From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 1 00:53:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18049 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:53:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA27419 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:56:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:56:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199807010556.AAA27419@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #842 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 842 In this digest: IN> Reincarnation Re: IN> Reincarnation Re: IN> New Superior! (may be very long!) Re: IN> Re: IN- Disturbance Stats !!!!! Re: IN> Geas Question RE: IN> Tarot =?iso-8859-1?Q?cards=85plus_?= elementary harmony and Gurdjieff Re: IN> Reincarnation IN> in nomine Re: IN> in nomine Re: IN> in nomine IN> Heartless Free Lilim Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim Re: IN> Superior politics IN> Ha-satanim, a new minor Band Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim Re: IN> Ha-satanim, a new minor Band Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim IN> character creation Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 13:27 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Reincarnation [York:] >This raises a question about reincarnation. The IN basic rules suggest >that reincarnation is fairly common, since lots of people never reach >either their Destinies or their Fates. The (very brief) discussion of >boddhisatvas in Night Music also seemed to imply that these beings >reincarnate fairly often. The discussion of saints in NM, on the other >hand, clearly states that reincarnation is *rare*, and almost never >repeated more than once for the same individual. (Of course, it's also >apparently contradictory on the nature of putting a saint back into the >corporeal world; one part seems to be saying that they get reborn just >like anyone else gets born, and remember their previous existence as they >near adulthood, another part seems to say that their bodies are just a >slightly-different version of celestial vessel.) Yes, I'm aware of the >fact that NM dates from the Bad Old Days before Beth became Line Editor. >I'm not trying to accuse anyone currently at SJG, I'd just like to know >what the canon position is. I'm not sure there's really a solid canon position on this, currently. Personally, I'd take anything in the Saints section of NM with a grain of salt -- it's got enough problems that I consider it suspect as a source of canon. However, I think one problem here is that we need to distinguish between reincarnation for Saints, and "generic" reincarnation. Saints don't reincarnate many times, since, when they die again, their nature draws them strongly toward the Higher Heavens, whereupon they disappear. (I believe this was added for game design considerations, to keep humans distinct from celestials -- dying is always a serious risk of "character death" for humans, but not celestials.) For "normal" humans, when they die, they may be reincarnated directly as a new *normal* human (presumably a newborn). They don't pass through Heaven (or probably anywhere else but maybe Limbo) in the process, unlike Saints. It's probably a nomenclature problem that the term "reincarnation" is used for Saints returning to the corporeal realm, though the process may sometimes be similar to that of a "normal" reincarnation. Personally, I think the whole Saints thing needs to be clarified. (Maybe in the FAQ, for now?) As far as how often reincarnation occurs, relative to going to Heaven or Hell, or dissipating entirely at death, I'm in favor of this being an Area of Canon Doubt and Uncertainty -- something for the GM to tweak to adjust campaign flavor. For my own campaign, I'd probably set it such that maybe 60-80% of currently-living humans will get reincarnated, rather than going to Heaven or Hell, this time around. Maybe 1-5% will get destroyed, the remainder will split roughly evenly between Heaven and Hell. This would put the average number of incarnations for normal humans at somewhere around 2. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:50:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Reincarnation If votes count, I would prefer that Saints do NOT get reincarnated in the sense of being reborn as babies, but rather that they get vessels similar to an angel's. If you have Saints and Boddhisatvas in the same system, it should be the Boddhisatvas that reincarnate, if anyone does, to avoid being totally confusing in your labels. (After all, in Buddhist theology, a Boddhisatva is someone who has attained enlightenment but deliberately chooses to reincarnate rather than ascend into Nirvana, so as to help those still trapped in illusion.