From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jun 21 23:45:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03035 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 23:45:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA12846 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:51:00 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:51:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199806220351.WAA12846@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, June 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 833 In this digest: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli IN> "Pagan" Christianity IN> "Pagan" Christianity Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? IN> Hearts Re: IN> Jordi, most dissonant of Archangels Re: IN> Jordi, most dissonent of Archangels Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? IN> Story : The Woman In The Window Re: IN> Lower Hells (And a NEW question!) Strong Bodies (was Re: IN> Hearts) IN> Choice of Virtues IN> Riddle of the Sphinx Re: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Choice of Virtues Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Lower Hells Re: IN> Choice of Virtues ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 04:19:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli I had always pictured the creation of a vessel to be something akin to a rather personal experience between a Superior and its Servitor. But the recent discussions about vessel creation, especially with absent Superiors, got me thinking in the other direction. What if it really _is_ more delegated than a direct line from the Superior to the Servitor? Even if other Celestials don't actually _make_ the vessels, they could be put in charge of them: requisition, allocation, replacement. Weren't we talking about Celestial "administrative duties" not too long ago? :) Then you can get all kinds of "Hey, this isn't what I ordered..." snafus and fun stuff like that. Then, of course, I think the natural progression leads to the odd Renegade (or Outcast) "jacking" a vessel from the warehouse and escaping to Earth. Is there anything in canon which _requires_ a Celestial to have a Heart before entering the Corporeal plane? Think of the escape possibilities... :) - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:47:11 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> "Pagan" Christianity >>>Now can we change the subject?<<< Well, no, but anyone who isn't interested can stop reading this thread if they like. I happen to think a theological discussion _is_ quite pertinent to In Nomine, even if not every post is specifically devoted to putting things in In Nomine terms. There have, after all, been some complaints in the past that In Nomine is too "theologically light" and shows no appreciation for or understanding of real-world religious issues. There are obvious problems with trying to align In Nomine with any particular real-world belief system, at least canonically...but it's still a perfectly germaine topic. - -David (_I'm_ certainly not gonna be the one to turn it into a flamewar about who's gonna burn in hell for being a dirty rotten infidel...;)) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:00:20 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> "Pagan" Christianity >>>Actually, there's a third and fourth issue as well: the third is if there is a difference between "offical" theology and an individual member's theology whether this a problem or not,<<< For the individual, I guess that depends on whether or not the "official" theology happens to be correct... ;) >>>and the fourth is what this has to do with In Nomine?<<< What does religious dogma have to do with a game about angels, demons, and the war for human souls? Gee....... >>>The problem is a definition of Christianity _qua_ Christianity. Is there a single unifying commonality between everyone who calls themselves Christians, or isn't there? My arguement is that there must be a commonality, and I beleive (from talking to a *lot* of Christians of various stripes) that there is. It's quite simple, actually. I call it the Fish Creed. Jesus the Christ, God's Son, Savior. (Iesu o Cristos Qeon Uiou Sator) ( ><>)<<< I'll agree with you as far as saying that the common element among all Christian denominations I know of is that they believe Jesus was the Son of God, and that his mission to Earth was redemptive. This still does not not make the case that most Christian denominations maintain the position that only Christians can go to heaven, and I still maintain that that assertion is incorrect. >>>A final summary is that In Nomine has incredibly poor theology from a Christian point of view,<<< Inasmuch as In Nomine does not present Christianity (any known denomination of Christianity, anyway) as being "right", true. In Nomine is not a Christian game. If you want Christian In Nomine, there have been a few versions posted in the past, you can probably dig them out of the archives. >>>and I for one *do* believe that In Nomine presents Christianity from a "Pagan" point of view, as the thread title states. (Note that I mean "Pagan" in the Latin sense of "Hick" rather than the more modern English/PC sense of "Polytheist")<<< In Nomine presents all real religions from a "pagan" point of view, since canonical In Nomine pretty much says that none of them are completely right, and many of them aren't even close. That's not an oversight or a mistake due to poor understanding on the part of the writers, it's quite deliberate. Whether or not the writers understand real world religions when they _do_ try to deal with "real" theology is a valid question (I can hear Dresner starting to hyperventilate) but it's not pertinent here. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:20:17 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? >A final summary is that In Nomine has incredibly poor theology from a >Christian point of view, and I for one *do* believe that In Nomine presents >Christianity from a "Pagan" point of view, as the thread title states. Good thing they were just trying to write a fun game with a (hopefully) internally consistent theology and not trying to write a scholarly theological dissertation. :) AB ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:10:28 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? > Good thing they were just trying to write a fun game with a (hopefully) > internally consistent theology and not trying to write a scholarly > theological dissertation. It's not so much a theological dissertation, as just trying to get a little world history correct. That's two different buckets entirely, and there are points in some of the books where things are one or two thousand years off. I think you can get some of the theological followthrough closer to what people expect if the history is all in place. - - Em, who is _not_ hyperventaliting. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:48:55 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: IN> Hearts At 04:19 AM -0400 06/21/1998, Sheep Boy wrote: > Is there anything in canon which >_requires_ a Celestial to have a Heart before entering the Corporeal >plane? Think of the escape possibilities... :) > Hearts seem to represent different things to the residents of Heaven and Hell. To an Angel, the Heart is "the lit candle on the window sill" pointing the way home. For a Diabolical, it's the license to the Earthly realm. All Angels seem to have Hearts, but among the diabolical set, only demons slated for Earth duty seem to do so. While it also has the "lit candle" function like the one for angels, the usual place settings reserved for Demonic hearts don't exactly exude that warm fuzzy feeling. :) Part of a successful Renegade's careet involves locating and smashing your Heart as you make tracks. So a Demon can: 1) Immediate shift to the corporeal plane in the act of smashing its heart. (Provided it has a corporeal vessel handy) 2) maket its way to Earth by use of a Tether. (that of course can be a tad tricky. Hearts aren't the same kind of liability to Outcasts as the Fracture present in an OutCast's heart not only prevents the OutCast from using it as a link to ascension, it also ceases it's tracking function. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:57:18 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Jordi, most dissonant of Archangels John Dye wrote: > >It strikes me that Jordi must be the most dissonent of archangels >(Dominic should be informed, but then again, Dom doesnt' speak bug so >how would he know?). > >I take this from two factors. First, according to Genesis (yes, I AM >going to use it as a base In Nom source) God gave man domination over >the plants and creatures of the air water etc. I'm not going to argue >about HOW he was supposed to rule, but he was given charge of all of >them. Now I really doubt Jordi ever believed that a naked, clawless >house-ape would ever challange his incredibly broad Word, but it has and >I'm betting Jordi's in denial. Well, I use Genesis as a source, too, and I decided that Jordi did not receive his word until /after/ Adam and Eve fell. (What follows rides on original sin, so Jo will be annoyed. Apologies in advance. :) So, Adam and Eve, in their original sinless state were given dominion over the plants and animals of the natural world. So far, so good, but when they rebelled against God, their nature was corrupted and they were therefore no longer capable of properly governing the animal world. So instead of respecting the wildness of the tiger and loving the loyalty of the dog, fallen humans exterminated the tigers and bred dogs into deformed and dependent creatures -- instead of acting like good shepherd, men became tyrants. Jordi was assigned his word in response to the human fall. His job is damage control -- to minimize the damage the spiritual cancer in mankind does to the biological world. Jordi knows, intimately, the glory to which animals could have achieved if only human beings had resisted temptation and remained in their proper state. This is why he is not happy with mankind; his job would have been totally unnecessary if only Adam and Eve had not screwed up so badly. And this is why Jordi emphasises keeping humans away from the animal world as much as possible. He's not very interested in mankind because that's not the task God assigned him. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:59:00 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Jordi, most dissonent of Archangels >It strikes me that Jordi must be the most dissonent of archangels >(Dominic should be informed, but then again, Dom doesnt' speak bug so >how would he know?). > Superiors and other Word Bound can find them selves in a different quandary than the ordinary rank and file Angel. A Superior like Jordi can find himself at odds with some of the goals of Heaven while promoting his Word. Strictly speaking, Jordi would not be dissonant unless he either violated the dissonance conditions of his Word (rather extremely unlikely), his Choir (by using animal hosts in direct attacks on mankind that would cause the death of animals, so that using tactics as effective as posessing a swarm killer bees is out), or by directly refusing a personal request from God itself. As I understand it, it was Micheal and the other Archangels who persuaded him to call off his proposed Animal vendetta, but he would not have been dissonant if he rebuffed their request. Of course the prospect of starting another civil war in Heaven with itself and its forces on the extreme short end might not have appealed either. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:38:26 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > The problem is a definition of Christianity _qua_ Christianity. Is there a > single unifying commonality between everyone who calls themselves Christians, > or isn't there? My arguement is that there must be a commonality, and I > beleive (from talking to a *lot* of Christians of various stripes) that there > is. It's quite simple, actually. > > I call it the Fish Creed. > > Jesus the Christ, God's Son, Savior. (Iesu o Cristos Qeon Uiou Sator) ( ><>) > > The last word is the most important to my argument. Jesus is the Savior. Well, that's a beuatiful theory. Unfortunatly, that's not the accepted official definition of Christianity. At least, according to the World Christian Council which put out a definition that most demoninations subscribe to. According to them, you must believe in the Trinity to be Christian. If you belong to a demonination that does not, even if it does believe that Christ is the Saviou, you are SOL in their eyes. > A final summary is that In Nomine has incredibly poor theology from a > Christian point of view, and I for one *do* believe that In Nomine presents > Christianity from a "Pagan" point of view, as the thread title states. (Note > that I mean "Pagan" in the Latin sense of "Hick" rather than the more modern > English/PC sense of "Polytheist") I'm still not entirely sure what you mean by a "Pagan" point of view, and I've followed this entire thread. Yes, In Nomine presents a fairly heretical view of Christian mythology. Yes, it's not what I plan to teach my children (when I finally have some). But I still don't understand the "Pagan" thing. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 17:48:51 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Story : The Woman In The Window (with thanks to Emily Dresner, who helped me think up this one) THE WOMAN IN THE WINDOW 20th October I knew I was right. There is a woman staying in the room opposite. I can see her when she passes the window and moves into my line of sight: she paces angrily, her sleeves twitching as though she's gesturing. Her hair is beautiful, this sleek cap of gold that glows in the light like a crown. I wish I could see what colour her eyes are, but she's too far away. 21st October She's still there. I managed to get a better view tonight, and I could see that she was wearing a full-length dress, not just a top and some sort of skirt or jeans. I like that. She ought to be in a dress, someone as gorgeous as that. It's a very deep green dress, the colour they call forest green, and she has a choker with some sort of ivory cameo brooch on it. Her face is thin - perhaps she isn't eating enough - and I still can't tell what colour her eyes are. Sometimes she goes out of my line of sight, and she must be sitting down or something. I wish I could see better. The window itself hinders my view, as it's one of the antique arched ones and they draw the curtains when it gets dark. They, yes, they. I've seen at least one man in there with her, though she never seems to leave the room. It's difficult to be sure, but the one I think I recognise is shorter than she is. He keeps on trying to put his hand on her shoulder - fondling, almost - but she shrugs him off and walks away. I don't like him. 22nd October I think she saw me through the window! Our eyes met, I know it. Her eyebrows are the heavy sort - it's that look of dark eyebrows and golden hair which some women have. She paused for a moment, looking outward, then turned back to the man who was in there with her. A second man this time, taller than her, in a well-cut business suit. He was wearing dark glasses, an odd thing given that it was nearly sunset. Perhaps a lawyer, or her uncle or father - his hair was brown, mind - or some kind of doctor. They spoke a while, with him leaning by the door, spine as straight as a poker, and her pacing. At one point she moved across to him, grasping for his shoulders, trying to touch his face; he didn't try to shake her off, but something seemed to happen. She recoiled, as though he had hit her, and fell to the ground, out of my sight. When she got up again, her hands were pressed to her temples, and I thought that she was crying. He just stood there, watching her dispassionately, and said something short and cold. She shook her head, and he shrugged, opening the door and stepping outside. Perhaps he's a lawyer trying to pressurise her into signing some sort of agreement. I could believe that. He could be keeping her prisoner there, till she agrees to his terms. I would have watched longer, but the short man came in and drew the curtains. 