From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 1 21:19:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27293 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:19:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15143 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:17:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:17:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199807020217.VAA15143@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #843 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 843 In this digest: IN> Heartless Free Lilim Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> in nomine IN> [Humor] Song Lyrics Re: IN> Geas Question Re: IN> character creation IN> Human Soul hits Re: IN> Human Soul hits Re: IN> [Humor] Song Lyrics IN> Shadow6596@aol.com Re: IN> New Superior! (may be very long!) Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim Re: IN> character creation Re: IN> Human Soul hits Re: IN> character creation Re: IN> Geas Question Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim Re: IN> Human Soul hits Re: IN> character creation Re: IN> character creation Re: IN> Human Soul hits Re: IN> Human Soul hits Re: IN> Human Soul hits IN> Who says the law has no sense of humor? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 02:59:13 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Heartless Free Lilim >>>I assume that Lilith could, if the lilim didn't mind paying?<<< Paying a LOT, since Lilith would be going directly againt Asmodeus... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:03:23 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >Supporting Christianity wouldn't necessarily require Dominic to lie - it > >wouldn't have to say "Jesus is the son of God" or anything else. Dommie > >would just have to tell its underlings that it thinks Christanity is a > >good idea that should be supported. > > I dunno -- I just can't see it. First off, he'd have to be making > these evasions for two thousand years without getting called on it. > Second of all, what he'd actually be doing is telling his angels to > convince humans to worship some random human as the Lord Himself; > given the way Dominic has been presented, it seems very unlikely > that this is a contradiction he could reconcile to his own > satisfaction. So? It's a Seraph, it's used to evasions. ;) Seriously, Dominic wouldn't have to lie. It could just say "Christianity seems like a good idea. Promote it." It, like most of the AA:s, is quite pragmatic, IMO - if promoting Christianity creates a better world (in Dommie's opinion), why not do it? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:55:17 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> in nomine Shadow6596@aol.com wrote: > > Hello i have just started to get interested in in nomine and i have a >few questions i wuold like to ask you. > >Do all of the books in the revelations cycle contain missions? Yes, each book in the revelations cycle contains a good-sized adventure. They vary a lot in quality, though, so you should flip through the book at the local game store. >No one plays in nomine around where i live and i am hoping to start a >group. What should i buy first? I am hoping to be a "game master" out here. Obviously, you need the main rulebook. The Infernal Player's Guide is very good, and worth buying, but the Angelic Player's Guide is much less interesting. >Is in nomine as easy to play as Dungons&Dragons? Sort of. The main rulebook is extremely poorly organized, and it can be very hard to find the reference you need. Further, the mechanics themselves are so poorly balanced that it will take close GM attention to keep players from /accidentally/ creating wildly overpowered or underpowered PCs. D&D definitely wins in this regard. On the up side, the setting is very good -- it is familiar enough that it is easy to create characters and come up with adventures, while being exotic and unusual enough to grab your imagination. I like it a lot more than any of TSR's settings, which I find either too bland (Forgotten Realms) or too weird (Dark Sun) for my tastes. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:02:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> [Humor] Song Lyrics Song Lyrics - And background guitar played by me on my old beat up Kent Acoustic. FIFTY WAYS TO MURDER FURFUR [To, yes, Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover by Simon and Garfunkel] The problem is all inside of Hell, he said to me The answer is easy if you take it logically I'd like to help you do him in quietly There must be fifty ways to murder Furfur He said, it's really only natural to intrude For the more I hope my meaning won't be lost on this construe So I repeat myself, at the risk of being cruel There must be fifty ways to murder Furfur Chorus: Just go ahead and kill, Lil, get ready to slay, Andre Don't need to be maul, Baal, just listen to me Sell his soul, Kobal, don't need to console Just follow