From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 15 10:33:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00457 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:33:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA00139 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:26:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:26:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199806151526.KAA00139@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #825 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 825 In this digest: Re: IN> Not Wanted on the Voyage IN> Native Americans and others IN> Tethers Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Native Americans and others IN> Howdy Doody IN> Useful web site Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Zoroastrian In Nomine Re: IN> Willy Wonka and Children IN> Re: IN- Howdy Doody Re: IN> Howdy Doody IN> Re: IN- Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Re: IN- Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others Nature of Ethereals (was Re: IN> Native Americans and others) Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Native Americans and others ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:04:02 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Not Wanted on the Voyage On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, James Anderson wrote: > For an interesting take on celestials coming to earth and Yahweh making a > rare earth appearance, try the book "Not Wanted on the Voyage" by Timothy > Findley. If nothing else, one would get a great kick out of all the > characterizations. Great literature otherwise :) And for some interesting thoughts on how God could try to make humanity stand for themselves, read James Morrow's Godhead trilogy. (At least that's the explanation I've chosen.:)) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:04:58 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Native Americans and others >>>I used the term Native American shaman to show a divergence from Western religion and philosophy, and instead i get charged with being un-politically correct via the Native Americans!<<< No, you got charged with being inaccurate. >>>Good thing I mentioned PC, because insisting i call shamans 'spiritual leaders' is like a PC person telling me I should call the blind the vision impaired! it doesn't change the fact that they're blind.<<< Uh, no, that's not correct. "Shaman" has a very specific meaning, which is why I used the more generic (not "politically correct") term "spirital leader." >>>Do we even know what a shaman is, and by this i am speaking to the person who attacked me not to any one else who is uninvolved,<<< Yes, and I did not attack you, I attacked the inaccurate terminology you used. >>>a shaman is one of two types of religious figures, the other being the priest, one is part of a hierarchy, a church, a temple, and is bound by dogma. The other has no hierarchy, no strictures, and generally performs his duties by instinct, as well as honoring traditions of the past,<<< Well, those are interesting personal definitions, but not the proper ones used in knowledgeable discussions. >>>As for the nations, well of course I know that not all Ameri-indians are alike, not all Australian aboriginies are alike, most indiginous peoples who develop in large areas are going to diverge. And there is nothing wrong with refering to them as a whole, I myself am more specifically South Australian but if someone calls me Australian I wont get angry. So whether one is Cherokee, Iriquois, Arawak, Apache or of any other tribe or nation he is still classed in the Native American category as far as census is concerned.<<< Inasmuch as referring to Finns, Irish, Italians, Russians and Greeks as "Europeans" is equally accurate (and broad, and inappropriate if attempting to describe their cultures), sure.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:05:04 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Tethers >>>Any ideas on Tethers in the San Franciso area?<<< Oh yeah. ;) - -David (who's already got dibs on writing the official In Nomine San Francisco, when/if an official In Nomine San Francisco is published) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:58:21 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>a shaman is one of two types of religious figures, the other being the > priest, one is part of a hierarchy, a church, a temple, and is bound by > dogma. The other has no hierarchy, no strictures, and generally performs > his duties by instinct, as well as honoring traditions of the past,<<< > > Well, those are interesting personal definitions, but not the proper ones > used in knowledgeable discussions. I don't remember the details, but wasn't this a re-wording of a definition used in a Real Book? That would make it at least a little more than an "interesting personal definition", a term I think you're using in a quite condescending manner here. > >>>As for the nations, well of course I know that not all Ameri-indians are > alike, not all Australian aboriginies are alike, most indiginous peoples > who develop in large areas are going to diverge. And there is nothing > wrong with refering to them as a whole, I myself am more specifically South > Australian but if someone calls me Australian I wont get angry. So whether > one is Cherokee, Iriquois, Arawak, Apache or of any other tribe or nation > he is still classed in the Native American category as far as census is > concerned.