From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 9 10:39:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08121 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:39:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA03340 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:38:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:38:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199806091538.KAA03340@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #815 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 815 In this digest: IN> Off topic Re: IN> Dread Cthulhu RE: IN> IN Campaign Seed: The Third Avatar IN> Shedim and hosts Re: IN> Re: Word Forces (and Tether construction) Re: IN> Tethers for who (Re: Word Forces) Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Re: IN> Recruiting Re: IN> Shedim and hosts IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> Tough Guys - Movie Recommendation Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> Newbie Nattering IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Sorcery and Soldiers of God IN> Newbie Nattering Re: IN> Sorcery and Soldiers of God IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:19:49 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Off topic >>>I know this is way off topic. Let the flames begin.<<< No, no, no flaming. Don't you know, the tradition now is to handle argumentative/controversial/off-topic posts by writing up pertinent Word-bound characters? ;) - -David (no, I am _not_ going to do the Angel/Demon of Gynecologists...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:48:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Dread Cthulhu - ---Julian Breen wrote: > > > Just a few thoughts, anyhow. I hope that they fester in deranged minds. > > :P > > -- > Julian > jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk > Oh, it is, Julian...it is... Hmmmm....Cthulhu wakes from his slumber due to the disturbance in the Symphony...A certain Archangel of War has recently died... Heh heh heh...My players are in BIG trouble now! "Lovecraftian Victory", here we come! Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:01:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: RE: IN> IN Campaign Seed: The Third Avatar On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Robert Addy wrote: > I just have this image of some Aunt May-type person suddenly becoming The Third > Avatar and sending the War into chaos..... I'm reminded of the _Kingdom Come_ graphic novel where, right in the middle of The Big Climactic Fight Between All the Supers In The World, the Spectre looks at this nobody small-town preacher and says, "Choose." It gave me a new perspective on Dominic: Armageddon may very be decided by one seemingly insignificant human, so it is absolutely essential that humanity develop a strong moral sense -- good Judgement, in other words. A very good book, and highly applicable to IN. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:33:52 -0400 From: "Matthias Müller" Subject: IN> Shedim and hosts If I read the IN rulebook right, a human keeps the memories of the possession when a Shedite leaves it. So, he remembers the demonic allies the Shedite visited and possibly their hideouts ? Sounds rather risky, do most Shedites dispose of their hosts after wearing them ? Matthias Instant madness - just add brain ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:44:14 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Word Forces (and Tether construction) gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Picking a single, long-term way to promote your > Word, and working at it for as long as it takes means you are promoting > your Word. soul hits only happen if you get lazy and do nothing at all. You know, I think I'd be inclined to give dissonance for that instead of soul hits. It'd be like the way Gabriel's angels take dissonance if they spend a day without punishing their target. Makes sense also; once you have a word your personal role in the symphony changes so if you don't promote your word then you are engaging in dissonant behaviour. I dunno -- I think some words really can pretty much support themselves and I'd prefer to penalise word-bound if their word is damaged, rather than just for inaction, but it would certainly be a way to keep your players focussed. It also means that a word-bound angel -cannot- afford to get lazy. I dunno. The thing with soul hits is that : a) if you were really lazy, you could ultimately get soul-killed for doing nothing, which seems a bit off to me although it might be more what you had in mind. b) Don't celestials regenerate 1 soul hit a day anyway? c) a little song of healing will soon clear that up, especially with the essence reserves that a word-bound might have. This is also why I'd hit celestials where it hurts and start removing forces if their word really suffers. Life can be so tough ;) jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:03:56 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Tethers for who (Re: Word Forces) In a message dated 98-06-08 16:01:14 EDT, you write: > Hmmm...only Archangels and Demon Princes? I can