From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jul 12 13:18:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09301 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:18:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA32589 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:23:25 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:23:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199807121823.NAA32589@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #851 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, July 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 851 In this digest: IN> Riddler question IN> Re: AA of Stone IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David IN> Dental Cruelty Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Riddler question Re: IN> Riddler question Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Angels and Governments Re: IN> Angels and Governments IN> An IN LARP story/Gaming Quote Re: IN> Angels and Governments IN> Re: all this nasty fascism business (poor old Dave!) Re: IN> Re: all this nasty fascism business (poor old Dave!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Gastonguay Subject: IN> Riddler question I'm almost ready to start my sphinx adventure...but as one of my players was making his character...I noticed a problem. "pg 110: An angel of Blandine may not take his celestial form in the mundane world, nor use Celestial Songs on Earth. To do so generates dissonance." But what about Kyriotates? In order for them to get a host...don't they go celestial down to Earth to find a host...does that mean they get dissonant between each host? I just want my game to go smoothly..and the first choir my player jumped on was the Kyrio....eh...I'll never get this done...... Deacon, Elohim of Destiny, under the role of Adam, student writer. P. S. for those that could answer my previous riddles.. It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt. It lies beyond stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills. It comes first and follows after. Ends life, kills laughter. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:54:27 -0400 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Re: AA of Stone Armand wrote: > >>The element of fascism that probably wouldn't win a lot of favor in >>the IN heaven is that it doesn't merely promote the group (nation) over >>the individual, it promotes the nation to the exclusion of the individual. >>A person's ONLY role is as part of the machinery of the state in its >>role as the advocate of the nation. While none of the fascistic states >>achieved this ideal (even the Soviet Union, if you view it as such), that >>was the goal of the ideology. Personal salvation was a on-issue. > >So, it's like they're a part of the Symphony. Not trying to get around >their Destiny. Following their path in the fullfilment of God's innefible >plan? Where does salvation fit into this anyway? Ask, and you shall receive... :) - -*-*-*- Servitor: Lord David, it does me great honor that the Lord has sent you in answer to my prayer. David: The Lord God has commanded me to love and protect you, and I would not defy Him, for I see His work in you. Tell me what troubles you. S: Well, you've commanded me to help this priest build his church, and I've been doing that, but I can't really see the point, you know? I mean, it's like all this doctrine and preaching, it's not the real thing at all. See, I went up to Mount McKinley a few years back -- up in Alaska -- and I stood at the base of the mountain just looking up at the peak. The whole solid hugeness of it dwarfed me, and I stood there thinking that God made this and I just felt His presence there, vast and gentle and terrible and beyond anything I could imagine. That -- that's what I've been trying to get people to feel sometimes, to know that God's out there, and I'm just not succeeding. I just say the prayers and the formulas and I feel strangled by them. D: Ah. You're trying to do the wrong thing. S: Pardon? D: The church cannot and should not convey the majesty of the Lord. He is not contained by it, and indeed nothing can contain Him, besides Himself. S: Er, then why are we bothering? D: You stood at the mountain and saw His work. Did you see the whole of it? S: No -- it was just one view. D: And a man standing at another point, he would have another view, yes? S: Yes. D: And if many men compiled their separate views, they could build a map of the mountain, yes? S: Yes. D: This map would be more useful in a plotting a course to the summit, and yet it would convey nothing of the feeling of seeing the strength of the stone. S: Yes, lord. D: So it is with the communities of man. Each man receives the vision of God even as you have, but each from his own perspective. Put each together and we will have a map that will make the path to Him easier. This is one of the Lord's greatest gifts to us. He gives us the joy of hearing of another's knowledge of Him, new and marvelous to us, and still this unique knowledge may help others on the road to Him. Is this not a mighty miracle? S: Woah. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:18:36 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades >Asmodeus, another Djinn, is more likely to have ways of attuning to you no >matter how you try to cover your tracks... Oh yeah, he's good at that Sneaky Bastard (tm) schtick. Still... Just imagine the consequences if he finally catches up to you, tries to cut the attumenent so he can smite you-- and blows it. You'll probably wish he'd succeeded. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:26:35 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David On Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:16:22PM -0700, Daniel Maberry wrote: > Risky... Not all government systems are intended to bring people > together; actually, most aren't. They're designed by people in power > (perhaps having just gained, as in a coup) as a way to maintain that > power. However, if they are successful government systems, they tend to have the effect, or at least appearance, of bringing people together. (Kind of like the way the President and the Minister for Internal Security usually hang together in Junta.) I not sure how fond David would be of the Word of Monarchy, and > Fascism is right out. What's not Stoney about Fascism? National pride, militarism and the corporate state all look like Dave would find them kosher. I don't imagine he promoted the Third Reich (at least after the Holocaust began), but I don't think he'd have a problem with other fascist states. And isn't Heaven theoretically a monarchy? He might like Words like Democracy and Socialism > better, but whatever angel gets a government type as a Word should be > careful to PREVENT its corruption, rather than being dragged down with > it. > That goes for any Word. > Now THERE'S a thought: The Mercurian angel of Communism. Took the Word > during Marx's life when he saw his philosophy's potential, but when > Communist Russia turned corrupt, he not only Fell, but was re-granted > the Word by Lucifer. Yikes. > I've generally assumed that the Demon of Communism is a Habbalite of Factions, on the grounds that a Habbalite is more likely to believe in it. An Impudite patron doesn't work, because demons have to prevent human death whenever they can, whereas Mercurians can stand by, or even instigate it. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:28:35 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Dental Cruelty >Besides, I tend to think that dentists are evil. Does this make them all >spawn of Calabites? > No... Habbalah! "Hmmm. Tut, tut, tut. Dear oh dear... Well, I'm afraid that *all* of them will have to come out, Jimmy. Now, if only we'd been a _little stricter_ with our brushing..? " - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:21:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > I've generally assumed that the Demon of Communism is a Habbalite of > Factions, on the grounds that a Habbalite is more likely to believe in it. > An Impudite patron doesn't work, because demons have to prevent human > death whenever they can, whereas Mercurians can stand by, or even > instigate it. Um...care to run that by me again? - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:20:07 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments >>>>and Fascism is right out.<<< > >Don't think so. Fascism is not inherently evil, though it's awfully hard to >maintain a benevolent fascist state, humans being what they are. It can >certainly be argued that David has fascist leanings, though. Actually, IIRC, David servitors include Neo-Nazis. Yours, Yossi Gurvitz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:43:22 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments Hello. >Second, you just established that Fascism put "nation or race [read >"group"] above the individual" with the definition. Theologically, I think there's a good case for such a system to be considered evil. Every human's soul is his own, and by forcing him to act in specific ways, or even goading him in a specific direction, his free will is impinged upon. Sorcery was considered evil for precisely that: subverting a person's will. A government who breaks down the will of as many people as possible to its own end is liable to be considered evil, by this criteria. >I think that the main problem that people have with this idea is the >thought that Hitler was a Fascist. Most of us think that Hitler was evil, >ergo, Fascism is evil as well. We don't take the time and think what it >was that the Fascists were doing, rebuilding Germany. (Badly misguided >though) I think a better example would be Fascist Italy . And saying the Nazis were "misguided" is a major understate,emt. Yours, Yossi Gurvitz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:48:19 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments Actually, his servitors contain skinheads (Pg112), who can have nothing to do with Neo-Naziism. The skinhead movement started as part of a musical trend in the Caribbean, and it was only later that it was perverted into an intrument of violence against race. I know SHARP skinheads, and they love to beat up on racist skinheads. They work well togethers, and try to spread the word of unity and organization. Sounds like David to me (although I guess that a Shedite could grab one of them, start a ruckus, and give the SHARPs a bad name...) Brian Ward On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:20:07 +0300 Yossi Gurvitz writes: > >>>>>and Fascism is right out.