From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 16 19:52:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06244 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:52:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA06812 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:48:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:48:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199806170048.TAA06812@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #828 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 828 In this digest: Re: IN> questions from a would-be player Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? IN> Pagan" Christianity? IN> Jews and others Re: IN> Jews and others IN> Plot Idea: The Town That Cannon Forgot. Re: IN> Judaism and the Fall (was Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity?) Re: Judaism and the Fall (was Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity?) Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Ethereal Gods (Re: Native Americans and others) Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> Plot Seed (pt I) Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Judaism and the Fall (was Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity?) IN> Servitors of Eli IN> Re: IN- Servitors of Eli Re: IN> questions from a would-be player IN> Re: IN- Servitors of Eli ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 06:00:40 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> questions from a would-be player At 13:16 15/06/98 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings, > Hiya! >(1)First of all, what is it that you, as players (especially game >masters), like about In Nomine? What puts it above other games? I love it for the satire actually, but I think I may be in a small minority ;) After playing around in gothic-type games, its been a lot of fun for us to try a setting in which good really is Good (except of course when it gets a bit overenthusiastic), evil really is Evil (except when it is just a bit lazy and misunderstood) and the grand sweep of heaven vs hell can be equally a huge and mythic conflict, and a small and personal one, depending on taste. The book itself is written in quite a light-hearted way, so taking the whole thing deathly seriously is very much optional for players and GMs (although I imagine most PCs find it a serious matter). It's a fun game. I find that quite relaxing after WW angst, myself. (Although its easy enough to do angst, doom and gloom if you like that sort of thing). >Secondly, is there a range of backgrounds to work with besides Earth in >the present? Does the game present oppertunities for celestial and >demonic beings to deal with human at other times as well? It is easy to set games in other historical periods, although you'll have to do the research yourself. The War has been going on ever since the Fall. > What do most >games end up revolving around? Is it the constant effort by both side >to sway humanity or other things as well? It is often this, or having to stop the other side from implementing its latest 'cunning plan', or trying to deal with the fact that life on earth can be a bit incomprehensible to celestials. There is also scope for a fair bit of politics amongst the archangels/ demon princes. Does In Nomine seem to be the >kind of game that "takes itself seriously" or are there elements of >satire and tounge-in-cheek that I should be aware of? It doesn't take itself that seriously, but it is easy enough to edit out the satirical bits (if you can spot them) to suit your taste. > I enjoy writing, and I see In Nomine as >an interesting oppertunity to express a few of my own ideas about >religion and to finally make use of the Biblical trivia I learned in >four years of Christian high school. Is there anyone around here with a >similar story to my own? Oh yeah! It is a BRILLIANT way to make use of biblical trivia. (I spent 3 years drowsing through lessons in classical hebrew when I was a kid and this is the first ever time it has ever been handy :) ). jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 06:09:20 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? At 16:45 15/06/98 -0500, you wrote: >The equivalent discords between Christianity and IN include: < snip> I'd have thought a major one is that there is no notion of original sin or people needing to be redeemed through Christ before being allowed into heaven? jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:32:13 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Pagan" Christianity? >>>I think its true that it is only in the game by default though. Judaism isn't actually mentioned in any of the IN books I have read, unless you include the dodgy bit in the APG about why the malakim didn't kill Hitler (and I prefer my explanation for that by several zillion miles).<<< So do I. As I've said before, I didn't write that dodgy bit. - -David (and boy was I surprised when I saw it in the final product) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:32:08 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jews and others >>>I don't know about the writers of In Nomine, but my opinion is that the Bible wins over conjecture every time. I mean, theoretically, it is the authoritative source.