the prey, Asmodei, and get yourself free (repeats 2x) He said it grieves me so to see you in such pain You could end it quickly if you just simply used your brain I said, I appreciate that, then would you please explain about the fifty ways He said, why don't you go and sleep on it tonight And I believe, in the morning, you'll begin to see the light And then he gave me a gun and I realized he probably was right There must be fifty ways to murder Furfur, fifty ways to murder Furfur *Okay, I couldn't resist. I just couldn't. - - Em, Funny Balseraph! ICQ Number: 14849494 Current Quote: Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son." Abe said, "Man you must be puttin me on." God said, "No", Abe said "What?" God said, "You can do what you wanna but the next time you see me comin' you better run." Well Abe said, "Where d'you want this killin done?" God said, "Out on Highway 61." - Bob Dylan, "Highway 61" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:11:08 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Geas Question Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > >[Free lilim have no hearts] > > Yep, there in the FAQ, as well as in Liber Reliquarium, under False >Hearts, page 84. "Asmodeus' decree is that if a Lilim wants a Heart, she >can serve a Prince like any other Demon." > > Makes it damn hard for a Free to make her way back to the Guildhall >from Earth, though. Wrote up a meager little artifact to help them out, >that's tenatively named a "beacon." Lets the holder, Ascend consciously, >and consciously only, to whatever point on the Celestial Plane the Beacon >was created attuned to, and he has to make a Will roll to ascend elsewhere. >Requires a point of Essence, and once activated, remains activated until >it's used. Ascending holding a Beacon whose endpoint you don't know can >be...inconvenient. I am of the opinion that if a Free Lilim wants to travel between Hell and Earth, she can offer a favor to a Seneschal at a Tether to show her the way down. IMO nearly everything that an ordinary demon takes for granted, a Free Lilim ought to have to pay for. And pay for. And pay for some more. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:16:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: IN> character creation > Now, if this is normally possible, and an attunement belonging to > another Band under your superior costs 5 (provided of course you can use > it with your resonance), and Servitor Attunements cost 10, how much do > Band attunements from other princes cost? And does your prince get upset > because you have an attunement to another Prince? Well, I think right off, this is _not_ normally possible. I believe it to be non-canon to receive an attunment from a Superior who is not your own as a starting character. In-game, attunements from other Superiors is a role-playing event, and not an expenditure of character points. In the on-line errata (http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata), it says that Sabrina (the Supporting Cast character you referenced) is actually not a balanced starting character, but it doesn't say anything about the Lilim of Gluttony attunement, so I'm not sure on the official canon position. As I understand it, though, beginning the game with an attunement from another Superior is a purely GM call. As for the matter of whether or not your Superior would be pissed about receiving the attunement from another Superior, it mostly has to deal with those two Superiors' relations with each other. My general feeling is that Demon Princes are a lot more wary of the situation than Archangels are. :) HTH, - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:30:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: IN> Human Soul hits While preparing for an upcoming game, I ran across something disturbing and just wanted to verify I'm reading the rules correctly. I'm assuming first off that the rules for damage apply to all beings, not just Celestials, i.e., humans follow the same rules for Ethereal and Celestial damage, right? Now, normally, humans wouldn't be concerned about Soul hits due their absence of a Celestial form and their corresponding immunity to Celestial attack. What about Beleth's Servitor Attunement Terror, which causes Soul hits to the target equal to the Celestial Forces of the attacker times the check digit of the roll? Let's take your average, garden-variety human with 1 Celestial Force and a Will of 4, making 4 Soul hits. Now lets take a Servitor of Beleth with 4 Celestial Forces and have it inflict Terror on said human. If the human fails his Will roll, is he now taking 4-24 Soul hits when he only has 4 to begin with? When all is said and done, would this not result in massive amounts of Force loss/Discord/Extreme Badness for the human? If a human is stripped of all Forces is his soul destroyed? Is any of this kosher? As an aside, what happens to someone who takes Soul hits who has no Celestial Forces (and therefore no Soul