<<< >> >>Don't think so. Fascism is not inherently evil, though it's awfully >hard to >>maintain a benevolent fascist state, humans being what they are. It >can >>certainly be argued that David has fascist leanings, though. > Actually, IIRC, David servitors include Neo-Nazis. > > Yours, > Yossi Gurvitz > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:52:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Riddler question On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Adam Gastonguay wrote: > "pg 110: An angel of Blandine may not take his celestial form in the > mundane world, nor use Celestial Songs on Earth. To do so generates > dissonance." > > But what about Kyriotates? In order for them to get a host...don't > they go celestial down to Earth to find a host...does that mean they > get dissonant between each host? They must arrive on earth in celestial form, true, and that is dissonant. Of course, Blandine's guys have a hard time going between Heaven and Earth anyways - unless in a tether, they get dissonance every time they ascend! But they don't go celestial between hosts unless the host they're leaving is the LAST host of theirs. In other words, if a Kyrio is in a human and a pigeon, and he leaves the human to enter something else, there's no 'celestial' form to speak up...the Forces in the human are simply released (think of them as being sucked back into the pigeon now if that makes it easier) and then reinvested in the new host. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Official Martyr of X-Day! ::: Visit #subgenii on irc.sorcery.net - it's a beautiful place ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:21:31 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Ladegard" Subject: Re: IN> Riddler question Pee Kitty wrote: > > "pg 110: An angel of Blandine may not take his celestial form in the > > mundane world, nor use Celestial Songs on Earth. To do so generates > > dissonance." > > > > But what about Kyriotates? In order for them to get a host...don't > > they go celestial down to Earth to find a host...does that mean they > > get dissonant between each host? > > They must arrive on earth in celestial form, true, and that is dissonant. > Of course, Blandine's guys have a hard time going between Heaven and Earth > anyways - unless in a tether, they get dissonance every time they ascend! > But they don't go celestial between hosts unless the host they're leaving > is the LAST host of theirs. In other words, if a Kyrio is in a human and a > pigeon, and he leaves the human to enter something else, there's no > 'celestial' form to speak up...the Forces in the human are simply released > (think of them as being sucked back into the pigeon now if that makes it > easier) and then reinvested in the new host. Just a procedural question, but could a Kyrio of Dreams move into the Marchs and take a host there? - - Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 05:10:41 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments At 12:48 AM 7/12/98 , you wrote: >Actually, his servitors contain skinheads (Pg112), who can have nothing >to do with Neo-Naziism. The skinhead movement started as part of a >musical trend in the Caribbean, and it was only later that it was >perverted into an intrument of violence against race. Well, the common image of skinheads *does* connect them with hate crimes, and I assume that's what the game designers had in mind; otherwise, why use "They proudly skinheads among their followers"? Admittedly, my attitude towards David is influenced by a rather dumb player we had in our group (he dropped out a long while ago), who played an equally stupid Malakite of David. :-) Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:24:18 +0300 From: Ijon Tichy Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments Dear Nyarlathotep and all! At 05:10 12/07/98 , Yossi Gurvitz wrote: > > >>Actually, his servitors contain skinheads (Pg112), who can have nothing >>to do with Neo-Naziism. The skinhead movement started as part of a >>musical trend in the Caribbean, and it was only later that it was >>perverted into an intrument of violence against race. > Well, the common image of skinheads *does* connect them with hate crimes, >and I assume that's what the game designers had in mind; otherwise, why use >"They proudly skinheads among their followers"? > > Admittedly, my attitude towards David is influenced by a rather dumb >player we had in our group (he dropped out a long while ago), who played an >equally stupid Malakite of David. :-) Despite knowing the same player and his various grievances against mankind, I rather like David. I think he can make for quite fascinating angels and angelic adventures. - -- Ijon Tichy Sailing the 'net in the only e-mail: ijon@forum2.org Space Barrel known to man. Homepage: http://forum2.org/ijon MOO: VotSB, http://forum2.org/forumoo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 00:35:54 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments > Hello. > >>Second, you just established that Fascism put "nation or race [read >>"group"] above the individual" with the definition. > Theologically, I think there's a good case for such a system to be >considered evil. Every human's soul is his own, and by forcing him to act >in specific ways, or even goading him in a specific direction, his free >will is impinged upon. Sorcery was considered evil for precisely that: >subverting a person's