From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu May 21 10:58:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20548 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:58:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA19009 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:52:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:52:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199805211552.KAA19009@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #790 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 790 In this digest: Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements IN> Lillith Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) RE: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements Re: RE: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> Lillith Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #789 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #789 Re: IN> Lilith IN> Vessel Variation Re: Soldiers and songs (Was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know...) IN> Mel Blac was a Kyriotate Re: IN> Lilith IN> Tether Ready for Construction! IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) IN> Funny IN scene - actually happened Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN> Summoning Superiors IN> Re: IN - Lilith Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear (Re: Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior) Re: IN> The Superior Question Re: IN> The Superior Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:25:20 -0700 From: Dale Friesen Subject: Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements A couple weeks ago Walter Milliken wrote: >The following is how I am handling all this (this isn't entirely canon, >at least yet, but is based on some canon discussions during the writing >of the IPG): > >(1) you always have the Choir/Band attunement of a Superior you are bound > to (redeemed demons aren't actually bound until they earn this, they > are essentially "in service to" the Superior) > >(2) you *may* be granted other Choir/Band attunements *of your true > Superior only*. (This ability is an outgrowth of your connection to > his Word -- you would lose these if you switched Superiors. These > are not available if you are only in service to the Superior.) > >(3) you *may* be granted *your* Choir/Band attunement from another > Superior (or keep it when switching Superiors). You cannot have > *other* Choir/Band attunements of *other* Superiors (your nature has > nothing in common with them, either by Word-attachement or > Choir/Band nature). Does Pyramid count as canon? In a recent article there's a Cherub Vassal of Flowers with the Mercurian of Fire attunement (Karaziel, the Angel of Self Destruction). Does this reflect a new official policy? Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen  Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:34:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Venedam Subject: IN> Lillith The bit about demons being selfish, and angels selfless: well, I can accept that. Not universally true in my version of IN, but still mostly true. But the thing about lady L is, she's a demon princess. But she's not a demon. She's not even human, in the way that we are. She's just Lilith, unique in all creation(umm, gee, where did that come from :) ) So, I consider her more selfish than evil. And the freedom that she expouses is also more selfish than evil(or good). Janus promotes freedom as a positive good, Valefor as a negative. She just promotes freedom, damn the consequences. As such, her positive/negative affects on humanity about cancel out, which is fine with her. (I also think that if she was a real demon, people like jean wouldn't deal with her.) So she can do humans some good, as long as it doesn't hurt her. Charlie V. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:15:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) On Tue, 19 May 1998, Armand wrote: > >In a message dated 5/19/98 10:12:10 AM, hjalkar@RedBrick.DCU.IE writes: > > > I tend to think of it more as the "misunderstood" court. First of all, let > us establish the difference between Seileigh and Unseileigh. > > In a prank involving an automobile: > > Seileigh take your car keys and put them in the 'fridge. > > Unseileigh take the brakes and toss them down the well. The other problem of discribing the Unseileigh court as evil is that I have done a lot of study of the anchient Celtic/Gaelic legends/fairy stories, and you can find one character describes as being a mamber of both courts. It is simply a matter of from the humancentric point of veiw whether thay are a bane, or boon at the time. The best way of describing the seigh would be alien. they are not human, and do not have human mores, or ethics. Now bring it BACK to In Nomine, has anyone tried to do some of the various seigh as etherials? Caitscaith. Faigheann an cat cead amharc ar ri is ni fhagheann an ri cead e a chaitheamh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:30 -0700 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements From: Dale Friesen [mailto:dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca] Does Pyramid count as canon? In a recent article there's a Cherub Vassal of Flowers with the Mercurian of Fire attunement (Karaziel, the Angel of Self Destruction). Does this reflect a new official policy? - --- I'd make one addition to Walter's work, if I were glomming this into a campaign: If _you_ are a Worded celestial, and the GM rules that a specific Superior's