<<< > > Inasmuch as referring to Finns, Irish, Italians, Russians and Greeks as > "Europeans" is equally accurate (and broad, and inappropriate if attempting > to describe their cultures), sure.... But still useful, when used in the appropriate manner. To get this back on topic... I've been thinking of making up a skill that Angels and Demons use to understand human society. It's mentioned in some places that a Celestial that is new to Earth are rather naïve regarding human behavior. This isn't simulated in the rules - not that that's necessary, of course. But if you'd want to simulate it, I think a skill is the only way to do it, as the rules are right now. This gets me on to something I think IN is missing - advantages/disadvantages. Sure, Discords take up a lot of the disadvantage part, but it's not always appropriate to use a Discord, like in the lack of knowledge of human behavior above. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:39:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? > While I can understand why you would postulate a YHWH and > (schizoprenic?) Christian March god, I would disagree because Lawrence > and Dominic have sewn up Christian worship for (for want of a better > term) God Incarnate. By default, Judaism is in there too; and Khalid > and Gabby both have an interest in keeping Islam worship going to God > Incarnate. Judaism is only in the game by default and by no other real connection. In Nomine and Judaism are mutually incompatible from the base level on up. > This means that the Essence streams you envision going to a > bearded guy with sandals isn't going to the Marches at all, it's going > to the Big Guy. But, hey, it's your game... And this brings some very KULT like visions to mind. I can suddenly imagine this master human Creator who brought forth all of the Earth and imprisoned Mankind, making the Celestials the jailors to keep them from ever reaching any sort of enlightenment. The Celestials fight among themselves and manipulate humanity through religion and philosophy and history, keeping them from ever knowing the truth - just how the master human wants it. Everything - the War, Heaven, Hell, celestials, Earth, life, death, is all designed just so that the original Creator can have a steady and continuous source of essence. And he won't tolerate anything less then all of it - and he'll get all of it no matter how many other kids in the same sandbox he has to trample. Besides, nothing is sweeter then essence from those he punishes, he hurts, he ignores, he manipulates - those he doesn't deserve essence from. And the Angels just rake it in. - - Em. Happy Fun Balseraph! *blink* *blink* *blink* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:21:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "Austin G. Loomis" Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Kudos to Em for her comments in v.1 #824, which I'm too lazy to snaffle a copy of. IMC (IHNC, but if I did...), what she describes is pretty close to how Uriel's Crusade worked. It had its strongest effects in places where the Yahwistic religions were already established (Europe and the Middle East were all I'd specified). The Eight Hundred Myriads, Baiame and the other denizens of the Altjeringa, the descendants of Ometecuhtli and Omeciuatl, et cetera and so forth, went into hiding in the Far Marches and came out once Uriel had been summoned back to Deep Heaven. Heaven took no notice of their return until Western Civ and its concomitant Christianity expanded into their territory and came into competition with those gods, and the rest (as Butterfly St. Cyr would say) is nonfiction. Austin "Or social studies" Loomis, MiSTie #84029 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:24:31 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Howdy Doody Hello, this is my first posting to the list (so I hope it got to the right folks!). PLease forgive any errors of etiquette (i'm a mailing list virgin - please be gentle!) Anyhoo, I've only recently come across IN and have just started playing it. Need I say how cromulent it is? I have, along with the rulebook, Night music and the Angelic Guide. I have a couple of questions for you good people, plus a few, tentative ideas of my own for the offering... First off, some of the characters in the gang have attainments that I need a little clarity on: a) Does Cherub of Janus Attunement replace their normal one, or can they choose between the two. I.e. can the Cherub use his regular Resonance until he comes across that 'special someone' and then make use of Janus' gift? Or does he have to wait until he finds that person to use his Resonance at all (I hope I'm making this clear!) b) Does a the Djinn of Belial 'Brand' become visible to others (Angels only I would think - if they make a roll of some sort)? In my game, the Cherub (as just mentioned) is being introduced to the future object of his special attunement - unfortunately she's currently attuned to a Djinn of Fire, Jeb (a rock geetarist of course!) and wears his brand. I think it'd be cool for the angels to notice this, but how - any suggestions? c) in Marc's Summoning section, the summoner gets a nice +3 for 'illegal goods, smuggled in form another country'; why illegal? Makes me think that Marc would then, as the embodiment of honesty, deal with the situation (effectively the summoner has, knowiungkly or not, squealed ion the goods/dealer). This I ask because I have a Malakite of Trade (he's Lovejoy meets Worf!) who never keeps stolen merchandise. d) And is it my imgaination or does thhe us e of Resonance seem a little Hard - just having to roll Perception or less (never mind any Dissonance, mind you that's just tough luck!). or is Celestial Forces added to this? Is it meant to