From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 22 16:13:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16051 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 16:13:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA14808 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 16:07:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:07:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199805222107.QAA14808@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #793 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 793 In this digest: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> Demon Prince Auditions- the list! Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials Swipe (was Re: IN> Summoning Superiors) Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials IN> Two questions, two comments (Superiors) IN> Time travlin' PC's IN> gaming gropus & GURPS Re: IN> gaming gropus & GURPS Re: IN> Two questions, two comments (Superiors) Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> When to Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> Mel Blac was a Kyriotate Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa Re: IN> Demon Prince Auditions- the list! Re: IN> Two questions, two comments (Superiors) IN> Artifact Concept Re: IN> Two questions, two comments (Superiors) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:54:15 +0200 From: Rene Kragh Pedersen Subject: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Robb Kidd wrote: [...] > Right. I suppose it's just a matter of taste on how to handle it. My > arguement was predicated on the notion that a celestial should think twice about > summoning a superior in the first place. [...] Speaking of summoning superiors, I (a Mercurian of the Wind) somehow happen to be the one between our group of angels who calls on his archangel the most. And often to save our collective butts :) One particular event gave rise to an interesting question: What happens to objects that are swiped? I swiped a time bomb and I seem to recall doing some bizarre ritual as well, _and_ blowing all my essence to get ahold of the good Janus. When he came I told him I'd swiped a time bomb and desperately needed to know what would happen in - oh - 2 minutes and 16 seconds from now? (it's worth a mention that we were all stuck on a ferry between Denmark and Norway, and the bomb was supposedly rather powerful). What happened was that Janus tore a small hole "in reality" - a sort of black hole - and took out the bomb from nowhere. He closed the hole and neutralized the bomb for us, said "good job", gave me back some essence, and took off. My question remains: Where did the bomb go when I swiped it, and was the clock still ticking? Regards, - -- Rene Kragh Pedersen - ------------------------------------------------------------------ What incredible irony! | If you strangle a smurf, - Kyle. | what colour will its face be? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 05:10:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 10:24 PM +0900 5/20/98, Simon Hailes wrote: > > >Now what does that leave me with, oh yeah,Lilith, Saminga, Valefor and > >Vapula (I decided to get this all finished in one go). > > Lilith. Um. Whatshername, who does Captain Janeway on Star Trek: Veeger. > Why? Because, well, I finally figured it out. She did the voice of > Titania on the _Gargoyles_ cartoon (the first two seasons were cool!). She did? Hmmmm...I guess she did! :) And the first two seasons DID rule...tremendously! It was extremely cohesive...Great writing...A lot of shows could take lessons from Gargoyles. So what happened to it? Did the third season stink that badly? Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation (and just to stay in the In Nomine mode..go check out the conversion rules for GARGOYLES on the In Nomine Collection! :) ) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:15:43 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >On Thu, 21 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> Of course I agree that the result of a direct battle between Superiors >> is enormous and bad. However, there are enough archangels who are willing >> to tolerate the fallout that results that it is a very dumb move for a >> summoned Demon Prince to leave angels alone long enough to call on their >> own Superior. My whole argument is predicated on the notion that most >> Superiors *don't want* a direct confrontation with another Superior. > >Why not just leave? There's nothing that keeps the Superior there after >it's been summoned. If it suspects that the opposition will try to summon >their own Superior, it could just pop back home and let its incompetent >underlings get out of trauma by themselves. :) If it takes minimal effort to put an ordinary celestial in trauma, then the Prince can take out the angels, and punish its servitors itself, for virtually the same effort as simply leaving the scene. So it is better for the Prince to put the angels in trauma because this way the superior's plans won't be ruined, and the angels are out of the picture for a little while. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:24:40 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith David Edelstein wrote: > The degree > to which other Superiors will avoid "abusing" Lilim is only the degree to > which they like having Lilim in their service or find it advantageous to > continue doing business with Lilith. *nod* I'm thinking something similar ;) I'll probably set things up so that Lilith actually doesn't give a toss about what happens to her daughters, unless it specifically impacts on her. If the daughter has been doing good work for her and she stands to lose some decent geases then she'll shift herself. If the daughter whines a lot and offers to pay well then she'll shift herself. Having zero notion of responsibility or accountability (except of course when other people should be responsible for stuff she wants doing), she also isn't the most sympathetic of DPs to her own servitors. She'll probably end up being like one of those trailer park queens who just hangs out in her nice trailer in Shal-Mari, watching TV and stuffing her face with (non-fattening) marshmallows, and guilt-tripping, nagging or geasing her daughters to run round doing stuff for her and keeping her in hair-curlers ;) They even bear all the brunt of maintaining her word for her! It may turn out to be an apathetic kind of freedom, "Yeah, right, whatever. Do what you want, but don't get in my light." The main reason for a prince to avoid getting a reputation for lilim abuse is because the other free lilim will put the word about at the guildhouse. Lilith doesn't really care, but she won't stop them from deciding to boycott a prince for a few months if that's what they want to do. After all, it will probably increase the market value when the frees get bored of it and decide to start working for him/her again. I also think (with a nod to Walter) that I will say that its really quite rare (and hard work) for a free lilim to get any prince's servitor attunement. After all, why should a prince give one of its own attunements to someone who is likely to end up working for one of its enemies at some time, and might use its own attunement against it) when it has so many servitors of its own. Given that a bound lilim is in the prince's service for eternity and only gets one attunement (as a starting PC), even decades of service is quite a cheap price for a free lilim to get the same power. Of course.. she could always bind herself and get the attunement for free, and other freebies as well if the prince likes what she does. Ta. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:56:29 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Auditions- the list! Graveyard Greg sic scribit: > > Hey SImon, send us the entire list so far...I got in nomine players > who want to read the list! :) > NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! I will repeat:- NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! There, I think that's put my own personal opinion across. :-) For the hard of thinking, that is to say that IMHO, the DEmon Prince Auditions thread is a complete tidalwave of niosy, wasteful hyper-fluffy excremental bandwidth. If lots of people *really* want to see it, compile the lot and put it up on a Web Page for all to see. I personally don't want to have a 400-dd line email clogging up my server and annoying my web admins. There endeth the lesson. Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:09:07 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors On Fri, 22 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > >On Thu, 21 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > > >> Of course I agree that the result of a direct battle between Superiors > >> is enormous and bad. However, there are enough archangels who are willing > >> to tolerate the fallout that results that it is a very dumb move for a > >> summoned Demon Prince to leave angels alone long enough to call on their > >> own Superior. My whole argument is predicated on the notion that most > >> Superiors *don't want* a direct confrontation with another Superior. > > > >Why not just leave? There's nothing that keeps the Superior there after > >it's been summoned. If it suspects that the opposition will try to summon > >their own Superior, it could just pop back home and let its incompetent > >underlings get out of trauma by themselves. :) > > If it takes minimal effort to put an ordinary celestial in trauma, then > the Prince can take out the angels, and punish its servitors itself, > for virtually the same effort as simply leaving the scene. So it is > better for the Prince to put the angels in trauma because this way the > superior's plans won't be ruined, and the angels are out of the picture > for a little while. If it takes minimal effort, yes. But who says it does? Even if the Supe can turn them to dust with a thought, this will probably require a lot of Essence. This might also make the Angels' Supe(s) angry, risking to raise the temperature of the War, something most of the Supes want to avoid. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 07:46:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Shumaker Subject: Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials #Subject: Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials As for Historical plots my whole campaign is going to be "historical" I guess. The setting is France in the 1620s. There was so much opportunity there and I really dislike playing in the modern era, unless I am playing IOU. :) Maybe this makes me a lazy GM, but the PCs know too much about the modern era. Its nice to have the world that is well defined but still hazy enough not to be the familiar. - -Jim Shumaker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 98 11:56 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Swipe (was Re: IN> Summoning Superiors) >My question remains: Where did the bomb go when I swiped it, and was the >clock still ticking? In my game, Swipe puts objects into the same sort of "suspended existence" as happens with items carried by a vessel that's been shed. Since vessels don't experience time (e.g., don't heal) when they're not corporeal, then any carried items probably don't, either. (Don't forget to reset your watch every time you get into a new vessel....) In the time bomb case, this means the timer would have the same amount of time remaining when it came out as when it was swiped. Yes, this allows a number of Stupid Swipe Tricks, but the relatively short duration of Swipe should limit them somewhat. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 98 12:04 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Historical plots & time travelling celestials >> >How many are you running already? >> >> Two (sort of -- they intersect a bit) IN campaigns, plus several GURPS >> ones, some of which are on hold for a while. I don't really want >> another entirely new context to try to keep track of.... > >Man alive! Are these all FTF (i.e. real life) campaigns? Different >groups? Do you work? :) They're all phys-world games, yes. We actually game about twice a month at the moment, which is one In Nomine game, and one GURPS. The GURPS game has the same set of players every time, but there are several different campaigns, so when I block on one, I run another for a while. The second In Nomine campaign only runs very intermittently, when we can get together with the other couple (and their kids) who play in it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:01:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Two questions, two comments (Superiors) Q1: It has been established that Superiors are way too busy doing things vastly more important than whatever the PCs are doing to get involved in their affairs. What are the Superiors doing? Administration seems a waste of their talents. Q2: I realize this has been discussed before, but I'm not sure it was ever resolved: How many Celestials are out there? (This is complementary to the first question, as managing Servitors will take up some of many Superiors' time, although the Cosmic Importance of this escapes me.) Comment1: Superiors apparantly do not mind being summoned to chat occasionally. (UIM imply that 1/month to 1/year is normal, since that gives no modifier to the roll.) I find it hard to swallow that they'd mind being summoned at a similar frequency to opportunities to turn a mjoor confrontation with the enemy and promote their Word to boot. (Assuming PCs are supporting their Superior's Word.) It is argued that calling for backup will make the PCs seem incompetent in their Superior's eyes. Considering the PCs job description (roughly "special agent") I find this hard to swallow. PCs who *didn't* get in over their heads now and then are not trying hard enough. The sides are roughly matched, after all. This resultis in the "take your Truama/dissonance and smile" philosophy, which implies that whatever the Superior is doing is more important than ensuring that whatever the PCs are trying to accomplish comes to pass. (Which takes us back to Q1.) Related point: what about non-Sup backup? I suspect calling in a "malak strike" would not be unreasonable. Comment2: For the reasons roughed out above, I prefer some other explanation of why Superiors keep out of PC affairs. "This is a cold war, and the Sups are the big guns" seems to be the second most popular explanation. It hinges on their being a good reason for hte cold war, but I think that is easily satisfied by: "AAs are afraid of massive Symphonic damage, and DPs are just afraid." and similar lines of argument. Certainly Sups are comparable to nukes, the source of the RL Cold War. What worries me about this is that a) Certain AAs and DPs are not very rational. A couple are outright psycho. b) AAs and DPs apparantly show up on the Corp. Plane in person to talk to their Servitors quite regularly, making a big honking Disturbance when they do so. This seems to be outright provacative to me, especially if (unknown to the summoner) there are things important to the other side going down within hearing distance. How many Cuban missile crises can you have? Note that Cold War IN severely limits confrontation with the enemy. Great for some, intolerable for others. Is there a good third option for limiting Superior hijacking? Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:13:55 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Ryan Beall) Subject: IN> Time travlin' PC's >If I ever do the time travelling celestials bit, I'll probably do it as a >single adventure in an existing campaign. (The members of the as-yet-to-get >started INB campaign can scratch their heads at this one.) That's what I did. I ran an expanded adv based off of Beth's Vap to the Future! adventure. The PC's, sent by Jean, went back in time to stop some renegade Techies (though the PC's didnt' know they were Renegade at the time) who were changing things. It was a fairly intersting adventure, especially when the PC's decided to go back in time another 4 days, after they had been in the past for 3. I was able to have them witness a few things they had done the first time they were there, and by use of NPC's that went with them, they were able to do some pretty funky stuff. And they NEVER suspected I'd have my own character(we rotate the GM slot) be possessed by a Shedite. Very interesting. And in regards to an older post by Beth....in a little free form fun... - ----------- >Basically, 'gray Renegades' are those who 'do good' but for some >reason, don't want to go Bright. I started with Lilim and expanded. >Hopefully, it will be a Pyramid article sometime... (Subscribe! >Subscribe!) > >Shedim have a hard time, yes. hehe, I've been semi-playing a Shedite of the Game who Fell in love with a Bright Lilim he was sent to bring back to Hell. After a few ....misunderstandings involving cooked feline, a shotgun, and the Lilim's reliever, he started to be a really nice guy....The lilim and the reliever don't seem to buy it...but he's trying. - --------------- Gotta love them Shedim. Ryan Beall aka: Grim88 Look for me in #innomine on Efnet rbeall@fdldotnet.com grim88@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~Grim88/index.html <---Follow the link to the "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. #innomine web page. Comedy is when you fall through an open sewer and die." - Mel Brooks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> gaming gropus & GURPS > >Man alive! Are these all FTF (i.e. real life) campaigns? Different > >groups? Do you work? :) > > They're all phys-world games, yes. We actually game about twice a month > at the moment, which is one In Nomine game, and one GURPS. The GURPS > game has the same set of players every time, but there are several > different campaigns, so when I block on one, I run another for a while. > The second In Nomine campaign only runs very intermittently, when we can > get together with the other couple (and their kids) who play in it. Ah, excellent, that's a good way to do it. (Swapping between games from one session to the next... it lets those who want to play lots of different genres do so without killing the GM under a weight of continual preparation.) Top bring this back to something relevant to the list: speaking of GURPS and In Nomine in the same paragraph, as anybody on the list actually played IN using the GURPS IN conversions by Sjohn? My sense is that the GURPS ruleset is too "complete" and realistic to really capture the tone of IN. (However, I'm also of the opinion that the GM and players in question have a lot more to do with the tone of the game than the mechanics in use.) - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:28:20 -0500 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> gaming gropus & GURPS The GURPS rules were tried very successfully by a gaming group at Carleton College when they first came out. The GM _really_ disliked the way that the mechanics had turned out (I seem to recall he had been in contact with Derek about the game and had been disappointed with the final outcome once it had left Derek's hand), so he used the IN->GURPS rules - he liked them and everybody in the group enjoyed playing. - -Drew [O] Drew Johnson - CLA - Office of Info Tech [O] x5-4885 - http://www.econ.umn.edu/~djohnson/ [O] djohnson@cla.umn.edu - ICQ: 10800645 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 98 14:35 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Two questions, two comments (Superiors) >Q2: I realize this has been discussed before, but I'm not sure it was >ever resolved: How many Celestials are out there? I believe there is no canon answer to this, and it may be an Area of Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. I've been assuming for my own campaign that the average Superior has something on the order of 10,000 "fledged" Servitors. This fits in roughly with my own value of 1 "fledged" celestial per 10,000 population, including all major Superiors on both sides. However, I use that figure for corporeal-service Servitors, so there might be several times that number in the celestial realm. >b) AAs and DPs apparantly show up on the Corp. Plane in person to talk to >their Servitors quite regularly, making a big honking Disturbance when >they do so. This assumes they are summoned from the celestial plane, rather than simply changing the position of a vessel in the corporeal. Not all Superior visitations are noisy, though if a Superior is only in the celestial plane when summoned, or has no corporeal instance available, it *will* be noisy... or the Superior will decline to show up. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:10:44 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Lilith Walter Milliken wrote: > Except for recruiting, there remains the question of why a DP would > *want* to hire a Free Lilim. Frees may have serious problems with > getting attunements and other things (perhaps even Songs) that require > Princely powers. A starting Free Lilim may not have very useful skills, > compared to any bound Lilim the Prince has. So you can justify most > low-power Frees getting stuck working for other demons (such as other > PCs) in exchange for future favors, or maybe Essence, or the odd > lower-power artifact, or help with a Role. > > Some DPs may hire Frees for small, odd jobs, just "on spec". Andre > might hire a lot of Frees, but they may not get more than a Role out of > it, and a good opportunity to hook lots of humans. And maybe *someday* > his Lilim attunement. > > Princes have a lot of Servitors to draw on; for them to hire a Free, the > Free needs to have important skills, powers, contacts or information > which the DP's own Servitors lack, or he has to be fairly short-handed. > Both of these probably happen often enough, but it's also not easy to > bargain with a Prince.... > Independence Day had a very good reason for this: Plausible Deniability. "If you or any member of the IMF is captured, the DP will disavow all knowledge of you and your actions." This is the leave-no-fingerprints school of demonhood. In the end, there are only two rules of The Game: 1] subvert Heaven/reinforce Hell; and 2] don't get caught doing it! tom t. {unwritten rule 1.1] make your self as strong as you possibly can get while doing so} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:11:38 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> When to Summon, When They Appear Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >On Thu, 21 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> Favored servitors like the PCs presumably have a good idea of the cost >> of the AA's time, and are more likely to get big missions of high >> importance. > >They're also supposed to be able to take care of themselves without coming >running to the Boss every time things get a bit hairy. I've been arguing that this attitude is not consistent with what the game mechanics say is possible. One or the other has to give, or things don't make sense. >> Much of the time PCs can't retreat. >> >> A cherub guarding someone; any servant of Michael; any Malakim or angels >> of David who can't abandon their friends -- the list goes on and on. > >For these it's not a question of being -unable- to retreat. It's a choice >between Trauma and taking some dissonance. Not exactly a win-win >situation, but there's still a choice. I'm probably going to say this badly, but many of these characters would have to break character to run. For angels of David, it's not technically dissonant to abandon a friend in a fight (it's no ranged attacks and don't hit first, IIRC), but would likely be a betrayal of everything he believes in and everything David stands for to abandon a friend to a Demon Prince. It's very often not even in their imagination of the possible to do something like that -- the thought of abandoning a friend for mere personal survival simply won't occur to them. >> This means it's a good idea either to make Superiors harder to get >> ahold of or to make the PCs strong enough to survive them. (I've >> chosen the former for my game, since it's easier to implement.) > >Another solution is to make it less attractive to summon your Superior. If >it wasn't a -really- vital situation, that the characters had absolutely >- -no- way of handling without help, it might show up, solve their >problem... and then strip them of a Force each. Or let them know, in no >uncertain terms, that the next time they summon it without a -very- good >reason - say, averting the Apocalypse, or the return of Legion - they will >be given some less stressful duties for a couple of centuries. Like making >the grass grow. (If you want to make sure your players understand you can >say "If you summon David again your character will be gone. Capiche?") This is very easy to accept for Demon Princes, but harder to justify for Archangels -- all moral relativity aside, they are basically the good guys. Since the problem remains as long as it's easy for *either* side to call on a Superior (NPCs can summon too!), this is insufficient, unfortunately. OTOH, if angels can call on their bosses with less trepidation than demons, then it makes IN conform more closely to the source material, by giving a reason why even very powerful demons would be afraid of challenging even very weak angels. IIRC, Augustine wrote that the lowest orders of heavenly spirits were able to call upon the powers of the higher, and in fact had to do so in order to perform miracles and exorcise demons. This is pretty much compatible with that claim. (Or was it Origen?) >I really don't think this is a problem that requires rules-changes, unless >you absolutely want the Supes to be really intent on destroying opposing >Celestials without a second thought - an attitude I don't think meshes >well with what's described in the various books and fiction pieces. What I want is sensible behavior on the part of PCs and NPCs alike, and I want this to yield something gameable. I don't think the rules as they stand help me achieve this. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Mel Blac was a Kyriotate - ---Shadowcat wrote: > > My fiance and i had an interesting conversation this evening. What choirs > or bands would various old film and radio stars be? > > Shadowcat I dunno about OLD film stars...but I thik Tim Curry would be a Kyriotate... Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:02:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa MarkDEddy writes: >In Nomine at least *tries* to address the sweeping theological and personal >issues of monotheism, a refreshing change from the 'God of the Week Club' >fantasy role playing games or the "Atheism 'R' Us" science fiction role >playing games or the "Why worry about an afterlife?" horror role playing >games. From what I've seen, it would be fairer to characterize horror RPGs as "Hope that there *isn't* an afterlife, because if there is, then death is no escape." >I can name (perhaps) four systems which even come close to matching my most >basic, stripped down theology. They are: Fantasy War-gaming (nearly impossible >to play), Ars Magica (whose Grog/Mage system is annoying), In Nomine (which is >fun to play), and The Rapture (which I haven't had a chance to carefully work >with). For me, one of the attractions of IN is the challenge of working within a system that's so extremely *different* from my personal philosophy and theology. I had begun to wonder if I was so canalized in my thinking that I insisted that even fiction and fantasy had to conform to my opinions of reality before I could enjoy them; IN offers an opportunity to stretch some mental muscles that had gotten stiff. I can't see restricting one's preference in games on the basis of the underlying metaphysics. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Auditions- the list! - ---"David.Evans" wrote: > > Graveyard Greg sic scribit: > > > > Hey SImon, send us the entire list so far...I got in nomine players > > who want to read the list! :) > > > To which David.Evans forcefully replied: > NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! > > I will repeat:- NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! > > There, I think that's put my own personal opinion across. :-) For the > hard of thinking, that is to say that IMHO, the DEmon Prince Auditions > thread is a complete tidalwave of niosy, wasteful hyper-fluffy > excremental bandwidth. If lots of people *really* want to see it, > compile the lot and put it up on a Web Page for all to see. I personally > don't want to have a 400-dd line email clogging up my server and annoying > my web admins. There endeth the lesson. > > > Be seeing you... > > David. > Heh. I don't think Simon (or whoever is responsible for this auditioning) would be so cruel as to send the entire list on the listserv...He hopefully will send it to me privately. Right, Simon? C'mon--back me up here! Didn't mean to worry ya, David! Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:16:22 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Two questions, two comments (Superiors) Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: > Q1: It has been established that Superiors are way too busy doing > things vastly more important than whatever the PCs are doing to get > involved in their affairs. What are the Superiors doing? Administration > seems a waste of their talents. > > Q2: I realize this has been discussed before, but I'm not sure it was > ever resolved: How many Celestials are out there? (This is complementary > to the first question, as managing Servitors will take up some of many > Superiors' time, although the Cosmic Importance of this escapes me.) > > Comment1: Superiors apparantly do not mind being summoned to chat > occasionally. (UIM imply that 1/month to 1/year is normal, since that > gives no modifier to the roll.) I find it hard to swallow that they'd > mind being summoned at a similar frequency to opportunities to > turn a mjoor confrontation with the enemy and promote their Word to > boot. (Assuming PCs are supporting their Superior's Word.) > > It is argued that calling for backup will make the PCs seem incompetent > in their Superior's eyes. Considering the PCs job description (roughly > "special agent") I find this hard to swallow. PCs who *didn't* get in > over their heads now and then are not trying hard enough. The sides are > roughly matched, after all. My comments against calling a Superior for backup is that PCs often develop a dependancy on getting bailed out. There are some situations were it is called for, but on the whole, "special agents" are special because they can do most of their duties on their own. James Bond called in big guns often, but he snuck about, slept with the right person and undermined a thing or two as well. > This resultis in the "take your Truama/dissonance and smile" philosophy, > which