attunement matches your Word, then it can be granted to you. (Mind you, _can_ be, not _will_ be.) If you look at Mercurian of Fire, it matches Karaziel brilliantly, even though neither he's neither Mercurian nor of Fire, but Gabriel couldn't be deader on by giving that attunement to him. steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 07:11:19 +0900 From: Dave Conrad Subject: Re: IN> Lilith Armand wrote: > I really do think that Lilith's freedom is not the same as setting someone > go. This would be the freedom that Janus controls. Yes, I realize that I > make her version sound bad, but I really think it is when viewed from a > larger perspective. Here's another example: > > I > cannot take the idea of Lilith being the embodiment of the Word Freedom as > in regards to civil rights seriously. Please note, I am of the belief that > demons are selfish, angels selfless. The idea of Lilith being about the > freedom of human kind doesn't fit my world view. > > Hope this sheds soem light, > Armand According to the core rules, page 150, one of Lil's rites is "Free a human from physical bondage (+2 Essence), and you get: +1 Invocation Mod(IM) for a pair of broken handcuffs +3 IM for a caged creature set free +5 IM for a human prisoner set free. So it seems that Lil' does care quite a bit about human freedom, and animal freedom too. The way I see it Lillim work on the principle that you can have freedom or security, but you can't have both. You can become completely free is you don't bargain parts of yourself away for more power from anyone else. And you can't take control of someone else, they have to give you the reigns. - -- Dave C. iN*T*x "To break the rules is to break the spell" - C. Lasch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 98 18:37 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements >Does Pyramid count as canon? I think the answer is "no", but I won't swear to it. Certainly Pyramid will publish things that would *not* be allowed in canon books. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 98 18:40 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: RE: IN> Right of Passage and Choir/Band Attunements >I'd make one addition to Walter's work, if I were glomming this into a >campaign: If _you_ are a Worded celestial, and the GM rules that a specific >Superior's attunement matches your Word, then it can be granted to you. That makes good sense -- as long as it's something that's sensible for your nature. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 98 18:42 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lillith [Charlie V:] >So, I consider her more selfish than evil. And the freedom that she >expouses is also more selfish than evil(or good). Janus promotes freedom >as a positive good, Valefor as a negative. She just promotes freedom, >damn the consequences. That's roughly how we play her in our games. She makes sure she does enough "bad" stuff and not too much "good" stuff, to keep Asmodeus off her back, but that's about all. She'd really be happeir on *neither* side, but doesn't think that's possible, if she wants to survive. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:10:17 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question At 12:01 PM 20/05/98 EDT, you wrote: >[Sean:] >>The idea of Superiors being able to multitask bothers me only because >>when Legion, who wasn't even Superior-level, learned Multiplicity, >>somehow, and could possess two people at once, it ignited Chaos, Fear >>and Anarachy. But then....Saminga could already as a Superior do it? >>The Shedim factor kind of worries me. > >All Will Be Explained, in Time.... > >Yes, this came up a while ago in some discussions among the writers. >Legion *was* an unusual case, going *way* beyond the usual Superior >abilities in that direction. I believe part of it was that he actually >assimilated the Forces of the people he took over, not just possessed >them normally. > > >---Walter > >Yowsers, definately sounds scary. No wonder an Archangel had to die to stop him (die, have his forces rendered whatever), do you suppose there will ever be a Canon adventure where PC's get to play some part in defeating Legion, or, shoch horror, help him? Simon, Demon Prince Of Pearls ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:24:21 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Yet another round of casting has beeen finished, and boy oh boy has it been difficult, nethertheless (is that right?) I have finally assigned for the roles of Kronos, Malphas and Nybbas. Kronos-Douglas Bradley, He's already played a Demon Prince in Hellraiser (oh yeah look out for my Hellraiser/In Nomine crossover soon!) and he syas cool things like 'I'll tear your soul apart!' Malphas-Hmmm, well, why not Robert DeNiro, especially in Cape Fear, although I'm sure Bart Simpson could do just as good a job! Nybbas-Alex Tribeck, what? he's already on Jeopardy, and manages to appear on all sorts of other shows, if not him, then who? (I thought David Letterman but then I figured it out he was most probably just a servitor). Now what does that leave me with, oh yeah,Lilith, Saminga, Valefor and Vapula (I decided to get this all finished in one go). Simon, Demon of Movie Productions that take way to long to be realized ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:08:52 EDT From: Gruzzle Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #789 Since this may seem a silly question, I'll keep it short: What exactly does "Canonical" refer to? I think I have a basic comprehension, but... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:48:04 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #789 >Since this may seem a silly question, I'll keep it short: >What exactly does "Canonical" refer to? I think I have a basic comprehension, >but... > ca*non, noun, a body of work considered to be definitive of the subject of that work, or considered official or genuine by students of the work. Examples: the canonical books of the Bible, the canon of Sherlock Holmes Stories, etc. In this case, canon is defined as material or information released and endorsed by Steve Jackson Games for In Nomine. This includes: * IN books published by SJG * Errata issued by SJG to correct errors in those books * Rulings and information given in public forums by official representatives of SJG Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:08:27 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Lilith On Tue, 19 May 1998, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > Just a quick note from my personal philosophy; the majority has no rights > not possessed by the minority. Okay, that sounds good in theory. > As such, for example, the majority has the right to not be subjected to air > pollution (cig smoke) in public places, but they do not have the right to > force smokers to quit or to ban smoking on private property. I agree. > For the same moral reasons, I do not grant any majority the right to define > what is obscene and unacceptable for the whole, since such a definition > would violate the rights of anyone who disagrees with any part of the > definition. All right, now I am curious. You say that the majority has no right "to define what is obscene and unacceptable for the whole". Then what are your opinions on laws? Law is the attempt of the majority to define what is and is not acceptable. Does that mean that the it you consider it immoral to outlaw crimes such as murder? Some people disagree with the idea that it is wrong. Are their rights violated? > That the majority often -does- make such decisions does not grant them the > right to do so; it only acknowledges their power to force these decisions > down our throats through abuse of the political process and the basic fact > that they -are- a majority. The majority making decisions is hardly an abuse of the political process. It is the political process. If the majority does not have the right to make decisions for a society, then who does? Should a minority be the ones who make the decision? Or should there be no decision at all, leaving the individual free to act as they see fit whenever they see fit? > Some of Lilith's Freedom is strictly selfish and uncaring, but a lot of it > is actually for a fundamental ideal- that nobody should be held in bondage > without their consent. Rather, I think Lilith's "Freedom" is the ability to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants, without concern for the consequences. Her "Freedom" is an illusion. It is the freedom to drive on the wrong side of a major divided highway, just because you (in the generic, not the specific) want to. It is the freedom to murder/rape/steal, just because you want to. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:22:01 +0800 From: Mike Mundy Subject: IN> Vessel Variation Hi Everyone, This is my first post to the In Nomine list, so play nice. :) This is essentially a repost of some ideas about varying Vessels which I've previously posted to rec.games.frp.gurps and rec.games.frp.misc. Some of these suggestions are courtesy of the Charming and Intelligent Pee Kitty, back on the gurps group. In particular, it's intended to address varying Vessel abilities to reflect the abilities of animals, such as cat Vessels or dog Vessels. The descriptions of dogs and cats etc. given in the rulebook are perfectly fine as long as they are just being possessed as Hosts, or are just being used as stats for ordinary animals. However, the description aren't much good for actual Vessels; ie. a typical celestial will have the same Strength, Agility, and Body hits in a weeny cat Vessel as in a human Vessel, and won't be any better at climbing or fighting. Enough preamble; if you want the whole rationale, go have a look at rec.games.frp.gurps. You'll note that both these sets of suggestions are "inefficient"; ie. a modified Vessel will be weaker overall than an unmodified Vessel. This is basically an anti-munchkin initiative; hopefully these rules would encourage people to only modify their Vessels for roleplaying reasons. - - Proposed rules #1: Vessel Abilities Conversion Rate Table Gain 1 Strength => Lose 2 Agility Lose 2 Strength => Gain 1 Agility Gain 1 Agility => Lose 2 Strength Lose 2 Agility => Gain 1 Strength Gain 4 Body Hits => Lose 1 Agility Lose 4 Body Hits => Gain 1 Agility Gain 2 Skill points* => Lose 1 Agility or 1 Strength Gain 1 Charisma => Costs +2 character points, or Lose 1 Agility, 1 Strength, 4 Body Hits, or 1 Protection Lose 1 Charisma => Gain 2 Skill* or Role points, or Gain 1 Agility, 1 Strength, 4 Body Hits, or 1 Protection Gain 1 Protection => Lose 1 Agility Gain 1 Power => Lose 1 Agility Lose 1 Power => Gain 1 Agility *: These skills are only useable when in the Vessel that paid for them. These skills are also limited to those that might normally be inherent to an animal's body, including Running, Fighting, Climbing, Dodging, Acrobatics, Swimming, etc. Vessel-inherent Skills and normal Skills are *cumulative*, but if the sum of the character's normal Skill plus the Vessel's inherent Skill is greater than 6, *double* the cost of