<<< The Bible is _an_ authoritative source. That doesn't mean In Nomine can't and won't deliberately contradict the Bible. That said, I also see David as the most likely patron of the Jews. The fact that he doesn't seem to have interceded much on their behalf lately, as Jo pointed out, might simply be an indication of how highly he regards them....they suffer all the persecution that's been handed out to them for centuries, and all by themselves, on the strength of their faith and their common ties, persist and endure. - -David (and boy does David like Israel....but then, so do Dominic, Janus, Michael, Yves, Baal, Belial, Kronos, Malphas, Nybbas and Valefor...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 06:41:58 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Jews and others At 01:32 16/06/98 -0400, you wrote: >>>>I don't know about the writers of In Nomine, but my opinion is that the >Bible wins over conjecture every time. I mean, theoretically, it >is the authoritative source.<<< > > >The Bible is _an_ authoritative source. That doesn't mean In Nomine can't >and won't deliberately contradict the Bible. > Also, Michael in the Book of Daniel wasn't actually an incarnation of the principle of War. Given than in IN terms, what the GM knows about the 'real' celestial setup supercedes the bible I don't think it needs to be authoritative unless you want it to be. (After all, in the biblical writings, Raphael was the angel of healing. Once you've over-ruled one biblical angel, you might as well go for a full house). Having said all that, and although I think I am convinced by David's argument, if I was running any Jewish-IN plots, it would be Michael as the patron angel. Because I am a hypocrite and I like to keep with the biblical tidbits I learned when I was young also -- it is just more familiar. jo >-David (and boy does David like Israel....but then, so do Dominic, Janus, >Michael, Yves, Baal, Belial, Kronos, Malphas, Nybbas and Valefor...) You missed out Mammon and Marc ;) "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:12:18 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Plot Idea: The Town That Cannon Forgot. Dear List this is only a little more than half baked, but it wasn't going to get much better sitting around with me, thought someone might be interested. Regards, Peter ***** The PCs are travelling somewhere when they come across a fellow Angel in a small town near to the main campaign setting. If they are in trouble he can give them a guiding hand or maybe they can come to his aid. If they have to travel onwards they will later get a call for assistance. If they aren’t on any set timetable you can have fun with them straight away. The Angel, Phanuel, will explain that he has been in this small town for a few months. Initially he didn’t have too much trouble, but recently there has been an explosion in Demonic activity. Phanuel really needs the PCs help. Once you’ve got the PCs involved you can go to town. Incidents break out on a daily basis at the local school, library, youth sports events, under age discos, the shopping mall and video game parlour and other places young people hang out. Hit them with every non-canon thing you’ve ever wanted to try. Demons that can possess animals or possess multiple people at once. Earthly use or spoken and written Angelic and Demonic tongues (which will be gibberish to the PCs). Demons unable to enter consecrated ground and repelled by holy items. A little bit of Ghostbusters meets John Constantine meets Tales from the Crypt meets The Night Stalker wouldn’t be out of line. Ok, so what’s going on here. A few months ago a local youth found an artifact that was a link to a powerful Ethereal Guardian Spirit. The Guardian had been dormant, but as chance would have it the youth was a powerful Dreamer and a wanna-be occultist and woke the Guardian in the belief it was an Angel. Disorientated after it’s long sleep the Guardian took the line of least resistance and adopted the Role the youth had decided on. Initially the youth didn’t do much with his new ally, but his seeming success gave him a new confidence and proof that his knowledge of Angels and Demons was correct, after all here was a real Angel who in general terms confirmed what the youth had already learnt from his studies. As it woke further to it’s situation the Guardian found that it could gain greater influence in the Corporeal plane if it acted as the youth believed it would. Giving in more and more to the youth’s fantasies about Celestial beings the Guardian was unprepared when the youth first suspected and then insisted on Demonic infiltration of his small town. The Guardian’s Ethereal form is a multi headed creature (whatever is appropriate for the local native culture) and he can manifest multiple avatars. If you don’t like the multiple avatars thing, give Phanuel a number of assistant Guardian Spirits. Generally these are only used to protect it’s tribe, but the developing relationship with the Dreamer youth has changed that. Caught too deeply in playing to the youth’s fantasies the Guardian was forced to play both sides, as the Guardian Angel and the infiltrating Demons. I guess you could string this out for a couple of sessions, presenting a new “infiltration” each session or you could clean it up fairly quickly. It will depend a little on how fast the Players catch on that something is not as it seems. To an extent they do have Phanuel on their side. He is not happy about the mess he has found himself in, it’s his job to guard people against harmful spirits, not to participate in this sort of vaudeville shenanigans. Seraphim will cause