be that tough? e) Finally, as a fan of chaps like Krishnamurti I wondered if there was/is or ever will be an Archangel of Enlightenment (call him Samadhi, perhaps!) Well I'm sure I've got much more I could ask, but not right now! Any way here are a couple of ideas, they're *wide* open to input (like, *please*!): a) one idea I've been toying with is that of a Cheesgame that's also an artefact. It can bind the soul of the loser into one of the pieces perhaps. I wanted to use this for a mixed group with the end featuring a chess match between the Angel(s) and Demon(s). any trapped characters in the pieces get the chance to rescue those poor mortal souls inside by entering a weird Alice/Wonderland/sort-of-Ethereal realm! Oh man! I also thought that the set could be in use by a joint Asmodues/Dominic duo out to judge certain mortal souls - harshly - by having them play for their souls! b) one idea for a Soldier of God, having read Night Music (loved the Dog idea!), was for a 'Soldier' who served his role as some a sort of Reliquary. His name is Frank Grimes (grimey to his mates! And yes you're right!) - he's the world's most unlucky man, having to slog his guts out just to get by! Why? Very simply because his misfortune is the result of his 'luck' (re: Essence) being spent by his Angelic allies (no one really understands the situation - 'cept perhaps Yves) who always feel bolstered by his presence even if this costs him his life! Of course the moral implications are somewhat grey, but as long as the Angels don't abuse their use of Frank (by drawing too much Essence - he somehow has more than usual so that's okay) it's okay. Well sorry about the length, but you know! Having downloaded some of the recent digests (and totally raided the INC), I was pleased to see that there're other folks from the UK stopping by. I live near Bristol, so drop me a line if you live sorta near! I'd love to know how the game translates to an English setting as I use IN Austin for now. Thanking you all. Marnie, Angel of hoping to get a little ol' Website up soon! (martyarnie@hotmail.com - for those who wanna know!) "there are no Angels left in America anymore..." (David Byrne) - kinda wish that were Demons instead! PS: Afterburner, I read your post - looks like we have something in common. I'd love to know how you're finding the game. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:26:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Useful web site I just thought I should probably share this website... http://www.benedict.com The copyright website. All you need to know about the basic fundamentals of copyright law on the web. I know there was some talk about it on the List some time ago, and this should just help to fill in some cracks. - - Em Current Quote: Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son." Abe said, "Man you must be puttin me on." God said, "No", Abe said "What?" God said, "You can do what you wanna but the next time you see me comin' you better run." Well Abe said, "Where d'you want this killin done?" God said, "Out on Highway 61." - Bob Dylan, "Highway 61" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:37:08 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > While I can understand why you would postulate a YHWH and > > (schizoprenic?) Christian March god, I would disagree because Lawrence > > and Dominic have sewn up Christian worship for (for want of a better > > term) God Incarnate. By default, Judaism is in there too; and Khalid > > and Gabby both have an interest in keeping Islam worship going to God > > Incarnate. > > Judaism is only in the game by default and by no other real connection. > In Nomine and Judaism are mutually incompatible from the base level on up. > > > This means that the Essence streams you envision going to a > > bearded guy with sandals isn't going to the Marches at all, it's going > > to the Big Guy. But, hey, it's your game... > > And this brings some very KULT like visions to mind. I can suddenly > imagine this master human Creator who brought forth all of the Earth and > imprisoned Mankind, making the Celestials the jailors to keep them from > ever reaching any sort of enlightenment. The Celestials fight among > themselves and manipulate humanity through religion and philosophy and > history, keeping them from ever knowing the truth - just how the master > human wants it. Everything - the War, Heaven, Hell, celestials, Earth, > life, death, is all designed just so that the original Creator can have a > steady and continuous source of essence. And he won't tolerate anything > less then all of it - and he'll get all of it no matter how many other > kids in the same sandbox he has to trample. It would be even more fun if the Celestials didn't know it was all fake... ;) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:52:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Zoroastrian In Nomine Simon Hailes wrote: > but after being enslaved by the Perisans they [the Jews] > were introduced to Zoroastrainism I doubt that many Jews would describe themselves as enslaved by the *Persians*. It was the Babylonians who took the Jews off into captivity. When Babylon was conquered by Cyrus, he let the Jews return to their homeland and re-build the Temple. The Hebrew scriptures refer to Cyrus in pretty messianic terms as a liberator. In fact, this would only make the religion of the Persians look all the more attractive to the Jews, and hence easier to borrow from. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:03:55 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Willy Wonka and Children >Armand wrote, regarding the tendency in our culture to "sugar-coat" reality >for children: > >>If I was the type to run the Angels as the antagonists, then I would set >>this up as the work of a servitor of David. This is his way of insuring >>that children will band together with something (inadvertently missing out >>on the idea that this makes it easier for Demonic influence to influence >>the growing mortal) I would have the PC's be a group of Celestials that >>see the need to stop this plot, because more willful humans are more >>satisfying or something. > >I like this idea, but would quibble with your choice of David as the >antagonist. > >Christopher or Novalis, maybe (yes, the nicey-niceys as villains). > >But David, in addition to his communitarian aspect, has the whole "that >which does not kill me makes me stronger" thing going. He would want >children to experience life in all its nastiness, and grow stronger >thereby. IMHO, at least. But David is also strength in numbers. Looking at it from the perspetive of "What do I get out of this" arrangements; David doesn't get a thing from that kid that hangs out by himself on the schoolyard because he doesn't share the same interests as the other children. Now, the group of girls that go over and mock that boy, they are David's. My thinking is that David has to create a need for grouping. Part of him does go for the already strong, but he has another side IMC. Any group that shows strength, whether or not they are strong individually, aids his word. So, if there are a group of this generation of children that band together because their wills are not enough on their own, then my conspiracy theory finger points at David. >Actually, Christopher's probably a bad candidate, too. For all the value >he places on the innocence of childhood, he also comes out against lying or >talking down to children. Sugar-coating reality probably falls under those >strictures. > >Soft-hearted Novalis? Maybe. Zadkiel (Arch of *Protection*) might be an >even better candidate. > >Stacy Stroud I always think that Novalis is seen as too soft. Keep in mind, roses have thorns. Not all berries are edible. I tend to think that coddling the masses is not her goal in life. Maybe she might take interest in a few children as pets, but that's the extent. I don't know a thing about Zadkiel. Just going from the brief dialogue you wrote, I would like to think that he would go for a wider band of protection. Instead of protecting them from offensive movie images, I would tend to think that he would focus more on physical violence/abuse. Then, he could take care of mental abuse. Finally, when all his work is done, he can focus on movies or whatever else. Maybe he just got a lucky stroke with a servitor in the movie industry. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:01:38 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Howdy Doody >From: "Martin Arnold" : >Hello, this is my first posting to the list (so I hope it got to the >right folks!). Hiya! (Quiet afternoon here because most other people are off watching the world cup ;) ). Can't answer all of these offhand but here are some... >a) Does Cherub of Janus Attunement replace their normal one, or can >they choose between the two. I think it replaces the normal one. Bear in mind they are on the move a lot so it would be horribly difficult to have to look after a ton of other people whilst you were doing that. One is just about doable, as long as you bring them with you. I think of it as being like the effect Gandalf had on the hobbits in 'The Hobbit' -- the cherub could be looking out for that someone who really _needs_ some excitement in their life, even if the mortal doesn't realise it yet and would say no if they were actually asked. Being attuned to by a wind cherub probably tends to make people more likely to drop everything and go! >b) Does a the Djinn of Belial 'Brand' become visible to others (Angels >only I would think - if they make a roll of some sort)? I think celestials can make a perception roll to realise what it is, if the brand is visible. (I figure it to be like a tattoo) >c) in Marc's Summoning section, the summoner gets a nice +3 for >'illegal goods, smuggled in form another country'; why illegal? Putting the 'free' into Free Trade ;) It doesn't mean the goods should have been stolen. They only need to have been smuggled through customs, or got into the country without having had a tariff paid on them. Maybe Marc isn't into protectionist trade barriers... >d) And is it my imgaination or does the use of Resonance seem a >little Hard - just having to roll Perception or less If you think it is hard for angels, pity the poor impudites! It's not all that bad, depending on how much perception people start with, but yeah, if a character is supposed to be good with its resonance they will want to start with a decent number of celestial forces. They can also spend essence to help if it is an important roll. (Each point of essence you spend will bring the target value for the roll down by 1) jo ps. I loved the chess game idea. Alice & chess is a match made in .. heaven :) pps. The soldier is less likely though. Mainly because angels can't take essence from anyone. They have to be given it, of the soldier's own free will. (Impudites can drain essence, and that hapless soldier sounds more as though he may have got in with a gang of those). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:14:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Seiger Subject: Re: IN> Howdy Doody On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Martin Arnold wrote: > a) one idea I've been toying with is that of a Cheesgame that's also an > artefact. It can bind the soul of the loser into one of the pieces > perhaps. I wanted to use this for a mixed group with the end featuring a > chess match between the Angel(s) and Demon(s). any trapped characters in > the pieces get the chance to rescue those poor mortal souls inside by > entering a weird Alice/Wonderland/sort-of-Ethereal realm! Oh man! I also > thought that the set could be in use by a joint Asmodues/Dominic duo out > to judge certain mortal souls - harshly - by having them play for their > souls! > Ok, I haven't posted much to this list in the past, and I've been off and on for a while, but I had to comment on this. If you're interested in this, it sounds like a great tie in to a book I read a few years ago. Katherine Nevil's (I konw I spelled that wrong) _The Eight_. It's all about the struggle for a great chess set that held mystical powers and was designed for King Charlemaign of France. It's a great book and I highly reccomend it. It's also relatively obscure I think, as it's the only book I've found that Nevil's written. All of a sudden I have many ideas for the game I'm supposed to be starting for next semester..... If anyone else has read this, and has ideas, please let me know. - -Tim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:21:34 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Native Americans and others >From: Anders Gabrielsson >To get this back on topic... > >I've been thinking of making up a skill that Angels and Demons use to >understand human society. It's mentioned in some places that a Celestial >that is new to Earth are rather na=EFve regarding human behavior. This is= >n't >simulated in the rules - not that that's necessary, of course. But if >you'd want to simulate it, I think a skill is the only way to do it, as >the rules are right now. I'm going to use a scary word. Roleplaying. Anything else can be covered by Area Knowledge. > >This gets me on to something I think IN is missing - >advantages/disadvantages. Sure, Discords take up a lot of the disadvantag= >e >part, but it's not always appropriate to use a Discord, like in the lack >of knowledge of human behavior above. That's an interesting notion. What do you have in mind? Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 10:22 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > In my understanding of the IN-verse, an >ethereal god isn't actually created by its worshippers. I don't think this is precisely true -- some of the ethereal gods are existing ethereal spirits who adapted themselves to play the role the humans were worshipping (so as to reap the Essence), but I believe they were also ultimately created by human thought. Some of them have moved from position to position over time, rather than dying off as their worship declined... *iff* they were adaptable enough to throw off their current role. So the South American ethereals *should* exist in some form. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 10:34 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others >Someone suggested that NONE of the religions are completely right. This >raises a few issues. For example, why is it that none of the religions >have it completely right? Wouldn't be in Heaven's >best interest to teach humanity the truth religion practiced in Heaven and >if so, why are haven't angels taken an effort to teach us the true faith? Not necessarily. One could view Christianity as such an attempt, one that was wrenched off track by human perversity and/or demonic influence. At that point, it was probably given up as a bad job... except maybe by Dominic and Laurance. From the celestial point of view, religion is more of a tool. Remember that in IN, the goal of angels is for the Symphony (and therefore individual humans) to reach its Destiny. Whatever works toward that end is useful to them -- it doesn't *have* to be correct. I view the celestial-inspired religions as attempts to provide humans with moral and ethical guidance. (Other religions evolved soley from human actions, but often run on parallel tracks as ethical/moral guidance.) In all of this, the ultimate Truth is optional. It matters more whether humans accept the basic morality than whether they believe the truth. Also, it is forbidden on both sides to tell the full truth -- it would be pretty easy to convince humans if angels could operate openly. But that would be violating their free will. Or something like that.... >Maybe almost all (we will exclude Branch Davidians and Nazi Wotanics and >many other such faiths) of the religions are completely right. Makes a >lot more sense to me. Being "right" is unimportant for In Nomine religions. From an angelic point of view, a religion is "good" if its followers are encouraged toward their destinies, and "bad" if it encourages people toward their fates. Most demons don't care one way or the other, of course, unless there's something in it for *them*.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 10:42 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others >I'll still note that we haven't yet had (and probably never will) any >examples of DPs sponsoring religions. I wouldn't necessarily count on that -- but it's a pretty sure bet that if it happens, it won't actually be any *extant* religion..... I could see canon including demonically-inspired cults of one sort or another. But for legal (and other) reasons, real ones couldn't be used, at least not modern ones. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:43:25 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others "Emily K. Dresner" wrote: > >Jo wrote: > >> What he said. Also if you don't mind being politically incorrect they might >> have just been worshipping some enterprising demons, or just bits of rock >> with names they had made up. In my understanding of the IN-verse, an >> ethereal god isn't actually created by its worshippers. They either exist >> or they don't, so you could have people worshipping something from a story >> that just doesn't exist... (except maybe in a few dreamscapes) > > >I dislike this explaination. Other then it's very historically incorrect, >it's slanderous to a civilization which rivalled Europe in several >technological advances and population, and gives the shaft to a very >_large_ body of people who live in modern day Central America - usually >given the shaft because, face it, poor people are boring and no one cares >about several million disenfranchised Mexican Indians. I suspect it's >another In Nomine Copout (tm) - Patent Pending, soon to have a whole line >of merchandise, check back in a gaming store near you. I already have my >t-shirt. Well, I am in agreement with you that whoever had Uriel wiping out the Mayan gods had not done his or her research, but they managed to ignore Hinduism completely, and there seems to a version of pop Buddhism floating through canon, so it's really about par for the course. But I must confess that I really don't understand why it's derogatory or slanderous to assert that there were people who believed things that weren't true. It may be a difference in real-life POV; IRL I am as materialist and non- spiritual a person as they come, so I kind of necessarily believe that vast numbers of people have believed false things throughout history. So it doesn't seem that big a stretch to me to say that in game people have also believed false ideas. As the saying goes, the difference between the atheist and the monotheist is that the atheist believes in one fewer god. I don't really like the belief-makes-reality thing. It smacks of too much Gaiman poisoning on the part of Derek and company, and it can get really messy to resolve in a consistent fashion -- is the Pan of the neopagan revivalists the same presence that haunted the hills of Greece? It's hard to honestly say yes (I know one neopagan who claims that gods and divine possession are altered states of consciousness induced by worship) but it's kind of gross to have dozens of Pans wandering around the Marches. For my own game, I punted the ethereals altogether. What passes for "ethereal gods" IMC are outcast angels and renegade demons, souls of the damned escaped from hell, and the exiles (who are the angels who were kicked out of Heaven for remaining neutral in the original War). Most religions are just false, and a few are out-and-out demonically inspired. The Abrahamic ones are Right solely to the extent that those in the know (the angels) explained the situation to the humans. Uriel launched her Crusade when a sufficiently large number of these had set up shop on Earth as gods, and was called to high Heaven when she was done. It is entirely possible this was a reward for faithful service -- the presence of God is what distinguishes Heaven from Hell, and the fuller the beatific vision the higher the heaven. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:49:18 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Native Americans and others On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: > >From: Anders Gabrielsson > > >To get this back on topic... > > > >I've been thinking of making up a skill that Angels and Demons use to > >understand human society. It's mentioned in some places that a > Celestial > >that is new to Earth are rather na=EFve regarding human behavior. This > is= > >n't > >simulated in the rules - not that that's necessary, of course. But if > >you'd want to simulate it, I think a skill is the only way to do it, as > >the rules are right now. > > I'm going to use a scary word. Roleplaying. Anything else can be > covered by Area Knowledge. That's why I said it didn't have to be simulated by the rules. ;) Seriously, I'm just looking for some way of quantifying a characters familiarity with humanity. Does the Seraph understand the concept of "fast food"? Can the Cherub use a parking meter? Could the Djinn order a pizza if it could be bothered to? This will of course be affected by the character's Choir/Band and Superior - - a Balseraph of Nybbas will probably have a rather good grasp of trashy talk shows, while a Seraph of... well, -any- Seraph would be appalled by the very thought. > >This gets me on to something I think IN is missing - > >advantages/disadvantages. Sure, Discords take up a lot of the > disadvantag= > >e > >part, but it's not always appropriate to use a Discord, like in the > lack > >of knowledge of human behavior above. > > That's an interesting notion. What do you have in mind? For Ads/Disads in general, just a few of 'em that would cost or give points to add to skill and such. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:52:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > So the South American ethereals *should* exist in some form. I'm feeling the sucking well of ignorance on the topic of modern day Central America. Luckily, I've run into a few profs who held me down and rubbed knowledge into my armpits until a desirable amount of knowledge, or at least enough to get a decent score on an exam, had entered my bloodstream. A painful experience, and one involving entirely too much corn, but that's just how these things work. Contrary to popular opinion, a very large population of Native Indians live in the Yucatan peninsula. There have been several civil wars break out in the area in the time period between 1900-1930, as the Natives have wanted to move away from Mexico and reinstate their own state - bloody civil wars that you don't hear about in public school because the United States basically conquored and annexed a large chunk of Mexico 100 years ago and named it Texas. It's unpopular to hear what has gone on - politically, economically, historically - in the US. There are about 2 million Mayan Indians living in the Yucatan. Most striking is that they maintain many of their original religious practices, including homage to the 166 gods of the Mayan religious life. Oddly, because of the invaders from Europe, their loss of major religious figures, their state and their culture, they have melded their religious practices with those of Christianity, notably Catholicism. Weird, eh? It's much like Prohibition - just because someone says that it's not there doesn't mean they aren't smuggling it over the border. In a giant In Nomine related segue, I would rule that the Gods are either insane or dead. They've been messed over by the transition, by the death of their people at the hands of white man and disease, and at the melding with a wholy unfriendly religion. There is no way that any of those Gods, not even say Chac Xib Chac, could survive what happened when their population was completely depleted by small pox. Oddly enough, this goes for Native North American Indians. Culture destroyed, land taken away, religious leaders murdered, bloody battles of land acquisition, massacres - but some of the religious practices still carry on through adversity. That's one thing you have to give the old practices - tenacity. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 10:56 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Nature of Ethereals (was Re: IN> Native Americans and others) [Neel:] >I don't really like the belief-makes-reality thing. It smacks of too >much Gaiman poisoning on the part of Derek and company, and it can >get really messy to resolve in a consistent fashion -- is the Pan >of the neopagan revivalists the same presence that haunted the hills >of Greece? It's not so messy, really.... If Pan survived the Crusade, then they are probably the same being; ethereal spirits are adaptable. If he did not (and I don't recall offhand if canon has it one way or the other), then there are several possibilities: - there *is* no Pan now -- the neopagans haven't been around long enough to create one yet. - the neopagans keep creating a new Pan, but the older, more powerful ethereals keep eating him for the Essence he's got. - a new Pan was created, and now exists. My general view on the ethereals (which I think it close to canon), is that they are adapatable creatures who can play any role that is close to their current nature. I.e., they have a certain "fuzziness" that they can exploit. They can also usurp other ethereals places, and take on their power and/or aspects. The ethereals are initially created by human belief, but unlike Worded celestials, their natures can change and evolve. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:06:02 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > That's one thing you have to give the old practices - tenacity. I wonder if David tends to favour tribal religions (for partly this reason) enough to send his angels to help the communities stick together once their dodgy ethereal links have been wiped out. (Same argument applies here as to whether he is the patron of Judaism: if he does, then he doesn't seem to be exerting himself all that hard on their behalf...) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:09:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > Well, I am in agreement with you that whoever had Uriel wiping out the > Mayan gods had not done his or her research, but they managed to ignore > Hinduism completely, and there seems to a version of pop Buddhism floating > through canon, so it's really about par for the course. But I must confess > that I really don't understand why it's derogatory or slanderous to assert > that there were people who believed things that weren't true. Oh, well, I'm just a major stickler for detail on the subject of history (esp. religious) and language, the deader the better. I'm of the firm belief that if you don't know it, then avoid it like the plague, or go read some books - and I prefer the later over the former, because at least someone gets something out of the endevour, and might learn something new along the way. I find that, in game, having large bodies of characters believe things that aren't true is handy. On the other hand, in print, this really bothers me. There's no real excuse, you know? There has to be a point where there is some real information and basis floating around. Someone has to learn a little history somewhere along the way, because the game is a little lacking. I think my term is "A little transparent in the plot department." As for the Uriel Crusade, in my game, nothing more exciting happened then a Malakite who flipped a cog and was dealt with in a very swift and exacting manner by my man Michael. No huge Crusade, no mass deaths, and Uriel never made it out of Western Europe for a large part. At that point, history just flows like it says - so it is written, so it is done. Then again, I'm notorious for junking enormous amounts of IN canon history. My players know that any book that came out after THE MARCHES (except for certain 40 slices of cheeeeeeeese) isn't in play. - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #825 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.