every point of the Vessel's Skill over 6. - - Proposed rules #2; A simpler and more general alternative: Conversion rates: 1 Agility = 1 Strength = 1 Power = 1 Protection = 1 Charisma = 2 Skill Points = 2 Role Points = 4 Body Hits Conversion surcharge: +1 character point to the cost of the Vessel for every 10 changes made (as per the above list) (ie. converting 8 Strength Points and -2 Power into 5 Agility Points and 10 Skill Points would increase the Vessel's final cost by +1 character point. ) How's that look? Suggestions, modifications, and incoherent abuse are all welcome. ;) Mike. - ------------------------------------- Michael Mundy email: mikem@psy.uwa.edu.au University of Western Australia (But definitely not Australian, mind you) Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/5281/ - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:20:57 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: Soldiers and songs (Was Re: IN> Soldiers, Undead, You know...) On Tue, 19 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Hmph. If you want to argue how the mechanics arise from the > background, then you get to do it yourself. If your worldview > doesn't mesh with mine, I can't do much. Actually, I use the rules as written. I was just curious about the justification. I found it to be a little...lacking, I guess. No harm done. I'll just come up with my own reasons for my campaign, if anyone ever asks. > (Besides, I'm working with what I was given -- and some of it, > like the *&T^*&^ dream-Soldiers, got in during the Line Editor > Interregnum. If I'd been doing it then, they *wouldn't exist*, > or at least not so trivially.) Oh. Well, then. Forgive me if I seemed snippy. I didn't realize it was a mess you got dumped in your lap. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 06:43:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> Mel Blac was a Kyriotate My fiance and i had an interesting conversation this evening. What choirs or bands would various old film and radio stars be? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:53:02 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith >all of her daughters are given the choice at creation of binding to >a Prince (whereupon the Prince owes Lilith), owing Lilith a few favors >for their creation (9 weeks is pretty cheap...) 9 weeks _is_ very cheap, given that they are immortal beings. I'm a bit uncomfortable with free lilim, just because they have so many advantages (social advantages as well as fairly simple dissonance conditions -- they're rare, well-treated, generally pampered etc) and so few disadvantages compared with pretty much every other band/ superior. Yes, the geases can be a real disadvantage but after all, its only 9 weeks... Compare with any other demon which pretty much has to do what its superior tells it to in any case. Plus the fact that they can easily wander around and tell people that they aren't evil, they're just misunderstood. It has to be the easiest lifestyle in hell. No wonder they get smug. I know Hell isn't supposed to be fair but it just irks me ;) I found this when I was discussing backgrounds with someone who is playing one IMG. Even allowing for a few extra geases to pay for rent in Shal-Mari, having been set up by more experienced demons, and the odd trinket, a free lilim will tend to come out ahead and only have to work when it feels like it. Especially when you add in the fact that they tend to be well trained in bargaining so will often come out ahead in deals with other demons (I've been assuming that princes who want to hire the lilim to do some work on earth will include a vessel as part of the deal, or maybe haggle for a month of service instead of a week in return for the vessel -- still not an overwhelming price to pay). jo ' And in a way I'm yearning to be done with all this measuring of truth. An eye for an eye and a truth for a truth. And anyway I told the truth, but I'm afraid I told a lie.' -- Nick Cave (The Mercy Seat) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 05:29:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Tether Ready for Construction! OK, I remember Titus willing to help me make a tether, but who was the other guy? Make yourself heard! Send me an email! Graveyard Greg, Forgetful Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:19:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa While the book does describe the geasa Free Lilim owe Lilith for creating them as 9 Geas/3, remember that geasa can be combined, making 4 Geas/6 + 1 Geas/3, which would make it 4 years and 1 week. Still a good deal for 9 Forces, but remember that Mom might sell those geasa to *anyone*. A Demon Prince working against your temporary employer, an Archangel, an ethereal spirit, etc. This can get you in hot water. Lilith can also call the geasa in at any time, which may cause you dissonance if Mom's geas conflicts with the one you're working on. Now consider that Free Lilim have to pay for a Vessel (and I don't think this would be cheap: the Limbo rules say that a decent Vessel costs hundreds of Essence if paid getting out of Limbo, and I assume it would be expensive for Demon Princes too). And if residing in Hell they have to pay to stay at the Guildhouse. I would also rule that they have no internal passport and would have to pay to be able to travel between Principalities. I suspect any Freedom Tethers cost to go to and from Earth, and unless you're on a job, so will any other Tethers. Unemployed Free Lilim have no co-workers who can bail them out of a jam, either on Earth or in Hell. Sure, other Frees will help ... for a price. Mom might, but *she'll* charge too. All that aside, a careful Free Lilim probably has an advantage getting ahead ... until it comes to getting a Word. I think it would be very difficult, and VERY expensive, for a Free Lilim to get a Word without binding to a Prince. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:31:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa I'm not sure, but I *think* Lilith as portrayed in IN is a supernatural Libertarian -- member of a political party that wants a minimum of government interference and the maximum freedom of the individual in an environment of unregulated capitalism. Sure sounds like Lilith to me. Lilith and the Lilim carry over from traditional folklore her role as femme fatale. Behind *that* is an even nastier figure responsible for night terrors and crib deaths. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:58:57 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Saints (Brigid in particular) Shadowcat wrote: > Now bring it BACK to In Nomine, has anyone tried to do some of > the various seigh as etherials? Yes. IMC Branadel is a member of the Seigh that works for Blandine. He is something of a manservant/gentleman's gentleman/trickster. He has a number of songs allowing him to do the classic glamour stuff (change form/illusions) as well as all the dream songs. He also has a couple of minor ethereal artifacts. He has worked rather well, but has le to a few questions from the players as to who/what exactly he is, and I haven't told them. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:12:18 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: IN> Funny IN scene - actually happened Painting the Scene: Sheriah, Mercurian of the Wind, is in a museum party in his role as a PI. He is attempting to get dirt on a high ranking governement official that the PCs have reason to believe has had some diabolical dealings (very long story, trust me). The other PCs are outside the museum (as they could not get invites and didn't want to cause a commotion... yet). The Pcs outside include: Adrian, Seraph of Flowers; Cephas, Malakim of Stone; Neiel, Ophanim of Creation in service to Yves; and Urijah, Cherub of Fire. The outsiders discover that there is an item in the exhibit that the party is taking place in that is likely an ancient artifact that was just unearthed. Cephas uses a nearby payphone to call Sheriah on his cellphone to let him know. It should be noted that all the waiting around has made Neiel a bit hyper, but not too bad. As it came to pass: Cephas (role Larry) calls and Sheriah (role Max) answers. Max answers, "Yes." "Is this Max," asks Larry. "Yes." "Great," says Neiel (aka Neal), "Just checking," and hangs up the phone. Another call takes place a few minutes later when all the players stop laughing in which the situation is expalined to Max and a plan is devised to discover/deal with the artifact. I awarded Neiel an extra character point for bringing the game to a halt in a totally appropriate in-character method that was funny as (excuse the pun) hell. Just had to share, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:08:27 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question Walter Milliken wrote: > [...] I believe part of it was > that he actually > assimilated the Forces of the people he took over, not just possessed > them normally. "My name is Legion for we are many." Lower your shields and prepare to be boarded. We will add your distinctive make-up into our own. Resistance is futile. Elizabeth McCoy also wrote: > [...] There are some implications here and there that > he was possessing *more* than other Princes could. (No ref.; > implications are unpublished.) > Well, there's the mention of possessing entire villages. That seemed a bit oogie to me and hadn't pictured any of the Superiors going about things in that way. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:19:43 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Rob Kidd wrote: > >From the terminal of Pee Kitty: > >> >This is ridiculous. Summoning a Superior because you're in a fight is like >> >caling 911 because your kid scraped his knee. They're likely to let you >> >off with a warning the first time, without actually doing anything to >> >help, and if it turns out to REALLY be serious, they'll pitch in, but if >> >you do it a few times or more, you'll just piss THEM off. > >To which, Neel Krishnaswami did reply: > >> Why is it ridiculous for a demon prince to get rid of the only beings >> who can summon a credible threat to him? Certainly, a Prince will >> torture anyone he feels summoned him frivolously, but he's certainly >> not going to put himself at risk, not when he can hurt his servants >> without the risk. (As before, I'll assume angels are the PCs for clarity.) > What stops a Demon Prince from snuffing a group of PCs upon arrival? Well, >one reason could be that the PCs are small-fry, but that might trivialize many >a player's fragile ego. The PCs are small fry, but they can summon someone who isn't. That's the problem. If the PCs were strong enough to stand up to a Prince, they don't need to call on their archangel. And by "stand up to" I mean "have the ability to persist in their actions for one or two rounds after the Prince appears, even if said Prince doesn't want them too." It's not a high standard, but it's a big step up from total helplessness. If a Prince can only obliterate 2 or 3 PCs a round, they have a chance -- but as written he