From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 3 18:28:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19791 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:28:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA10984 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:28:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:28:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199806032328.SAA10984@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #806 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 806 In this digest: Re: IN> Attunment incompatibility? (Manaxiel) Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Placing credit IN> supporting cast Re: IN> Role Levels Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions Re: IN> supporting cast Re: IN> supporting cast Re: IN> supporting cast Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> The Death of Michael Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> supporting cast Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Choirness question IN> Re: IN- Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> supporting cast Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions IN> Christopher, Zadkiel, Others (was Bright Lilim character creation) IN> Dream Cats ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:37:28 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Attunment incompatibility? (Manaxiel) On Tue, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:45:49PM -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Manaxiel is a Malakite of Lightning. Therefore, he can have > the Malakite of Creation attunement (maybe; there may still be a bit > of fuzziness about whether this is allowed), but unless he's a > Servitor of Creation, cannot have other-Choir attunements. > I believe the Seraph of Creation attunement is actually specifically resonance based, so as a Malakite he couldn't have it anyway. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:44:44 EDT From: Barelocks@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Actually the IPG states that Laurance would like all the bright Lilim as his servitors. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:03:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP > Actually the IPG states that Laurance would like all the bright Lilim as his > servitors. > Let him, I say! Lilim have this THING built into the fiber of their natures which make them follow around Malakim carrying little drool buckets. The only thing that gets rid of an infatuated Lilim is to kill her off - where she'll just eventually come back to drool some more. God help the Malakite who has a Geas on him held by a Lilim with Affinity. When they go Bright, on that very rare occasion, Malakim can no longer just stick 'em with a sword and have them go away. Now they have to deal with Not Going Away, Ever. I think that putting Laurence in a group of Bright Lilim who want to talk about nothing but about his rear would serve as a good object lesson. :P - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 13:09:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Bright Lilim as Heaven's groupies? Maybe the Moslem concept of houris is based on these. I mean, if there aren't enough Malakim to go around, then maybe some of them will settle for militant martyr Moslems. Militant martyrdom is fairly close in character to Malakim nature, after all. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:03:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP At 12:44 PM -0400 6/3/98, Barelocks@aol.com wrote: >Actually the IPG states that Laurance would like all the bright Lilim as his >servitors. And that he doesn't get them, much as he'd like to. (Or much as he thinks he'd like to. Brights just see those Big Black Wings and their brains sometimes shut down....) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 14:20 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions > There are >several pure King Arthur sites out on the Web with tons of information - >run down on time periods, legends, reading lists, etc. Though not IN, there's GURPS Camelot, which covers the historical Arthur, as well as the "classical" and Hollywood versions. It was heavily researched, and contains a lot of good stuff. It may prove useful as source material, and it shouldn't be *too* hard to convert character stats, if it comes to that. Unfortunately, it's out of print, so you'd have to check with one of the used game dealers to see if they have a copy. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 14:30 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP > do >players who have generated Lilim in the past detailed whom their Lilim >owes what, what was done for her, and how long ago? That would be nice, but I wouldn't require it, as GM. (Or probably do it as a player....) The easy out is for all starting Lilim Geases to be to Lilith, for their creation and/or other goodies. (It's probably easier to get Mother to give you things for future favors than a Prince - -- but you can't buy attunements that way.) > i haven't read >everything yet, but is there a trait within to the effect of "eidetic >memory," or do Celestials have that as a perk of their nature? It's a choir attunement for Seraphim of Lightning, so I'd say no. I do expect their memories to be better than human, though -- at least if the character has 3+ Ethereal Forces. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 13:38:49 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Just to complicate matters, here's an idea for generating > a Bright Lilim: > > Lilith makes occasional deals with Archangels, right? Suppose > an Archangel asked for a Lilim. [snip] > One of the more flexible AAs, of course. > Novalis comes to mind, or Eli (of course), but Christopher, Janus, > Blandine, or even Marc, are possibilities. Even Jean might, or > Zadkiel. David? Michael? Uh... I do agree with Earl that the Malak AAs would find such deals so ... disagreeable, that they would not make them, though they might make use of Lilim that others launder and sanitize for them [emphasis on _might_], though even these are rarities, even where Bright Lilim are concerned. However,I am going to have to disagree on one point: I think Michael would be one of the _most_ likely employers of made-to-order Lilim. After all, the main book portrays him as the fighter who will do _anything_ [well, nearly anything] to win. He is the dishonorable, grizzled-sergeant, dirtyfighting [but winning], Warrior Archangel. The bootcamp for his Servitors is NOT for the squeamish or faint of heart. Backstabbing? No problem. Throw dirt in their eyes? Any day. Bust them in what passes among Celestials for balls? Sure. Make a deal with Lilith for Servitor Lilim? Just let him get you your payment. Whatever it takes for Heaven to win, Michael is willing to do; he has already resigned as Commander of the Armies of Heaven. One presumes he is willing to be Force-stripped into annihilation, if that is what is required to assure Heaven's final victory. So making a deal with Lilith won't even make him think about blinking. After all, if she gets to be more of a problem than her Daughters are worth, he will just take her out, once and for all. Knowing that Michael wouldn't even begin to break a sweat in doing so is probably what keeps Lilith from becoming importuntate and demanding and a real nuisance -- she may relish the power she gets from these deals, but she is careful that her demands don't make her a liability that needs "fixing". Of course, this is just IMHO, YMMV. tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 15:02 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Placing credit [Drake:] >Well with the Word Force its self, back in feburary 22, in the In-Nomine >Digest #638, I initially came up with the idea about trying to represent >a Superior's Word in their stats, but I had it as simply translating >over into things like Attunements and such.. Then on Feb 25, in the >In-Nomine Digest #645, Walter Milliken touched on that a lot of a >Superior's Forces are tied up in their Word and that there should be >some other mechanics to describe about how a Superior's Word would >interact and relate to various things. Actually, I think Elizabeth and I had been discussing the concept of Word Forces rather a bit farther back than that, in conjuction with canon discussions on Word-bound and Superiors. None of that was on the list, of course. Your original post prompted me to write up some of that thinking here, as being relevant to what you were trying to do. A case of convergent evolution, I suspect.... At that time, I was thinking about them specifically in the context of Word-bound, not particularly much for Superiors -- I was worrying about the "evolving PC problem". BTW, Word Forces may appear in canon -- I'm doing some stuff on Tethers where they help solve some problems in explaining how Seneschals and Tethers work. I don't know if the idea will pass the Seraphim Council, though.... The main problem is that adding them now will require errata'ing all the prior published Word-bound characters. If this goes through, Superiors will probably have *lots* of Word Forces (probably a low of about 20 up to maybe 100-200 for the most powerful Superiors) -- the current (early) draft requires every Tether have at least one Force invested in it by the Superior who owns it. And it looks like typical Superiors will have *lots* of Tethers. As I noted, this may change when other people review it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:07:46 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: IN> supporting cast Can someone who is turned into a mummy/vampire ever be put back to normal? (presuming they want to be that is...) I know it's possible to turn an unwilling person into a vampire (liber reliquarium had that coffin of undeath thingie that could do it...) so how would the angles react to one of thier servants getting vamped against thier will? Could one of the undead work for the good guys? Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 15:07 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Role Levels >Someone on the list once suggested that there are minor spirits >used for this purpose -- who live out the life of that person until it >is time for a powerful angel or demon to take over the Role. (Maybe >Walter?) Elizabeth, probably, though we often post ideas generated by each other, so sometimes it's hard to tell.... >I believe that in canon, it's possible to implant a celestial in a >fetal vessel, making even an adoption unneccessary, but I am somewhat >ambivalent about that idea -- it's a little too close to virgin birth. >(Thus it would have implications about celestial beliefs about >Christianity that seem like more work than I want to deal with.) I don't see why it couldn't be done, though it might not be commonly done, for much the reason why you might prefer avoiding it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:10:30 