From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jul 4 07:40:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01115 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 07:40:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id HAA29850 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 07:46:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 07:46:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199807041246.HAA29850@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #845 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, July 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 845 In this digest: IN> Kronos... (Re: Jordi, most dissonant of Archangels IN> Heartless Free Lilim IN> Balseraph test. IN> IN: Soul hits again (yeah I know), Grigori murders, books, and stuff (longish!) IN> Off-topic: Israel and Palestine Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim IN> Heartstrings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:42:18 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Kronos... (Re: Jordi, most dissonant of Archangels >>>IIRC, he was made into a Balseraph, though<<< You recall incorrectly. He commonly portrays himself as a Balseraph, and most folks (on both sides) believe he is a Balseraph...but he isn't. >>>I can't cite the page, because my only copy belongs to someone else, but it's in the description of the Balseraph of Fate attunement, where it says that Balseraph Seraphim can't use their resonance full stop.<<< Nope. Says no such thing. You're probably misremembering some errata that sought to clarify the problem of Balseraph of Fate with the Seraphim resonance. >>>I am aware that this has been either errataed somewhat or been slated for errata, but this much holds: a Balseraph Seraph can't read something he knows to be true, and then decide it isn't true<<< Why not? >>>(obviously, I'm assuming it is true, and there is no evidence to the contrary) without using the Balseraph resonance in a dissonant manner, thus preventing him from using the Balseraph resonance. They are, after all, lying to themselves.<<< They lie to themselves quite well when they want to. See the examples of a Balseraph's expanded use of resonance in the IPG. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:46:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Heartless Free Lilim >>>But any Heart must be made by a Superior, so, in theory, any Superior could choose to make a Heart that could be taken to the Marches, or make one there.<<< Well, as always, you can let a Superior do anything you want a Superior to be able to do....but normally, Hearts shouldn't be able to be removed from the celestial plane. If Outcasts and Renegades could take their Hearts and hide them in the Marches, it would change a lot of previous assumptions... >>>Or are you saying that the Towers, being Tethers to the celestial, make them special cases, and thus Dreams and Nightmare Servitors couldn't actually take their Hearts into the Marches proper?<<< That would be my interpretation, yes. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 15:57:23 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: IN> Balseraph test. (I felt the need to do a bit of fluff a while back, and once I started it, I felt I had to finish it.) Infiltrating the Secret Police, or Test Your (Bal)Seraph Quotient. This test has been devised over several months by an eminent student of Celestial Psychology. It is designed to uncover those among you with Seraphic or Balseraphic tendencies. Answer the five questions below, total your answers, and compare them to the categories at the bottom to discover just what Choir or Band you belong to. (It is assumed throughout that no humans are reading this document.) 1: You are a member of the rebel forces trying to infiltrate the secret police. Joining the secret police requires taking an oath of allegiance to the President. Do you- A: refuse to take the oath, as to do so would make a mockery of the Truth and your Honour? B: try to get the person administering the oath to say it's only an empty formula, and take it in that spirit? C: say beforehand that all you are doing is quoting the relevant articles of the regulations concerning admission to the secret police; (Preferably several months beforehand on a different continent. If they didn't hear you, it's because of their lax security.) and then say the words boldly? D: say the words of the oath boldly? E: say the words boldly because after all, everyone knows that the words are only an empty formula, so it's not as if you're committing yourself to anything? 2: As part of your duties, you are required to deny secret police involvement in the murder of an opposition politician which you believe they were involved in. Do you- A: tell all the media organisations who ask that you believe the secret police were involved in the murder? B: deny all knowledge of secret police involvement (after all, you don't _know_ that they were involved)? C: say that inquiries into the death are proceeding (no need to mention that it's only the journalists doing so), and ask all those with relevant information to come forward (to the resistance, not to the police, as that would be stupid)? D: tell the media that the secret police were not involved? E: assure yourself that since the media will most certainly interpret any denial as an admission of guilt, that by denying it you will actually be exposing the truth of the matter to the media, so of course you're not lying. 