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:54:33 -0400 From: IceHeart EvenFall Subject: Re: IN> New Superior! (may be very long!) At 09:36 AM 6/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >DISSONANCE > >It is dissonant for Servitors of Fury to restrain their rage. If >anything provokes them, they must strike out at the source. Any and >all slights must be retaliated immediately! Lifespan, 2 days? Maybe three. starting demons who strike out at anyone who pisses them off won't live to be strong demons > Balseraphs > Balseraphs are foavored in Tiamat's eyes (for obvious >reasons)--these servitors of Fury start off with the Numinous Corpus >of Acid at a level equal to their Corporeal Forces at _no_ Essence cost. They're so powerful to make up for the fact that they're gonna get killed rather quickly? > Djinn > A Djinn of Fury may use his resonance to instill the Berserk Discord >on a victim, at a level equal to the Djinn's Ethereal Forces. This >does not count against against the total possible targets he may >attune himself to! A successful resonance roll means the victim >suffers the effects of the Discord until either the Djinn removes it, >or the victim makes a successful Will roll. > If the victim ever succeeds with a successful Will roll at any time, >the Djinn will suffer the Berserk Discord instead, for a number of >hours equal to his Ethereal Forces. Does the discord then snap back to the mortal or does it dissipate? And wouldn't this work better possibly if it could only be directed at someone the Djin was attuned to? > Calabim > Calabim of Fury enjoy being in service to Tiamat. They are >considered to always succeed in their resonance roll (still roll for >intervention), but if the target resists, the Calabite must roll as >normal to use his resonance on a different target. If the Calabite >chooses to absorb the failed roll instead, he gets _triple_ the >dissonance! Ok, so these guys have an even SHORTER life span ;) > Habbalah > A Habbalite of Fury may brand a victim with the Diabolic Essence of >Tiamat's Fury. Anyone who sees the victim must make a Will roll or >lash out at him for a number of times equal to the demon's Corporeal >Forces. The duration of the Brand lasts for a number of days equal to >the check digit. I like this one =) > Uncontrolled Rage > For 1 Essence, this attunement allows the demon to go into a >terrible rage, adding his Will to his Strength. While under the >influence of this attunement (which is as long as the demon wishes, >unless he has the Angry, Berserk, or Murderous Discords, then it is at >a duration of minutes equal to the Discord's level), the demon cannot >act in a calm or rational manner, and will be immune to any celestial >effects that can alter his mental state (such as the Song of Harmony) >and many resoance effects (like possesion attempts). Immune seems harsh but maybe that's me. I try to err on the side of caution. > Baron of Primal Rage > The demon can ignite an entire area in a radius of feet equal to 5 >times the Corporeal Forces of the demon, even if the material is >normally non-combustible! No damage is taken during the first round, >doing 1d of damage to everyone every round after that. The flames can >be extinguished by the user at will. This one, and the ones that are mostly like belial's kinda bother me. Admittedly there is a metaphorical link between rage and heat, I don't think that they should be so closely linked. I'd be more likely to use powers that incited people to rage. A demon Incinerating someone doesn't go as far to promote the word Fury as starting a Riot does. >BASIC RITES > Go into a fit of anger in which you inflict a lot of collateral >damage or hurt someone very badly > Get furious at someone who does something nice to you (no good deed >goes unpunished...) > Incite a group of 10 or more to violence (+2) These are more the style that I'd try to fit the attunements/distinctions with rather than Fire. >CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 1 > Invocation Modifiers > +1 Anyone in a state of anger > +2 A Primal Scream of rage > +3 Someone mentally or physically abusing someone out of anger > +4 An object used to hurt someone out of anger > +5 A rioting mob > +6 A bloodbath being done out of rage *shrug* I'd prolly make her invocation like, -2. She WAS a creature of the Marches for an awefully long time, seems to me that she'd not want to leave them often to go to the Corporeal Realm. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:04:34 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Disturbance Stats !!!!! At 8:20 PM -0400 6/29/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Hey, y'all. I did some number crunching and thought you might like to >see the results, :) > >This chart gives the basic range for detecting celestial >disturbances in FEET. One through six celestial forces >are denoted at the top of the chart. The Modifier is in >the first column and goes up to 99. Sorry, you'll have >to do 100 yourself, punk. :) > >At what max range can you hear a person killed? (disturbance 10) >Cele 1: Avg Perception 2, 59ft at -1 >Cele 2: Avg Perception 4, 239ft at -3 >Cele 3: Avg Perception 6, 539ft at -5 >Cele 4: Avg Perception 8, 959ft at -7 >Cele 5: Avg Perception 10, 1499ft at -9 >Cele 6: Avg Perception 12, 2159ft at -11 > >[Note: don't forget that each +1 gives a bonus to the roll, >allowing to autosuccess potential. :) ] One minor quibble: Killing a person is 10 Disturbance, +1 for every Corporeal Force he has. And there's +1 for every 4 points of damage he took if you beat him to death. Other than that, good stuff. I'll definately be saving a copy. = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Spiner, Djinn Knight of Dark Humor, the Demon of Straight Men ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:21:52 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Geas