Phanuel some problems as he will have to be careful about what he says around them. He can’t admit the truth, because of the hold the youth has over him, but knows enough not to lie directly. Phanuel knows a bit about Heaven and Hell, but has been dormant since about 500AD, so his info is a bit old, ie he won’t know about Lawrence or Uriel’s Crusade or anything else you feel has happened since that time. For the most part he has been operating on the information the youth has asked for conformation about, although he has “corrected” those things that he didn’t think he could pull off. When the PCs get to the bottom of everything they will still have to do something about the youth and Phanuel, both are too powerful to be just allowed to wander around. Both are basically well intentioned, although the youth is egotistical enough to be headed firmly to his Fate if not taken in hand. Phanuel, not his real name, is as Ethereal Spirits go, not a bad chap, but has no great love of Heaven. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:52:46 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Judaism and the Fall (was Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity?) Andrew Frades wrote: > >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> I wonder... I wonder how much of >> Judaism, in the IN universe, was crafted *before* the Fall? How much >> before demons started showing up in the Marches and on Earth? Sadly, this is inconsistent with published canon. The death of Oannes was identified with the Theran explosion, which happened in 1650 BCE. This predates the birth of Judaism by at least a few centuries. It's a lovely theory, though. :) > If one postulates that Yves had something to do with the formation of >Judaism then one must wonder if he knew of Lucifer's Fate. The Lightbringer's >purpose in Heaven before the fall was (sorry) to shed light on things, to look >at them from a different angle. (sorry again) In other words, to play Devil's >Advocate. Traditionally, it is Michael who is the primary messenger between the Jews and God. Michael is supposed to have delivered the Decalogue to Moses, been one of the three angels that accompanied God to speak with Abraham, and even to incarnate as the Messiah in certain strands of Jewish eschatology (see Daniel for the origins of this theory). I've actually borrowed this for my game, as one of the sources of the friction between Dominic and Michael. Dominic thinks the messiah has alreay come, and that it is dangerous pride for Michael to believe that he will have to incarnate. Michael on the other hand figures that God will let him know if He has changed His mind, and that to plan not to incarnate is to sinfully defy the will of God. Random legend: Satan and Michael fought a battle over the body of Moses, because Moses wanted to set it up as an idol and tempt the Jews into the sin of hero-worship. > What makes me wonder is that there are times that Lucifer does not seem to >be on the up and up in Jewish Scripture. It just makes me wonder if Yves was >letting humans know his prophesy before he let the others in Heaven in on it. >Or possibly if even Yves didn't know what the whole story with the Lightbringer >was, how did the humans? Leaves a bit to the wondering mind. There are plenty of cases where he seems, well, not kosher. Think of him as the tough DA out to prove man's sinfulness in God's court, and you have Satan at his best. At his worst, well, he's a pretty darn nasty guy restrained only by divine power. But even Christianity and Islam are in agreement that even the devil is totally subject to the will of God, so this isn't that far off. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:02:18 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: Re: Judaism and the Fall (was Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity?) > > If one postulates that Yves had something to do with the formation of > Judaism then one must wonder if he knew of Lucifer's Fate. The Lightbringer's > purpose in Heaven before the fall was (sorry) to shed light on things, to look > at them from a different angle. (sorry again) In other words, to play Devil's > Advocate. that's an interesting point...and almost heresy. Was lucifer created to fall? were all beings created with a choice or was the choice 'slanted' to one direction or the other so as to 'set the stage' so to speak.... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:25:16 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? "Robb Kidd" wrote: > >> ... Let's see, God, Satan, Garden, Angels, dead >> returning on occasion, Apocolypse, good people doing bad things, bad >> people doing worse things. Nope, it's all there. > > Quite right. I raised the idea because the presentation of God, Satan and >Company in game canon differs quite dramatically to actual Church canon. >Being such an annoying little disciple of Pratchett and loving _Small Gods_ >terribly, I wondered if the divergence between Church canon and game canon >would create off-shoot YHWHs and Gods into the Marches. This is exactly the problem I have with the whole idea. I can't see any really compelling reason this wouldn't happen, and this would do an amazing amount of damage to the flavor of the game I am trying to run. (The line in _Small Gods_ "Thou shalt not subject thy god to market forces" about sums up why it's such a great book, and why it just doesn't fit my game.) The Abrahamic religions tend to be intensely