3: As part of your duties, you are required to make a report on traitors within the secret police. Do you- A: admit immediately to being a member of the rebels yourself, and boldly refuse to conduct investigations on your comrades? B: conduct a half-hearted investigation designed not to uncover anything, and report that you have failed to uncover any new evidence of treason? C: conduct a thorough investigation and then finger those most loyal to the regime as enemies of the people and conspirators to terrorism since, as loyal members of the secret police, this must be true of them? D: go through the motions of investigation and finger a few personal enemies who you know to be loyal to the regime? E: arrest your closest friends for Contacts Leading to Suspicion of Treason, omitting the fact that you are the traitor with whom they have had contact, as this is not relevant to the purpose of the report (saving your ass)? 4: Government forces are pursuing a rebel leader. You know his location, and wish to prevent them capturing him. Do you- A: refuse to divulge any information, since you cannot lie and will not betray your comrades? B: imply that you know nothing of his whereabouts? C: say that his location is to the east, as this is true of any point in the globe which is not exactly due south or north of your location, and then imply that you know nothing more of his whereabouts? D: lie about where he's is? E: tell them exactly where he's is, and then warn the rebel leader of their coming, insisting that it was only because of your cunning and perspicacity that you learned of their intentions, and that this is the perfect opportunity to trap the government forces? 5: The rebel leader has been captured and is on trial. You are required to submit evidence to the prosecution. Do you- A: insist that he is innocent of any treason, since he was only doing his patriotic duty as a citizen by opposing the evil government? B: prepare a brief stating that under the relevant articles of the Code, he is guilty of such offences as treason, because you have to maintain your cover, and he will be found guilty and shot anyway? C: spend weeks piling up evidence against him which would convict him of treason under the criminal code, thus allowing more time to carry out his escape? D: carry out your duties as you would be expected to do? E: spend weeks inventing charges against him, in order to expose the moral bankruptcy of the regime, so that when he is executed after a trial lasting several weeks, he will become a martyr? Analysis of Answers; All As: You are almost certainly a Seraph, and probably either new-made or in service to the Laurence or Litheroy, as there are few others who can plumb the depths of naivete you regularly attain. Mostly As, You are struggling to overcome some of your naivete, but no Ds or Es: you still have a long way to go. That you have long to continue learning is no excuse. Try harder. Mostly Bs, You find the bounds of Truth inconvenient, but are no Ds or Es: repulsed at the thought of finding your way out of them. I fear that there may be no hope for you. Mostly Cs, While still devoted to the Truth, you perceive it less no Ds or Es: narrowly than others, and recognise that it is also a powerful instrument of deception. You are bold and resourceful, but the constant flitting about you most likely engage in limits your potential achievements. Any Ds: Either you belong to one of the lower, less interesting orders of Celestials, or are recklessly incurring dissonance and thus weakening yourself. You are also a shameless liar. Any Es: You approach the truth of existence, which you may shortly realise. Continue on your current path, and you will gain much. All Es: You have recognised the fundamental malleability of truth and the importance of looking after yourself before all others. Truly, you are to be congratulated. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 10:41:56 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> IN: Soul hits again (yeah I know), Grigori murders, books, and stuff (longish!) Concerning the thread on Soul Hits I've just been browsing through the rulebook, I wanted to ask a similar question. Are forces lost when the total damage in one single attack exceeds the total soul hits of the target, or after cumulative damage? In fact while I was browsing that section of the rulebook, I noticed something that gave me an idea. There’s a little section at the bottom of the paragraph on p.67 under Physical Death and After, that states ‘when a corporeal vessel of a celestial (including an ethereal spirit, or Child of the Grigori) is killed, his Forces regroup in the celestial realm,’. If you’ve got a campaign centre around the impending Armageddon, then you could have a group of angles killing certain humans around the earth. There only connection is the fact that they are Children of the Grigori (naturally humans won’t now this). So it would seem there’s a strange millennial cult emerging responsible for ritual murder. Their motive is simple: to bring the Grigori ‘home’ because their ‘talents’ (whatever they might be) are needed by Heaven for the upcoming battles. I would also like to ask peoples advice on how to portray the Superiors in the game. What experiences have other GM’s had and what tips can they share? I’ve read the little vignette about Portia the Cherub of Judgement in Heaven and Hell, this portrays Dominic very well and I would love to pull that off. The only problem is that the Dominic ion that story is remarkably perceptive and typically wise when answering Portia’s questions about tuirnig her friends in. As we all know players are more freewilled than characters in stories so how can I best get round this. And more importantly not make all Superiors the same! They are such strong characters after all (in every sense of the word!). Actually, if it hasn’t already been discussed, how do people play their IN games (from the GM’s point of view). I’ve just started my second scenario, so I’m still learning. As are the poor old players! I would also like to ask if anyone knows of any relevant Kabbalah resources online (and also the Book of Enoch while I’ve got your attention!) or if they know of anything of their own (that they have successfully made use of). A book I’ve been reading called ‘the Book of Miracles’ (by Stuart