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP >Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> >> Just to complicate matters, here's an idea for generating >> a Bright Lilim: >> >> Lilith makes occasional deals with Archangels, right? Suppose >> an Archangel asked for a Lilim. > >[snip] > >> One of the more flexible AAs, of course. >> Novalis comes to mind, or Eli (of course), but Christopher, Janus, >> Blandine, or even Marc, are possibilities. Even Jean might, or >> Zadkiel. David? Michael? Uh... >However,I am going to have to disagree on one point: I think Michael >would be one of the _most_ likely employers of made-to-order Lilim. >After all, the main book portrays him as the fighter who will do >_anything_ [well, nearly anything] to win. Make a deal with Lilith >for Servitor Lilim? Just let him get you your payment. Whatever it takes >for Heaven to win, Michael is willing to do... MICHAEL: Oh... I want to sing and dance, I want to sing and dance I want to be a pirate in the Pirates of Penzance Wear me silver-buckle slippers and me tight shiny pants I want to sing and dance!! LILITH: That should do it. I'll send a Daughter to you for Attunement by the end of the week. MICHAEL: That was incredibly demeaning... but cheaper than I expected... LILITH: Well, let's just say that Kobal, Valefor, Haagenti and Nybbas -all- owe me one now... now if you'll excuse me, I have to talk business with that handsome young Malakite and his Sword... MICHAEL: ......... - ---Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:02:42 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP At 13:38 03/06/98 -0500, you wrote: >Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> >> Just to complicate matters, here's an idea for generating >> a Bright Lilim: >> >> Lilith makes occasional deals with Archangels, right? Suppose >> an Archangel asked for a Lilim. > > >However,I am going to have to disagree on one point: I think Michael >would be one of the _most_ likely employers of made-to-order Lilim. IMO even if she wanted to, Lilith can't do made-to-order lilim for archangels. She is a demon. She can't make bright daughters any more than any of the demon princes can make angels. I guess maybe if she could get forces from the AAs she could make a free that might tend to go bright, but what archangel would actually donate its forces into creating a -demon- which is going to be born in the pit and may never escape, especially if the Game have anything to do with it. If they want to recruit lilim its probably more sensible to keep a look out for renegades and send angels out to convert them. ie. If any of them are going to go bright, they have to do it the hard way. They don't get created that way -- that's my reading. jo ps. Re: Arthurian. We reckon echoes of the historical Arthur might have been around in about.. oooh.. 725AD? (Whosoever pulleth forth this sword from this stone shall be the newest archangel in heaven...) "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:29:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP *snicker* Very good. I waffled on Michael, not because I thought he was too starchy to make a deal with Lilith, but because I was picturing the factory-set Bright as on *probably* going to wind up working for the Archangel who pays the geas, and I wasn't sure Michael would like the uncertainly. Also, the AA has to sort of "woo" the Bright, at least a little, and I wasn't sure Michael's style would have much appeal for a Lilim. Of course, if you consider that Michael is about as much like a Malakite as a Seraph can get... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:31:31 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions Matthias Müller wrote: > Some other questions: the player of the Shedite of Death took the Song of > Possession, would it be fair to allow him taking over dead animals as well > ? Nope. I would say not. The song only allows the possession of living things and the attunement inproves only their resonance. Sorry Mr. Shedite. Like you aren't frightening enough already. > Said Shedite wants to buy a sabre as an artifact and would like it to be > summonable; what would the appropriate cost be ? Hmm. Probably give the artifact the Concealed Weapon advantage (p.55 Liber Reliquarum) and say it is concealed within the Shedite's celestial form (kind of like Laurence's Scabbard attunement). If you don't have LR quick synopsis of what the Concealed Weapon advantage does: +5 point cost, one essence "hides" the weapon which can be drawn out for no cost, celestials can detect the artifact on a perception roll with a 6 check digit. There is a summonable advantage as well in LR but it is intended for vehicles and other big stuff (definitely not for weapons), and causes disturbance in the symphony when you use it. > Finally, as the demons have never been on Earth before, they'll need a > guide > to manifest for the first time. But how did the first Celestials visit > Earth ? > Were they all led by God and his/her/its Archangels ? My understanding is that demons/angels can automatically come to Earth if they wish, the problem is getting a vessel which only a superior can give them. Sure they can come to Earth any time they want but they cause disturbance (celestial form on Earth) and they can't interact with much of anything. No fun. So they petition their boss for a vessel and suddenly they can go play with all the big boys and girls. As for the first celestials coming down to Earth, I think that there is some stuff on that in the Angelic Players Guide. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 15:30 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> supporting cast >Can someone who is turned into a mummy/vampire ever be put back to normal? Probably not short of an Intervention. Saminga might have a clue how to do it, but he'd have *no* interest in doing so.... It *might* be possible to rescue the soul from dissolution at corporeal death, though. That would take a Superior to do, in my campaign. >I know it's possible to turn an unwilling person into a vampire (liber >reliquarium had that coffin of undeath thingie that could do it...) so how >would the angles react to one of thier servants getting vamped against >thier will? "Not very well" would be an understatement, for most of the angel characters I'm familiar with.... > Could one of the undead work for the good guys? There's no canon reason why they couldn't -- they still have free will, but it would be a major turnabout in the character, since normally only the most nasty humans are offered the chance for "eternal life". The most probable way for this to happen is via the coffin relic being fed a Soldier of God or the like. But it's possible that a normal undead might suffer a change of heart at some point, just like demons sometimes redeem. I would expect that a "good" undead would suffer much the same sort of problem that a "good" demon does -- attention from the Game. In addition, Saminga probably won't be happy, and would likely send Servitors after the defector. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:54:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> supporting cast > Can someone who is turned into a mummy/vampire ever be put back to normal? > (presuming they want to be that is...) No. And it's just that simple. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:59:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> supporting cast If someone forcibly vamped a Soldier of God, or even just an angel's servitor, I'd think this would peeve Heaven sufficiently that some Superior or other would be willing to take action when the unwilling undead reaches corporeal death. A reasonably appropriate result might be "translation" -- bodily assumption into Heaven. And then? What are the mechanics for Saints and Boddhisatvas? Do either of them have celestial-style vessels? Would that be a reasonably smooth transition for a good undead? I don't know enough about them, especially boddhisatvas. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Just to complicate matters, here's an idea for generating > a Bright Lilim: for the record, i don't think you complicated things, though you certainly injected some brilliance. *thank-you,* sir! =) > Lilith makes occasional deals with Archangels, right? Suppose been known to, yeppers.... > an Archangel asked for a Lilim. Lilith probably would not > "give" the new-minted Lilim to the Archangel, since that would > go against her Word, but she might create the Lilim and leave it, > technically free, in the Archangel's "custody," letting the > Archangel accept the geas-payment for the Bright's creation. i like it. i REALLY like it! it reminds me of the section in the APG on Angelic Reproduction, especially the few lines pertaining to environment shaping the angelic child's choice of race--angelic or demonic, depending on with whom s/he consorts. question: the angels created with the Song of (dang, i'm blanking here--the one the Grigori didn't even need) aren't Fallen because they haven't chosen yet, but i got the impression Lilth, being a Demon Princess, created only demons. say, maybe you are complicating things . > The Bright would thus have no geases on her, and would start > life hanging around this Archangel and its servitors -- not > in service to it (at first), but in an environment where that's she'd also be under heavy scrutiny by the Celestial Inquisition, too, and i have to disagree with your last point: i think Laurence would love to do something like this, though the method you propose certainly goes against how he operates.... > the norm. Very natural that she should then sign on with the > said Archangel. One of the more flexible AAs, of course. > Novalis comes to mind, or Eli (of course), but Christopher, Janus, as far as AA's that i'm favoring so far for the character, Eli, Gabriel, Michael and Yves are the top contenders. who *are* Christopher and Zadkiel, though? i've seen mention of Christopher in the APG, and i'm still looking for a more detailed write-up on him. > Blandine, or even Marc, are possibilities. Even Jean might, or > Zadkiel. David? Michael? Uh... Dominic or Laurence, no. considering that it's implied Marc and Lilith get on much better than their respective sides prefer, i could see this happening plausibly. Dominic would no doubt want another trial held unless this was done *very* quietly, therefore.... ;) thanks again for your ideas, Earl. =) -=|horsefly|=- "All I am after is a just life, at the end of which I can laugh as I die." --ARCADIA OF MY YOUTH, end credits lyrics ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:07:39 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> The Death of Michael On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Thomas Davidson wrote: > Graveyard Greg wrote: > > Oh, and by the way, Gabriel is completely bonkers and wants to start > > the War, Thor is back, and Baal is PISSED! > I'm curious... why is