hits in the first place)? This is starting to confuse me... :) Thanks for any help, - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 15:37:03 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Human Soul hits At 10:30 01/07/98 -0400, you wrote: > What about Beleth's Servitor >Attunement Terror, which causes Soul hits to the target equal to the >Celestial Forces of the attacker times the check digit of the roll? I'd ignore what the book says and just say that it does mind hits instead. If a mortal loses all of their mind hits they just fall unconscious. jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 11:40:49 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> [Humor] Song Lyrics - - Em, Funny Balseraph! wrote: > Song Lyrics - > > And background guitar played by me on my old beat up Kent Acoustic. > > FIFTY WAYS TO MURDER FURFUR > [To, yes, Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover by Simon and Garfunkel] > [SNIP!] > *Okay, I couldn't resist. I just couldn't. That's okay, just make sure it does happen again! Enjoyed it much, thanks Em! tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:45:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Shadow6596@aol.com - ---Shadow6596@aol.com wrote: > > Hello i have just started to get interested in in nomine and i have a > few questions i wuold like to ask you. Do all of the books in the revelations > cycle contain missions? Yes, some are better than others, though. I have all the books, but here are the ones I like... The core book (can't play without it) Night Music (EXCELLENT sourcebook) Liber Reliquarum (book of artifacts) Heaven and Hell The Angelic Player's Guide and Infernal Player's Guide are cool, but not necessary. The Marches, while it has an excellent writeup of Gabriel, is not too exciting.. In July, Fall of the Malakim is coming out, and it looks GREAT! Hope this helps, and if you like, check out my web page, The Reliquary (shameless plug, I know...) http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/46/ Talk to you later! Graveyard Greg, going to Origins '98! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> New Superior! (may be very long!) - ---IceHeart EvenFall wrote: > > At 09:36 AM 6/30/98 -0700, you wrote: > > >DISSONANCE > > > >It is dissonant for Servitors of Fury to restrain their rage. If > >anything provokes them, they must strike out at the source. Any and > >all slights must be retaliated immediately! > > Lifespan, 2 days? Maybe three. starting demons who strike out at anyone > who pisses them off won't live to be strong demons > Yeah, but that's what happens when you've got a bad temper...Maybe demons that start off work for a slightly more powerful demon...almost like a big brother? :) > > Balseraphs > > Balseraphs are foavored in Tiamat's eyes (for obvious > >reasons)--these servitors of Fury start off with the Numinous Corpus > >of Acid at a level equal to their Corporeal Forces at _no_ Essence cost. > > They're so powerful to make up for the fact that they're gonna get killed > rather quickly? > :) Two words: Breath Weapon! > > Djinn > > A Djinn of Fury may use his resonance to instill the Berserk Discord > >on a victim > > If the victim ever succeeds with a successful Will roll at any time, > >the Djinn will suffer the Berserk Discord instead, for a number of > >hours equal to his Ethereal Forces. > Does the discord then snap back to the mortal or does it dissipate? And > wouldn't this work better possibly if it could only be directed at someone > the Djin was attuned to? > Hmmmm....good idea! How's this? Djinn A Djinn of Fury may use his resonance to instill the Berserk Discord on a victim he is already attuned to, at a level equal to the Djinn's Ethereal Forces. A successful resonance roll means the victim suffers the effects of the Discord until either the Djinn removes it, or the victim makes a successful Will roll. If the victim ever succeeds with a successful Will roll at any time, the Djinn will suffer the Berserk Discord instead, for a number of hours equal to his Ethereal Forces. The discord then dissipates afetr the duration expires. > > Calabim > > Calabim of Fury enjoy being in service to Tiamat. They are > >considered to always succeed in their resonance roll (still roll for > >intervention), but if the target resists, the Calabite must roll as > >normal to use his resonance on a different target. If the Calabite > >chooses to absorb the failed roll instead, he gets _triple_ the > >dissonance! > > Ok, so these guys have an even SHORTER life span ;) Yep...I tried to balance it out...poor Calabim! :) > > > Habbalah > > A Habbalite of Fury may brand a victim with the Diabolic Essence of > >Tiamat's Fury. Anyone who sees the victim must make a Will roll or > >lash out at him for a number of times equal to the demon's Corporeal > >Forces. The duration of the Brand lasts for a number of days equal to > >the check digit. > > I like this one =) > Me too! :) > > Uncontrolled Rage > > For 1 