Gordon) has an interestig little section on Angels that hints at a few things that I want to pick up on. For instance, p.306 says: "The Tree of Life is a glyph or symbolic blueprint of universe. It has been called a ‘ground plan of the universe and the soul of man’. Rabbinical tradition says that this ancient body of knowledge was first taught to Adam in Eden by the Archangel Gabriel, to be passed on orally thereafter." I find this interesting (make of it what you will) and want to learn more; perhaps some of you have come across this before. If so let us know. I have just brought a book similar to the Dictionary of Angels (as recommended in the Rulebook). It’s called ‘Angels A to Z’ by James R. Lewis and Evelyn Dorothy Oliver; it’s very good, and mentions a couple of things which have stuck out in my mind so far: Michael’s tears, which he wept for the sinful formed the Cherubim. And that Metatron was (is) the Archangel of Death! Maybe the Dictionary covers this but I don’t know (I’m currently battling the Demons in my local library to let me take it home instead of keeping it in the reference section). Finally, Walter Milliken sayeth: >At one point, Elizabeth was suggesting Free Lilim might also be able to >go to the gates of Hell (where all the human souls go), though that >never made it into canon. And then they have to push their way through >the throngs to get in. That’s a great image! I really like that. The one thing guaranteed to make Hell even more miserable - Infernal queue jumpers - especially if you’re British! (One damned Tommy soul to another "damned foreigners! Always pushing in." The other replies: "I didn’t die in a war to be treated like this. Bloody Germans!") Whew, thanks for listening folks! PS: Nagasaki, in case you didn’t get my email - I live just outside of Bristol! Marnie - above all trying not to wobble! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:16:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: IN> Off-topic: Israel and Palestine A few weeks ago I wrote to the list stating my belief that the Israeli nation stole their land from the Palestinian Arabs. Two people wrote to me via private email regarding this topic, but I mistakenly deleted their messages (I am still getting used to a UNIX email reader). I would enjoy responding to their comments, esp. from the gentleman who questioned my university education. Any other emails on this topic are welcome as well. - -Jesse jrooney@zoo.uvm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:29:22 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim At 09:28 AM +0000 07/03/1998, Leath Sheales wrote: >I think this was clarified (possibly by Elizabeth or John) a long >time ago. It came down to the wording of the section on Hearts. >Hearts can not BE TAKEN FROM HEAVEN OR HELL. The Hearts of >Blandine and Beleth's followers were created in the Marches, thus >never were in Heaven or Hell to be taken from. There may be some >merit in saying they couldn't therefore leave the Marches, or that >they could be taken to the celestial realm, but wouldn't be able to >leave again. > Both Towers of the Dream Superiors have parts that reach into their respective Celestial realms. So the simplest answer would be to assume that the Hearts of the respective Superiors reside in the celestial parts of the respective Towers. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:32:43 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Heartless Free Lilim At 06:14 AM +0100 07/01/1998, Jo Hart wrote: >At 23:18 30/06/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >> Well, considering that in order to have a Heart, a Superior needs to make >>one for you, that pretty much should settle it. By definition, Free Lilim >>have no Superiors, and no Superior is going to make a Heart for a Lilim or >>any other celestial not pledged to its service. > >I assume that Lilith could, if the lilim didn't mind paying? What's a >couple more years of service in return for not having to go to limbo every >time you lose a vessel and having a way to get 'home' to Hell in a hurry if >you are out there on your own and things get a bit pear-shaped. > >Thanks everyone for the reference. I missed that comment in the LR. > Then again perhaps she simply can't. It may very well be an ability that Lucifer did not put into her makeup. After all, Lilith isn't either a Fallen Angel or a natural-born Demon. She's an ex-Human remade along different lines among the terms of her Bargain with Lucifer. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:26:50 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Heartstrings From Jo: > >(Hee. New discord: Heartstrings > Your heart has strings attached. Through them your superior can not only >track you around but also control your vessel as completely as a >marionette, if he wants to do so, even if he isn't really thinking about >it. So can anyone who has access to your heart. Once per day, or whenever >you are in a situation in which your superior has a particular personal >interest, make a will roll at a minus of this discord or else.. your >vessel/ host is temporarily no longer under your control. (This could be >especially bad for Demons of Dark Humour) ) > >The other prince who I really think would happily make hearts for the >heartless is Valefor. Probably vessels too. After all, why should he make >his own demons when he can just steal other people's? There are plenty of >young demons in hell who would be happy to sell themselves out for a shot >at the corporeal world -- so all the thieves have to do is audition a few >hopefuls, especially those who have managed to annoy their own prince. Come >to think of it, every Theft NPC I have ever used _was_ created by someone >else... > > >jo > This is all just...wonderful! Here, have some essence... :) - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #845 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.