From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat May 23 16:31:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29538 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:31:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA31926 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:34:17 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 16:34:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199805232134.QAA31926@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #794 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, May 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 794 In this digest: Re: IN> When to Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa IN> The Cake of Evil Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa Re: IN> Lilith IN> First Game Re: IN> The Cake of Evil Re: IN> Demon Prince Auditions- the list! Re: IN> When to Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> When to Summon, When They Appear Re: IN> Summoning Superiors Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions IN> A Cartesian rewrite of the attribute system Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions Re: IN> First Game Re: IN> First Game Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:03:15 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> When to Summon, When They Appear On Fri, 22 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > >On Thu, 21 May 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > > >> Favored servitors like the PCs presumably have a good idea of the cost > >> of the AA's time, and are more likely to get big missions of high > >> importance. > > > >They're also supposed to be able to take care of themselves without coming > >running to the Boss every time things get a bit hairy. > > I've been arguing that this attitude is not consistent with what the > game mechanics say is possible. One or the other has to give, or things > don't make sense. Just because you have great powers it's not necessary to use them. If we liken Supes to nukes, as someone suggested, it's like every spy and agent having the ability to call in a nuclear strike. Does that mean they would do so every once in a while? I don't think so. > >> Much of the time PCs can't retreat. > >> > >> A cherub guarding someone; any servant of Michael; any Malakim or angels > >> of David who can't abandon their friends -- the list goes on and on. > > > >For these it's not a question of being -unable- to retreat. It's a choice > >between Trauma and taking some dissonance. Not exactly a win-win > >situation, but there's still a choice. > > I'm probably going to say this badly, but many of these characters would > have to break character to run. > > For angels of David, it's not technically dissonant to abandon a friend > in a fight (it's no ranged attacks and don't hit first, IIRC), but would > likely be a betrayal of everything he believes in and everything David > stands for to abandon a friend to a Demon Prince. It's very often not > even in their imagination of the possible to do something like that -- > the thought of abandoning a friend for mere personal survival simply > won't occur to them. *shrugs* He should also understand that it will do absolutely no good what so ever to try to fight a DP. It's like trying to stop a tank from running over your friends by standing in front of it. > >> This means it's a good idea either to make Superiors harder to get > >> ahold of or to make the PCs strong enough to survive them. (I've > >> chosen the former for my game, since it's easier to implement.) > > > >Another solution is to make it less attractive to summon your Superior. If > >it wasn't a -really- vital situation, that the characters had absolutely > >- -no- way of handling without help, it might show up, solve their > >problem... and then strip them of a Force each. Or let them know, in no > >uncertain terms, that the next time they summon it without a -very- good > >reason - say, averting the Apocalypse, or the return of Legion - they will > >be given some less stressful duties for a couple of centuries. Like making > >the grass grow. (If you want to make sure your players understand you can > >say "If you summon David again your character will be gone. Capiche?") > > This is very easy to accept for Demon Princes, but harder to justify > for Archangels -- all moral relativity aside, they are basically the > good guys. Since the problem remains as long as it's easy for *either* > side to call on a Superior (NPCs can summon too!), this is insufficient, > unfortunately. Why? Archangels also have to prioritize, and if the Angel in question aren't making good use of that Force, why not give it to someone who's more competent? And AA:s also have a long perspective - if making the grass grow for a couple of centuries will make an Angel more careful and thoughtful, I don't think they'd hesitate to make it do so. > IIRC, Augustine wrote that the lowest orders of heavenly spirits were > able to call upon the powers of the higher, and in fact had to do so > in order to perform miracles and exorcise demons. This is pretty much > compatible with that claim. (Or was it Origen?) No idea. And I think Relievers should be the lowest order of heavenly spirits. :) Besides, I don't think we should take Augustine's word for it. ;) > >I really don't think this is a problem