, really, what were -you- made for in the first place?) all the time, they would also begin to question the underlings' methods that lead them into a "physical" confrontation to begin with. Here's how I picture it: Kronos: [looking quite grumpy] "And your problem this time is ...?" Zealous Servitor: "The ..uh.. three Malakim staring me down, sir." Kronos: [glance] [nod] "They do appear to be a problem, yes." Relieved Servitor: [sigh of relief] "Oh. Thank badness you've come, then." Kronos: [blank expression] "Thank badness?" Confused Servitor: "Well, yes. You're ... you're going to squick them now, right?" Kronos: "Hmmm. How fare's your charge? Has he progressed towards his Fate?" Malakim: [do a little dance] Yves: *poof* [takes in the scene] [in bland tones:] "Hello, Kronos." Kronos: [nods] "Yves." Bashful Servitor: "Ah. Fate. A-ha-ha. Yes ... well ... a bit. But, I ..er.. pilfered this real swank Unholy Pistol off of one of Saminga's oblivious servants, saw some angels twittering about in town and ..er.. thought I'd shoot a few." Kronos: [ponder] "Where is your charge at the moment?" Ashen Servitor: "Ah." [cough] "I ..er.. I sort of lost track of him in all the hub-bub." Yves: [smiles brightly] Malakite #1: "This sniveling carcass of yours has shown him the despair in the world ... and, in reaction, he has decided to join the Peace Corps to do something about it." Yves: [cooes] Kronos: "I see." [nods to the Malakim] "Carry on." Malakim: [blink] [pummel] Yves: [waves] Kronos: [nods] "Yves." Yves: "Kronos." *poof* Bruised Servitor: "B-b-but ..." Kronos: "I'll see you Below. We'll go over some of the -early- lessons, shall we?" > The disincentive to summoning a superior is damaging the relationship > with him or her -- which is balanced by the damage serious failure will > do to the relationship. ("If I let the angels rescue the kid, Belial > will be angry. If I call up Belial to stop them, Belial will still be > angry, but at least the angels will be in Trauma too.") Then there's the third option, "If I let the angels rescue the kid, but setup an ambush while they are feeling victorious, Belial will be so proud[3] of me for salvaging the operation -and- making the angels feel like heels." Remember, the PCs are their superior's operatives. They're supposed to be promoting their superior's Word and thwarting the efforts of their Enemy in the physical world. Thwarting efforts does not necessarily mean "Beat up the Enemy". It means undermine the Enemy's Word. Wiping the vessels of an angelic contingent from your turf might feel quite satisfying, but imagine the work you'd have to do if, while you were occupying yourself with snuffing angels, the area you were responsible for started gravitating towards Grace of their own accord! [1] ... and all the other associated tedium about tastes in gaming style, opinions about superior mechanics, theories concerning the origin of the universe and peoples' favorite flavor of yogurt. [2] If Nybbas managed to get broadcast rights, Hell might win after all. [3] That is, if you can get his attention away from the Sterno for a few moments. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:47:35 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) >In a message dated 5/19/98 10:12:10 AM, hjalkar@RedBrick.DCU.IE writes: > >>> Also Halloween and All Hollows Eve: The pagan celebration of the evil >>> spirits and the eve of All Saints Day, November 1. >>> >>Evil spirits as defined by whom? >> >In this case, the pre-Christian Irish. (Specifically the death of the year >where the unseileigh have sway for the entire night.) Post-Christian >syncretism in the 'Celtic fringe' led to it being simply the Night of Spirits >(friendly or un-). > >>Kevin. > Mark (Now it's a "Harvest Festival" in the Evangelical world...) I tend to think of it more as the "misunderstood" court. First of all, let us establish the difference between Seileigh and Unseileigh. In a prank involving an automobile: Seileigh take your car keys and put them in the 'fridge. Unseileigh take the brakes and toss them down the well. All in all, I tend to think of this as the diference between high and low comedy. High comedy is the way of subltey slipping something by in the hopes that the audience will "get it". Low comedy is of a nature that is overbearingly demonstative in its effects; generally "harming" in nature. So, classifying the Unseileigh as "evil" spirits would be the same as likewise designating the three Stooges. Sorry, had to rant, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:32:05 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question Walter Milliken wrote: > Their multi-tasking is going to turn out to be pretty limited, I think > -- on the order of no more than a dozen instantiations, and possibly > considerably less. The idea of Superiors being able to multitask bothers me only because when Legion, who wasn't even Superior-level, learned Multiplicity, somehow, and could possess two people at once, it ignited Chaos, Fear and Anarachy. But then....Saminga could already as a Superior do it? The Shedim factor kind of worries me. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:29:36 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith Armand wrote: >Lilith is there when someones personal freedom becomes the most important >focus; surpassing the rights of the majority. I think that one of the wackier pro-slavery arguments was 'I should be free to own slaves. The government has no right to dictate my personal morality!' I wonder where Lilith would have stood on that (she doesn't mind her daughters enslaving other people...) jo ps. I loved the Bright Victory stuff! Baal deserves it. Sorry to concatenate but I've been having trouble keeping up lately ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 04:40:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Serious-Quotable Celstial On Tue, 19 May 1998, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > My take on Eli's serious answer to 'Why do you do it?' is: > > "I thought it would be fun." Mine would be: "You've gotta stop being so hung up on whys and wherefores. Reasons for things, reasons against things, reasons to do things.....listen closely, I'll tell you a secret: some things just can't be explained. You've got to experience them before you can understand. Once you understand, you don't need reasons." This is, of course, why Dommie is peeved at him. Dominic is all about The Rules, and Eli don't follow The Rules. -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:42:32 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear On Tue, May 19, 1998 at 03:59:15PM -0400, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >>Even if PCs and NPCs are circumspect about summoning superiors, this > >>still means that archangels and demon princes will very likely be > >>sommoned at the climax of the adventure. This is bad, both in literary > >>terms and in gaming terms, because it removes the possibility of > >>consequential action from the PCs at the very moment of the most > >>important decisions. > > And I'm going to do my own spoiler for Demon Prince of Rock & Roll, and possibly No Dinero. In both cases, there were Superiors at the climax. > SPOILERS BEGIN > > Certainly some of the archangels -- especially Jean, David, and > Laurence -- would be upset if you *didn't* call them at the finale, > seeing the PC as grandstanding at the risk of blowing something > big. Doesn't David encourage individual as well as communal strength? There needs to be a solid reason /not/ to call them at that > moment. For both sides. > Well, it's like this. If there are approximately equal numbers, and they're aware of each other, calling a Superior is a bad tactical move, because the person summoning the Superior is going to be wasted while he's spending his two rounds chanting. And actually, all they have to do is stun him, and the summoning is interrupted. Also, the Superior is not guaranteed to show up instantly. Now, the two published scenarios that Mithredath was in. Demon Prince of Rock & Roll, and No Dinero. DPRR, first. At the climax, Mithredath was in the place where the concert was held (with her security badge and other PC). The place wasn't quite crawling with Superiors, but there were a good number of them there. This appears, paradoxically, to be what prevented any of them intervening directly. Mithredath talked to two Superiors, Baal and Eli. The sum of what happened is this: she got a concert program off Baal and got told by Eli where the sound-mixing studio was. She could have gotten these by other means, but didn't want to spend time looking for the studio, and couldn't resist twitting Baal, once given the opportunity. She went to the studio, ordered the person there out at gunpoint, and switched the Summoner CD with the one bearing Donna's voice. (This was actually a second-best option. Ideally, she would have liked to sabotage the concert entirely, but her bike had been destroyed earlier, and she reckoned she would either end up in jail or dead, and definitely dissonant.) So it ended up being Donna summoning Lucifer and not Furfur, and the events expected came to pass. Mithredath had previously prevented Druiel offing the band. The first point is this: the only Superior who really made a difference was Lucifer. The second point is that even though she didn't have a chance of taking out Furfur by herself, she caused him to be taken out, and quite efficiently too. No Dinero. It turned out in this one that more or less the opposite happened. This is something of a warning against summoning Superiors too quickly. I'm taking the text from a mail I sent to Jo, because I'm too lazy to write all out again. Then Big Things started to happen. The group found Thor at a museum. Mithredath jumps to the conclusion that this is important. We look around the museum, and can't find anything. The conclusion Mithredath draws is that his hammer is somewhere in the museum, that Thor knows where it is, and (she leaves this last part unspoken) the correct thing to do is to follow Thor around and summon Janus when he gets near the hammer. Thor is evicted by museum staff in a confusing scene, and the rest of the group decide to go off. Mithredath is astounded and declares that she wants to stay at the museum anyway. In the event, Thor runs back in, having obtained the admission fee by beating up some cops outside. Mithredath summons Janus, blowing all her Essence, and mentioning Mjolnir prominently. Janus appears just after Thor has gone through the door. Mithredath explains matters to Janus rather sparsely, and he goes. Janus makes his way to the hammer with ease. Then he gives the hammer to Thor (sight was lost of Thor for a period during these events). While jaws are dropping, another Thor shows up. Mithredath does the logical thing, she resonates and hopes that whoever is next to speak will draw light on the situation. Janus holds the Thors