Question At 5:04 PM -0400 6/29/98, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 9:10 PM +0100 6/29/98, Jo Hart wrote: >>At 15:31 29/06/98 EDT, you wrote: >>>A Free Lilim with few or no Geases on her >>>is quite capable of going Renegade, or turning traitor (redeeming), >>>without anyone having a clue it's happening, since she has no Heart to >>>monitor and control her by. >> >>Do you have a ref for where it says that free lilim have no hearts? > >Ummmmmmmmmmmm....... Drat it, I *know* it's *somewhere*. It's in the >FAQ, maybe? I know that there have been assumptions... > >Sounds like I should make an insert in the main book... > Yep, there in the FAQ, as well as in Liber Reliquarium, under False Hearts, page 84. "Asmodeus' decree is that if a Lilim wants a Heart, she can serve a Prince like any other Demon." Makes it damn hard for a Free to make her way back to the Guildhall from Earth, though. Wrote up a meager little artifact to help them out, that's tenatively named a "beacon." Lets the holder, Ascend consciously, and consciously only, to whatever point on the Celestial Plane the Beacon was created attuned to, and he has to make a Will roll to ascend elsewhere. Requires a point of Essence, and once activated, remains activated until it's used. Ascending holding a Beacon whose endpoint you don't know can be...inconvenient. = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Spiner, Djinn Knight of Dark Humor, the Demon of Straight Men ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:49:20 +0100 From: David Michael Arnold Subject: RE: IN> Tarot =?iso-8859-1?Q?cards=85plus_?= elementary harmony and Gurdjieff (This is bein posted by Martin Arnold vias his folks email - hotamil are currently screwed - replace David Michael Arnold with Martin David Arnold) On the subject of Tarot cards and storytelling cards, one should check out the advice given in Come Ill Fat (a sourcebook for the Castle Falkenstein RPG which uses cards exclusively). Also on the Unofficial Castle Falkenstein Website there is an article by some clever so-and-so for using Tarot cards instead of playing cards. There was also a RPG called Psychosis which used Tarot cards, I've never seen it so I can't say what it's like. Nephilim as well has Tarot connotations, not in its game system but in the character types (they belong to the major Arcanna representing the various 'tribes' of Nephilim the characters can belong to. There is also an article on one of the Feng Shui (RPG) sites that explains how to create adventures using the Shadowfist ccg (Shadowfist and Feng Shui both share the same universe although they are mutually exclusive as games). Sorry about the vagueness but I shall endeavour to dig these articles up later. Using the I Ching was a good idea, I thought, as well. kudos to you! Perhaps this can be made to incorporate the d666, instead of tossing the 3 coins, to determine the hexagram. (for example odd=yin, even=yang, 111=moving yin, and 666=moving yang). What's next Numerology? (Hmmmn Yves, what's his Destiny Number?) This is somewhat stream of consciousness, but see what you think! If the Symphony is likened to 'music', then earth must be tuned to middle C. The demos 'below' it, with Hell on the bass clef (Lucifer's a baritone); and Heaven in the treble clef (the Angels - PC's - sing alto, but god in the higher heavens is soprano). Mankind therefore sings in the Tenor range, which can cross into wither clef (and has a clef all it's own for those versed in music theory - the 'B' clef with the central part of the >B< representing Middle C). this reflects his freewill and God given potential for choosing to be good or bad regardless. Perhaps also the above analogy reflects universal morality as well; Middle C striking a balance between the two extremes. This also leads on to pitch theory where the greatest distance between two pitches (excluding extended intervals such as thirteenths, ninths etc. - I'm not that clever) is an octave. Interestingly both notes in an octave are they same in name (although technically they are not the 'same', that would be a unison); I take this to indicate the relationship between a Choir and it's Fallen equivalent. On each side of Heaven and Hell, there are good and bad relationships between the individual choirs/bands, in much the same way that an individual note has 'good' and 'bad' relationships in terms of harmony, i.e. they can be in or out of key. Thus a choir that hares a bond with another choir might have the same relationship between a root note and the fifth in a key - two notes that work together. Conversely, a band that hates another band could have a relationship similar to a root note and a flattened fifth (the infamous 'devil in music' as it used to be known). Therefore could Heaven and Hell be scales in the Symphony. Furthermore, could those scales - sharing the same root note - be major (Heaven, lets say) and minor. I'll stick my neck out here (Harmony isn't the easiest subject I ever got into and I am a bass player!) and say that as far as I know the major scale and minor scale built on the same root note are more in common than any other scale. "I'll get my coat." On another tack, I've just gotten around to reading the writeup of Jamin the NPC Elohite of Wind (Neel Krishnaswami/ issue 836). His methods remind me of some of the thigns