that requires rules-changes, unless > >you absolutely want the Supes to be really intent on destroying opposing > >Celestials without a second thought - an attitude I don't think meshes > >well with what's described in the various books and fiction pieces. > > What I want is sensible behavior on the part of PCs and NPCs alike, and > I want this to yield something gameable. I don't think the rules as > they stand help me achieve this. I think you're focussing too much on the rules, and ignoring the rest of the material. Look at it this way: an ordinary cop (except in the UK and some other places) has a gun when he's on duty, but he very seldom uses it - - if ever. He has it available at all times, and it's a very powerful tool, yet he's very reluctant to use it. I think it should be the same way with summoning your Superior. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:24:32 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa On Fri, 22 May 1998, York H. Dobyns wrote: > For me, one of the attractions of IN is the challenge of working within a > system that's so extremely *different* from my personal philosophy and > theology. I had begun to wonder if I was so canalized in my thinking that > I insisted that even fiction and fantasy had to conform to my opinions of > reality before I could enjoy them; IN offers an opportunity to stretch > some mental muscles that had gotten stiff. I can't see restricting one's > preference in games on the basis of the underlying metaphysics. I quite agree. But then I'm in the habit of stretching my imagination when it comes to these things. :) Personally, I find the idea of all these angels and demons, not to mention God, quite far-fetched, but I still like the game a lot. (And -no-, I do - -not- want to start a religious debate, thankyouverymuch. Just illustrating my statement.) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:51:58 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> The Cake of Evil Anders Sandberg is always good for inspiring and bizarre stuff. Check out "The Cake of Evil" at: http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/Mage/cake - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:01:06 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith, Free Lilim, geasa In a message dated 5/22/98 12:13:18 PM, ydobyns@phoenix.Princeton.EDU writes: >For me, one of the attractions of IN is the challenge of working within >a >system that's so extremely *different* from my personal philosophy and > >theology. I had begun to wonder if I was so canalized in my thinking that > >I insisted that even fiction and fantasy had to conform to my opinions >of >reality before I could enjoy them; IN offers an opportunity to stretch >some mental muscles that had gotten stiff. I can't see restricting one's > >preference in games on the basis of the underlying metaphysics. I *do* play other games: Shadowrun, Paranoia, Star Wars, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Starfire (currently), MERP, Space Master, Star Frontiers, AD&D, Sky Realms of Jorune, Teenagers from Outer Space, BattleTech's MechWarrior, MegaTraveller, and Beyond the Supernatural (ever played *and* own the rules). But I'm a devout Christian, and I want to be an Episcopal Priest sometime soon (given the ordination process, ten years *is* soon...), and my gaming tends to have at least *some* moral tone. We just happen to have hit one of my trigger points. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:56:47 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Lilith Lilith, speaking through the medium of Simon's E-Mail address (she geased me in to it). Now I have heards ome pretty mean things about me on list, like not caring about my daughters, birthing them in to slavery, not caring about other peoples freedoms. Well you're all wrong, just because I'm a Demon Princess doesn't mean I don't have a heart, just because I serve Hell it doesn't mean I don't want whats best for everyone, but heres the trick, not everyone can get what they want, it's all part of the ineffable plan thingie. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer unless the poor decide to do something about, or the rich fail, there is only so much freedom to go around, now what, now i have to play favorites or just throw it out randomly like money from a float, where is the jutsice in that? And I love my daughters, every last one of them, even the Grey ones, even the deluded ones that went bright (running love sick after Laurence though is enough to make me sick!). Besides all this my geasing is only common sense, without these geasa they'll just run amok, which is good for freedom in general, bad for Hell and for me, not even I want to be on Asmodeus's bad side, he's turned out to be a hard Prince to geas! So you see what you see as manipulative, I see as necessary cunning, what you see as slavery, I see as protection, what you see as not caring, is just my inability to voice my feelings..sob, sob, sob... (Oh geeze now look what you've done to her you made her cry, here have a tissue...) Simon, who should stop getting invlolved in the affairs of Superiors ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:25:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Gastonguay Subject: IN> First Game I seem to be having a problem that I havn't been able to answer for a couple of