23rd October I dreamed about her last night; we were dancing in a room of candles and mirrors. She's so beautiful, I could believe anything of her, expect anything of her. When I looked across this afternoon, there was a third man with her. He was actually sitting in front of the window, watching her as she leaned against the door, in the same position that the tall man had been the day before, saying something to him. She still had the cameo around her throat, and the same dress that she has always been wearing. Perhaps it's some kind of quarantine for an infectious disease, except then why would they be going in and out to visit her like that? They could be quarantining themselves, I suppose. I don't see anyone going into the house, or coming out of it. Maybe they're her family, or friends, or private doctors, but then why is she so unhappy? The third man was assembling a gun in his lap; I saw him checking the action on the slide as she screamed at him. It was dreadful to see it in her face, the slip from calm beauty to furious bitterness, the way her mouth stretched as she shrieked and raised her hands to claw at her face. He didn't shift his position, not even moving his shoulders as he lowered the gun again. He didn't move at all as she began to cry. 24th October Another dream of her. I dreamed that she had blue eyes, as vivid as the morning sky. I dreamed of myself opening the door, so that she could come running down the stairs and I could take her in my arms. When I looked through the window, all three of the men were in the room with her. The tall one stood by the door, and the short one held her shoulders where she sat in the chair, head bowed, and the quiet one was lounging against the wall, barely in sight; I only saw him when he moved, once or twice. The tall one kept on talking to her, pausing occasionally for answers. Her replies seemed very short, only a yes or a no. She didn't even look up to try and see me. It can't have been disease, or the short one wouldn't touch her like that, hands resting so wardingly on her shoulders. Perhaps she has some sort of mania, and they're her guards, but she doesn't look insane. I wish I knew. They questioned her till sunset, and perhaps afterwards, but the short man drew the curtains again and that was all. She sat like a defeated queen, hands still in her lap, the cameo glinting at her lovely throat. 25th October In my dream last night, she whispered to me that she loved me, as I embraced her and kissed her. Can she know that I think about her? I wondered if she might be a political prisoner, and the three men would have to be CIA or something, bodyguards. That makes the most sense of anything yet. A fourth man came by to see her today; I didn't see him enter the house, but he was talking to her when I looked across. He was stooped, hair greying at the temples, but he had the air of a hanging judge, so drawn and cold. I thought that he might be some kind of medical consultant, explaining a diagnosis or giving a final verdict. He didn't speak to her long. She tried to keep her composure as she watched him, head lifted proudly, but at his words her calm broke, and she lowered her eyes, shoulders trembling. There might have been a shadow of pity in him for a moment, but he said nothing more as he opened the door and left the room. She walked across to the window, and stood there, looking out. Her hands were flat against the pane, so I could see how delicate her fingers were, how fragile a construction she was: wide pale eyes, golden hair washed by the last of the sunset, high-boned face twisted in an absolute desperation and despair. She didn't see me - I'm not sure that she saw anything as she looked out at the end of the day over the city. I willed her to look at me, to show some sign that she cared about me, that she had shared my dreams, but she didn't even try. She drew the curtains shut in a ripple of motion, and the sunset light flickered against the glass like blood. 