I've heard about Gurdjieff; in particular an incident concerning a seeker who visited him who happened to be a vegetarian and a non drinker. In order for Gurdjieff to open this fellow's eyes, he got him drunk and got him eating meat - in other word he systematically broke down this persons habits. I don't know if this is true, the story was recited as an example made by a similarly infamous 'guru' - Osho. He too, I think, has similar methodologies, although not a extreme I gather, but I digress. (Please don't pick me up on this!) I find Jamin's MO somewhat believable in this context, and he's a cool character - nice one. Marnie - climbing the ladder to God's Monkey. "Only the most serene and enlightened souls shall gain audience. Dude, I think we're in big trouble!" (Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 15:05 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Reincarnation >If votes count, I would prefer that Saints do NOT get reincarnated >in the sense of being reborn as babies, but rather that they >get vessels similar to an angel's. It may be that both ways should work, but that if Saints are given vessels like celestials are, then they're outside the Symphony, and create disturbance like a celestial, while if they're reincarnated, then they integrate themselves back into the Symphony and get the benefits of being human. >If you have Saints and Boddhisatvas in the same system, it should >be the Boddhisatvas that reincarnate, if anyone does, to avoid >being totally confusing in your labels. Agreed, but I think the current canon is exactly backwards on this -- the Boddhisatvas are the ones who stay to help in the lower Heavens, and the Saints are the sub-set of these who return to the corporeal. Or so I recall the write-up. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:35:28 EDT From: Shadow6596@aol.com Subject: IN> in nomine Hello i have just started to get interested in in nomine and i have a few questions i wuold like to ask you. Do all of the books in the revelations cycle contain missions? No one plays in nomine around where i live and i am hoping to start a group. What should i buy first? I am hoping to be a "game master" out here. Is in nomine as easy to play as Dungons&Dragons? Please e- mail me some answers. I am realy excited about in nomine but i cant start until i find out more about it. You can e-mail me at shadow6596@aol.com, thank you for your time. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:54:17 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> in nomine On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 Shadow6596@aol.com wrote: > Hello i have just started to get interested in in nomine and i have a > few questions i wuold like to ask you. Well, that's what this list is for. :) > Do all of the books in the revelations cycle contain missions? Yes, although some of them are better than others. I really liked "Demon Prince of Rock and Roll" from Night Music (where Furfur got his head handed to him by the local angels) and "No Dinero" from Heaven and Hell. There's one in The Marches as well, but I haven't run it and probably won't. > No one plays in nomine around where i live and i am hoping to start a > group. What should i buy first? I am hoping to be a "game master" out > here. If you're gonna GM, first you'll need the In Nomine rulebook (no kidding, right?). After that, I'd recommend either the Angel or Demon Player's Guide, depending on which side you plan on running. Eventually the Revelations cycle books would be useful (for the expanded Superior write-ups, if nothing else), but they aren't really *needed*, and can actually be difficult to use if you are running a non-canon game. Other good resources are the various In Nomine web sites out there, and this mailing list. > Is in nomine as easy to play as Dungons&Dragons? Please e-mail me some > answers. Yes and no. The dice mechanics are much easier than AD&D. Character creation can be more involved, but that all depends on your style of AD&D play and your style of In Nomine play. In terms of settings, they can be about the same (but then again I play Planescape, which deals with very similar questions of belief and morality--in fact, I have even considered an In Nomine/Planescape crossover), which can also be good or bad. There are definatly fewer charts in In Nomine, which I consider a plus. > I am realy excited about in nomine but i cant start until i find out > more about it. You can e-mail me at shadow6596@aol.com, thank > you for your time. Well, I hope this gets you started. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 18:17 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> in nomine [Shadow6596:] > Do all of the books in the revelations >cycle contain missions? There's at least one adventure in each cycle book -- that's one of the distinguishing characteristics of "cycle" books, as opposed to "core" books (which right now are the main book, the two Player's Guides, and the Liber Reliquarum -- the "relics" book). > What should i buy first? The main book (In Nomine) first, of course. There are three different covers, but the same contents in each: the softcover, the white hardcover, and the black hardcover. The two hardcovers may be hard to find, though my local store had one not long ago. Which one to buy depends on your budget (the hardcovers are $5 or $10 more expensive), and your taste in covers.... After that, what to buy depends on what you want to do. The two players' guides are pretty useful (even to the GM), since they clear up and expand on the basic character rules for celestial characters, as well as providing a lot of good background stuff. I personally find the Angelic Player's Guide (APG) somewhat flawed; the Infernal Player's Guide (IPG) is better, in my opinion. (But I wrote bits of the IPG, and my wife is the Line Editor starting with it and the relics book, so I'm a bit biased....) If you want an "instant background" including an adventure or two, then you probably want to pick up either Night Music (Revelations Cycle I) or the soon-to-be-out Fall of the Malakim (Revelations Cycle IV). Both contain a city (NM has Austin TX, FotM has Los Angeles), along with a lot of NPCs who live there, and a main adventure (which uses the NPCs along with your PC group). Night Music may also be worth picking up if you want to include human characters in your game -- the main rules give them only limited coverage, and there's a major rules expansion for them in NM. The other two cycle books (The Marches, Heaven and Hell) are mostly concerned with the two realms other than the physical world, which aren't a major focus of the game, supposedly. The best things in those books, in my opinion, are the expanded Superior writeups -- each cycle book includes several. Actually, the Superior writeups in all the cycle books so far have been pretty good. I recommend passing, at least for now, on The Marches and Heaven and Hell, unless you are either especially interested in the dream realm (The Marches) or the home of the celestials itself (Heaven and Hell). Both are useful for that, but you can do without them for a while until you decide if you need them. The other book that's out so far is the Liber Reliquarum, which is basically a "magic items" book, with an In Nomine slant to it. Don't take that as a bad review -- it's actually quite good (even the parts I didn't write...). But it's probably not crucial to have right away. Consider picking it up if you either want some neat plot hooks, or want some special rewards for PCs; it includes good stuff for both. > Is in nomine as easy to play as Dungons&Dragons? D&D is *easy*...? (Sorry... been a *long* while since I played that -- and D&D-bashing is something of a sport among gamers....) My opinion is that it's easier, at least as far as game mechanics go. Character creation takes a bit more work, and a lot of the complexity of the game is in the political background and what that does to the characters, rather than in the game mechanics. It's intended to be a fairly sophisticated game in that sense, but simple in the mechanics. (There are a few cumbersome mechanics, however....) Combat is probably simpler than D&D in most ways, but it won't play out the way you're probably used to -- there's a big variation in how easy it is to kill someone, and "death" doesn't mean exactly the same thing to celestials as it does to humans. In Nomine isn't really about combat, even though the setting is the war between Heaven and Hell -- you can get into it on occassion, but killing the other side (or your companions) isn't really where the game focuses. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:17:56 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Heartless Free Lilim >>>Do you have a ref for where it says that free lilim have no hearts?<<< Although it should have been mentioned in the IPG, since it's been an implicit assumption all along, it apparently was not. The earliest definite canonical reference I can find is in the Liber Reliquarum, p. 84 (in the description of False Hearts). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:32:18 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim In reply to: > >>>Do you have a ref for where it says that free lilim have no hearts?<<< > > Although it should have been mentioned in the IPG, since it's been an > implicit assumption all along, it apparently was not. The earliest definite > canonical reference I can find is in the Liber Reliquarum, p. 84 (in the > description of False Hearts). I'm going on memory here (always dangerous), but I seem to recall a mention of Free Lilim being heartless in the Limbo section of the APG. Other than that, the FAQ was the first place I saw they had no heart. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:17:58 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Superior politics At 09:19 AM 30/06/98 -0500, you wrote: >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> The archangels just have more hooks, /especially/ if you make them >> really good and just and wise and holy. Then their disagreements >> genuinely signify, because there is meaning and faith and belief >> between them. > >Someone, I forget who, once said, "True tragedy is not the >conflict of good with evil, but of good with good." > >Earl > >What about the Demon Princes being brothers in arms, united against the Heavenly Tyrant and His strong arm Host, what about the Unity of the downtrodden, the cursed, the damned. Heavenly politics are something along the lines of the New Republic, a lot of verbal contests, a lot of arguing, a lot of factionalizing, but no real violent backlashes. Hell's politics mirror the Empire, bickering, backstabbing, and on the spot executions for infractions. Demon Princes however are cool because you can be really far out evil with them, its like in Dungeon Keeper when you play the Dragon, Archangels are cool because you can be unearthly and spooky but still righteous and 'good' but then again lets not forget Gabriel from The Prophecy, every now and then even the most Holy get a little viscious. Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:32:32 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Ha-satanim, a new minor Band While reading the IPG, I noticed this statement: "Bands represent all the demons who (for whatever reason) possess similar abilities and similar personal symphonies. Hell is fond of survival of the fittest. While there are countless approaches to fitness, only seven are outstandingly successful - the seven major Bands in In Nomine..." (pg 22) This got me to thinking about the other kinds of Fallen Celestial that could exist. Here's the result of some of this brainstorming. Comments would be most welcome, since I plan to unleash these guys on my players when my campaign resumes. _______________________________________________________________________________ HA-SATANIM The Accusers Not every Seraph Falls for the exact same reasons. Some Fall for lying, others for disobedience to their Archangels. Some Fall from trying to rationalize their lies, attempting to play mind games with themselves about what is and is not true. These Fallen Seraphiom become the Ha-satanim. The Ha-satanim occupy an *interesting* position in Hell. Everybody wants to know if they are being lied to, but nobody wants others to know that they are lying. And the Ha-satanim know, and use that knowledge to prove that they are as fit to survive as anyone else. RESONANCE In a perverse manner the Ha-satanim resonate for truth, much like they once did as Seraphim. Unlike the Seraphim, the Ha-satanim see truth as relative. What is true to one individual may not be true to another. Whether or not what is believed is True is of no concern to them; all that matters is that the individual *believes* it to be true. As a result the Ha-satanim may, through an effort of will, invade the thoughts of a speaking individual and determine whether the individual believes their statement to be true. The soul of the speaker may be laid bare to the gaze of a Ha-satan, allowing the demon to percieve just what the person *really* thinks about what he is saying. DISSONANCE In their own peculiar way, the Ha-satanim are still Seraphim. They may not lie, without suffering Dissonance. But the mind of a Ha-satan is slippery and able to accept as true things that others believe true, whether or not they believe it themselves. Telling a lie gains the Ha-satan a note of dissonance. Telling someone their beliefs are true (or allowing the to believe they are true through the Ha-satan's statements), whether or not those beliefs are true, does not. MANNER AND APPEARANCE The Ha-satanim prefer to be smooth and stylish in the Corporeal realm. They dress and behave in a manner which is intended to reinforce in the minds of everyone who interacts with them that the demon is superior to them. This is important to the Ha-satanim, because (to their minds at least) if it is believed it is true. In Celestial form they strongly resemble their Balseraph cousins, but with a slightly amorphous look to them as they change to fit every belief that comes along. Other Bands are ambivilant about the Ha-satanim, especially since there are comparativly few of them to form opinions about. Typically they are tolerated, unless they begin to challenge the statements made by other demons. Then the Bands grow hostile... Oddly enough, the Balseraphs actually like their Ha-satanim cousins. At least as much as a Balseraph likes anyone. The Ha-satanim resonance is powerless against the resonance of the Balseraphs, because the Balseraph always believs his statements to be true. Unlike the Balseraphs, the Ha-satanim do not see themselves as stringed instruments. They think of themselves as chimes and bells, instruments which require a delecate hand to play properly. GAME MECHANICS The resonance of the Ha-satanim functions as a peculiar synthesis of the resonances of the Seraphim and the Elohim. They have the power to see into the souls of others by making eye contact, allowing them to learn if the target of their resonance believes he is lying. With good rolls, the Ha-satan may also determine what the individual really believes about the statement, and why. It is important to remember that the Ha-satan resonance has no connection to the Symphony. As a result, they cannot ever perceive the Truth. They may only perceive truth as it is understood by the target of their resonance. HA-SATANIM CHECK DIGIT RESULTS 1...You know whether or not the speaker thinks he is lying. 2...You know the above - and, if the speaker thinks he lied, which statement in particular he thinks is most false. 