months now. I love reading all the IN books and like the storys I have read and thought up myself... but I still have yet to actually play, or even GM, the game. The gamers in my area are, to say the least, gamers, not role-players. The whole group sees the game as a bunch of numbers on a sheet and a pile of dice. Here's an example of some of my gaming sessions: One character was given a wife in The Call of Cthulhu, the typical game session was going on and then the monster took chase: Player: I'm going to run(the most common three letter word in CoC GM: Your wife refuses to move, she just blatently stares as the beast comes upon her. Player: I'm running. GM: What about your wife? You've been married for 15 years! Player: Who cares? She's an idiot and deserves to die anyway, she's just been causing trouble the whole adventure. Screw her. Shortly after this seen, I went home one hope and one adventure less. Because of this I am reluctant to start an IN campaign because I don't feel that this game is for such number crunchers as they are. Does anyone out there have an adventure that may make them want to role-play, or should I just give it up? (So far I had one player make a character, and he made a Shedite of Malaphas, and souped him up so that he starts fights with a glance, but no backround) Thanx in advance. Deacon, Elohim of Yves under the role of Adam, student writer. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:30:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> The Cake of Evil - ---Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > Anders Sandberg is always good for inspiring and bizarre stuff. Check > out "The Cake of Evil" at: > > http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/Mage/cake > > -- > Neel Krishnaswami > neelk@alum.mit.edu > > Yummy! May I have seconds? :) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:17:01 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Auditions- the list! At 01:05 PM 22/05/98 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > >---"David.Evans" wrote: >> >> Graveyard Greg sic scribit: >> > >> > Hey SImon, send us the entire list so far...I got in nomine players >> > who want to read the list! :) >> > >> > >To which David.Evans forcefully replied: >> NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! >> >> I will repeat:- NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! >> >> There, I think that's put my own personal opinion across. :-) For >the >> hard of thinking, that is to say that IMHO, the DEmon Prince >Auditions >> thread is a complete tidalwave of niosy, wasteful hyper-fluffy >> excremental bandwidth. If lots of people *really* want to see it, >> compile the lot and put it up on a Web Page for all to see. I >personally >> don't want to have a 400-dd line email clogging up my server and >annoying >> my web admins. There endeth the lesson. >> >> >> Be seeing you... >> >> David. >> > >Heh. I don't think Simon (or whoever is responsible for this >auditioning) would be so cruel as to send the entire list on the >listserv...He hopefully will send it to me privately. Right, Simon? >C'mon--back me up here! > >Didn't mean to worry ya, David! > >Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > >uh what did you mean exactly, what i was going to send was just who I'd picked, nothing less, nothing more, anything wrong with that, if you want anything more however that could become difficult! Simon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:52:45 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> When to Summon, When They Appear On Fri, 22 May 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > For angels of David, it's not technically dissonant to abandon a friend > > in a fight (it's no ranged attacks and don't hit first, IIRC), but would > > likely be a betrayal of everything he believes in and everything David > > stands for to abandon a friend to a Demon Prince. It's very often not > > even in their imagination of the possible to do something like that -- > > the thought of abandoning a friend for mere personal survival simply > > won't occur to them. > > *shrugs* He should also understand that it will do absolutely no good what > so ever to try to fight a DP. It's like trying to stop a tank from running > over your friends by standing in front of it. It might not matter, though. A common theme among warriors is that you do not abandon your own. Desperate last stands against overwhelming odds, all to protect a friend happen. Whether or not it is *possible* to hinder a Demon Prince in any way, some angels will not back down. Servitors of David wouldn't as long as there is an ally left behind. Servitors of Michael wouldn't unless specifically ordered to by someone with a higher rank. Cherubim would feel (at best) uneasy about leaving their friends and allies. Malakim would rather jump the DP, distract him so the others can escape, and arrive next to their Hearts. It's a matter of honor. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 10:45:37 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> When to Summon, When They Appear On Fri, 22 May 1998 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > > > On Fri, 22 May 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > > For angels of David, it's not technically dissonant to abandon a friend > > > in a fight (it's no ranged attacks and don't hit first, IIRC), but would > > > likely be a betrayal of everything he believes in and everything David > > > stands for to abandon a friend to a Demon Prince. It's very often not > > > even in their imagination of the possible to do something like that -- > > > the thought of abandoning a friend for mere personal survival simply > > > won't occur to them. > > > > *shrugs* He should also understand that it will do absolutely no good what > > so ever to try to fight a DP. It's like trying to stop a tank from running > > over your friends by standing in front of it. > > It might not matter, though. A common theme among warriors is that you do > not abandon your own. Desperate last stands against overwhelming odds, > all to protect a friend happen. Whether or not it is *possible* to hinder > a Demon Prince in any way, some angels will not back down. Servitors of > David wouldn't as long as there is an ally left behind. Servitors of > Michael wouldn't unless specifically ordered to by someone with a higher > rank. Cherubim would feel (at best) uneasy about leaving their friends > and allies. Malakim would rather jump the DP, distract him so the others > can escape, and arrive next to their Hearts. > > It's a matter of honor. Trying to distract the DP to let your friends escape would be quite legitimate, I think. But everyone making an all-out attack on it to try to do some damage would just be stupid, IMO. Personally, I think all servants of Michael should have a standing permission to be allowed to avoid fighting DP:s. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! "Jag har känsla för feeling" - Dom Dummaste ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:11:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Summoning Superiors This whole discussion is kinda silly. Look at it this way: If you summon Baal, and he squiks a whole bunch of angels for you before leaving, regardless of what reprimand he gives you, then Baal's practically saying to ALL his servitors, "Just invoke me when you're in trouble!" Suddenly, he's answering hundreds of invocations per day, and has no time to plan the strategy of The War. Obviously, he can't let this happen. So what does he do? Simple. If summoned for anything less than a CATASTROPHIC EMERGENCY, he just punishes his servitors and leaves. That'll teach them to waste his time. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:29:20 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions MarkDEddy wrote: > Vapula: John Lithgow or "Q" from the Bond films (IIRC, it's always been the > same actor) 16 of 19 Bond films and I forget his name right now. He would be nearly perfect, especially if you picture him when he was younger. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:32:04 -0400 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> A Cartesian rewrite of the attribute system In this post, I play fast and loose with two of the greatest philosophers in the Western canon. You have been warned. :) (It's all still tentative at this point, and I would appreciate comments.) - -*-*-*- The attribute system in In Nomine looks like it was inspired by Augustine's _Summa Theologica_ (spelling?), in that it makes a Greek distinction between intelligence and reason, rather than following the more familiar Cartesian pattern. St. Augustine distinguished between intelligence and reason. Ignoring all the subtleties, intellect was the spiritual ability to directly apprehend the truth, and reason was the ability to deduce effect from causes. This is more than simply perception in the everday sense; the truth carries an explicitly moral weight that it makes it evident what the right course of action *is*. It's pretty easy to see how plausible this notion must have seemed to Christian thinkers who became familiar with Greek philosophy. Angels, both fallen and unfallen, were beings of pure spirit who directly perceived the truth rather than laboriously constructing logical arguments. In IN attributes, "reason" would correspond to the Intelligence attribute, and "intellect" would correspond with Perception. Now, notice that it is Perception rather than Intelligence that is governed by Celestial Forces, and the Augustinean influence becomes immediately apparent. Immediately, we notice that most angelic resonances are based off of Perception, which fits the Augustinean idea very well. Demons are celestial spirits that have given up their pure ability to see truth in favor of imposing their own false systems on the universe. Kyrios and Lilim don't fit precisely, but that's because I didn't design the system. :) This has some interesting implications, like the fact that characters with 0 Ethereal Forces are not mindless husks -- they retain their natural ability to directly intuit the universe and its inhabitants. A demon with 0 Intelligence simply knows the truth and has a drive to blot it out, and an angel with a 0 Intelligence would know the truth and instinctively seeks to preserve it -- but both would be capable of taking coordinated and long-term action without planning and remembering in the way humans do. It could make an interesting roleplaying challenge to portray such a character, but Greek Platonism is unfortunately just not a standard widget in the modern cultural toolbox. Nowadays, the default conception of soul and self owes a