in place for the moment. Mithredath asks the newcomer what his name is. He doesn't respond. In a staggering misinterpretation of a resonance roll, the Elohite of War proclaims that the newcomer is Loki. The Symphony tells Mithredath that that just ain't so, and she says so. Janus confiscates the hammer and gives it to Thor, who smites Loki. The mundane disturbance attracts police who attempt to shoot at the thieves. They die messily at Janus' hands. A demon also shows up, attracted by the rather large Celestial disturbance. She dies too, but not before asking Baal to come. Fun Stuff happens. We are informed that there is a noise from the top of the building. Baal has manifested. Thor attempts to smite him, and it does absolutely no harm to him. Thor buggers off. Janus attempts to fight Baal and the place gets thrashed. Neither the Michaelite nor the Gabrielite summon their Superiors (I'm still not sure whether that would have saved the situation or brought on Armageddon), and we run under cover of a Song of Corporeal Shields. Janus loses, and leaves before he gets killed. We're told that the circle of destruction has a radius of about a quarter of a mile. Then we're told that it forms an Infernal Tether, possibly the largest Infernal Tether in the world. The moral of this story is that two opposed Superiors in the same place is a Bad Thing. > SPOILERS END > > (For the rest of the post, I'm going to assume the angels are PCs, > because it's easier to phrase things that way. But the same applies > to demons, too.) > > > >Which means that there are times when the grand finale is something > >that one doesn't *need* to summon a Superior for. Superiors are busy > >busy busy. Call them too much, and they get annoyed. > > Yes, that's why I specified "even if the PCs and NPCs are circumspect." > But that still means that the big guns come in at the climax, moving > the focus away from the main characters. No. Maybe there was something you snipped in that paragraph that gives a contrary impression, but what's up there at the moment says that the big guns _don't_ have to show up. Small, personal plots are > immune to this problem, but most games tend to have a big main plot > to give the PCs a reason to stick together. This plot is vulnerable to > hijacking by NPC superiors. > Well, yes, obviously it's vulnerable to hijacking. > The trouble is that this applies to Princes too -- if they show > up and see a PC summoning his archangel, it's basic sense to > stomp the angel before it finishes. > If two sides are busily summoning a Superior, and busily spending their time guarding the person summoning the Superior rather than trying to take out the person on the other side summoning a Superior, then they're both mad. Combat between Superiors is bad, and lots of things get trashed. > So if you are messing up something really important to the other > side, you show up, summon your boss, and the game is over, because he > can stomp them before they can call in something that can handle > him. If you wait, they can do the same thing to you. > Only if you can't handle it yourself. Because you are a Servitor, and Servitors are supposed to be there to do things on their own initiative. Remember what Marcus said? "The bad thing about occasionally having the undivided attention of a Demon Prince is that you occasionally have the undivided attention of a Demon Prince." It's not quite as bad with Archangels, but even so. > Offing one or two a round is gameable -- I just don't think that > this is current canon. Can a demon prince cause as much damage > as, say, a large-bore artillery round? I think most people would > agree this is reasonable, but if this is true then a Prince can > put every angel in a PC group instantly into trauma, given the body > hits of the average angel. > And nukes a large area, too. Most Princes aren't into wanton destruction. (If they're against Baal, of course, they're all dead, because Baal has the Art of Combat. He gets to kill 6 a round, even assuming he only has 6 Corporeal Forces.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:43:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) Armand wrote: > So, classifying the Unseileigh as "evil" spirits would be the same as > likewise designating the three Stooges. I have no problem with doing that... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:11:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> New Discords Neel's "Ban" discord overlaps with a discord I was playing around with, "Invitation Only." The discordant is unable to step over a threshold into someone else's residence unless invited by someone who lives there. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:50:32 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Lilith >>Lilith is there when someones personal freedom becomes the most important >>focus; surpassing the rights of the majority. There is a reason that >>Lillith is a DP, and it ain't the dental plan. >> >>Armand >> >>Although the dental plan is mighty good, and so is all the health >insurance, and those cruises on Lucifer's private yacht... But seriously >you're almost right about that, but you said it the way that makes it sound >bad, what she is saying and I quote somone here 'Man makes his world or is >crushed by the worlds of Others' > >Simon, Demon Prince of pearls > >"The Mind in its own rights can make a heaven out of Hell and a Hell out of >heaven," John Milton, Paradise Lost >> >> I really do