3...You know all of the above, and why the speaker chose to lie. 4...You know all of the above, and understand what the speaker feels about his decision to lie (shame, guilt, pride, etc) 5...You know all of the above, and what the speaker believes the truth to be. 6...You know all of the above, and what the speaker's most likely reaction will be if you tell him what he believes the truth to be. A Ha-satan also posesses two serious risks with his resonance. If he ever fails his resonance roll with a check die of 6, he must immediatly make a new resonance roll. The original subject of the resonance then recieves the appropriate amount of information about the last statement the Ha-satan made to him. In addition, if a Ha-satan ever successfully resonates a Seraph with a check die of 6, he gains no information at all. Instead, he makes temporary contact with the Seraph's connection to they Symphony and is blinded by it. The Ha-satan may not use his resonance again for a number of hours equal to the Seraph's Celestial Forces, and the Seraph becomes aware that there is a demon nearby. _______________________________________________________________________________ Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:18:25 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim >In reply to: > >> >>>Do you have a ref for where it says that free lilim have no hearts?<<< >> >> Although it should have been mentioned in the IPG, since it's been an >> implicit assumption all along, it apparently was not. The earliest definite >> canonical reference I can find is in the Liber Reliquarum, p. 84 (in the >> description of False Hearts). > >I'm going on memory here (always dangerous), but I seem to recall a >mention of Free Lilim being heartless in the Limbo section of the >APG. Other than that, the FAQ was the first place I saw they had no >heart. Well, considering that in order to have a Heart, a Superior needs to make one for you, that pretty much should settle it. By definition, Free Lilim have no Superiors, and no Superior is going to make a Heart for a Lilim or any other celestial not pledged to its service. In the Liberarum there's an entry for something called a "False Heart" and within that entry there's a notation of Asmodeus' position that if a Lilim wanted a Heart, it should bind itself to a Superior. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:47:43 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Ha-satanim, a new minor Band Cool new minor band, I think my player is about to get confused! [what! what is that? I don't recognize that!] *eGMg* tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 06:14:53 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim At 23:18 30/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > Well, considering that in order to have a Heart, a Superior needs to make >one for you, that pretty much should settle it. By definition, Free Lilim >have no Superiors, and no Superior is going to make a Heart for a Lilim or >any other celestial not pledged to its service. I assume that Lilith could, if the lilim didn't mind paying? What's a couple more years of service in return for not having to go to limbo every time you lose a vessel and having a way to get 'home' to Hell in a hurry if you are out there on your own and things get a bit pear-shaped. Thanks everyone for the reference. I missed that comment in the LR. jo jhart@btinternet.com http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ - --- "When ideas fail, words come in very handy." Goethe (1749-1832) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:33:21 -0700 (MST) From: "HAH!wouldn't_you_like.to.know" Subject: IN> character creation Alright, I've combed the main In Nomine book, and the Angelic and Infernal players guides, and I still have a few questions. First of all, under Attunements on page 36 of In Nomine, it says that there are two kinds of attunements: those granted automatically by your superior, based on the Chior or Band you belong to; and Servitor Attunements granted by a superior to any celestial of any choir or band. But, in the back of the book, on page 196 in the Supporting Cast section, Sabrina has two Band Attunements from two different Princes. She is listed as having the Lilim of Gluttony, and the Lilim of Lust. Now, if this is normally possible, and an attunement belonging to another Band under your superior costs 5 (provided of course you can use it with your resonance), and Servitor Attunements cost 10, how much do Band attunements from other princes cost? And does your prince get upset because you have an attunement to another Prince? Would appreciate an answer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Quote of the Week : "If you drink, don't park. Accidents cause people" Unknown ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 06:28:21 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim At 23:18 30/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > By definition, Free Lilim >have no Superiors, and no Superior is going to make a Heart for a Lilim or >any other celestial not pledged to its service. On second thoughts, if I were Asmodeus I would _definitely_ have a standing offer to make hearts for any demon who was going to be spending time on earth without one! >:-) No cost ... other than of course I'd hold the hearts for safe-keeping. (Now, if a Djinn attunes to a heart they can track the demon -- but if they attune to the demon, can they go to hell and track the heart?) jo (No more posts on this, fear not ;) ) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #842 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.