From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 15 03:54:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10209 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:54:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id DAA27067 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:19:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:19:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199806150819.DAA27067@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #824 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 824 In this digest: Re: IN> Jack Chick, Balseraph of Factions? IN> Bye, all. IN> The List IN> In Nomine PROTECTORS Re: IN> Bye, cd! Re: IN> The List Re: IN> Sorcery and Soldiers of God IN> Not Wanted on the Voyage Re: IN> Native Americans and others IN> Tethers Re: IN> The List IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> The List Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:33:46 -0400 From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> Jack Chick, Balseraph of Factions? Afterburner wrote: > > For those who don't know the name, Jack Chick publishes those > ubiquitous religious tracts that you occasionally see left as a tip for a > waiter or lying discarded on the street. One of his more "humorous" ones > can be found at: > I have the honor of knowing several waitresses as friends, and they wouldn't take to kindly to someone leaving a Chick tract as a tip... > http://www.rpg.net/252/quellen/darkdungeons/index.html > The ones on Rock music are even more humorous. Gee, why is the only source of information about Satanic Druids giving blessings to rock albums found in Chick tracts? I would have thought that Bill Kurtis would have done an Investigative Reports on it by now if it were truly happening (how's that for obscure?). >[snip samples] > The above is just a sample, but you should begin to get the idea > that Mr. Chick comes from a very conservative, fundamentalist theological > position. In his eyes, Catholics aren't Christians, the Vatican is the > "Whore of Babylon," Jews are doomed to Hell, AIDS is God's punishment for > homosexuality, true Christians shouldn't observe Halloween, ad infinitum, > ad nauseum. > I am reminded that as a teenager, I used to hand out Chick tracts during my "holy roller" years (okay, maybe only once or twice... but you get the idea). These may be his more "inflammatory" tracts, but there were some of his that I found rather poignant. There was one in particular that was told completely in pictures without dialogue or captions. It told of two children, tainted with Original Sin, who find Christ and are washed clean by the blood of His loving sacrifice on the cross. Perhaps we would be too quick to judge Mr. Chick so harshly as a Balseraph of Factions. He would seem too easy a target. He's a human, and just like the rest of us, he is easily misguided. Despite his inflammatory tracts at times seeming to promote anti-Semitism, anti-Catholicism, anti-RPG, anti-Rock Music, and anti-anything else secular, I believe that he started with good intentions... he just strayed very quickly. Maybe he is deceived by a Balseraph of Factions (Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson?) That would be funny.... - -- Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7789233/ UIN: 7789233 http://www.accessdenied.net/cgi-bin/main.cgi?userid=326&newuser=profile MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:36:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: cd skogsberg Subject: IN> Bye, all. As I start working tomorrow morning at 6:45, I won't have time to keep up with the IN list for a while (a month and a half or so). I do promise that if I come up with a nice story or something similar I'll send it on... /cd, editing a few lines in .procmailrc... - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:53:29 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: IN> The List Man, this list just DIES on the weekends, doesn't it? AB (Who's jealous, figuring you're all off playing In Nomine) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:45:56 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: IN> In Nomine PROTECTORS David Edelstein wrote: > > Ditto! Welcome to the small, lonely club of Ringworld RPG fans! Not so small... I even have extra copies (in case anyone is looking ). To drag this back on topic, anyone familiar with Niven's work considered setting thei IN campaign in his future, with the threats of Protectors and Core Explosions to deal with (the latter gets my vote for Kobal's big joke, BTW ). - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - I *am* one of the Chosen Few! ICQ - 13719605 AIM - talmeta1 TANJ Lives! - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 07:01:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Bye, cd! - ---cd skogsberg wrote: > > As I start working tomorrow morning at 6:45, I won't have time to keep up > with the IN list for a while (a month and a half or so). I do promise that > if I come up with a nice story or something similar I'll send it on... > > /cd, editing a few lines in .procmailrc... > -- > d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg > > :( You'll be missed... Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> The List - ---Afterburner wrote: > > Man, this list just DIES on the weekends, doesn't it? > > AB > (Who's jealous, figuring you're all off playing In Nomine) > > It does, doesn't it? That's why I like weekends...gives me a chance to catch up! :) Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation "Bored? Check out The Reliquary! "http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/46/ "You'll love it, guaranteed!" _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 07:51:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Sorcery and Soldiers of God > Coming soon to a list near you: > Dr Stranger, Sorcerer Supreme of Creation > > Bart Hammerly > Calabim of Fire > Oh no.....NOOOO! Isn't Supergirl enough? :) Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:28:37 -0500 From: "James Anderson" Subject: IN> Not Wanted on the Voyage For an interesting take on celestials coming to earth and Yahweh making a rare earth appearance, try the book "Not Wanted on the Voyage" by Timothy Findley. If nothing else, one would get a great kick out of all the characterizations. Great literature otherwise :) Thanks, James ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:09:12 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others At 15:37 12/06/98 -0500, you wrote: >Emily K. Dresner wrote: > >> How did the gods of Central America get destroyed in the Purity >> Crusade, if that ended in 735 (?) AD and the Olmecs didn't establish >> their civilization until around 1000 AD? And the Gods of the >> region were doing just fine until the Conquistadors came and wiped >> out the civilizations? > >It is possible that some deities were regenerated by their >believers after the Crusade. It is also possible that the deities >were not there and the worshippers were unaware of the fact. > What he said. Also if you don't mind being politically incorrect they might have just been worshipping some enterprising demons, or just bits of rock with names they had made up. In my understanding of the IN-verse, an ethereal god isn't actually created by its worshippers. They either exist or they don't, so you could have people worshipping something from a story that just doesn't exist... (except maybe in a few dreamscapes) jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:56:42 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: IN> Tethers Any ideas on Tethers in the San Franciso area? My recent campaign ended apruptly, when San Diego was engulfed in a 200 Megaton blast, due to some uncareful Malakim of War, and a deranged Serph of Fire. Needless to say Dominic is going to be on them like white on rice. Saminga was happy about this. Gabriel was saddened but took a chance to go sunbathing. -David C. Shadle "Non sempre ea sunt quae videntur" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:52:35 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> The List > > Man, this list just DIES on the weekends, doesn't it? Yes, ut don't feel bad, the Warhammer 40,000 list I'm on does the same thing, as did the Ars Magica, Babylon Project........ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:39:19 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? > >To: "Listserv In Nomine" > > With all this talk about Native American and other pagan deities > twinking > >about in the Ethereal plane -and- the current discussion over the > origins of > >Judaism, I've begun to speculate about a YHWH loitering in the Marches > as > >well. Possibly even a Christian God with a severe case of Multiple > >Personality Disorder. > > Human belief, in whichever form, doesn't line up with the way > celestials > >actually exist. I'd say that many of the world religions "have it > right" to > >some extent: there are compassionate beings who return from paradise to > >continue helping mankind (Buddhism's bohdisattvas), there are angels > and > >demons actively working to win a war (various), etc. etc. Old Testament > >theology, however, isn't any more in line with The Truth (canon > presentation > >of history and celestials) than the others. And Christianity doesn't > have it > >near right, either. Seems like you have a widely divergant idea from canonical In Nomine (at least as I've seen it). Let's see, God, Satan, Garden, Angels, dead returning on occasion, Apocolypse, good people doing bad things, bad people doing worse things. Nope, it's all there. Where I think we disagree is this; the pagan gods were created by the faith of the various people and were for the most part local phenomena. This strikes me as doubly true as all of the accounts of the classical world I have read refer to the travellers of the time being preoccupied with who the local dieties were, while they still worshipped as they wanted, oft times switching religions for their own reasons. (This is one reason why the Jews stood out so much). While I can understand why you would postulate a YHWH and (schizoprenic?) Christian March god, I would disagree because Lawrence and Dominic have sewn up Christian worship for (for want of a better term) God Incarnate. By default, Judaism is in there too; and Khalid and Gabby both have an interest in keeping Islam worship going to God Incarnate. This means that the Essence streams you envision going to a bearded guy with sandals isn't going to the Marches at all, it's going to the Big Guy. But, hey, it's your game... Which brings up a tricky question. In the Halls of Worship, it is a given the God Incarnate, by whatever ritual or belief structure is being worshipped. What is the cut off point for Ethereal entity to God? You state there is none. Canon says otherwise. I think that when a strong personality and iconography are forced on the limited Archtype, then you get an Ethereal Entity. It is the somewhat rare person or faith of the past who worshipped Divinity itself which are esconced in the Halls. Just an opinion ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:04:16 -0400 From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: IN> The List David C. Shadle wrote: > > > > > Man, this list just DIES on the weekends, doesn't it? > > Yes, ut don't feel bad, the Warhammer 40,000 list I'm on does the same > thing, as did the Ars Magica, Babylon Project........ I think that most of this is because most of the members of this list are subscribed through e-mail addresses from work or school and they just don't have access to it during the weekend. I'm subscribed through home (I don't have a work e-mail address, and I don't go to school), so I can respond to the list any day of the week. - -- Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7789233/ UIN: 7789233 http://www.accessdenied.net/cgi-bin/main.cgi?userid=326&newuser=profile MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:23:39 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Ahem, I believe I received a rather scathing attack for what was basically, an example to illustrate a point. Others were speaking about which religions were right or wrong and i said that according to In Nomine any person, no matter what the creed, if he achieves his Destiny he gets in to Heaven, same as a Muslim who achieves his fate is going to Hell no matter whether Islam maybe a right religion. I used the term Native American shaman to show a divergence from Western religion and philosophy, and instead i get charged with being un-politically correct via the Native Americans! Good thing I mentioned PC, because insisting i call shamans 'spiritual leaders' is like a PC person telling me I should call the blind the vision impaired! it doesn't change the fact that they're blind. Do we even know what a shaman is, and by this i am speaking to the person who attacked me not to any one else who is uninvolved, a shaman is one of two types of religious figures, the other being the priest, one is part of a hierarchy, a church, a temple, and is bound by dogma. The other has no hierarchy, no strictures, and generally performs his duties by instinct, as well as honoring traditions of the past, I think at least the original Native American religious figures fell in to the shaman category. As for the nations, well of course I know that not all Ameri-indians are alike, not all Australian aboriginies are alike, most indiginous peoples who develop in large areas are going to diverge. And there is nothing wrong with refering to them as a whole, I myself am more specifically South Australian but if someone calls me Australian I wont get angry. So whether one is Cherokee, Iriquois, Arawak, Apache or of any other tribe or nation he is still classed in the Native American category as far as census is concerned. This is all I'll have to say on list about this, rest assured that most realize that what i said was just an example, not a thesis on Ameri-Indian culture, if it was this is most definately the wrong place to air it. Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:35:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others One question and a pair of definitions. Someone suggested that NONE of the religions are completely right. This raises a few issues. For example, why is it that none of the religions have it completely right? Wouldn't be in Heaven's best interest to teach humanity the truth religion practiced in Heaven and if so, why are haven't angels taken an effort to teach us the true faith? Maybe almost all (we will exclude Branch Davidians and Nazi Wotanics and many other such faiths) of the religions are completely right. Makes a lot more sense to me. "Everything true." "Even false things?" "Even false things are true." "How can that be?" "I don't know man, I didn't do it." - -Malaclypse the Younger and Pope Poop from the Principia Discordia Anyway, I have anthropological definitions for shaman and priest. A shaman is a spiritual person (not always a leader) who intercedes between the sprits and man on the behalf and for the benefit of man, usually with some temporal desire in mind (sickness, poverty, death, etc.). Shamans are mainly found in tribal societies and often perform additional work, although they often receive gifts from the community. Many shamans use drugs to go to meet with the sprits. Sprits are usually viewed as more approachable than gods, closer to man's level and involved in daily life. A priest is an intercessionist and usually a leader between the gods and man usually for the benefit of the gods. They often speak of moral needs and spiritual concerns. Typically, a priest's needs are provided by the community. A god is a being of great power, but usually apart from daily life. These definitions are paraphrased from Robert Haviland's text -Cultural Anthropology-. Has anyone else noticed that public radio, bastion of political correctness that is is, hasn't been using Native America but rather just Indian? S'okay by me, I am happy "amerind" never caught on, doesn't roll off (my) tounge. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:34:08 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > >It is possible that some deities were regenerated by their > >believers after the Crusade. It is also possible that the deities > >were not there and the worshippers were unaware of the fact. > > > > What he said. Also if you don't mind being politically incorrect they might > have just been worshipping some enterprising demons, or just bits of rock > with names they had made up. In my understanding of the IN-verse, an > ethereal god isn't actually created by its worshippers. They either exist > or they don't, so you could have people worshipping something from a story > that just doesn't exist... (except maybe in a few dreamscapes) I dislike this explaination. Other then it's very historically incorrect, it's slanderous to a civilization which rivalled Europe in several technological advances and population, and gives the shaft to a very _large_ body of people who live in modern day Central America - usually given the shaft because, face it, poor people are boring and no one cares about several million disenfranchised Mexican Indians. I suspect it's another In Nomine Copout (tm) - Patent Pending, soon to have a whole line of merchandise, check back in a gaming store near you. I already have my t-shirt. I thought about this a while, and I sort of came up with a different approach to saying 'They all worshipped nothing at all.' So here's a little brain dump, see what ya like, rant at what you don't. Weva, man, knock yerself silly. ************************************************* Take for gospel that the Purity Crusade ended when Uriel ended, 7-something AD. Near the end, Uriel had wiped out nearly all the historically relevant ethereal gods of the time, coinciding with the spread of Christianity into the pagan lands, and the rising tide of popularity of Islam as it made it to the Western African Coast. Uriel missed all the important Pagan gods who became Saints and lead toward all sorts of fun things, but he was a bit dim, and we forgive him. Uriel only killed the ethereal gods that were so popular and left so many shrines and temples and artifacts people would remember 1000 years later anyway - which defeated his purpose, really, but like I said, he was a little bit dim and had no taste for history. So Uriel is gone. Dead. Kaput. Long live Laurence. Some of the Ethereals were much smarter then Uriel, and they had lived longer in the Marches then he could comprehend without having to stop and count on his fingers, and they knew it's ways. They understood that there was more to the unFormed Lands then just these little pockets of activity, called by the nearsighted, pretentious, and vaguely annoying inhabitants as 'Heaven' and 'Hell'. The ethereals could just curl up in their little underworlds and wait for this little annoyance to pass. In the long range of time, or even in the range of the existence of Mankind who worshipped them, this was nothing. This wasn't like when Yahweh originally showed up on the scene and made a ruckus through his worshippers - parting the Red Sea indeed - who needed that sort of show of power? This Uriel guy was just a spoiled brat who had an annoying knack for lopping off heads that poked up to see which way the wind was blowing. But all things pass. Just wait. And so they did. And when it was over, they came back out again into the sunshine and sighed. Of course, the denizens of the unFormed Lands didn't realize how much time had really passed, and when they poked their noses up, the inhabitants of 'Heaven' and 'Hell' had really been up to no good. They'd taken Europe, Northern Africa, and Arabia. Luckily for the Ethereals, those of 'Heaven' and 'Hell' took a short view of things in general, and while they warred between themselves and Crusaded among themselves and generally beat their chests to show who could get the most followers to go off to their deaths in the name of greed, land, and God, the Ethereals went off to go reclaim the rest of the world, which was doing just fine, relatively. In Central America, there were several promising tribes which were in the steps of really becoming a civilization. They had a fully formed ancestor worship, the basics of real stone masonry, agriculture, and social dynamics. Granted, the tribes were warring with each other, but we can't expect much from big batches of talking monkeys. Some new Ethereals who never really had much of a following before came into being unhindered by such annoyances as Purity Crusades, and flowered, fully blossomed. Mankind restarted the cycle of civilization, Mankind brought the ethereals forth fully formed, Mankind raised temples and rites and art to them, Mankind rebuilt the Marches that were once destroyed. And in all honesty, the new Gods of the Central American civilizations couldn't have really given a whoop about the War and the celestial's little strip of the Marches, for Mankind had formed for them the 'Harrowing of Hell' which made Hell look like a children's party. But prophecy will bite you in the butt every time. Maybe they should have paid attention. 