think of two reasons for > that. Which one do you think is closer to canon, or are they both equally > valid? > > 1) Making a tether requires an enormous amount of power. While > (theoretically) any Word-bound could make one, only the Archangels and > Demon Princes really have the power to do so. > > 2) Tethers have to be tended to and protected. Theoretically, any > Word-bound could make a tether. However, most Word-bound don't have the > sheer number of Servitors required to maintain and protect their tether. > The Archangels and Demon Princes, on the other hand, do. > I would tend to think that No. 1 here would be the case (particularly after having read the discussion about Furfur's lack of a tether, which I found particularly useful BTW ... because I am one who likes the idea of Furfur's DP status). But as far as your No. 2 goes, remember that a tether doesn't have to be a very large place (it could be a janitorial closet for all we know, and its only protector could be the seneschal janitor What can I say, maybe Eli has got some strange tethers scattered about -- he certainly does in my campaign although this isn't one of them). One of my players tossed about the amusing notion of creating a kyrio or shedim who had no special powers, songs, skills or such, but dumped all the beginning CP's into servants, a veritable demon or angelic "gang". Hypothetically, if word bound were allowed to create tethers, this character might have all the protectors it needed, provided that it was a small tether. -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "...one man's mundane and desperate existence is another man's Technicolor." -- from "Strange Days" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:30:06 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts - ---------- > From: Matthias Müller > To: INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> Shedim and hosts > Date: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 1:33 AM > > If I read the IN rulebook right, a human keeps the memories of the > possession when a Shedite leaves it. So, he remembers the demonic > allies the Shedite visited and possibly their hideouts ? Sounds rather > risky, do most Shedites dispose of their hosts after wearing them ? > > Matthias > Instant madness - just add brain How about just leaving them in a 'compromising' situation...? In one book I read, a body-switching sorcerer just left his 'cast off' bodies in situations that were almost certain death (poison, hanging, bottom of river ect, ect..). Nobody is going to think anything of it esp if the host writes a suicide note before jumping off a bridge or holding a gun to a police officers head in front of a news crew.... y'know, sometimes I worry myself when I come up with those ideas... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:20:45 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Recruiting At 03:23 PM 5/6/98 +0100, you wrote: >Peter wrote: >> He gives you three chances to choose the best option. Which do you >prefer? > >*** >(OH DEAR. SUDDENLY ALL BECOMES CLEAR. I THINK PERHAPS A FEW HELPFUL POINTERS >ON RECRUITMENT MIGHT BE IN ORDER, MY DEAR, LEST SOME OF SAMINGA'S SERVITORS >BECOME... OVERENTHUSIASTIC. > 'You got it, dread lord!' ) >*** >_Recruitment and Training of Mortals_ (or 'You just can't get the staff >these days') **Stuff better than I have ever written snipped** Just sort of wanted to say wow, glad I gave you that staight line to hit. Sometimes playing the straight man isn't such a bad thing. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 09:37:17 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Shedim and hosts Matthias Müller wrote: > If I read the IN rulebook right, a human keeps the memories of the > possession when a Shedite leaves it. So, he remembers the demonic > allies the Shedite visited and possibly their hideouts ? Sounds rather > risky, do most Shedites dispose of their hosts after wearing them ? Correct, humans keep a memory of that which the Shedim did but may not recognize it for what it is. Also I imagine that Shedim tend to work alone a great deal of the time because no one in Hell really understands tham beside another Shedim. The other option is that that do tend to work in groups often have attunements that completely drive out the host mind. Some examples of stuff a Shedim can do without alerting the hosts memory of weirdness: Use secret hand signs and gestures to convey information to their partners. The human will remember making the gestures but not why or necessarily to whom. The human has no connection into the thoughts of the Shedim. Speak in prearranged codes so that your partners know who and what you are despite the flesh suit you are wearing. A catch phrase or a whistling a certain song work well. Make sure to let your friends know not to divulge information to you while in your flesh suit. Use songs such as the ethereal song of tongues to communicate to your allies. Again the human has no connection to your mind so will not necessarily have any clue. Just make sure to let your allies know not to speak any information out loud. Only work with other Shedim and be careful. This is a