Baal pissed? His mortal enemy is dead... I > would think that Baal would be elated. [heavy snippage before and after this section] just a guess, but maybe Baal wasn't the one to kill Michael? -=|horsefly|=- "Damn it, Senator! You promised me these men would be decently treated." "The were decently treated: they were decently fed... and then they were decently shot." --Fletcher and the Senator, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:10:01 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: [snip] > I think that putting Laurence in a group of Bright Lilim who want to talk > about nothing but about his rear would serve as a good object lesson. :P LOL and his wings! never forget those beautiful, shiny black wings! they're so pretty...! ;) -=|horsefly|=- "Okay, that's it. Screw you guys--I'm goin' home! Talking poo is where I draw the line." --Cartman, SOUTH PARK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:02:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP I don't know that "Lilith creates only demons" is a big barrier here, since a Bright is still a Lilim. That is, there doesn't seem to be a change of nature on the same scale as that between seraph and balseraph. You can't look at the celestial form and see which side they're on. Actually, now that I think of it, Marc might have a very hard time dealing with Lilith. They're both deal-makers, but on the opposite sides. I'd expect Marc has to deal with Lilith through gritted teeth. Of course, he might still do it. Zadkiel is Archangel of Protection. Christopher is Archangel of Children. They were both documented in later IN books. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:11:32 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> supporting cast Earl Wajenberg wrote: > If someone forcibly vamped a Soldier of God, or even just an > angel's servitor, I'd think this would peeve Heaven sufficiently > that some Superior or other would be willing to take action > when the unwilling undead reaches corporeal death. > > A reasonably appropriate result might be "translation" -- bodily > assumption into Heaven. And then? What are the mechanics for > Saints and Boddhisatvas? Do either of them have celestial-style > vessels? Would that be a reasonably smooth transition for a > good undead? I don't know enough about them, especially > boddhisatvas. One little problem with all of this... When an undead dies he/she is dead for good. No soul going on to its eternal reward/punishment, nothing. The Undead's celestial forces are bound up into the corporeal there is no soul to be loosed and thus no soul to save. Once you buy a prize it is yours to keep. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:37:32 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I don't know that "Lilith creates only demons" is a big barrier > here, since a Bright is still a Lilim. That is, there doesn't > seem to be a change of nature on the same scale as that between > seraph and balseraph. You can't look at the celestial form and > see which side they're on. i have to disagree: the Lilim doesn't shift to a new choir, but her nature is still to make deals, though she's more apt to give generously without a thought to her own profits, and physically, she loses her horns and green tinge as well as gaining wings. noticeable differences, one imagines. > Actually, now that I think of it, Marc might have a very hard > time dealing with Lilith. They're both deal-makers, but on > the opposite sides. I'd expect Marc has to deal with Lilith > through gritted teeth. Of course, he might still do it. you are probably working from a more complete outlook of what has been documented. i just remember the line in the IPG History where it says that Lilith and Marc work together more often than they oppose one another (paraphrased). > Zadkiel is Archangel of Protection. Christopher is Archangel of > Children. They were both documented in later IN books. thanks, but i'm still a at loss: why would either of these AA's deal with Lilith, and in which books can i find both of them? -=|horsefly|=- (.sigless 'cuz i feel like it at the moment) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:35:13 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question At 1:39 PM -0700 6/1/98, Alloni Kramer wrote: >Okay, so the consensus seems to be that the whole thing is relatively open >and aboveboard, useable in the same points in conversation where you would >place "doctor" or "programmer" or "bread mold". Next question: How well >known are the Choir/Superior attunements? If someone meets an Ofanite of >Fire, does the little box which says "Immune to fire, heat, and radiation" >immediately light up in their head? How about the other attunements? If >you meet a servitor of Marc, would you know enough to ask them if they can >write binding contracts? It's all a matter of what you want to do with your campaign. In my own campaign, the rule of thumb is that all powers are known. If a player wants to know what sorts of joke balseraphim of dark humor specialize in, he can just look it up -- there's no reason his PC won't know, unless the player has specifically defined his character as ignorant. Within the game world, angels and demons are at the top of the power curve, and it doesn't make sense for beings that powerful and knowledgeable to be ignorant about the basic capabilities of their allies and enemies. Metagame, I want to encourage players to try to plan and outthink their opponents; it helps if they have a firm base of knowledge to plan from. Also, demanding that they forget everything they picked up while trying to decide what kind of PC to play is just an aggravation I don't feel like inflicting. But if you want to run a game where everything is murky and mysterious, and nothing is as it seems, then you are likely better off doing something like Archangel Beth suggested. (Unless, of course, you want the players to get a "how did he do THAT?" shock.