Essence, this attunement allows the demon to go into a > >terrible rage, adding his Will to his Strength. While under the > >influence of this attunement (which is as long as the demon wishes, > >unless he has the Angry, Berserk, or Murderous Discords, then it is at > >a duration of minutes equal to the Discord's level), the demon cannot > >act in a calm or rational manner, and will be immune to any celestial > >effects that can alter his mental state (such as the Song of Harmony) > >and many resoance effects (like possesion attempts). > > Immune seems harsh but maybe that's me. I try to err on the side of caution. > :) Heh heh heh > > Baron of Primal Rage > > The demon can ignite an entire area in a radius of feet equal to 5 > >times the Corporeal Forces of the demon, even if the material is > >normally non-combustible! No damage is taken during the first round, > >doing 1d of damage to everyone every round after that. The flames can > >be extinguished by the user at will. > > This one, and the ones that are mostly like belial's kinda bother me. > Admittedly there is a metaphorical link between rage and heat, I don't > think that they should be so closely linked. I'd be more likely to use > powers that incited people to rage. A demon Incinerating someone doesn't go > as far to promote the word Fury as starting a Riot does. > I really had trouble with those darn Distinctions. I also tried to rationalize it as she was a dragon, and I think of dragons associated with Fire... > >BASIC RITES > > Go into a fit of anger in which you inflict a lot of collateral > >damage or hurt someone very badly > > Get furious at someone who does something nice to you (no good deed > >goes unpunished...) > > > Incite a group of 10 or more to violence (+2) > > These are more the style that I'd try to fit the attunements/distinctions > with rather than Fire. > > >CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 1 > > Invocation Modifiers > > +1 Anyone in a state of anger > > +2 A Primal Scream of rage > > +3 Someone mentally or physically abusing someone out of anger > > +4 An object used to hurt someone out of anger > > +5 A rioting mob > > +6 A bloodbath being done out of rage > > *shrug* I'd prolly make her invocation like, -2. She WAS a creature of the > Marches for an awefully long time, seems to me that she'd not want to leave > them often to go to the Corporeal Realm. > Hmmmmmmmm...I LIKE IT! CHANCE OF INVOCATION: -2 (Tiamat does NOT like to go to the Corporeal realm!) Thanks Iceheart! Any ideas for those distinctions? Graveyard Greg, who's going to Origins '98! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:27:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim At 8:17 PM -0400 6/30/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Do you have a ref for where it says that free lilim have no hearts?<<< > >Although it should have been mentioned in the IPG, since it's been an >implicit assumption all along, it apparently was not. And blest and bedamned if I can figure out why I didn't think of it. Actually, where it *should* be is in the main book. I'll find some place to stick errata in, I will. There. Main book. I've sent this to the errata coordinator now. At 2:59 AM -0400 7/1/98, David Edelstein wrote: [Jo writes] >>>>I assume that Lilith could, if the lilim didn't mind paying?<<< > >Paying a LOT, since Lilith would be going directly againt Asmodeus... Hm. I bet she could sweeten the deal by offering him first dibs on the Geas the Lilim paid for that Heart... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:42:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> character creation At 10:33 PM -0700 6/30/98, HAH!wouldn't_you_like.to.know wrote: > But, in the back of the book, on page 196 in the Supporting Cast >section, Sabrina has two Band Attunements from two different Princes. She >is listed as having the Lilim of Gluttony, and the Lilim of Lust. She's a Lilim. (Check the errata on this?) Lilim, especially the Free or those who were Free once, pick up attunements all over the place. (And she's no starting character, really.) > Now, if this is normally possible, and an attunement belonging to >another Band under your superior costs 5 (provided of course you can use >it with your resonance), and Servitor Attunements cost 10, how much do >Band attunements from other princes cost? Okay, if you're going to allow this at all (and it is *DEFINITELY* a GM call), how it works is you can have the Choir/Band attunement from someone other than your Superior *for your own Choir/Band only*. (This is fuzzy canon. At one point, pre-me-LE, there was a suggestion that only Lilim and Creationers got to do this. If you want to go totally out of canon, let anybody get anything you feel like, as a GM, but it does start blurring the Choirs/Bands' abilities a bit.) Certainly only Free Lilim and Creationers are likely to be in positions where they *could* have received such a thing previous to starting play. >And does your prince get upset >because you have an attunement to another Prince? If he didn't approve your getting it, then he'll probably ask you very sternly where it came from. And a stern Demon Prince will want a very good explanation for how you have this without having turned traitor against *his* Word. IOW, yes. They tend to get upset. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:55:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Human Soul hits At 10:30 AM -0400 7/1/98, Sheep Boy wrote: >As an aside, what happens to someone who takes Soul hits who has no >Celestial Forces (and therefore no Soul hits in the first place)? Nothing. They can't go celestial (and may not dream, hmmmm.... Or may just *not take damage* if in the Marches and unprotected by their bodies from nasty ol' ethereals and celestials initiating celestial combat (as in _The Marches_, p. 82). >>I'm assuming first off that the rules for damage apply to all beings, not >just Celestials, i.e., humans follow the same rules for Ethereal and >Celestial damage, right? Yah. >Now, normally, humans wouldn't be concerned >about Soul hits due their absence of a Celestial form and their >corresponding immunity to Celestial attack. What about Beleth's Servitor >Attunement Terror, which causes Soul hits to the target equal to the >Celestial Forces of the attacker times the check digit of the roll? But Soul hits cannot be reduced below 1, so the person will never lose a Force from it (unless they can be targeted in other ways; Servitors of Asmodeus using Humanity try not to tick off Servitors of Nightmares *too* much (or make sure they're sufficiently afraid not to mess), lest they get kind of damamged...). (The description says, "won't reduce Soul below 1" -- it means Soul Hits, just like Body means Body Hits and Mind means Mind Hits.) If the human >fails his Will roll, is he now taking 4-24 Soul hits when he only has 4 to >begin with? He takes 3 Soul hits and stops. If a human >is stripped of all Forces is his soul destroyed? Yup. >Is any of this kosher? Um... Em, are souls kosher? (And does Haagenti care?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:13:01 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> character creation On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Sheep Boy wrote: [snip] > As for the matter of whether or not your Superior would be pissed about > receiving the attunement from another Superior, it mostly has to deal with > those two Superiors' relations with each other. My general feeling is > that Demon Princes are a lot more wary of the situation than Archangels > are. :) unless you're a Servitor of Judgment suddenly awarded the Servitor Attunement of Creation or Fire, or perhaps your Superior is Michael and you show up with the Servitor Attunement of Flowers one day. in other words, i think Archangels are just as leery of servitors accepting Attunements from Superiors to whom they are hostile. IMHON -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 17:37 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Geas Question >I am of the opinion that if a Free Lilim wants to travel between >Hell and Earth, she can offer a favor to a Seneschal at a Tether >to show her the way down. That's pretty much the way we do it. They can either use a Tether, or use the "following" trick. Either way, they probably have to pay someone.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 17:44 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim >I assume that Lilith could, if the lilim didn't mind paying? Very likely. But the problem with demonic Hearts is that you don't want to leave them lying around, where other people can get their hands on them -- at the very least, it's painful if someone else picks yours up. So you not only have to get one made, but you have to arrange for safe storage. And safety is hard to come by in Hell -- who are you going to trust with it? Probably have to be Lilith again. And she doesn't have a lot of room to store things down in Hell. (You can also keep them in the Marches, if they're made there, since Beleth's and Blandine's Servitors Hearts are there, but it's nearly as chancy a place as Hell to leave something important.) > What's a >couple more years of service in return for not having to go to limbo every >time you lose a vessel Limbo may be worth some time, to avoid having to pay for another vessel - -- especially if you're on the run from someone. > and having a way to get 'home' to Hell in a hurry if >you are out there on your own and things get a bit pear-shaped. At one point, Elizabeth was suggesting Free Lilim might also be able to go to the gates of Hell (where all the human souls go), though that never made it into canon. And then they have to push their way through the throngs to get in. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 17:47 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim >On second thoughts, if I were Asmodeus I would _definitely_ have a standing >offer to make hearts for any demon who was going to be spending time on >earth without one! >:-) No cost ... other than of course I'd hold the >hearts for safe-keeping. Ah, but there are implications that DPs can do nasty things to a demon, if they've got access to the Heart. > (Now, if a Djinn attunes to a heart they can track >the demon -- but if they attune to the demon, can they go to hell and track >the heart?) I wouldn't think so. The Heart is a piece of the demon, and hence can lead you to the whole demon. But attuning to the demon will only point you at him. Well... *maybe* if you took a really big penalty, you could do it -- there is something about tracking pieces of the attuned object for the Cherub/Djinn resonance. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 18:17 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Human Soul hits >I'm assuming first off that the rules for damage apply to all beings, not >just Celestials, i.e., humans follow the same rules for Ethereal and >Celestial damage, right? Right. > What about Beleth's Servitor >Attunement Terror, which causes Soul hits to the target equal to the >Celestial Forces of the attacker times the check digit of the roll? Those abilities that can cause soul hits to someone in a vessel are supposed to be limited to not take the last soul hit (i.e., the one that would remove a Force). This may need errata (I don't have my books here). >As an aside, what happens to someone who takes Soul hits who has no >Celestial Forces (and therefore no Soul hits in the first place)? I believe it says somewhere in the main book that only those people with Celestial Forces are vulnerable to celestial damage. It may be in the section on Remnants, or in the celestial combat section. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 18:27 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> character creation > But, in the back of the book, on page 196 in the Supporting Cast >section, Sabrina has two Band Attunements from two different Princes. She >is listed as having the Lilim of Gluttony, and the Lilim of Lust. Sabrina is a little buggy -- as I recall, she's not quite point-balanced, either.... I believe the semi-official explanation is that Sabrina was a Free Lilim who recently bound to Haagenti. Free Lilim tend to collect the Lilim attunements of various DPs, so it's not surprising that she might have someone else's in this case. Free Lilim and Servitors of Creation are the most likely characters to have cross-Superior attunements. A strict GM wouldn't allow Free Lilim to start with any attunements (and require her to start with 9 Geas/3s to Lilith), but there's not much harm in it as long as the GM is careful. Ditto with Servitors of Creation -- they technically shouldn't have anything but Creation attunements, but most of them have been around enough to have maybe earned something (probably a Choir attunement) from their "in service to" Superior. > Now, if this is normally possible, and an attunement belonging to >another Band under your superior costs 5 (provided of course you can use >it with your resonance), and Servitor Attunements cost 10, how much do >Band attunements from other princes cost? Nominally 5 points, I think, *if* you can convince the GM to let you have them. > And does your prince get upset >because you have an attunement to another Prince? They can, yes. There's some stuff I put into "Switching Superiors" in the IPG that discusses this a bit. (I don't feel like typing it here.) The short answer is that you can sometimes get away with it, and occassionally the DP even likes it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 18:28 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> character creation > As I understand it, though, beginning the game with an >attunement from another Superior is a purely GM call. I think that's about right. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:41:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: IN> Human Soul hits On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > Those abilities that can cause soul hits to someone in a vessel are > supposed to be limited to not take the last soul hit (i.e., the one that > would remove a Force). This may need errata (I don't have my books here). Hate to beat a horse to death, but doesn't this swing the power level of those abilities to the other extreme, making them nigh-useless against humans? If the ability to strip a force is removed, and humans are not susceptible to "normal" Celestial attack, then they just sit around and regenerate the lost Soul hits or stay at 1 Soul hit forever, if you keep Terrorizing him. I don't mean to harp, but I just wanted to get this straightened out, and I loved the idea of Terrorizing someone into incapacitation, basically permanently. Just seemed a bit high-powered for a starting character. :) > >As an aside, what happens to someone who takes Soul hits who has no > >Celestial Forces (and therefore no Soul hits in the