will. A government who breaks down the will of as >many people as possible to its own end is liable to be considered evil, by >this criteria. First of all, this assumes that there is free will. As far as I know, this is an issue that Canon isn't touching with a 10' pitchfork. Second, why do we always think of it as braking the human will. As a pastor told me once on why the Christian church was the only way to Salvation, "We're right. If you saw a bunch of people in a raft heading toward a waterfall, you'd warn them and try to show them the right way?" Kind of oppressive if you ask me, but I haven't heard a rally cry against the Presbytarian's for this. (It was printed in a pamphlet on how to convert non Presbytarians) Allow me to reiterate. I think that we get to bogged down with the connotations of a word's images than with the word itself. For an angelic example of Fascism, check out Dominic. Man, that guy has some serious oppression issues; but what side is he on? [bein' rhetorical here.] Armand ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 02:44:10 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> An IN LARP story/Gaming Quote *teeheehee* Okay, I'm done with the LARP. It only took me 3 months to get to this point. Well, that and having my Angelic ST decide to get a job and run off to the cesspool of all evil... *grin* However, we pulled it off. Game Mechanics were a nightmare, but we did it. Though we didn't quite wind up where we wanted too... But still, the Side of Good won. I'll have to try harder next time... *evil grin* The more amusing moment came when Yves and Kronos were playing a Chess game, to represent the metaphorical story behind the LARP. The PCs were gathered around, to hear the tale. And of course, one of the Kyriotates of Destiny had to make the quip: "I'm Yves-dropping." - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, The Demon of Delusions of Grandeur. PS: Yes Greg, I'll finish the short stories based around the LARP... You'll appreciate it considering what's going on in your game... *teeheehee* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 06:20:52 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Governments Ijon Tichy wrote: > Dear Nyarlathotep and all! > > At 05:10 12/07/98 , Yossi Gurvitz wrote: > > > > > > > Well, the common image of skinheads *does* connect them with hate crimes, > >and I assume that's what the game designers had in mind; otherwise, why use > >"They proudly skinheads among their followers"? > > > > Admittedly, my attitude towards David is influenced by a rather dumb > >player we had in our group (he dropped out a long while ago), who played an > >equally stupid Malakite of David. :-) > > Despite knowing the same player and his various grievances against mankind, > I rather like David. I think he can make for quite fascinating angels and > angelic adventures. I agree. The line about his Malakim being charged with training humans in self-defense [martial arts, by my interp.] fairly screamed, to me at least, "My name is Kain. I will help you." Being a (tm) Drooling FanBoy of "Kung Fu: the Legend Continues", this automatically put me in David's pocket. Think about it - -- Quai Chang Kain would suddenly show up when his students/son would get in trouble, seemingly out of nowhere. Sounds to me like Corp. Motion combined with Ethereal Forms, or possibly Celestial Motion. Either Corp. Shields or Corp. Forms would help explain why he survived what would otherwise be crippling or killing blows. Actually, I could see Kain as being a Malak of Flowers in service to Stone, if Novalis weren't listed as being hostile to David, since this would explain his healing touch and also his feeling for growing plants. I even used to identify myself as a Stone Malak when I would sign my email messages. [this coming from a security guard who _refuses_ to even *attempt* to get my fire-arms license, even though this would open up more profitable jobs as an Armed Guard -- don't like guns; think their would be a _little_ less violence in the world if you actually had to get close enough to get spattered by the blood of someone you killed -- IMHO, of course, YMMV]. tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:58:16 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re: all this nasty fascism business (poor old Dave!) >A monarchy is as good (or as bad) as the monarch. A virtuous monarch who holds his nation together would >probably please David. Just as an aside, I don’t think that the ‘Angel of Monarchy’ would serve David; I had him/her pegged as a servitor of Laurence being as he’s CO of God’s Armies and the Queen, in England at least, is Defender of the Faith, etc. his choir would have to be Cherub. Oh heck I don’t know! >>>>Risky... Not all government systems are intended to bring people together; actually, most aren't.