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:35:48 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Bright Lilim character creation--HELP It was the Song of Fruition. Don't sweat it. >From: -=|horsefly|=- > i like it. i REALLY like it! it reminds me of the section in the >APG on Angelic Reproduction, especially the few lines pertaining to >environment shaping the angelic child's choice of race--angelic or >demonic, depending on with whom s/he consorts. question: the angels >created with the Song of (dang, i'm blanking here--the one the Grigori >didn't even need) aren't Fallen because they haven't chosen yet, but i got >the impression Lilth, being a Demon Princess, created only demons. say, >maybe you are complicating things . Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:50:36 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I don't know that "Lilith creates only demons" is a big barrier > here, since a Bright is still a Lilim. That is, there doesn't > seem to be a change of nature on the same scale as that between > seraph and balseraph. You can't look at the celestial form and > see which side they're on. Actually you can tell what side a Lilim is on by looking at their celestial form. Read the IPG part about brights... p.118 IPG, "A redeemed Daughter no longer looks like a green, wingless Impudite. Instead, she gains a soft aura of color... and a pair of translucent wings, shimmiering extensions of her aura. The horns and green coloration are gone." Regardless of that we are in agreemet that the difference between a dark and bright Lilim is way more subtle than that between a Seraph and a Balseraph. Its kind of like the difference between a handgun used to defend life and one used to take it. Subtle, but definitely there. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 17:53 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP [stuff on angelic reproduction cut] > but i got >the impression Lilth, being a Demon Princess, created only demons. say, >maybe you are complicating things . To complicate things even more, Lilith *herself* is not a demon -- she's some weird form of human. And it's not clear she can create "regular" demons; so far, all she's known for in canon is creating Lilim. Which leaves open the question of whether Lilim are *truly* demons in the standard sense. And Lilim are rather more like humans in some ways; unlike normal angels and demons, they don't change much when they change sides -- the change is mostly cosmetic and attitudinal. That said, in our game, Lilith *cannot* create a Bright directly -- she must contribute at least one of her own Forces, which is sufficiently "warped" (read "demonic") that the resulting creation is significantly influenced by that. I.e., they start as the demonic form. - --- We have an "unofficial" soap opera going on with various Superiors in our campaign background, more or less. Among other things, Lilith *has* created a few Lilim based on Forces contributed by specific Archangels. These Lilim were created in Heaven (she was shielded by the cooperating Archangels) and were close to angelic in nature. The AAs involved *did* have to perform a redemption on them, but little adjustment was necessary. Thus, these "Heavenborn" Lilim were nominally demonic in form, but essentially angelic in outlook. We also assume a considerable "mimetic inheritance" from the contributors of Forces; in the Heavenborn, this manifests as the the Lilim being psychologically similar to their other parent's nature: Jean's is studious and analytical, while Laurence's (*long* story!) is hardly distinguishable from a Malakite in action. But all of them also have the standard Lilim nature -- they're gregarious and fun-loving. Which makes for some interesting behaviors.... I should add that none of these are even NPCs yet in our campaign, and most of this happens rather far in the future of our current games. So it's "non-canon" in our game universe. But I'm using the data from this to flesh out my understanding of various Superiors, including Lilith. (Besides, it's fun roleplaying Superiors some of the time....) >> One of the more flexible AAs, of course. >> Novalis comes to mind, or Eli (of course), but Christopher, Janus, > as far as AA's that i'm favoring so far for the character, Eli, >Gabriel, Michael and Yves are the top contenders. Possibly Jean -- I believe canon is that he and Lilith get along; he's probably trying to get her to switch sides. > who *are* Christopher >and Zadkiel, though? i've seen mention of Christopher in the APG, and i'm >still looking for a more detailed write-up on him. Christopher is AA of Children, and is detailed in Night Music. Zadkiel is AA of Protection, and is detailed in Heaven & Hell. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 17:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP >I don't know that "Lilith creates only demons" is a big barrier >here, since a Bright is still a Lilim. That is, there doesn't >seem to be a change of nature on the same scale as that between >seraph and balseraph. You can't look at the celestial form and >see which side they're on. Actually, you can -- Brights don't have the green coloration or the horns, and develop a visible aura and wings. But it's mostly minor cosmetics. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 18:01 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> supporting cast [Earl, on "good" undead:] >A reasonably appropriate result might be "translation" -- bodily >assumption into Heaven. And then? What are the mechanics for >Saints and Boddhisatvas? Do either of them have celestial-style >vessels? They're more or less the same thing, I think. Or rather, Saints are what you call the ones who are given vessels to return to the corporeal. And yes, these are celestial-style vessels. (The appropriate canon is in Night Music.) > Would that be a reasonably smooth transition for a >good undead? Yes, if there's an Archangel around when they die corporeally (or who kills them corporeally at a request for "redemption"). I would allow this in my game, but it would take significant work to set up. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:40:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions Something else you may want to look at is GURPS Camalot.. It does a decent job of representing all three options for Arthur and company. (Mythic, Historic, and cynamatic) Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:45:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > Though not IN, there's GURPS Camelot, which covers the historical > Arthur, as well as the "classical" and Hollywood versions. It was > heavily researched, and contains a lot of good stuff. It may prove > useful as source material, and it shouldn't be *too* hard to convert > character stats, if it comes to that. Unfortunately, it's out of print, > so you'd have to check with one of the used game dealers to see if they > have a copy. Know of a shop that still has 3 new coppies, if anyone is interested contact me, and I will see what I can do. Shadowcat P.S. send it as private e-mail, no use mucking up the list. All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:27:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Christopher, Zadkiel, Others (was Bright Lilim character creation) At 2:03 PM -0700 6/3/98, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > who *are* Christopher >and Zadkiel, though? i've seen mention of Christopher in the APG, and i'm >still looking for a more detailed write-up on him. Christopher, Cherub AA of Children, is in Night Music. He is a minor Superior. Fleurity, Habbalite DP of Drugs, is also there. Also minor. Zadkiel, Cherub AA of Protection, is in Heaven & Hell. She is minor. Mammon, Balseraph DP of Greed, is in Heaven & Hell. Minor, interestingly. Magog, Shedite DP of Cruelty, will be in... Final Trumpet. Khalid, Elohite AA of Faith, will be in FT. Litheroy, Seraph AA of Revelation, is in GMPack adventure, Feast of Blades. Alaemon, Impudite DP of Secrets, is there too. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:02:09 -0400 From: Martin Leslie Leuschen (by way of Elizabeth McCoy) Subject: IN> Dream Cats Babysitter: - ---------- Large walleyed siamese tom. Not friendly with adults, it will in fact be hostile to any adult who isn't a mother, and will be nicer to mothers directly with the youth of their children, getting outright friendly to a woman with a baby. It will tend to bond to a particular family, preferably one with a large number of young children, staying with them until the children reach their teens. Children will be tolerated in a seemingly indifferent manner. The cat will not seem affectionate, but it won't be cruel either. It will tolerate naive insults to it's person (ex. a baby pulling its tail) and will deal swift retribution for deliberate insults. (A toddler pulling it's tail.) It will mainly seem to hang about and watch. However, the cat *will* hang out around its children, and children in it's care will be safe. In hostile situations, Babysitter can become a flying, twisting, lightning-fast ball if raking claws capable of scaring off large predators or hostile adults. The children will find many of their fondest suicidal plans thwarted. ("Mom, the cat ripped up my parachute!") If a meteor is due to strike the town the Babysitter's children redside in, it will do it's level best to get them out of town before it strikes, somehow. The children, in turn, will become cat-like in personality. Normal childlike gregariousness and dependance will be seriously reduced, sleeping habits will become irregular, and the torturing of small animals will become a favourite pastime. Mouser: ______ A slim black female with a tiny white star on her breast, Mouser will catch vermin and other small animals. (As far as mouser is concerned, anything squirrel sized or smaller counts, although things smaller than a mouse will only be hunted as a last resort.) She will catch an extremely large number of vermin. She will bring them all to her chosen human, amassing quite impressive piles if the bodies are left undisturbed. Mouser will catch vermin appropriate for the area she inhabits, but the local vermin population will never seem to decrease. If taken to a place where there are no vermin (space ship, arctic icecap) vermin capable of surviving in that area will appear, and Mouser will begin to catch them, as usual. I hope these fit, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #806 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.