From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jul 11 10:18:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29142 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:18:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA14507 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:22:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:22:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199807111522.KAA14507@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #850 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 850 In this digest: IN> Princes and Renegades IN> Angels of [Choose your favorite government system] IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Word-Bound Servitors of David Re: IN> SERIOUS FLUFF!: Some more game quotes IN> Saints Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Saints Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> SERIOUS FLUFF!: Some more game quotes Re: IN> Angels and Governments IN> RE: Wordbound Servitors of David Re: IN> Angels and Governments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:23:21 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Princes and Renegades >>>Not quite... Serving any demon prince has its own individual set of risks, particularly for those going renegade, and what those are can depend on the prince's Band, his Word, or just his personality traits unrelated to either.<<< Yes, I have some small knowledge of that subject. :) >>>For example, running out on Beleth has its unique risks because she's a Djinn, which means that she will stalk you to the ends of the earth and all other planes. Having the Word of Nightmares, she can use the Marches against you like no other, possibly haunting the dreams of mortals she knows you associate with, or sending her underlings to do so, to find you or to manipulate them against you. As for her personality, the IPG describes her as having stripped her emotions down to just one: hate. Which means that when she DOES find you, you're not just toast; you're a cat toy.<<< Yes, all of the above does suggest that of all the Princes to be caught by, if one should happen to be a Renegade from said Prince's service, Beleth probably ranks as one of the worst. However, that doesn't necessarily make it _harder_ to go Renegade from her service. It just makes the possible consequences more dire. She's attuned to your Heart, sure, but when you break your Heart, you break the attunement. Asmodeus, another Djinn, is more likely to have ways of attuning to you no matter how you try to cover your tracks... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:23:25 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angels of [Choose your favorite government system] >>>Angel of Communism (Had this guy pegged as an Elohite, but now I'm not so sure.) Nah, Mercurian. (Who else would believe they can teach humans to be that altruistic?) >>>Angel of Democracy (Kyriotate.) I'll buy that. :) >>>Angel of Monarchy Malakite. >>>Angel of Socialism Mercurian, definitely. >>>Angel of Republics Elohite (a Republic works best if everyone in it is rational...) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:23:16 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angels and Governments >>>Risky... Not all government systems are intended to bring people together; actually, most aren't.<<< Which ones aren't? A government is kind of self-defeating if some form of unity isn't its primary theme (even if it's uniformly oppressive). >>>I not sure how fond David would be of the Word of Monarchy,<<< A monarchy is as good (or as bad) as the monarch. A virtuous monarch who holds his nation together would probably please David. >>>and Fascism is right out.<<< Don't think so. Fascism is not inherently evil, though it's awfully hard to maintain a benevolent fascist state, humans being what they are. It can certainly be argued that David has fascist leanings, though. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:25:08 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Word-Bound Servitors of David At 5:32 AM -0400 7/9/98, Jo Hart wrote: >Angel of Vengeance >(Most likely to say: Revenge will be as swift as it is unexpected! > Least likely to say: It is wrong to meet violence with violence. Turn the >other cheek.) I've always seen the Angel of Vengeance as working for Gabriel. If he works of David, it makes it difficult for him to wreak vengeance on other people, unless the guy goes after Angel of Vengeance first. Also, with the Ofanite of Gabriel attunement, so he can douse his head in gasoline and set it on fire as he goes riding through the streets on a big black motorcycle--Oh now, I'm just getting silly. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Melvil, Djinn Knight of Fate, the Demon of Dewey Decimal System. nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:56:52 +0300 From: Ijon Tichy Subject: Re: IN> SERIOUS FLUFF!: Some more game quotes At 07:27 23/06/98 , Graveyard Greg wrote: >"What the Foul Filth?" Isaiah, Malakite of the Sword Which reminds me of a hillarious event in one of the recent sessions of my campaign: The players found themselves in St. Michael's Orphanage, a veritable greenhouse for raising orphans in the way of (you guessed it...) Michael. The place was practically the West Point of Saints of War. Tapestries depicting Gaelic campaigns, Memoirs from World War I, et cetera all over the place. One of the player characters is a Cherub of War. He presented himself cordially to Mother Irene, mother superior of the orphanage, and very dramatically said "Blessed Mother Superior, it is FATE that brought us to this house!" Two other players, _simultaneously_ and without planning, using the same intonation and all, whispered at him "DESTINY! DESTINY!". :) - -- Ijon Tichy Sailing the 'net in the only e-mail: ijon@forum2.org Space Barrel known to man. Homepage: http://forum2.org/ijon MOO: VotSB, http://forum2.org/forumoo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:23:57 -0500 (CDT) From: SaturdayBoy Subject: IN> Saints Okay, I'm new to this list, so this may have been addressed, but here's a little idea I had for Word-Bound Saints (essentially making the Saint the Patron Saint of whatever): 1) The Saint is created with a bonus. I don't have NIGHT MUSIC with me, but I believe the average saint gets seven forces to start with. A Word-Bound Saint gets eight. 