bit subtle but if you work with a group of Shedim and meet in different places every time you can come in different flesh suits each time and get some things done while conspiring to commit corruption. This works best if you read the next one as well. Only speak in the Demonic tongue when talking about stuff your flesh suit really shouldn't know. As far as the human is concerned he was humming around with a bunch of other blokes for no particular reason, all the while a devious conversation was going on. If this is done carefully you could even get away with it in a crowded bar amoungst a crowd, as long as you knew everyone in the place and none of them were Angels who could identify if not translate your speach. Other stuff Shedim can do: Always kill your hosts. Always leave your host in a situation in which absolutely no one will believe anything he says. Would you believe a single word said by a man you just saw eat his own fecal matter in the center of Times Square? Sort of a corrolary to the above. Always leave your host in trouble with the law, preferably big trouble. Kill someone and begin to eat them in a public place then leave the flesh suit. Would you believe a single word that Bundy or Manson had to say? Corrupt your host pretty completely then leave them to the wind knowing whatever it was they found out. As long as you were fairly careful about exactly what they knew it could be beneficial to your side. Imagine that you have been corrupted by a Shedim and have done some rather nasty stuff. You remember talking to some poeple that you had never talked to before you started to change. You might seek tham out to see if they had any information for you, perhaps why you did these things. If the Shedim's allies know about what is going on they have the perfect opportunity to recruit a new servant. Totally corrupt and ready to serve. Ruin your hosts life in such a way that the roles of local Angels could be blamed. Plant some evidence that these roles were involved. Let the human go and cause trouble. This can be dangerous and works best if the evidence isn't actually planted, but is real although untrue. Example: Flesh suit is corrupted into commiting adultry (then it just gets worse of course, younger girls, men, etc.), wife of flesh suit calls in a private investigator (PCs love roles like that, don't they?), PI ruins the life of the flesh suit with nasty pictures, wife leaves and so does the Shedim, Flesh suit can't blame wife for leaving but he can blame PI for getting involved. What will our hapless mortal do to ruin the life of our private investigator, tune in next week and find out. Just some thoughts. Andrew Who still stays up late at night getting the creeps about Shedim. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:40:35 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Dear List Has anyone seen Anastasis? I must admit I haven't but what my housemate told me about it + the recent mentions of Communism [gee who started that (% ] made me think someone might be interested. Apparently as the action starts in Tzarist Russia there are lots of happy beautiful people living in castles and even the peasants who don't live in castles seem pretty well off. Then along comes nasty evil monk Rasputin who curses the Tzar, selling his soul in the process and causing every thing to fall into decay allowing the Communists to take over. Does anyone have a problem with the messages this might be sending to the likely young audience of this animated feature? What I see here are 1 Non-mainline religeous leaders are evil and probably in league with Satan; 2 Absolute states like Monarchies are fun places where everyone is happy; 3 Socialism is Evil; 4 Resistance to the Establishment is only possble with Diabolic aid and then results only is a worse situation where everyone is much less happy (if not slaughtered in their thousands). Makes me wonder what drugs the Disney writers are on so I can stay well away from them. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:47:06 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Tough Guys - Movie Recommendation Dear List I was at home on the weekend and my parents pulled out an old movie they taped, must be nearly a deccade ago. The flick in question is called Tough Guys and stars Burt Lancaster and Kurt Douglas as two american gangsters who get out of prison after doing a 30 years stretch for robbing a train. They encounter a lot of people who treat them like pegs to be stuck in the appropriate holes and spend most of their energy resisting these efforts to reduce their individuality and freedom. Not much IN related material, but about half way through they struck me as very likely some sort of agent for Janus, in an understated way. Otherwise it's a pretty good comedy from the times before every movie had to have buckets of blood to be action and every fourth word an expletive to be comedy. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 08:56:48 -0500 From: Drew Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia >Makes me wonder what drugs the Disney writers are on so I can stay well >away from them. > >Thanking you for your indulgence. > >Regards, Peter. > Errr. Disney didn't do Anastasia. In fact, I recall it was done by a bunch of ex-employees of them. Seeing as I agree with your assessment, I think ol' Walt would've rolled over in his grave if it had, seeing as he was buddies with that Fine Old Man from Wisconsin of the 50s, McCarthy. - -Drew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 09:55:39 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Peter Frederick wrote: > Has anyone seen Anastasis? I must admit I haven't but what my housemate > told me about it + the recent mentions of Communism [gee who started that > (% ] made me think someone might be interested. Disney didn't make Anastasia. It was their rivals. > Does anyone have a problem with the messages this might be sending to the > likely young audience of this animated feature? > > What I see here are 1 Non-mainline religeous leaders are evil and probably > in league with Satan; 2 Absolute states like Monarchies are fun places > where everyone is happy; 3 Socialism is Evil; 4 Resistance to the > Establishment is only possble with Diabolic aid and then results only is a > worse situation where everyone is much less happy (if not slaughtered in > their thousands). Nah. Not really. Why? Well, let's review the message most movies send to their audiences: 1) Mainstream religious leaders are evil and out to prevent you from doing what you want when you want. Religions only exist to give you guilt and tell you you are doing wrong. 2) Whatever government happens to be in charge at the time is evil, no matter what. Government should be eliminated. 3) Anybody who doesn't believe in the political views of the director is evil. 4) Resistance to the establishment is almost mandatory, no matter what (see #2 above). Of course, that's not even touching the historical end of Anastasia. My understanding of the plot is that, while they took some liberties with it, it is still more historically accurate than most "historical" Disney movies. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Put me down, Uncle!" Shiro cried. "I have to go back and get one of those guns!" "You couldn't even *lift* one!" Tomokato said. "I could!" Shiro insisted. "I have the strength of madness!" -"Samurai Cat in the Real World", by Mark E. Rogers - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:03:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Peter Frederick wrote: > Makes me wonder what drugs the Disney writers are on so I can stay > well away from them. Wondering about the *Disney* writers is a little irrelevant, since "Anastasia" isn't a Disney cartoon. It's by Don Bluth, who did the "American Tail" cartoons. I think he also did the "All Dogs Go to Heaven" cartoons and the "Land Before Time" ones, too. Cartoon politics, much like real-world politics, is incapable of handling anything more subtle than us-vs-them, so if the Commies are bad, anyone opposed to the Commies must be good, on the ancient fallacy that my enemy's enemy is my friend. As to Rasputin, I'm not sure he's depicted as a "non-mainline religious leader." He's this spooky monster. Yeah, they mention he's a renegade monk. In so far as any attention is paid to "monk," that's quite mainline. As for renegade, well, he was (or at least is remembered as) a classic instance of a domineering cult-leader type who corrupted his social circle. It's not like they were using him to smear a denomination. If anything, he could be taken as a smear at the religious mainstream. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:11:19 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > What I see here are 1 Non-mainline religeous leaders are evil and probably > in league with Satan; 2 Absolute states like Monarchies are fun places > where everyone is happy; 3 Socialism is Evil; 4 Resistance to the > Establishment is only possble with Diabolic aid and then results only is a > worse situation where everyone is much less happy (if not slaughtered in > their thousands). > > Makes me wonder what drugs the Disney writers are on so I can stay well > away from them. Two points: Fairy tales have ALWAYS had the good guys (and some of the bad guys) be nobility. Good nobles mean a happy kingdom, bad nobles (or just the wrong ones) mean misery and ruin. The king is the embodiment of the mandate of God and the kingdom all rolled in one. Plus, Disney didn't do Anastasia. 20th century Fox did, I believe. But, back to In nomine... ;) A demonically-backed monarchy is a great source for plotlines (or even an angelic-inspired one). What happens if, for example, some very, very clever demons (possibly with the help of some ethereals) convince the emperor of Japan that he can actually make a difference in the world? How about Prince Charles? Maybe one of the actual powerful kings and sultans and shahs in the middle east? If I recall correctly, there was as sheik/king that was hiring models in the US, taking them to his country where his word was the law and forcing them to perform sexual acts. No laws were broken, of course, since he made the laws there. On the flip side, what if Princess Di had survived an assassination attempt that killed Charles and his mother back when they were still together? A helful angel or two would love to have a charismatic and powerful mortal ally doing good in the world. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:20:15 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > Disney didn't do Anastasia. In fact, I recall it was done by a bunch of > ex-employees of them. Seeing as I agree with your assessment, I think ol' > Walt would've rolled over in his grave if it had, seeing as he was buddies > with that Fine Old Man from Wisconsin of the 50s, McCarthy. A funny thing (and a source of possible plots) came up about a year ago. They finally released most of the transcripts from the 'Red Scare' era trials. The interesting thing was that many (not all) of those convicted were, in fact, guilty as hell. Now the fun part is deciding whether McCarthy was more influenced by Heaven or Hell? Communism has been, I think we can agree, a net minus on the human rights side of the equation. McCarthy was fighting its encroachment tooth and nail. Did he do more harm than good? Maybe he was acting alone while the demons and angels duked it out in the background, neither side getting enough influence to affect him directly? Let's bring this to a modern IN campaign. Howabout a 'modern' witchhunt? Some guy appears to be a rabid, no-holds-barred, ruthless govt investigator. Throw some angel PCs in a situation where they would be opposed to his actions only to find out he's really fighting their battle. On the flip side, send some demon PCs thinking he is on their side (he sure ACTS like a Habbalah!) only to find out that his actions were serving good more than evil. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:19:54 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: IN> Newbie Nattering The subject says it all. I've just recently purchased _In Nomine_, along with _Night Music_ and the _Angelic Players Guide_. I find the concept of In Nomine utterly fascinating, especially with my somewhat unique religious viewpoint. The character creation system seems resistant to munchkinism, and the writing suggests that a few BOFHs had a hand in the game design. :) So far, my only problem is this: All of the potential scenarios I can envision tend to be either (A) paramilitary/special forces scenarios; or (B) espionage/cold war type scenarios. An example of (A) would be: * Furfur is trying to establish his first tether. He's currently a weak Demon Prince due to his lack of a tether. If he gets one, he'll grow in power. This is unacceptable. Stop him at all costs. An example of (B) would be: * It's come to our attention that the Demon Prince of Role-Playing Games has begun having second thoughts about his Demonic nature, and is seeking redemption. However, he's being closely watched and guarded by Asmodeus and his servitors. It would be a tremendous advantage to Our Side if he were to "leave the reservation." Your job (cue "Mission Impossible" theme) is to sneak into Hell and bring him back to Heaven, where he may complete the process of Redemption and join the Host. I'm sure there are more possibilities than this, but for some reason I can't seem to break out of that mindset. I'm contemplating creating a future setting in which (A) humanity has made it to the stars; and/or (B) the demons have openly subverted the Earth (and possibly other planets). (A) wouldn't change the tone of the game a great deal, I don't think, but (B) would definitely give it a "Hell on Earth" sort of "Call of Cthulhu" sort of "Deadlands" sort of feel. Any thoughts on any of the above would be welcomed. Yours, Afterburner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:26:09 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia >From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC > On the flip side, what if Princess Di had survived >an assassination attempt that killed Charles and his mother >back when they were still together? A helful angel or two >would love to have a charismatic and powerful mortal ally >doing good in the world. Question: Who are you referring to? Fergie? Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:39:23 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: > > >From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC > > > On the flip side, what if Princess Di had survived > >an assassination attempt that killed Charles and his mother > >back when they were still together? A helful angel or two > >would love to have a charismatic and powerful mortal ally > >doing good in the world. > > Question: Who are you referring to? Fergie? "back when they were still together" I'm referring to Di and her kids, of course. Imagine the intrigue you could work around a socially or politically active royal person. And she would only be a regent, if that much... the boys would be a much better target. All the mundane maneuvering would be a bit hectic as well! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:48:14 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Sorcery and Soldiers of God Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >The general theory behind a lot of the ceremonial magic in the >Renaissance and the 19th-century occult revival was to do your >magic and keep your soul safe by working on the side of the >angels, calling on the forces of Heaven to constrain the powers >of hell (and, if I recall correctly, using non-hellish powers >whenever possible). > >Of course, such a line of reasoning is totally unorthodox in >any of the monotheistic religions, but that doesn't stop IN. The sorcery writeup in _The Marches_ made it pretty clear that angels are basically immune to sorcerous powers, and that demons obey sorcerous commands mostly because it nets them willing servants. This is much more in line with regular theology than goetic or hermetic thinking. I liked it, but it's probably inappropriate for a game with a gnostic or other alternative cosmology. >So, yeah, I could see a Solider of God getting coaching in Hermetic >magic, using it to learn Songs and summon Ethereals, and going near >Infernals only in emergencies or as a generally bad mistake. > >Of course, demons are famous for masquerading as angels. There are a number of interesting takes on this in fiction. In James Blish's novels _Black Easter_ and _The Day After Judgement_, there is an order of monks who are all white magicians. There's a lovely scene where they conjures an angel to discover what the angels are going to do about an infernal invasion of the Earth, and then discover that the angels *don't know* this is coming down. There's a bit in R.A. MacAvoy's _Damiano_ where the main character comments that although sorcerers *could* summon angels, most of them didn't, because sorcerers wanted spirits who could tell the future, and angels told the truth instead. C.S. Lewis in _That Hideous Strength_ suggests that "angel" and "demon" are labels describing whether a particular spirit has aligned itself for or against God. He goes on to suggest that all the spirits began neutral and free to choose, but that by the Day of Judgement they will all have aligned themselves either for or against God. Magic is the practice of making deals with spirits. This is why magic was more easily accomplished in olden times -- there were more spirits willing to deal. It also explains why magic's reputation has gotten darker in the days since the age of myth -- nowadays there are few neutral spirits left and only demons will offer power for service. And naturally they offer nasty deals. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:53:59 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Newbie Nattering > I'm sure there are more possibilities than this, but for some > reason I can't seem to break out of that mindset. You can have a lot of fun doing stuff where the 'other side' never even shows up in any obvious way. There is a lot of fun interaction to be had between angels/ demons and ordinary mortals who they are influencing, I think. Only the most warlike words spend all of their time fighting, and even then they'll need to deal with mortals as well. One idea I had was having Yves (or Eli, or maybe even Janus) informing one of the PCs that they have to get some mortal guy to finish writing a short story he is working on, and get it published. What they find when they locate him is that he's just been diagnosed with lung cancer (or AIDS if you are determined to be trendy :) ) and has been given 6 months to live .. and is upset and angry about this to such an extent that he can't see the point in finishing his story. Can they teach him to enjoy the last few months he has left and finish that dratted story? (NB. I have a weird fatalistic approach to mortal lifespans. IMG they are written into the book of life when the mortal is born. The span of the life is absolutely fixed and neither fate nor destiny can change that. Of course, what the mortal does with his/her life and the manner in which they die may be quite fluid.. If someone is going to die in 6 months time then it doesn't matter if the angels cure his cancer, he might get run over by a car instead. This is why the angels never killed Hitler et al ;) That wasn't an option.) Or keep the other side in the background, so they have to deal with the results of demonic plots, rather than the actual demons themselves. eg. (Sorry for always using angelic examples.. it's just been mostly what I had been thinking of) One of the angels' mortal sidekicks has just found out that his great-aunt had died and asks them to come to the funeral with him. Whilst there, they meet the rest of his (rich) family who are quite open about how much money they are going to inherit, but also a plain clothes policeman who can tell them that he is investigating the old age home which the old lady had been in. It will turn out that several people have been benefactors of wills written by rich people in this home who have died over the past year or so. Of course they were all old, so the deaths aren't unexpected but... The home is actually run by a lilim of death and her pet vampire. The lilim makes a point of being chatty with the old people and their relatives, and waits until she resonates one of the relatives who _really_ needs the money. She can find ways to get geases on the old people, enough to get them to rewrite