first place)? > > I believe it says somewhere in the main book that only those people with > Celestial Forces are vulnerable to celestial damage. It may be in the > section on Remnants, or in the celestial combat section. You're right, of course. That would only make sense. It _is_ under the Celestial combat section in the main book, if anyone's interested. Also, I was thinking about what Jo said about making Terror inflict Mind hits instead of Soul. This makes a nice fix, especially since repeated use would really rack up the Ethereal Discord on the target (with a week or so in between attacks for healing, though). The only downside that comes to mind is that Jo said that someone brought to 0 Mind hits falls unconscious, but the victim of Terror must already be asleep. Not so bad, but in the main book it also says that a person brought to 0 Mind hits is ejected from the Ethereal Realm, and this seems a bit counterproductive to Beleth's ends since the dreamer was already on the Nightmare side of the Marches. Just a couple thoughts. Thanks for the input, everyone, - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:06:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Human Soul hits At 8:41 PM -0400 7/1/98, Sheep Boy wrote: >On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > >> Those abilities that can cause soul hits to someone in a vessel are >> supposed to be limited to not take the last soul hit (i.e., the one that >> would remove a Force). This may need errata (I don't have my books here). > >Hate to beat a horse to death, but doesn't this swing the power level of >those abilities to the other extreme, making them nigh-useless against >humans? It is already in the books, and Yes. >I don't mean to harp, but I just wanted to get this straightened out, and >I loved the idea of Terrorizing someone into incapacitation, basically >permanently. Just seemed a bit high-powered for a starting character. :) Well, there are probably psychological and emotional effects that will be felt... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:53:34 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Human Soul hits Sheep Boy wrote: > Hate to beat a horse to death, but doesn't this swing the power level of > those abilities to the other extreme, making them nigh-useless against > humans? If the ability to strip a force is removed, and humans are > not susceptible to "normal" Celestial attack, then they just sit around > and regenerate the lost Soul hits or stay at 1 Soul hit forever, if you > keep Terrorizing him. In my house rules, abilities which can do Soul hits against Corporeal forms are treated as follows: Record the number of Soul hits done. When 0, make a note then start again. This doesn't actually cause a loss of Forces, but I rule that if a Celestial who has taken such damage abandons their Corporeal Form, then their Forces are suddenly free and they instantly lose the number of Forces indicated by my notes. If they heal their Soul hits while in their Vessel, nothing more happens to them. For humans, it's slightly different. When their Soul hits reach zero, make a note that a force has been subtracted. Humans don't actually lose a force, but they are so weakened spiritually that they psychologically force themselves to act as if they have. Therefore a human could be terrorised into catatonia ('no' Corporeal Forces left), their mind could shut down (no ethereal Forces) or they could lose all will and grasp of the outside world (no celestial forces). Note that these don't effect their actual abilities, just their perceived ones. If they can be protected from the source of damage long enough they will heal the damage and suffer no additional side effects. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 22:02:49 -0000 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Who says the law has no sense of humor? For those GMs out there who enjoy cruel surprises, try this one for size: Start with your average team of indeterminate celestials. No, it doesn't matter if they're angels or demons. That's why this setup should work so frighteningly well. They're trotting along, see an opportunity for some useful freebie, and go for it. It doesn't matter what, so long as it's something that they'd be interested in; on-the-sly mobile phone service, valet parking, etc. As GM, you know your players. Throw them whatever you think they'd be interested in. And even angels will go for under-the-table guns if they have demons they want to shoot, but no roles to allow background checks. Be only as fair as you have to be; some resonances and attunements will detect something amiss. This gag won't work unless they fall for it in some fashion or another. Then suddenly, either immediately or after they've put it out of their minds, it goes sour. The police come pouring in all entrances and take whomever they can into custody. Yes, they walked into a 'sting' operation. Happens to the best of them. It may be on the level, or the police may have screwed up somewhere. It's after the sting is spring that the fun *really* begins. After a little interrogation, some of the officers involved will want to let them go, and some of the others don't see why the first group has grown soft so fast. And in the background, there will be hints of two celestials growing into a conflict of some sort. WHAT'S=GOING=ON?