think that Lilith's freedom is not the same as setting someone go. This would be the freedom that Janus controls. Yes, I realize that I make her version sound bad, but I really think it is when viewed from a larger perspective. Here's another example: Let's look at fetishists. In general, when asked about why they do it, they respond that they are just excercising their sexual freedom. However, this "freedom" must be adhered to. Many fetishists cannot complete, and sometimes cannot perform in, sexual acts without the object of the fetish being present. Does this sound like true "Freedom"? Yet, I bet that this is a form of "freedom" that is controlled by Lilith. When looked at from the perspective of the fetishists, they are more "free" than those who are to "inhibitted" to experience their form of passion. However, this is not "true Freedom" as far as the rest of the world is concerned. Is this bad? Well, Lilith is the mother that sells her children into slavery at birth. Her children bind others to them through Geasa. I cannot take the idea of Lilith being the embodiment of the Word Freedom as in regards to civil rights seriously. Please note, I am of the belief that demons are selfish, angels selfless. The idea of Lilith being about the freedom of human kind doesn't fit my world view. Hope this sheds soem light, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:55:17 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) >Armand wrote: > >> So, classifying the Unseileigh as "evil" spirits would be the same as >> likewise designating the three Stooges. > >I have no problem with doing that... > >Earl Why do I get the bad feeling that someone is writing up the Stooges as Etherals? Worse yet, Calabim. Scared o' that. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 98 11:55 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilith [jo:] >I think that one of the wackier pro-slavery arguments was 'I should be free >to own slaves. The government has no right to dictate my personal morality!' >I wonder where Lilith would have stood on that (she doesn't mind her >daughters enslaving other people...) I think Lilith's point of view is basically: "There should be no restrictions on anyone that they do not freely choose to agree to -- freedom is important. And *my* freedom is the *most* important." The latter part is what puts her firmly on the selfish side -- if there is any conflict between her freedom and someone else's, she expects to get *her* way. Yes, this is a double standard, but what do expect from someone who's in Hell's camp...? As far as the slave-owner example goes, I think she'd agree with the slave owner that the government shouldn't regulate slavery... and then go encourage the slaves to rebel. Incidentally, someone said something about Lilith selling her daughters into slavery. I'm pretty sure canon actually runs counter to this -- that all of her daughters are given the choice at creation of binding to a Prince (whereupon the Prince owes Lilith), owing Lilith a few favors for their creation (9 weeks is pretty cheap...), or being destroyed and recycled. (This may be in the IPG, or in some of the forthcoming FotM stuff on Lilith -- I don't remember which.) Also, in our campaign (but not necessarily in canon), many of the Lilim who bind to Princes actually start out as Free Lilim and choose to bind later, after shopping around to see who's most fun to work for, and who gives the best bennies. In this case, the Prince normally buys the remaining Geases from Lilith as part of his payment to the Lilim for taking service with him. If a Prince wants a "custom" Lilim, he provides Lilith with some of his personal Forces, which she uses to craft the new Daughter, and the newborn is very likely to be predisposed to bind to the Prince. I.e., there is some substantial bias from the source of the Forces. "Ordinary" Lilim, constructed from random Forces Lilith has picked up, or gotten in deals with Princes, tend to be more likely to choose the Free option, at least for a while. But it's still the Daughter's free choice -- they don't have a slave mentality in either case. Thus, Lilith doesn't enslave her daughters -- they enslave themselves, if they so choose. That's *their* business, if they freely choose to give up their freedom. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 98 12:01 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question [Sean:] >The idea of Superiors being able to multitask bothers me only because >when Legion, who wasn't even Superior-level, learned Multiplicity, >somehow, and could possess two people at once, it ignited Chaos, Fear >and Anarachy. But then....Saminga could already as a Superior do it? >The Shedim factor kind of worries me. All Will Be Explained, in Time.... Yes, this came up a while ago in some discussions among the writers. Legion *was* an unusual case, going *way* beyond the usual Superior abilities in that direction. I believe part of it was that he actually assimilated the Forces of the people he took over, not just possessed them normally. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:20:30 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear Hm. Summonings of Superiors so far in my game: (a) Jordi, by a Kyriotate of Jordi (Hitherby) when about to be trashed by a Habbalite, a Shedite, and a Cherub (Chephirah) enraged against him by the nasty Habbalite. Hitherby got lucky on the reaction roll, and the demons both decided to run for it. Jordi just pulled them out of there and dumped them in the nearest park, clearing Chephirah's head. (The Symphonic disturbance was somewhat misunderstood by the Lilim (Daimon) and Ofanite (Zebinah), who were in bed together at the time.) (b) Dominic showed up, but this wasn't a summoning, this was the Weekly Checkup On Mazpatiel (Elohite of Judgement) and just happened to coincide with a 111 by a player in the middle of a fight. (c) Jean, by a Kyriotate of Jean (Sephar) due to the fact that Vapula had just been summoned by a Servitor of his, and was pointing a raygun in their direction, and that they were carrying an unknown artifact which the Vapulans wanted. Jean told the PCs to run. They ran. There was a lot of thunder and lightning behind them. And I am entirely sure there'll be more. http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:01:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question At 12:32 AM -0700 5/20/98, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: >> Their multi-tasking is going to turn out to be pretty limited, I think >> -- on the order of no more than a dozen instantiations, and possibly >> considerably less. > >The idea of Superiors being able to multitask bothers me only because >when Legion, who wasn't even Superior-level, learned Multiplicity, >somehow, and could possess two people at once, it ignited Chaos, Fear >and Anarachy. But then....Saminga could already as a Superior do it? >The Shedim factor kind of worries me. Legion wasn't just multi-tasking as a Shedite -- he was apparently absorbing the hosts' Forces into his own. (p. IPG14, Legion, 4th paragraph.) There are some implications here and there that he was possessing *more* than other Princes could. (No ref.; implications are unpublished.) He'd found a quick and easy way to suck Forces out of humans, instead of relying on the growth of his Word, etc... Oops. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:21:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith At 11:55 AM -0400 5/20/98, Walter Milliken wrote: >Incidentally, someone said something about Lilith selling her daughters >into slavery. I'm pretty sure canon actually runs counter to this -- >that all of her daughters are given the choice at creation of binding to >a Prince (whereupon the Prince owes Lilith), owing Lilith a few favors >for their creation (9 weeks is pretty cheap...), or being destroyed and >recycled. (This may be in the IPG, or in some of the forthcoming FotM >stuff on Lilith -- I don't remember which.) IPG. Except for the 'recycled forces' bit, which is my personal take on what seems reasonable... (So if you really *want* to be a 7 Force Lilim, say you gave two of your Forces back for 2 of those week-Geases. >Also, in our campaign (but not necessarily in canon), many of the Lilim >who bind to Princes actually start out as Free Lilim and choose to bind >later, after shopping around to see who's most fun to work for, and who >gives the best bennies. In this case, the Prince normally buys the >remaining Geases from Lilith as part of his payment to the Lilim for >taking service with him. This snuck in, as implied, in the Guildhall stuff in Heaven & Hell. (Which, I admit, I wrote the first draft of. The rest of Hell is *not* mine.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:42:27 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question At 15:01 20/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 12:32 AM -0700 5/20/98, Sean McCarthy wrote: >> >>The idea of Superiors being able to multitask bothers me only because >>when Legion, who wasn't even Superior-level, learned Multiplicity, >>somehow, and could possess two people at once, it ignited Chaos, Fear >>and Anarachy. But then....Saminga could already as a Superior do it? >>The Shedim factor kind of worries me. > >Legion wasn't just multi-tasking as a Shedite -- he was apparently >absorbing the hosts' Forces into his own. Another simpler explanation might be that superiors have access to some Superior version of the Songs of Projection/ Possession... so it might only need to be corporeally present in one location at a time. If anyone else needs its personal attention it can just project or possess as appropriate. That would mean that whatever Legion had, it was still something different. (But if your PCs can kill Jordi, they get extra brownie points ;) ) jo "In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing." - -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:58:17 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Bright Victory (long) Wow! That was really... something. A good something! Lucifer redeemed... I like the way you think. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 98 16:24 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question [Jo:] >Another simpler explanation might be that superiors have access to some >Superior version of the Songs of Projection/ Possession... so it might only >need to be corporeally present in one location at a time. If anyone else >needs its personal attention it can just project or possess as appropriate. >That would mean that whatever Legion had, it was still something different. They probably have those, too, but I'm pretty sure the canon on this is that they can have multiple physical instantiations. (There is a future plot point that required this to be nailed down.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #789 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.