<<< > >Which ones aren't? A government is kind of self-defeating if some form of unity isn't its primary theme (even >if it's uniformly oppressive). Governments are self-defeating! (That’s right! Parents are wrong, kids are right, vote Labour - OOP’s, we did!) democracy is NOT fair and choice is an illusion. That’s the rules of the Game (in my game I plan to have the House of Parliament tethered to Asmodeus and Kronos - Politics, especially with all the traditions of the HoP, is little more than a Game. A Sport. All the while are lives go on; some win some lose. >I've always seen the Angel of Vengeance as working for Gabriel. If he works of David, it makes it difficult >for him to wreak vengeance on other people, unless the guy goes after Angel of Vengeance first. That’s what I think as well. righteous anger and furious vengeance, etc. © Gabriel! >I don't believe fascism can have heavenly support. Especially considering that those we call fascists are all >what is generally considered evil. I must agree. For arguments sake, in my interpretation of the game, fascism is Malphas fault. Fascistic behavior is inherently divisive and oppressive, surely; and by that, ‘unheavenly’! >I think that the main problem that people have with this idea is the thought that Hitler was a Fascist. Most of >us think that Hitler was evil, ergo, Fascism is evil as well. We don't take the time and think what it was that >the Fascists were doing, rebuilding Germany. (Badly misguided though) In their act of rebuilding they set themselves apart (they being the policy makers - the Nazis) from other ‘groups’ (the Jews). They made themselves feel strong at the expense of other’s - how can David support that. That would seem like pretty Dissonant behavior for one such as he - - to take his word so far as that. But I guess that’s the problem with dealing with the concepts of IN so deeply. >You can look at Fascism through the eyes of a sports team. The coach rides his players (oppressively one >might say) until they are a functioning team. While we always remember the person who scores the goal, >where would he be without the person who passed him the ball? That is the essence of a team [again, read >"group"], and which is the team-player AA? For one to win the other has to lose. What is good about that? Winning comes at the cost of loss for the others - what doe this mean in terms of armed conflict? David obviously has a tough job. Perhaps he’s the one that says ‘it’s not the winning it’s the taking part’, while Malphas is the one who says ‘go all out and win at all costs’ just take football, for example. (I mean please!) But does David promote the group over the individual or that, while both are equally important, he tales care of the concepts of ‘group’ (who has individual?). Marnie - make mine marvel! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:08:24 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Re: all this nasty fascism business (poor old Dave!) >>You can look at Fascism through the eyes of a sports team. The coach >rides his players (oppressively one >might say) until they are a >functioning team. While we always remember the person who scores the >goal, >where would he be without the person who passed him the ball? >That is the essence of a team [again, read >"group"], and which is the >team-player AA? > >For one to win the other has to lose. What is good about that? Winning >comes at the cost of loss for the others - what doe this mean in terms >of armed conflict? David obviously has a tough job. Perhaps heís the one >that says ëitís not the winning itís the taking partí, while Malphas is >the one who says ëgo all out and win at all costsí >just take football, for example. (I mean please!) No, David says, "We didn't start this, but we're going to finish it." Besides, David is exclusionary. I don't see him having, oh say Balseraph attuneents. He is excluding all former angels. So what if they don't see the Symphony in the same light. He forms groups for the purpose of being ready to "finish" any dispute with demonic forces. And really, what form of IN do you play? There is a war on, whether you play it as a hot or cold war. The prise is the destiny/fate of the world. Ask any of the AA's if they are up for losing this war. I don't think that there would be many affirmative answers. I cannot take seriously the thought of any of the AA's sitting around in a bright victory setting and mourning because someone had to lose. Besides, I love this filtering of David's followers. "His servitors encourage people to join together in strength for mutual loyalty and protection, even to the point of forming street gangs and militias. They proudly count skinheads among their followers." Look this does not mean coffee klatches of well wishing do gooders talking about how best to change the world. These are people that arm themselves for group prptection. Even the idea (if you want to be exclusionary) that SHARP's are the only type of skinheads in Davids court supports this. Someone posted that he knew SHARP's that beat up racists. Not report these people to the police for possible hate-crime disgressions. They're not lobbying for controls on race discrimination. No, they're beating people up. Sounds a little oppressive to me. And then, there's this little gem, "David's followers are blindly loyal, and do not tolerate anyone questioning their master's decisions." I don't know what form of governing you'd think that this falls under, but I'm sensin' Fascism here. Yeah, it's an ugly Word, but so are a great many other Words. These are the angels that can take this and make it theirs. To reiterate myself yet again, Fascism isn't evil; just the connotations that we apply to it when we hear the word. Armand ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #851 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.