2) The Word should decide the Superior, using both the Superior's word and the handy-dandy little table of how Superiors utilize Saints which appears in the SAINTS section of NIGHT MUSIC. 3) The Word-Bound Saint then gets a special rite or a Superior created artifact, or, in the case of really *important* Saints, both. This rite or artifact should be directly related to the Saints Word granted purpose. 4) Feel free to grant them any Choir or Servitor Attunements if they will directly help the Saints purpose. 5) This Saint *can* have servitors, but only Soldiers. Any Angel with the same Word becomes the Saint's immediate Superior. Here's my first and only example, feel free to use him if you think he's at all interesting... Jason, Patron Saint of the Homeless Saint of Creation (Eli's Saints are free-spirits and helping hands) Corporeal Forces - 3 (Vessel:Human/4, Body Hits - 35) Strength - 5 Agility - 7 Ethereal Forces - 3 (Mind Hits - 12) Intelligence - 4 Precision - 8 Celestial Forces - 2 (Soul Hits - 12) Will - 6 Perception - 2 Skills: Singing/4 Guitar Playing/6 (defaults to Precision) Emote/4 Survival:Urban/6 Songs: Corporeal Song of Healing/4 Artifacts: Guitar/Sword - A powerful relic of Eli (whose point cost I'm still working on) which has the following stats: Guitar form:Relic/5, Reliquary/5 Celestial Song of Charm/5(must be played by someone with Guitar Playing/6) Corporeal Song of Shields/4 Essence Only Usuable for The Relic Sword form:Talisman/5 Small Weapon:Short Sword/5 In either form, the Artifact is a CONCEALED WEAPON, invisible uder Jason's long coat. By way of explanation, the guitar is used to get donations from business people on the street, which Jason then doles out to noble homeless. The sword is used to punish those who prey on the homeless and those who are "homeless" merely to beg for money which supports drug habits or the like. Let me know what you think... ---That is all... - ---Commander Eric out. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:20:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>and Fascism is right out.<<< > > Don't think so. Fascism is not inherently evil, though it's awfully hard to > maintain a benevolent fascist state, humans being what they are. It can > certainly be argued that David has fascist leanings, though. Fascism Function: noun Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces Date: 1921 1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control Doesn't sound to good to me. There is a fine line between a common garden dictator, who may or may not have the best interest of their people at heart (whether or not rthey call themselves king/president/god) and a fascist. I don't believe fascism can have heavenly support. Especially considering that those we call fascists are all what is generally considered evil. mvg, Jasper Floor Can we ever have too much of a good thing? Miguel de Cervantes -Don Quixote Chap. vi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:01:30 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments >On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >> >>>and Fascism is right out.<<< >> >> Don't think so. Fascism is not inherently evil, though it's awfully hard to >> maintain a benevolent fascist state, humans being what they are. It can >> certainly be argued that David has fascist leanings, though. > >Fascism >Function: noun >Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin >fascis bundle & fasces fasces >Date: 1921 >1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that >of the Fascisti) that exalts ****nation and often race above the >individual**** >and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a >dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible >suppression of opposition > >Doesn't sound to good to me. There is a fine line between a common garden >dictator, who may or may not have the best interest of their people at >heart (whether or not rthey call themselves king/president/god) and a >fascist. I don't believe fascism can have heavenly support. Especially >considering that those we call fascists are all what is generally >considered evil. > >mvg, >Jasper Floor First of all, we have a pretty strong acknowledgement of David being group AA. Second, you just established that Fascism put "nation or race [read "group"] above the individual" with the definition. Conclusion, the idea of Fascism (a group oriented political system) could easily be supported by the AA who supports groups. I think that the main problem that people have with this idea is the thought that Hitler was a Fascist. Most of us think that Hitler was evil, ergo, Fascism is evil as well. We don't take the time and think what it was that the Fascists were doing, rebuilding Germany. (Badly misguided though) You can look at Fascism through the eyes of a sports team. The coach rides his players (opressively one might say) until they are a functioning team. While we always remember the person who scores the goal, where would he be without the person who passed him the ball? That is the essence of a team [again, read "group"], and which is the team-player AA? Besides, I tend to think that dentists are evil. Does this make them all spawn of Calabites? Armand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:28:50 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Saints