implies that whatever the Superior is doing is more important than > ensuring that whatever the PCs are trying to accomplish comes to pass. > (Which takes us back to Q1.) Related point: what about non-Sup backup? > I suspect calling in a "malak strike" would not be unreasonable. A good alternative to calling upon Superiors, I would say. Fits nicely with the James Bond climactic scenes. [pictures the final fight scene in Moonraker] *boggle* > Comment2: For the reasons roughed out above, I prefer some other > explanation of why Superiors keep out of PC affairs. "This is a cold > war, and the Sups are the big guns" seems to be the second most popular > explanation. It hinges on their being a good reason for hte cold > war, but I think that is easily satisfied by: "AAs are afraid of massive > Symphonic damage, and DPs are just afraid." and similar lines of > argument. Certainly Sups are comparable to nukes, the source of the RL > Cold War. [nod] A good second reason. I used the Cold War Hinge because IMG, the idea is to woo humanity, protect or corrupt it according to your approach. Celestials duking it out plays a decent role IMG, it's a satisfying aspect of gaming, but it is usually secondary to what the celestial's duties really are. > a) Certain AAs and DPs are not very rational. A couple are outright > psycho. Yup. Spooky. > b) AAs and DPs apparantly show up on the Corp. Plane in person to talk to > their Servitors quite regularly, making a big honking Disturbance when > they do so. This seems to be outright provacative to me, especially if > (unknown to the summoner) there are things important to the other side > going down within hearing distance. How many Cuban missile crises can > you have? You could roll it like an auditor dropping by. Some angelic Superior shows up in town and the local demons tense up and make sure the hooks they have in people are secure. Some demonic Superior shows up, all the angels clean up their act. > Note that Cold War IN severely limits confrontation with the enemy. > Great for some, intolerable for others. Is there a good third option for > limiting Superior hijacking? Metal detectors and bomb-sniffing dogs? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:38:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: IN> Artifact Concept I still can't make up my mind if this is munchkinizing or simply comic relief; I suppose it could be both, like K.K. Anyway, I thought I'd send it out to the list, so as to get it out of *my* head. This is, of course, a consequence of reading _Liber Reliquarum_. Vapulan Essence Machines Mortals have been known to say "You can't be too thin or too rich." The celestial version is "You can't have too much Essence." Even Superiors, with the ability to channel vast amounts of Essence, chronically need more than they have. One of the reasons Hell goes for quantities is that each individual being creates 1 Essence per day. So naturally, the Demon Prince of Technology would love to mass-produce celestial artifacts that generated Essence and were themselves cheap to create. Failing that, if they turned some readily available corporeal commodity into Essence celestials could tap, that would be almost as good. The first-generation product of this research effort is the Essence Machine, described below. The research project was halted after the first few Essence Machines were built, however: Vapula discovered the hard way that even with all their bugs and drawbacks these devices are enormously useful to Renegades, who are cut off from any Essence regeneration except their natural one and whatever artifacts may provide. Rumor has it, however, that the plans of the Essence Machine were stolen by a Renegade of Theft (or possibly of Dark Humor), and are available for a suitable price; it is one of the few artifacts that a solitary Enchanter, working alone, can create. A typical Essence Machine is a box the size of an industrial microwave oven or dormitory-room refrigerator. It has a capacity of two Essence. It will fill itself after 24 hours of *uninterrupted* access to household line current or comparable electric power. It does not recharge while full -- the recharge time is exactly 24 hours from the last time it was emptied, or the last interruption of power, whichever is more recent. To get the Essence out, one must open the folding front panel and spend about 5-10 minutes adjusting the multitude of dials and verniers -- the gadget seems to be sensitive to every conceivable perturbing influence in the environment, possibly including rainfall rates on the third planet of Alpha Centauri A. One then grasps the two copper handles and uses a third hand to hit the big red "GO" switch. (A user interface designed for people with three hands is a *minor* nuisance by Vapulan design standards. A suitable Numinous Corpus, or the user's nose or forehead, will do in a pinch.) A substantial jolt of electricity zaps through the user's body, doing 1 hit of damage. If the controls were correctly set, it also deposits 2 Essence in the user. Mechanics: Reliquary/1 (3 pts Base cost), +1 Essence Capacity (+2), Double Regeneration Rate (+5), Minor Regeneration Condition (-1) [LR notes that rate and conditions are separate categories], 5 minute invocation to use (-2), Does Body hits to user (-2) [1 point of damage as the base artifact is Level 1], Inconvenient Size (-2), Intelligence roll required for use (-1). Total cost 10 - 8 = 2; as this is more than half the base cost of 3, this is a legitimate application of Features as described in LR. If the Intelligence roll is failed, the user just takes the damage and doesn't get the Essence. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:50:56 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Two questions, two comments (Superiors) On Fri, 22 May 1998, Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: > Q1: It has been established that Superiors are way too busy doing > things vastly more important than whatever the PCs are doing to get > involved in their affairs. What are the Superiors doing? Administration > seems a waste of their talents. Planning, coordination, creating new Angels/Demons, conducting research, bickering with the other Supes... > Comment1: Superiors apparantly do not mind being summoned to chat > occasionally. (UIM imply that 1/month to 1/year is normal, since that > gives no modifier to the roll.) I find it hard to swallow that they'd > mind being summoned at a similar frequency to opportunities to > turn a mjoor confrontation with the enemy and promote their Word to > boot. (Assuming PCs are supporting their Superior's Word.) I don't think they'd mind the occasional summoning to turn the tide, but the discussion has been more like "Why not summon your Superior whenever there are opponents nearby?", which is very different, and what will make the game crash, IMO. > It is argued that calling for backup will make the PCs seem incompetent > in their Superior's eyes. Considering the PCs job description (roughly > "special agent") I find this hard to swallow. PCs who *didn't* get in > over their heads now and then are not trying hard enough. The sides are > roughly matched, after all. I'm not sure I agree with this... They aren't -supposed- to get in over their heads. If they do, they're being incompetent. If they stay out of trouble but don't get their work done, they're also incompetent. Which kind is worse depends on how important their current assignment is, I suppose. > This resultis in the "take your Truama/dissonance and smile" philosophy, > which implies that whatever the Superior is doing is more important than > ensuring that whatever the PCs are trying to accomplish comes to pass. > (Which takes us back to Q1.) Related point: what about non-Sup backup? > I suspect calling in a "malak strike" would not be unreasonable. I think this is a good solution. IMO, there's been far too little talk about the rest of the Celestial organization - all that hierarchy that the PC:s get to sidestep. When (if?) I start up the Infernal campaign that I'm working on, I will definitely limit Superior access severely. Not sure how, apart from the DP:s telling the PC:s in no uncertain terms that they expect -not- to be summoned unless it's -extremely- important. > Comment2: For the reasons roughed out above, I prefer some other > explanation of why Superiors keep out of PC affairs. "This is a cold > war, and the Sups are the big guns" seems to be the second most popular > explanation. It hinges on their being a good reason for hte cold > war, but I think that is easily satisfied by: "AAs are afraid of massive > Symphonic damage, and DPs are just afraid." and similar lines of > argument. Certainly Sups are comparable to nukes, the source of the RL > Cold War. Definitely. I don't think the reason is damage to the Symphony, though, but rather to keep the other side from getting too edgy. > What worries me about this is that > a) Certain AAs and DPs are not very rational. A couple are outright > psycho. True, and this is a problem. There aren't that many of those, though - Gabriel, Saminga... Any more? > b) AAs and DPs apparantly show up on the Corp. Plane in person to talk to > their Servitors quite regularly, making a big honking Disturbance when > they do so. This seems to be outright provacative to me, especially if > (unknown to the summoner) there are things important to the other side > going down within hearing distance. How many Cuban missile crises can > you have? OTOH, the PC:s are supposed to know what they're doing when they're summoning their Supe. If they do it in a sensitive situation, they're not being careful enough, and the Supe is well within its rights to discipline them for it. I'm sure it happens from time to time, and that everyone in the vicinity goes on red alert, but if nothing more happens I don't think the reaction need to be any stronger. Also remember that a Supe can show up without making any noise if it wants to. > Note that Cold War IN severely limits confrontation with the enemy. > Great for some, intolerable for others. Is there a good third option for > limiting Superior hijacking? I don't think it limits confrontation with the enemy much, unless you - -want- all-out war. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #793 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.