can vaporize them all instantly. (Don't think so? Imagine a Superior-level Song of Ethereal Motion. Add half-a-dozen steak knives. Six dead PCs. Instantly. If there are more PCs, bring along more steak knives.) >Another might be that the Prince sees more value in >making an impression or dropping something that would raise Doubt in a PC's >mind about the side he has chosen -- enemies that you turn become allies >instead of corpses. Yet another might be that even if the angelic PCs pulled >off a summoning of one of their superiors ... who is to say the archangel would >attack the prince? A few of the scenes I've seen in the books have had enemy >superiors scowling at each other meaningfully through a crowd of people, which >I believe has more style than whipping out the claws and eviscerating each >other. Of course I agree that the result of a direct battle between Superiors is enormous and bad. However, there are enough archangels who are willing to tolerate the fallout that results that it is a very dumb move for a summoned Demon Prince to leave angels alone long enough to call on their own Superior. My whole argument is predicated on the notion that most Superiors *don't want* a direct confrontation with another Superior. Destroying the PCs' vessels is the simplest way to ensure that they can't bring an archangel into play; if you want to keep them around for whatever reason, then paralyze them or garble their speech to prevent them from performing their ritual. In any case, the fact of significance is that if a summoned Demon Prince behaves with minimal care, the PCs are no longer able to substantially affect the course of events at all. You can of course deny that any of the Princes behave with minimal care, but that is a hard case to make, I think. For my own game, I am going to lower the base summoning target number by 5, and allow the use of the time modifiers for Songs. This makes summoning Archangels and Demon Princes something usually done very slowly. If you are very desperate you can try to do it fast, but it usually won't work even if you blow all your Essence. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:23:30 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: IN - Lilith All true, of course ;-) But compared to the kinds of things a standard demon has to go through it doesn't seem so restrictive. It isn't as if lilim are the only creatures who can have geases on them -- I'd imagine most demons who work with a lilim for any period of time get hooked eventually (and those geases can just as easily be sold or swapped around). Really, I was just thinking in terms of a standard starting PC which will have 9 geas/3s. Sure the geases could get her into hot water (in fact, its almost obligatory on the GM to make sure they do, I'd think :) ), but really nastily conflicting geases may count as lilim abuse. Its still only 9 weeks assuming they aren't combined - to maximise the number of people she can be sold to. Unless the PC takes extra geases as a discord. And to actually get the character into the action pretty much requires at least one of those geases being called in at game-start (given that a free lilim is unlikely to want to shift itself unless there are geases involved -- I've found that it is difficult to motivate the character to really involve itself in anything unless there is some definite personal obligation, threat or gain involved, I assume this is typical for frees?). I don't think wordbound is likely to be a consideration here ;) It's really not a big deal -- but I do think it has to be the plum job in hell, especially when you think that a lilim can be busily gathering geases herself on every single mission with which to bargain back at the guildhall jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:24:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question Even if other Superiors CAN do what Legion did, they DON'T, because it would upset the general cold war strategy both sides are following. Maintaining cold war posture was important enough to Hell to make it join forces with Heaven and turn against Legion. I think a desire on both sides to avoid escalation is the best rationale for keeping Superiors from hogging the stage. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:46:43 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > The PCs are small fry, but they can summon someone who isn't. That's > the problem. If the PCs were strong enough to stand up to a Prince, > they don't need to call on their archangel. > [...] > (Don't think so? Imagine a Superior-level Song of Ethereal Motion. Add > half-a-dozen steak knives. Six dead PCs. Instantly. If there are more > PCs, bring along more steak knives.) Yes. Quite lethal. > Of course I agree that the result of a direct battle between Superiors > is enormous and bad. However, there are enough archangels who are willing > to tolerate the fallout that results that it is a very dumb move for a > summoned Demon Prince to leave angels alone long enough to call on their > own Superior. My whole argument is predicated on the notion that most > Superiors *don't want* a direct confrontation with another Superior. Right. I suppose it's just a matter of taste on how to handle it. My arguement was predicated on the notion that a celestial should think twice about summoning a superior in the first place. (i.e. the demon that's calling his boss that makes cause for the angels to call theirs) That's why I was coming up with reasons for the DP not to attack the angels upon arrival. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:54:45 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions In a message dated 5/20/98 4:58:43 PM, hailes@senet.com.au writes: >Now what does that leave me with, oh yeah, Lilith, Saminga, Valefor and >Vapula (I decided to get this all finished in one go). > Lilith: Iman (I think that's her name-the androgynous black model) Saminga: Rutger Hauer or Sir Anthony Hopkins Valefor: Timothy Dalton or Antonio Banderas Vapula: John Lithgow or "Q" from the Bond films (IIRC, it's always been the same actor) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:25:39 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> When To Summon, When They Appear (Re: Cajun-Style Blackened-Superior) At 9:04 PM -0400 5/19/98, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Tue, 19 May 1998, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >> On Tue, 19 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> > ("Corner the Lilim till she yells for Mommy, and then she pays >> > the summoning-geas and I can have a chat with Lilith")... >> I like it. Need to be sure that the Lilim yells for Mommy instead of her > so do i. > >> Superior (for Bound Lilim) or her contract-holder (for Free Lilim working >> for Demon Princes.) But I like it. >> >> Lilith would either be amused or angered, depending on whether or not she >> considered it Lilim-abuse. > the other thing to consider--probably more important to some PCs >and less to others--is what happens to the Lilim afterwards? is she let >go, or does Lilith obliterate this incompetent servitor? even if the >Lilim had been faithful and useful before, i'm *sure* Lililth wouldn't let >such things occur more than once. if word got out that all you have to do >to get a chat with Lilith is rough up her daughters... that would be a Bad >Thing. therefore, if the poor Lilim isn't toast, she either gets a >reputation because of what someone did to her, and people/celestials >target her for the same treatment, or worse, target her sisters, too. i >imagine Lilith wouldn't allow such a thing to become widespread, but what >to do in order to prevent this... hmm. perhaps the one who got to talk to >Lilith in this way would have to swear secrecy as to what s/he's done. Well, first and foremost, at the point of the Summoning, the Lilim has promised much more to Lilith than you have. So Lilith will tend to be more likely to take her side if such a conflict of interests occurs. After all, the Lilim summoned her, not you. The lightest you are likely to get off with, in this situation is "This bastard wants to talk to you, Mom! Make him pay through the nose!" Second, if you're roughing up the Lilim with intent to get her to Summon Lilith, and you happen to let this slip, all she has to do is knock those mirrorshades off your face and look for the Need "To have Lilith appear." Then, when Mom shows up, the Lilim offers the Geas on you to Lilith, as a mitigating factor for the geas she promised to get Lilith there. If your Need ot have Lilith show up is of sufficient level, it may pay off her Summoning Debt entirely. And you may wind up worse off than if you'd just summoned her yourself. Mmm, probably not. That -6 is pretty hefty. All in all, it's probably a lot less troublesome to contact the lilim, tell her "I want you to Summon Lilith for me." and hand yourself over for the Geas, supplying the neccesary extra Essence yourself. = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 11:29 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question > do you suppose there >will ever be a Canon adventure where PC's get to play some part in >defeating Legion, or, shoch horror, help him? I don't know, but I'd tend to doubt it -- it's the kind of plot where it's difficult for PCs to make a difference. It took the combined Superiors of both sides to take him down, along with Raphael's sacrifice. That doesn't sound like PC action to me. Historical plots are tricky, anway, since you don't want to invalidate future events. This leads to players not seeing that the PC actions necessarily make much of a difference. I've been thinking about ways to get around this -- we'll probably want to do some canon historical stuff for PC adventures at some point. But I can't see doing Legion, though maybe something from just after, cleaning up, might work well. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 11:34 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Superior Question >Even if other Superiors CAN do what Legion did, they DON'T, because >it would upset the general cold war strategy both sides are >following. Canon now is that they *can't*, unless someone re-invents whatever trick Legion used. > Maintaining cold war posture was important enough >to Hell to make it join forces with Heaven and turn against Legion. Possibly, but I think Legion's spectacular growth in power was what scared the Princes into cooperating. >I think a desire on both sides to avoid escalation is the best >rationale for keeping Superiors from hogging the stage. This is certainly one good way. If I had Superiors showing up confronting each other, most of them would probably just growl a bit at each other, pull their Servitors back, and leave. A few of the most warlike might battle with each other, if they met directly, but probably no more than to test the other's strength. Also, I believe Michael and Baal are *not* supposed to fight each other until Armageddon, in canon. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #790 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.