26th October When I looked across today, the room was empty. I thought for a while that she might be out of my line of sight, but eventually I had to accept that she had gone, and that there was nobody there. Why couldn't she have let me know somehow, or contacted me? I'd been watching her through the window for a week now, I'd thought about her, I'd dreamed of her. Did that mean so little to her? Perhaps I'd made a mistake about her all along. Just a pretty face and no more. I felt disappointed. Still, before night fell, the short man came into the room, and began to tidy it, fussing with the chairs and bed. Perhaps they're going to have someone else staying there soon. - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:34:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Lower Hells (And a NEW question!) I was catching up on soe old email, and look what I came across... - ---Shadowstar wrote: > > Greetings, > > > Some talk a while back about Celestial beasts brought to mind a long > >standing question of mine. What besides Lucifer and a company of > >unfortunate demons and damned, resides in the Lower Hells? You can't tell > > >complete and Utter oblivion, the Void. And maybe, just maybe, Anti-God > Hmmm....the Anti-God? Now, there's a concept...better get to work on it! By the way, what Choir was the Demon Princess of Oblivion, before she became an appetizer for Haggenti? Graveyard Greg, Living Relic of Creation (huh?) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:45:59 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Strong Bodies (was Re: IN> Hearts) I would think that fleeing to Earth would necessitate having Corporeal Forces, in order to maintain a Vessel. Remember the story from Heaven and Hell? Domenic stripped the angel of all her Corporeal Forces. On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:48:55 -0400 Frank Lazar writes: >At 04:19 AM -0400 06/21/1998, Sheep Boy wrote: >> Is there anything in canon which>>_requires_ a Celestial to have a Heart before entering the Corporeal>>plane? Think of the escape possibilities... :) >> > > >Hearts seem to represent different things to the residents of Heaven >and>Hell. To an Angel, the Heart is "the lit candle on the window sill" >pointing the way home. For a Diabolical, it's the license to the >Earthly >realm. All Angels seem to have Hearts, but among the diabolical set, >only>demons slated for Earth duty seem to do so. While it also has the >"lit>candle" function like the one for angels, the usual place settings >reserved>for Demonic hearts don't exactly exude that warm fuzzy feeling. :) > > Part of a successful Renegade's careet involves locating and >smashing >your Heart as you make tracks. So a Demon can: > > >1) Immediate shift to the corporeal plane in the act of smashing its >heart. (Provided it has a corporeal vessel handy) > >2) maket its way to Earth by use of a Tether. (that of course can be >a tad>tricky. > > Hearts aren't the same kind of liability to Outcasts as the >Fracture >present in an OutCast's heart not only prevents the OutCast from using >it>as a link to ascension, it also ceases it's tracking function. > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 17:46:10 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: IN> Choice of Virtues I can afford either Liber Requilium, which has a bunch of songs, which I like, or Angelic Players Guide, which deals with characters. Can someone persuasively give me a reason to buy one over the other? Make your voice heard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:57:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Gastonguay Subject: IN> Riddle of the Sphinx (yes I am the same guy who was complaining about my group) So far to limit their cheesing of the next adventure. . . I have premade their characters, and they aren't combat mongers. Otherwise, i'm just going to yell at them the whole session until i become a Habbalite.awwwwell For my adventure/campaign? they are all angels of Blandine in post WWI Egypt, the purpose of the adventure is that a Ethereal has gone corporeal and they have to track it down and bring it back to the far marches.(what else can you think of at 1:00am) The ethereal is an embodyment of the Sphinx, who askes a riddle to it's worshipers, and if they miss it than their essense is sucked out of him. So far i have very few riddles to use against my players.(so far all i can get from my other list is -"Why do they have Braille on drive-up ATM's" and "If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?") If you would be so kind, if you find any fairly good riddles, email them to me(along with the answers please, i read my mail at midnight and i can't think by then). Thanx in advance. Deacon, Elohite of Destiny(yes an Elohite, nitpickers, come and get me!) under the role of Adam, student writer. All typing and grammar errors are courtasy of Knoch High School and lack of sleep. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:01:00 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? In a message dated 6/21/98 9:46:51 AM, R. Gant wrote: > > >On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >> The problem is a definition of Christianity _qua_ Christianity. Is there a >> single unifying commonality between everyone who calls themselves Christians, >> or isn't there? My arguement is that there must be a commonality, and I >> beleive (from talking to a *lot* of Christians of various stripes) that there >> is. It's quite simple, actually. >> >> I call it the Fish Creed. >> >> Jesus the Christ, God's Son, Savior. (Iesu o Cristos Qeon Uiou Sator) ( ><>) >> >> The last word is the most important to my argument. Jesus is the Savior. > >Well, that's a beuatiful theory. Unfortunatly, that's not the accepted >official definition of Christianity. At least, according to the World >Christian Council which