their wills, and then her vampire can kill them off quietly in the dead of night, smothering with a pillow. But she now has level 6 geases on a whole ton of rich and influential mortals. How do the PCs get to the bottom of this and what will they do when they have? I dunno if those help much as examples. I don't think you have to always have someone giving the PCs orders.I have a feeling that my PCs would have fun even if all I told them to do was walk down the street and buy a newspaper. Angels usually _want_ to help people, whether they are ordered to or not. Demons usually want to help themselves, whether they are ordered to or not. If you can't think of a plot, just dump them somewhere and let them get on with doing just that :) jo ps. I liked the idea about the demons having openly subverted the earth! You could have huge neon billboards all over the place advertising Shal-Mari and stuff! - --- 'Any smoothly functioning technology is indistinguishable from a really well-rigged demo.' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:58:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Sorcery and Soldiers of God Yeah, for IN, a white magician would almost certainly be aware that he was getting favors from angels, rather than coercing them. He'd probably get strict warnings against calling demons. If he didn't heed them, he probably wouldn't stay white or alive for long. Unless he can deal with Ethereals, he probably reduces to a Soldier of God or a servitor, with an ability for calling angels (who still have the option of not picking up the receiver). He might be different from most servitors, in that he might have contacts with many different angels instead of just being the flunkey for one angel or a single angel team (like the the PCs). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:12:59 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: >>From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC >> A helful angel or two >> would love to have a charismatic and powerful mortal ally >> doing good in the world. > Question: Who are you referring to? Fergie? Nah, he said 'charismatic.' ;-) I think an enterprising demon with the celestial song of form should be able to recruit a ton of people to a 'cult of Diana' though! (Was going to say 'recruit a ton of americans' as they seem to worship her more than most Brits I know, but they are people too!) jo, feeling fiendish today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 11:08:40 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > Let's bring this to a modern IN campaign. Howabout >a 'modern' witchhunt? Child abuse. Child molestation. I can't recall specifics, but there was that incident a few years ago in which a physically deformed and slightly mentally retarded guy was convicted of child molestation at a day care center. Later it was discovered that the prosecution was very much shaping and leading the testimony of the children in private examination (since they didn't want the kids to be "embarassed" on the stand), and that the guy was innocent. Afterburner Cherub (or possibly Malakite or Mercurian)of Anti-Spammers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:18:53 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > Has anyone seen Anastasis? I must admit I haven't but what my housemate > told me about it + the recent mentions of Communism [gee who started that > (% ] made me think someone might be interested. uh..I'm partially to blame I think...sorry, just don't like communism...lost a friend to a commie terrorist in Italy couple of years ago...red guard was the common theory at the time, but we were never sure... never forgive, never forget... > Does anyone have a problem with the messages this might be sending to the > likely young audience of this animated feature? > heh. Disney corp has gotten into some very wierd and questionable stuff of late...check out some of thier recent aquistions if you don't believe me...I'd repeat them here, but you won't believe it unless you look it up you're selves... > What I see here are 1 Non-mainline religeous leaders are evil and probably > in league with Satan; you mean they aren't? 2 Absolute states like Monarchies are fun places > where everyone is happy; Well, if you happen to be the ruler and not the ruled, sure... 3 Socialism is Evil; yep. I agree. 4 Resistance to the > Establishment is only possble with Diabolic aid and then results only is a > worse situation where everyone is much less happy (if not slaughtered in > their thousands). > not always...peaceful change is possible, but not a fast or as popular as a good revolution...after all, can't loot the presidental palace if the guy just up and quits now can you? what fun is that? Plus, since the evil guy stocked up on all that ammo, it'd be a shame to let it go to waste now wouldn't it? > Makes me wonder what drugs the Disney writers are on so I can stay well > away from them. the yellow ones, of course... > > Thanking you for your indulgence. > > Regards, Peter. > > Reply to peterf@wr.com.au > May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #815 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.