In a message dated 98-07-10 14:40:23 EDT, you write: > 2) The Word should decide the Superior, using both the Superior's word and > the handy-dandy little table of how Superiors utilize Saints which appears > in the SAINTS section of NIGHT MUSIC. > > 3) The Word-Bound Saint then gets a special rite or a Superior created > artifact, or, in the case of really *important* Saints, both. This rite > or artifact should be directly related to the Saints Word granted purpose. First I *really* like Saints, even if as a GM they do present some challenges at times. It may be just me, but it seems that just the opposite here would be easier, at least as far as I generate PC's or NPC's: decide the Superior first and then come up with the Saint's Word. I know, I know it's a technicality... > 4) Feel free to grant them any Choir or Servitor Attunements if they will > directly help the Saints purpose. > > 5) This Saint *can* have servitors, but only Soldiers. Any Angel with > the same Word becomes the Saint's immediate Superior. > > Here's my first and only example, feel free to use him if you think he's > at all interesting... > > Jason, Patron Saint of the Homeless > Saint of Creation (Eli's Saints are free-spirits and helping hands) [snip] > > By way of explanation, the guitar is used to get donations from business > people on the street, which Jason then doles out to noble homeless. The > sword is used to punish those who prey on the homeless and those who are > "homeless" merely to beg for money which supports drug habits or the like. Sounds more like one of Gabby's saints. Perhaps a Saint of Creation serving Fire, although I'm not sure I would take the Creation angle at all here. Just a thought. All right, back to lurking... -- Thom. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:35:32 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments In a message dated 98-07-10 16:26:30 EDT, you write: > Doesn't sound to good to me. There is a fine line between a common garden > dictator, who may or may not have the best interest of their people at > heart (whether or not rthey call themselves king/president/god) and a > fascist. I don't believe fascism can have heavenly support. Especially > considering that those we call fascists are all what is generally > considered evil. Nope, not quite done lurking I guess :-) Remember that David also supports the Skinheads, as is mentioned in the main book. And you certainly can't call the results of some of their intentions *good*. As someone posted earlier, I don't think you can really label governments "good" or "evil" but perhaps the men involved you can. -- Thom. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:38:32 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments In a message dated 98-07-10 18:03:25 EDT, you write: > Besides, I tend to think that dentists are evil. Does this make them all > spawn of Calabites? Err, yes I think it does. And don't try to argue otherwise :-) Sheesh! it's sad to be alone on Friday nights with nothing to do! -- Thom. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:11:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> SERIOUS FLUFF!: Some more game quotes - ---Ijon Tichy wrote: > One of the player characters is a Cherub of War. He presented himself > cordially to Mother Irene, mother superior of the orphanage, and very > dramatically said "Blessed Mother Superior, it is FATE that brought us to > this house!" > > Two other players, _simultaneously_ and without planning, using the same > intonation and all, whispered at him "DESTINY! DESTINY!". > > :) > Heh heh heh...anytime one of the PCs sez "Hell", the others immediately tell that PC "WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE!" Does anyone else have that happen to them? Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:10:47 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments Armand wrote: > First of all, we have a pretty strong acknowledgement of David being group AA. > > Second, you just established that Fascism put "nation or race [read > "group"] above the individual" with the definition. > > Conclusion, the idea of Fascism (a group oriented political system) could > easily be supported by the AA who supports groups. > > I think that the main problem that people have with this idea is the > thought that Hitler was a Fascist. Most of us think that Hitler was evil, > ergo, Fascism is evil as well. We don't take the time and think what it > was that the Fascists were doing, rebuilding Germany. (Badly misguided > though) > > You can look at Fascism through the eyes of a sports team. The coach rides > his players (opressively one might say) until they are a functioning team. > While we always remember the person who scores the goal, where would he be > without the person who passed him the ball? That is the essence of a team > [again, read "group"], and which is the team-player AA? Not to drive this thread completely off-topic (though I may be too late even for that), but this really ignores the underlying philosophical justifications for fascism. First off, whatever the general public may think, Hitler is not the prototypical fascist; look to either Benito Mussolini or Francisco Franco. Those two are bad enough; we don't need to throw full scale genocide into the mix. The sports team analogy is off the mark in a couple of different ways. The most obvious is that one makes a conscious decision to join a sports team, while a fascist ideology is imposed. Scotty Bowman (hey, I'm a huge Red Wings fan; I draw the analogies from close to home) may be a first class jackass in the way he treats the people around him, but he's perfectly happy to trade you if you don't want to fit in. The element of fascism that probably wouldn't win a lot of favor in the IN heaven is that it doesn't merely promote the group (nation) over the individual, it promotes the nation to the exclusion of the individual. A person's ONLY role is as part of the machinery of the state in its role as the advocate of the nation. While none of the fascistic states achieved this ideal (even the Soviet Union, if you view it as such), that was the goal of the ideology. Personal salvation was a non-issue. Was Hitler's goal to "rebuild Germany"? Well, yes. But what the Nazis meant by rebuilding is antithetical to angelic practices, even for David. The worth of an individual is still important. My reading of it is that David believes that the value of loyalty is that it strengthens the will of those who belong to his organization rather than that salvation will come to the nation as a whole if only each member will shut up and do as they're told. But, then again, I like to think of myself as a disciple of Marc. So, I might just be trying to rationalize the dangerous tendencies of one of the other archangels. Besides, as a Servitor of Trade, I should point out that Hitler actually drove the German economy into the ground rather than helping it, even if conventional wisdom holds otherwise. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:30:40 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> RE: Wordbound Servitors of David >Angel of Cod Liver Oil >(It tastes foul but it is very good for you. Allegedly.) Dissonance: he gains dissonance whenever he fails to dissuade young boys from diluting the foul taste of their earache medicine! Angel of Scouring for Boys Angel of Visionquests Angel of Dens (and hiding places) Angel of Rock (scissors, paper) Angel of statues (obviously - the Angel of the north?) Angel of the Millennium Dome (though I figure Blandine would have a hand in it’s conception) Angel of Walking Ascross Hot Coals Angel of Marathons (Angel of the Long Distance Runner) Angel of Come Hell or High Water Angel of Leafy Green Vegetables Angel of School Cross-country Runs/Treks Angel of Team Games (have we already had that?) Angel of Drinking Games Angel of Fasting Angel of Hazing Anglel of The Cane Angel of Corporal Punishment Angel of School Hymns Angel of Community Service Angel of Hard Labour Angel of Braking Rocks Angle of Coalminers Angel of Working Men clubs Angel of the Woman’s Institute Angel of Neighbourhood Watch Angel of Parent/Teacher Associations Somebody help me! Marnie PS Thansk to Earl W for sending that stuff - i wondered though if you'vr had any joy usign Kabbalahism in the game at all (i'd send this privatley but hotmail arent so hot right now!) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:07:26 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments >The sports team analogy is off the mark in a couple of different ways. >The most >obvious is that one makes a conscious decision to join a sports team, while a >fascist ideology is imposed. Scotty Bowman (hey, I'm a huge Red Wings >fan; I draw >the analogies from close to home) may be a first class jackass in the way he >treats the people around him, but he's perfectly happy to trade you if you >don't >want to fit in. Okay, but how does one get into the NHL? Skill and talent. If a person is born without the ability to play hockey, then they probably are not going to be able to be a part of team; even if they want to. I'm not up on the dynamics of recruitment for the NHL, but if you look at sports in the US like football and basketball; you'll notice this thing that they do called the draft. Both the NFL and the NBA have one. Again, this is another part of the process that removes the conscious decision from the hands of the player (citizen) {"What's that, you wanted to play for the Bulls? Maybe after your contract is up. Right now you belong to the Timberwolves.} >The element of fascism that probably wouldn't win a lot of favor in the IN >heaven >is that it doesn't merely promote the group (nation) over the individual, it >promotes the nation to the exclusion of the individual. A person's ONLY >role is >as part of the machinery of the state in its role as the advocate of the >nation. >While none of the fascistic states achieved this ideal (even the Soviet >Union, if >you view it as such), that was the goal of the ideology. Personal >salvation was a >non-issue. So, it's like they're a part of the Symphony. Not trying to get around their Destiny. Following their path in the fullfilment of God's innefible plan? Where does salvation fit into this anyway? >Was Hitler's goal to "rebuild Germany"? Well, yes. But what the Nazis >meant by >rebuilding is antithetical to angelic practices, even for David. The >worth of an >individual is still important. My reading of it is that David believes >that the >value of loyalty is that it strengthens the will of those who belong to his >organization rather than that salvation will come to the nation as a whole >if only >each member will shut up and do as they're told. Pardon me for being thick as a brick, but I'm not really seeing the difference here. The value of any governmental system is each individual doing their part and having qualified individuals to replace them if need be. I don't really get how the individual loses importance. What is the difference on whether David kindly asks one of his servitors to do something or issues it as a forceful command? Again, I'm still at a loss on this whole idea of governmental systems being evil and antithetical to the angelic purpose. Getting this back onto the original path [the idea of the being an Angel of Fascism, and who he might serve], I would conclude that he is probably a little frazzled at the failures that have plagued his Word. It all seems like a good idea. If only he could get good people in charge... Someone like his AA, David. Armand ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #850 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.