put out a definition that most demoninations >subscribe to. According to them, you must believe in the Trinity to be >Christian. If you belong to a demonination that does not, even if it does >believe that Christ is the Saviour, you are SOL in their eyes. > This is mainly because the World Christian Council doesn't wish to include Jehovah's Witnesses who *call themselves* Christians as Christian. (Among other 'heterodox' denominations.) I was trying to find a commonality among people claiming to be Christian, not looking to find an outside definition. >> A final summary is that In Nomine has incredibly poor theology from a >> Christian point of view, and I for one *do* believe that In Nomine presents >> Christianity from a "Pagan" point of view, as the thread title states. (Note >> that I mean "Pagan" in the Latin sense of "Hick" rather than the more modern >> English/PC sense of "Polytheist") > >I'm still not entirely sure what you mean by a "Pagan" point of view, and >I've followed this entire thread. Yes, In Nomine presents a fairly >heretical view of Christian mythology. Yes, it's not what I plan to teach >my children (when I finally have some). But I still don't understand the >"Pagan" thing. The Latin term 'Pagani' refers to people who lived and worked in the wilderness areas of the Roman Empire (as opposed to 'plebiani' or 'patriciani', who were part of the Roman urban or villa system). "Pagans" were then known as people who had less of a theological clue than those under the more structured Senatorial/ Magistral/ Episcopal organization in the centralized parts of the Empire. Later, these pagans came to be seen as heretics or devil worshipers, and even later (in the Romantic movement, I think) as enlightened anti-urbanites with a better view of the way the world 'realy works.' From there to the current neo-Pagan movement is a short leap... (Note that this is what I remember from studies about six to ten years ago, so the details may be off...) > >Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:19:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Choice of Virtues > I can afford either Liber Requilium, which has a bunch of songs, which I > like, or Angelic Players Guide, which deals with characters. > > Can someone persuasively give me a reason to buy one over the other? > > Make your voice heard > Are you a Game Master? By all means, buy the Liber R. It's well organized, well thought out, well put together, and as artifacts go, it's invariably useful. Of all the supplements so far, it's probably the best, and the most useful to the GM who is planning a game and needs to stock it with stuff. I still believe that artifact creation is really too expensive, but if it's just NPCs doing the creating, then it's no big deal. Although - my players are driving me nuts with the 40 Slices of Cheese, but they're my discord and all that. If I heard ONE MORE cheese sammich joke, someone is going to get bopped. The APG is... um.... well... I did a review of it some time ago, and I believe I ended up giving it a rating of a D+. We don't even talk about the Kyrio extended resonance writeup. (What? There is one in the book? Where?) Typos, poor wording, a Falling section that is nearly unreadable... this book is unfortunately forgettable. Luckily, on the flip side, the _Infernal Player's Guide_, while not really useful to a GM, or at least not to me, is certainly an entertaining read, and _much_ more professionally done. (IM not so HO, the best two books thus far are the LR and the IPG.) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 23:34:40 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? At 12:38 PM 21/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >> The problem is a definition of Christianity _qua_ Christianity. Is there a >> single unifying commonality between everyone who calls themselves Christians, >> or isn't there? My arguement is that there must be a commonality, and I >> beleive (from talking to a *lot* of Christians of various stripes) that there >> is. It's quite simple, actually. >> >> I call it the Fish Creed. >> >> Jesus the Christ, God's Son, Savior. (Iesu o Cristos Qeon Uiou Sator) ( ><>) >> >> The last word is the most important to my argument. Jesus is the Savior. > >Well, that's a beuatiful theory. Unfortunatly, that's not the accepted >official definition of Christianity. At least, according to the World >Christian Council which put out a definition that most demoninations >subscribe to. According to them, you must believe in the Trinity to be >Christian. If you belong to a demonination that does not, even if it does >believe that Christ is the Saviou, you are SOL in their eyes. > >> A final summary is that In Nomine has incredibly poor theology from a >> Christian point of view, and I for one *do* believe that In Nomine presents >> Christianity from a "Pagan" point of view, as the thread title states. (Note >> that I mean "Pagan" in the Latin sense of "Hick" rather than the more modern >> English/PC sense of "Polytheist") > >I'm still not entirely sure what you mean by a "Pagan" point of view, and >I've followed this entire thread. Yes, In Nomine presents a fairly >heretical view of Christian mythology. Yes, it's not what I