scholarly, with a near obsessive interest in making sharp distinctions between true and false, and regardless of whether this is good or bad, it does have a very distinct flavor. Allowing "everything is true" as a possibility does enough violence to the flavor that the perps ought to be tossed in a pit to be torn apart by a pack of wild Jesuits and rabbis. :) > My impression of Dominic's and Laurence's support of Christianity is to >gather humanity under one banner of faith, one set of rules to hash out all >that Heretical Grey Area and Wooly Thinking. I might have missed it, but I >don't recall it being mentioned that the two Archangels were supporting >Christianity because it was True. That wouldn't work for Dominic -- he's a seraph, who can't but speak the truth. And Laurence seems just much too honorable to try and trick people into Heaven. I reckon that both Dominic and Laurence honestly believe that God the Lord died on the cross to atone for all of mankind's sins, that God is one who is three, and all that good stuff. They probably see Christianity as the ultimate means for glorifying and honoring God and saving the souls of mankind. The specific of the doctrine they believe is likely quite different from most Earthly churches, but they have a lot more direct evidence. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:22:18 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Gods (Re: Native Americans and others) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >At 10:43 AM -0400 6/15/98, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >> >>For my own game, I punted the ethereals altogether. What passes for >>"ethereal gods" IMC are outcast angels and renegade demons, souls of >>the damned escaped from hell, and the exiles (who are the angels who >>were kicked out of Heaven for remaining neutral in the original War). > >From what I managed to decipher from a French web-page about the >original, what we call ethereal gods may well have been what our >IN calls the Nephallim. (Or Nephalim. WHATEVER.) > >And Uriel waged war upon them for the obvious reasons... That's what the Flood was for IMC. Angelic vessels and human beings are interfertile (no need for that Song), and the Nephilim :) were their progeny. Unfortunately, most of the Nephilim came out bad, and corrupted mankind badly enough that God felt it necessary to reboot. It is believed that all the Nephilim died in the Flood. Since then, Dominic has made a law that the angels of the Host shall not have romantic relations with human beings. It is a law rather than a divine commandment, but is nonetheless quite strictly enforced, because the archangels think it's a bad idea to play games with the existence of humanity at stake. Dominic suspects that Eli no longer enforces this law with his servitors, and is amazingly not happy with the idea. Basically, I decided that I wanted to clarify one of the reasons Dominic is after Eli, and to offer a potential avenue for angst on the part of the PCs. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:25:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Jo Hart wrote: > > At 16:45 15/06/98 -0500, you wrote: > >The equivalent discords between Christianity and IN include: > > < snip> > > I'd have thought a major one is that there is no notion of original > sin or people needing to be redeemed through Christ before being > allowed into heaven? Well, yes, but I was being conservative. IN doesn't *deny* those things, or at least not loudly enough for me to notice; it just doesn't mention them. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:53:06 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Kevin Walsh wrote: > (I'm prepared to accept that bread is worth more than wheat to humans on > the grounds that humans tend to prefer eating bread to raw wheat.) > The question is, where did you get the wheat? And where did you get the > tools to make the bread out of the wheat? If you made those tools, where > did you get the tools to make those tools? Did you discover how to make > bread all by yourself, or did someone teach you? Unless you generated all > of the knowledge and equipment necessary to make bread yourself, trade or > theft was involved at some stage. All of this, while interesting, is irrelevant. Wealth was created through transforming one thing to another. Knowledge, in and of itself, does not generate wealth... only the application of it does (sometimes even knowledge isn't necessary... Bees make honey which humans value more than the pollen... no theft or trade involved!) > What are the inputs to a bomb? Refined > > metal, explosives, fuel to transport it, and labor > > to create it. What are the outputs of use? Scattered > > bits of metal and the _removal_ of a thing of > > value (if you hit your target!) > > But that bomb would never have been made in the first place without war. > And the creation of that bomb spread wealth throughout the economy which > encouraged the creation of other wealth. The US was vastly richer after > the 1st and 2nd World Wars than before them. (Europe was vastly poorer, of > course.) Was the US richer? Our industrial base was revitalized at the cost of a massive deficit. More women had entered the workforce, widening the amount of human capital available. War didn't make the US any wealthier... it just forced the nation to allocate its resources differently (and, it might be argued, more efficiently). There are many, many other examples where the wealth of nations has been drained by war without the convenience of a late 20th century technological boom to mask the costs. Post WWII, the wealth of the world was much reduced overall and for every country that participated in any meaningful way. Any benefits were from massive retooling and a much larger workforce. I think we've gone waaaaaay off topic! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:09:44 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Plot Seed (pt I) Voyages : the Land of Lost Content - -- ] Ship's Log of the Exploratory Vessel 'Jam Tomorrow', Celestial [ ] Stardate XX-YY-ZZZZ: Soon after the dawn essence, the first officer [ ] reported reading a strange fluctuation in the disturbance patterns [ ] in sector G63U, an unmapped corridor in the rare ephemera section. [ Summary: A group of relievers are recruited to do a tour of exploration and cartography in Yves' library. But it seems that they are being silently shadowed, and somewhere in the distance float the strains of a haunting song that no-one can quite put a name to... Background: Principalities and Cathedrals are theoretically infinite in size, or at least those which belong to active superiors seem to have sections which are continually changing and growing. New tethers appear and old ones splutter and die out. The Word gains a new aspect or loses an old one. The superior remembers something it had forgotten for millenia. As an aspect of the superior and its word, the celestial realm reflects these changes. Mapping the realms is a constant job, comparable with painting the Forth Bridge. As soon as the map seems to be complete, cartographers must be sent back to the 'known' sections to check whether the maps are still accurate. Any maps produced are not so much for the benefit of the superior (who can be assumed to know his own realm like the back of his hand) as for other local celestials. Although work like this could be given to fully fledged celestials who are not currently assigned to earth work, it is more likely that the initial exploration will be done by relievers (or imps in Hell), with more senior/ powerful celestials around to follow up on any reports which look as though they might turn out to be interesting. It is also a useful way to break in some new staff who have shown signs of being able to work on their own initiative and need to be taught more about the superior's word and work. The Library: Best thought of as a semi-living entity. Mapping the library is an arbitrary kind of job, which owes as much to serendipity and what kind of mood the library seems to be in as to any formal methodology. No-one senior seems to mind the lack of method though, as long as cartographers are returning regular reports. Destiny is assumed to ensure that the right bits of library get mapped in their proper time and season. Recruiting: (PCs for this one will be either 5/ 6 force relievers who happened to be in the library at the time, or low-ranking destiny angels, or anyone else who has a reason to want to learn the library's layout, and whose superior is friendly enough with Yves to allow this.) Bet-Sofer, the map room supervisor, gathers the relievers/ angels together and briefs them quickly on how important mapping is to the library. He then assigns them to UDC, a newly fledged cataloguing angel who will give them more precise instructions. They will be introduced by UDC to Kinri, a reliever who knows how to sail a landship. Kinri is small and quiet, and clings tightly around UDC's arm, as if reluctant to let go. It is very brave and doesn't cry though. In fact it doesn't say anything at all. The exploration vessel is a beautifully wrought little landship, perfectly sized for sailing up and down library corridors. The name on its bow reads 'Hope-She-Floats' and the figurehead is a carved wooden cherubic figure with a scroll. A compass of some description is installed on the main deck, and fairly extensive maps are laid out in a little map-room. Essentially what the relievers are to do is to fill in any blanks on the maps, note any changes and send back reports to the cataloguing team. There are 2 kinds of reports they can make. One is a basic status-report for which they are to leave notes in books which they pass (4th book along, 2nd shelf down, on a corner-shelf), and the other is to send back their updated maps. The ship's figurehead is a relic to which any angel or reliever can attune, as if _they_ were the cherub and a little messenger reliever will turn up promptly every evening to collect their maps and return to UDC with them. UDC asks the relievers to appoint amongst themselves a 'captain' and a 'comms officer' before giving a more specific briefing. It shows them roughly which parts of the map they are to patrol, and asks that any new shelving or corridors be properly mapped, telling them that time is not really of the essence. It wants them to take as long as they need to get things right. It does also point out to them a fairly distant section in which one of the previous mapping teams reported some unidentified disturbance, which it would like them to try and pinpoint. It is also made clear that whilst there is not expected to be any extant danger in the library, if they do encounter anything they can't cope with, they do not have to deal with it themselves. (But if any of them are really keen to attract attention from the higher ups and maybe even fledge someday, it won't do