lot to Rene Descartes, who argued that the Biblical claim about man being created in God's image referred to the human capacity for reason. A crude way of explaining this idea is that the the soul is basically the little guy sitting in your head and driving your body around. I think the two ideas may have some different implications about the nature of resurrection and memories and stuff like that, but that's way beyond anything I know. Now that I've gone on and on, I must admit that the actual changes to the game mechanics should be fairly small. Basically, all we need to do is to swap Intelligence and Perception; the attribute/Force scheme would look like this: Corporeal Forces: Strength and Agility (unchanged) Ethereal Forces: Perception and Precision Celestial Forces: Intelligence and Will Roughly, a being's corporeal Forces represent its physical existence, its Celestial Forces represent its essential self, and the Ethereal Forces are the interface between spirit and matter. The following rules would change: o Mind hits would become Precision times Ethereal Forces. o Angelic resonances would be based on Intelligence rather than Perception, representing their greater-than-human ability to comprehend God's will manifest in Creation. o Disturbance detection remains Perception-based, since it is all about detecting changes that are happening as a result of spiritual action on matter, and that's logically an Ethereal task. It also gives an explanation of why even demons, who are cut off from the true Symphony, can detect disturbances. Even though they deliberately reject God, they retain their native understanding of Him -- no one denies that Satan is a better theologian than any human who ever lived -- and can deduce celestial actions from their subtle effects on the world. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:42:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Ovine Youth Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions On Thu, 21 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:24 PM +0900 5/20/98, Simon Hailes wrote: > > >Now what does that leave me with, oh yeah,Lilith, Saminga, Valefor and > >Vapula (I decided to get this all finished in one go). > > Lilith. Um. Whatshername, who does Captain Janeway on Star Trek: Veeger. My girlfriend, the ex-Voyager fan (and Gargoyle fan, I guess :), says that whatshername is Kate Mulgrew. When I told her what's going on here, she suggested Drew Barrymore. (???) - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:51:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: IN> First Game On Fri, 22 May 1998, Adam Gastonguay wrote: > The gamers in my area are, to > say the least, gamers, not role-players. The whole group sees the > game as a bunch of numbers on a sheet and a pile of dice. Just out of curiosity, what's your area? 8< snippage of an amusing example of play >8 > Does > anyone out there have an adventure that may make them want to > role-play, or should I just give it up? Well, I'd heartily encourage you not to give it up. If you have the time, and if you're that interested in running or playing, there's always the geographics-transcending option of PBeM or some other online version of gaming. But if you really want to slug it out with the players you mentioned, there may not be any other choice than just toughing it out and getting them to really role-play. If they are more interested in the minmaxing aspects of gaming, then your style may just not be for them (which is fine) and you can try finding some others. Just my two cents, - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 16:29:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> First Game On Fri, 22 May 1998, Adam Gastonguay wrote: > I seem to be having a problem that I havn't been able to answer for a > couple of months now. I love reading all the IN books and like the > storys I have read and thought up myself... but I still have yet to > actually play, or even GM, the game. The gamers in my area are, to > say the least, gamers, not role-players. The whole group sees the > game as a bunch of numbers on a sheet and a pile of dice. Here's an > example of some of my gaming sessions: > Shortly after this seen, I went home one hope and one adventure less. > Because of this I am reluctant to start an IN campaign because I don't > feel that this game is for such number crunchers as they are. Does > anyone out there have an adventure that may make them want to > role-play, or should I just give it up? Find. A. New. Group. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 14:12:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN>Demon Prince Auditions - ---Ovine Youth wrote: > > On Thu, 21 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > At 10:24 PM +0900 5/20/98, Simon Hailes wrote: > > > > >Now what does that leave me with, oh yeah,Lilith, Saminga, Valefor and > > >Vapula (I decided to get this all finished in one go). > > > > Lilith. Um. Whatshername, who does Captain Janeway on Star Trek: Veeger. > > My girlfriend, the ex-Voyager fan (and Gargoyle fan, I guess :), says > that whatshername is Kate Mulgrew. > > When I told her what's going on here, she suggested Drew Barrymore. (???) I can see that, but I still say Selma Hayek Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #794 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.