plan to teach >my children (when I finally have some). But I still don't understand the >"Pagan" thing. > >Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant > >I believe this all started with the supposition there could be Yahwehs, Allahs, etc running around in the Marches, along with Zeus, Ishtar and Vishnu. However pagan has a whole new meaning this century, what with the Neo-Pagan revival and all, pagan comes from the latin pagus, meaning a peasant, or a country man, a rural denizens, known for their closeness with nature and things esoteric, unlike the more rational, more worldy city-people. But my take on the title goes back to something I read in a book about Neo-Paganism, that Christianity is just a more modern version of Paganism, the dying God, the resurrecting God, the Divine Mother, etc, all done before, therefore in a way Christianity is a just a modern derivation of faiths that stretch back for millennia. This is IRL I understand, but in IN the Celestials have been working on religion for some time, why not borrow popular themes if you are going to start one of your own? Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:05:11 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Lower Hells Elizabeth cursed as her key dropped out of her hand (the Lilim of Lust serving in Chicago, not related or representing any Rl individuals) it fell on to plush carpeting and seemed to try and bury itself, Elizabeth cursed again as she dropped her shopping bag. "Fu**," she sighed as she grabbed, it, and wrenched it out, only now she realized something, everything had changed. Elizabeth stared stunned at the hallway which before had been warm and cosy, now cold and arching, infinitely high, the colours darker now, far more ominous. She felt like she had stepped in to a H.R. Giger painting, in the distance she heard noises she thought were better ignored, fot the very sake of her sanity. "Where am I?" she called out in the cyclopean hall, but there was nothing in reply, not even andecho. She saw the door in front of her though, that had grown, tenfold at least, she could put her head in the keyhole now, instead she put in the key, which fit, despite the difference in size, she turned and opened. "Fu**," she exclaimed again, it was her room but now everything was wrong. The tv set was over-sized, misproportioned, and pulsating like a noxious ooze. Her couch was more deformed then a whole circus full of freaks, which snarling heads on the end, and then there was her kitchen, which was now a sinister Mc Donalds, in which blood dripped from the employees mouths. "What in Lucifer's name?" she exclaimed, and then she finally had her reply. "Speak of the devil," it said, and Elizabeth spun around. And it was the Adversary, sitting on the terrible couch, looking all the while like a wicked priest, or a sadistic doctor, he grinned a terrible grin and Elizabeth felt herself go weak. "You petitioned me for a Word, well Andrealphus did the petitioning, I will hear you now, why you should have this word, why you are qualified. Elizabeth felt as if there was a lump in her throat, weighing at least half a ton, she was so afraid, and so cold, that she started shivering as if in delirium. "Oh dear, my aren't we the courageous type,' Lucifer said with the supreme sarcasm that only he could muster, he clicked his fingers and a roaring bonfire appeared out of nowhere. "Want a Big Mac?" he asked with a wicked smile, holding in his own hands such a burger which he dug in to. Warmer now, and a little more in control, the lump disappeared, or rather became lighter. "No thanks,' she stated. "Well?" Lucifer motioned for her to speak. "I applied," ahem, the lump was returning "I applied for the word of," ahem- "You applied for the word of Internet Porn?" "No," Elizabeth smiled weakly "I was, a, enlarging, ah, Chicagos lesbian community," "And that is the word you want, the demon of Chicago dykes?" "No-" "Ah, erm, uh, enough with that, you have just proved here that you cant even say what your word is, so how about I give you the one I just said?" And even before Elizabeth could protest Lucifer was gone, and Elzabeth was in her own room, and now worded. She slumped in to her now normal couch stunned, thinking, I don't ever want to go back there again. Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 23:19:29 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Choice of Virtues >I can afford either Liber Requilium, which has a bunch of songs, which I >like, or Angelic Players Guide, which deals with characters. > >Can someone persuasively give me a reason to buy one over the other? > >Make your voice heard What do you think you need most? A guide to building or running characters? Or the InNominee equivalent of an AD+D magic items book? And I'm not being judgemental. Many folks might find the information in the base book enough to deal with character issues, or might have developed supplemental material on their own. The two books answer different needs so I really can't give you a cogent one or the other argument. I do consider both Guides a better read than the Requillim. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #833 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.