======= This is an age-old battle between two rather old Word-bound celestials. They've been at this for a long time, they sometimes work together because their Words mesh so nicely, and now that celestials have fallen into one of their traps, they're at odds whether to let them go, or to "prosecute to the fullest extent of the law." (And they're both very fond of that phrase). Thyronias, who often uses the name "Theron" or "Tyrone" when Corporeal, is a Mercurian of Dominic. He furthered the cause of Judgement, and made a name for himself in Dominic's ranks, by bringing criminals to justice by using their own greed and vanity against them. In other words, the classic sting operation. While Seraphim can't always bear to hear him work, they can't deny his record of success. He originally petitioned for the phrase "Crime Doesn't Pay," but after a certain amount of lecturing from Dominic and others of the Seraphim Council who thought that sounded too familiar, he accepted the word of The Folly of Crime. The other player in this little drama is Gryphast, a Balseraph of Kobal, who understands that getting otherwise good people to laugh at the gullibility of others helps not only to contaminate them, but give them a false sense of pride at thinking they'll never be snookered in the same way, which hurts them worse when finally they *are*. Gryphast is the Demon of Really Dumb Criminals. (And I quote. Don't forget the 'Really.' Someone else had the word of Dumb Criminals, but now he works for Gryphast. As a bootblack.) And much as the two of them dislike each other, their words mesh beautifully and they know it. Thyronias has the support of Dominic (if not all of his trust) in this affair because criminals are brought to justice. Kobal is pleased with Gryphast's work in this affair because criminals are brought to ridicule and public humiliation for being gullible. They rarely work directly together because they can't stand each other, but their servants (almost all of them police of some sort or another) are almost completely united in spirit: creating hoaxes to play on most criminals' low wills to bring them to justice. Whether it's sending notifications to deadbeat dads that they've won Superbowl tickets, or valet parking at the courthouse to trap drunk drivers, they enjoy what they do because a) it works, and b) they get a good laugh from it. When celestials get trapped in it, though, that's another matter. Naturally Thyroniel will try to help out angels with commuted sentences and the like (though he will want to know why they were breaking the law, and may report it to Dominic), as Gryphast will try to help diabolicals who wandered into the wrong place at the right time (though he will take the time to have a good laugh from it). That's when things between the two get interesting. Activity between the two factions will start to heat up. Ultimately, it could turn into just an innocent scare, or it could turn into a bizarre sort of bloodbath between camps. And whatever happens, the celestial PCs will be caught smack dab in the middle of it, having to fight their ways out, or duck their heads and weather the storm. =VARIATIONS============= Wordbound as Thyronias may be, he's still working with a demon, and Dominic considers him a fairly high-visibility target. He'll send triads to watch him, come by more often to see how he's doing, etc. What this means to any demons who fall for this is that there will be extra angels dropping by sometimes, and they gotta lay low. Gryphast doesn't have it much easier. Asmodeus will occasionally catch wind of him working with an angel, and will send demons around to gather evidence. Even Asmodeus would laugh if Gryphast managed to slip up and get caught, especially on some stupid mistake. What this means to any angels who fall for this is that there will be extra demons dropping by sometimes, and they gotta lay low. Though come to think of it... Dominic? Asmodeus? Hell, send 'em both in and watch everybody duck! If there are enough of both factions there, the whole situation could melt down in a firestorm of bullets and Songs. Whoever it is that gets caught in the middle, be sure to show them a hot time... - --David http://home.bluecrab.org/~dwood "Next week we'll be showing you how to pick up an architect, how to pull a prime minister, and how to have fun with a wholesale poulterer. But now the men of the Derbyshire Light Infantry entertain us with a precision display of bad temper." -Monty Python, episode 22 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #843 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.