'The raised wooden standard shall come!' cried the Mayan prophet Chilam Balam, 'Our lord comes, Itza! Our elder brother comes, oh men of Tantun! Receive your guests, the bearded men, the men of the east, the bearers of the sign of God, Lord!' The rest, as they say, is history. If it was Heaven, who had come to a decision that an untouched civilization, rivalling in size, and surpassing in certain forms of technology as Europe, just had to go, or Hell was just taking advantage of the new spirit of conquest to the so-called Heathen Lands, we'll never know. They say that history is written by the victors, and those who really know the score, the Ethereals, are long dead now and lack comment on the topic. Either side, Heaven or Hell, has long since spun and respun the story of what had happened on the eve of conquest so many ways that they could have had the blossoming Aztec and Incan civilizations bloodthursty maniacs which ritually disembowled their first born daughters and wore the intestines as a hat the and so-called civilized European humans would buy it. It's all about how you package it, really, and in this way it's packaged in the form of forgotten bloody Mayan Indian riots in the 1920's and the hundred years long wish and dream of secession from Mexico. So in modern day, as your worldly Celestial goes tripping through the museums peering at the jade masks and inlaid shields and large books of strange figures, they know that, whoever these people were, they're gone now to make the world a safer, happier place. I mean, we can't have a world where there are large civilizations of people who don't worship Yahweh, what would the neighbors say? Thank God above for Uriel, who had the foresight to kill off all these evil nasty Gods years ago to make the world safe and comfortable before they really got started. He cleaned the world of these terrible gods to pave the way for Yahweh, so we could save these people from worshipping nothing at all. He really got what he deserved, in the end. ************************************************** History is written by the victors - and history does not necessarily mean truth. Those who don't know it are doomed to hear it on mailing lists from irate PMS stricken maniacs. (Boy, am _I_ in a mood. Therefore, I am going to bed, to make the world safe for Celestials Everywhere.) - - Em, Head of the Equal Ethereal Rights Movement. Here's your pamphlet! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:35:18 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others At 23:35 14/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > > Wouldn't be in Heaven's >best interest to teach humanity the truth religion practiced in Heaven and >if so, why are haven't angels taken an effort to teach us the true faith? Well, why don't angels just come clean to humanity in general about their existence? That would be an easy way to teach people what was really going on... I'm figuring that what people actually believe in is maybe less important to heaven than is sometimes thought. What heaven in general really wants is to crush hell and to get as many mortal souls as possible to reach their destinies/ end up in heaven. Vice versa for hell. So if an archangel sponsors a religion it is likely to be: a) To stop an ethereal parasite from draining mortal essence and getting mortal soldiers (ie. if the ethereal is already dead then it is not such a major problem) b) Because they believe it will help more people to achieve their destinies c) Because they want to do interesting social experiments with mortals d) Because they are control freaks (pick one or more of the above at will :) ) This assumes that, as Simon said, heaven is open to those of any religion who achieve their destinies/ do lots of good deeds. Those AAs who teach differently are doing it from other motives (good motives, one would hope), which may or may not later get perverted by other people who have different aims. I'd also assume that God (if you have a campaign in which He exists and is not just another ethereal) actually does not need people's prayers in the same way that ethereal parasites do. He managed to create the universe et al without any help of that kind. I'll still note that we haven't yet had (and probably never will) any examples of DPs sponsoring religions. >Maybe almost all (we will exclude Branch Davidians and Nazi Wotanics and >many other such faiths) of the religions are completely right. Be fair :) If every religion is right, why exclude the ones you dislike? jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:03:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Jesse L. Rooney wrote: > Someone suggested that NONE of the religions are completely right. This > raises a few issues. For example, why is it that none of the religions > have it completely right? Wouldn't be in Heaven's > best interest to teach humanity the truth religion practiced in Heaven and > if so, why are haven't angels taken an effort to teach us the true faith? Because that would be cheating. Y'see, God -could- descend from On High with Full and Terrible Countenance, and the entire world would know that yes, God exists, and so you'd better worship Him. But that would invalidate the whole notion of faith. So humanity sort of stumbles along, figuring things out as it gets older. It's helped along with helpful things like Prophecy, the Commandments, etc, thing which are meant to nudge us along our way, not railroad us down a single path. We've got to solve the problem ourselves or we won't learn anything from it. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #824 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.