any harm to show a certain amount of competence). Library Staff (NPCs): Sifriel, Seraph of Destiny, Angel of Serendipity, Head Librarian (You could alternatively use AA Beth (http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html) for this, with a slight demotion (if she doesn't mind)) (PC relievers are unlikely to meet the Head Librarian in person, unless something especially important comes up -- but you never know...) Bet-Sofer, Elohite of Destiny, Map-Room Supervisor The Map-Room supervisor is a dour angel, with an odd fondness for antique gadgetry (he originally worked for Jean before transferring to the library and old habits die hard). He likes his records to be kept in good order and is a stickler for forms, maps and reports being filled out by the books. His reasoning is that it makes the collated data easier for other people to use and saves time if everyone uses the same format. The map-room is circular, and one of the more popular 'tourist' traps in the library. It has a huge brass chronometer as its centrepiece, and various nautical and map-making instruments displayed in little cabinets next to the map-cases. The library itself is mapped on a huge wallchart that covers the entirety of walls, floor and ceiling, which is updated by use of pins, bits of coloured string and marker tags on a daily basis. Bet-Sofer has attached a small clockwork spider-gadget to one of the trailing strands whose other end holds a pen. In this way he can provide 'print-outs' of various segments if people need to take them away. Urdicalla (UDC), Mercurian of Destiny, Junior Cataloguer UDC has recently fledged from a reliever and is currently in charge of one of the cataloguing teams, which will be the first to follow up cartographic reports if it seems that any new material has been sighted on the shelves. It hasn't been assigned a mortal vessel yet so its celestial form tends to the androgynous. It is a friendly enough angel, and will happily relate to any relievers who hang round it all the stories it has heard about earth and mortals. These stories sound extraordinarily rose-tinted to anyone who has ever actually been to the corporeal realm. It has even met _Yves_ in person (but only once, when it fledged) and will share the experience with any interested party also, with suitable exaggerations for dramatic effect. It is desperately keen for its team to discover something important like a new tether, in order to get itself noticed and maybe even sent to earth some day! Kinri, Reliever (in service to destiny at the moment) A quiet, shy little thing which is composed of only 4 forces. It is recently returned to heaven from having accompanied one of its parent angels to earth. It was hiding under a chair when a couple of demons soul-killed its parent and was found by another angel some days later, totally traumatised. It hasn't spoken/ sung a word since then but has been given some light work to try to coax it out of its self-induced isolation. It can take orders and knows how to operate the landship. Atmosphere: This plot seed is based in the celestial realms. Any attempts by anyone to do anything which is particularly destiny-ish or library-ish should have an appropriately higher chance of succeeding. (Next: What they find... the truth is out there?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:14:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? At 7:11 PM -0400 6/15/98, Emily K. Dresner wrote: >> I wonder... I wonder how much of >> Judaism, in the IN universe, was crafted *before* the Fall? How much >> before demons started showing up in the Marches and on Earth? >> >> After all, Hell did *not* exist for a long time. Heaven, as Heaven, >> was much different. Demons weren't around... > >It all depends on when you want to set the Fall. If it happened right >after Eden, well, no dice. Right. Hm. In celestial terms, it is said to happen fairly soon after Eden. According to celestials, who were the ones sitting around watching things evolve. According to the APG, p. 8, after the Eden Experiement was contaminated, "[Lucifer] and God discussed the matter for a long, long time." According to IN, p. 149, "Long before the Fall, Lilith walked the Earth, beautiful and immortal." Back to the APG, p. 8. Even after the Fall, "Relative peace marked the first few millennia". The demons managed to get into the Marches first, then, "eventually discovered how to travel to and from" Earth. I think we have a few thousand years to play with... Also, Eden isn't the beginning of humankind, so there's some history and stuff from *before* Eden (which may or may not have gotten conflated and stuff). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:54:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Judaism and the Fall (was Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity?) At 8:52 AM -0400 6/16/98, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Andrew Frades wrote: >>Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >>> I wonder... I wonder how much of >>> Judaism, in the IN universe, was crafted *before* the Fall? How much >>> before demons started showing up in the Marches and on Earth? > >Sadly, this is inconsistent with published canon. The death of Oannes >was identified with the Theran explosion, which happened in 1650 BCE. >This predates the birth of Judaism by at least a few centuries. > >It's a lovely theory, though. :) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:15:23 -0700 From: "Jarrod D. Stanek" Subject: IN> Servitors of Eli If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed and appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get new vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:00:03 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Servitors of Eli >If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed and >appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get new >vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? They barter con queso y phonos!!! - -Perry, Kyriotate of Novalis serving Eli and occasionally Tanniael, Archangel of Tea. "You're nor Satan, you're a psychotic individual with biophysical malfunction!" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:24:15 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> questions from a would-be player In a message dated 98-06-15 16:34:53 EDT, you write: > I'm a veteran GM of six or so years and I've become facinated with > In Nomine. I've read the descriptions on all the books, been to as many [snip] > > (1)First of all, what is it that you, as players (especially game > masters), like about In Nomine? What puts it above other games? I've been gaming for approx 15 years . I still have all my old AD&D books, though they're tucked away in a box somewhere, but I haven't played that game in quite a while (with the exception of Planescape which I *really* like). As I've grown older, my taste in game worlds has matured as well. In Nomine is not as cliche'd as other games (and i realize that this depends a lot on the maturity of the GM as well). I don't like RPG's (or gaming groups) who get stuck into a pattern of "this is the gang/monster/villain we have to destroy this week, lets get out the mapboard... again" (which has been a problem with a Deadlands RP group I've played with recently; NOTE the problem here is with the group, not the game, as I really enjoy Deadlands too). My first two sessions of running In Nomine there was absolutely no combat. None. And it was a beautiful thing to participate in. The kyrio in our group was probably the most entertaining, being a younger angel on his first trip to earth who found everything about mundane culture fascinating. The third session we finally got to the combat, but it was the most intense RP combat I"ve ever engaged in. My players were truly concerned about the effect their open aggression on the demons would have with the mundanes (which drove the Cherub of Laurence in the group absolutedly batty). I really credit my players. Most of them are really good, and I have been lucky to GM for them. > Secondly, is there a range of backgrounds to work with besides Earth in > the present? Does the game present oppertunities for celestial and > demonic beings to deal with human at other times as well? What do most > games end up revolving around? Is it the constant effort by both side > to sway humanity or other things as well? Does In Nomine seem to be the > kind of game that "takes itself seriously" or are there elements of > satire and tounge-in-cheek that I should be aware of? I run my campaign in the modern world, which has actually been refreshing (and is the setting in the rules as well). Someone on the list mentioned that the game revolves around the War, which is true, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. One of my players has a Saint of Creation he plays on the side (since he he really doesn't fit in too well with the servant of Dominic, natch) who continually concerns himself with mundane hard-luck-cases -- which is as it should be -- and only contributes with the more celestial matters when he feels like it. This too has presented unique playing experiences which otherwise would never have happened. > (3) Now for the tough stuff, the religions questions. Forgive me if I > step on anybodies toes here, I don't mean to. I find this game > interesting because I'm an agnostic/pagan with a Christian upbringing. I'm a christian who has been begging my group to play the demonic side once in while, but they will have nothing to do with it (but they begged me to switch and play Imperials when I ran a Star Wars campaign, sheesh. Now, talk about combat of the week games... but is a hellofa lot of fun). > I've also been, more or less, persecuted by Christians of various types > for my personal values, situational ethics, and arguements against > history as the Bible tells it. I've had this happen too. I tend to be a *very* open-minded sort of christian. Thanks for providing me the opportunity to share. -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "There's one hole in every revolution, large or small. And it's one word long: people. No matter how big the idea they all stand under, people are small and weak and cheap and frightened. It's people that kill every revolution." (I love Spider Jerusalem too!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:30:46 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Servitors of Eli >From: "Jarrod D. Stanek" > >If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed and >appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get new >vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? > Or from Gabby, since she goes there so seldomly. It might be time to go in service to another archangel, huh? Otherwise, you just might be screwed. Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #828 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.