From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 14 11:19:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09316 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:19:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA05991 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:17:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:17:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199807141617.LAA05991@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #855 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 855 In this digest: Re: IN> A little Knowledge... Re: IN> Re: IN- Angels and Governments IN> Pinko Commie Impudites Re: IN> Mormon cosmology (was: Moroni) IN> Mormon angels IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Re: RE: nasty ... Re: IN> Getting there(more from the Riddler) Re: IN> Nutty little angels? Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades Re: IN> The Pleasure Principle IN> David, groups and Fascism Re: IN> Ineffible plans RE: IN> tarot cards Re: IN> Re: IN- Angels and Governments Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:01:31 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> A little Knowledge... On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > Hmmm... OK. So Moroni would be a Saint of Destiny on loan to Revelation? I > like this. But my player may be ticked. (I don't think Saints can have Angelic > Servitors...) I think that's correct in canon. However, if you *want* to have a Word-bound Saint (another canon no-no), then there's no realistic reason why he couldn't have Angelic Servitors. Just assume that Heaven is a meritocracy, and you are good to go. If you don't want to deviate from canon like that, don't make Moroni a Word-bound. Just make him a respected Saint of Destiny that Yves has placed in charge of some operation or another. > The other option of a Servitor of Fire (from before Gabby's madness...) is a > good one, too. (Perhaps on loan to Destiny until she recovers.) I rather liked it myself. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant PS: If you write Moroni up as a character (Superior or not), could you e-mail me a copy? I'd be interested to see what you come up with. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:24:57 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Ladegard" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Angels and Governments Daniel Maberry wrote: > >My thoughts on this are that Vengeance can get out of hand. Dommie's > boys > >tend to mete out the exact value of punishment for the crime. Also, and > I > >think that people forget this side of Dommie, his Servitors defend the > >innocent. Gabriel avenges the wrong doing. Again, she might get going > >after the wrong person. Just my thoughts, > > I don't think Gabriel is very likely at all to punish the wrong person. > After all, her Choir attumenents lether servitors detect guilt. Their > punishments are targeted based on what people know they've done > themselves, not what others think they've done. > > Also, remember that Dominic's dissonance restriction is to never punish > someone MORE harshly than they deserve. Think about that. Good point about the implied acceptance of punishing someone _LESS_ severly than they merit. The question becomes whether this is to allow mercy or something else. Just to throw another ball in the air, if I remember correctly, Dominic's word is Judgement, not Justice. These words are not synonymous, Dominic's Judgement's are not required to be just. His decisions don't have the same divine inspiration, saving those using Heavenly Judgement attunement, that Gabriel's, and his people's, do. - - Tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:33:38 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Pinko Commie Impudites >>>Look it up. Impudites can't stand by and let humans get killed (except Impudites of Death, The War if the death is by honourable combat, and Dark Humour if it's funny). It reduces their precious Essence supplies, and that's what being an Impudite is all about. Note that in all cases where an Impudite doesn't get dissonance for killing someone, they can get Essence from it. And since the ideology of Communism has done a good job of getting people killed, I don't see how an Impudite can have that as a Word.<<< That's where you went wrong, right there. See, rabid anti-[fill-in-your-most-despised-political/social/economic-system]ists are very fond of saying "This system has historically caused misery, death, etc., therefore it's inherent in the system" -- but that's not true. There is nothing intrinsically lethal in communism. In fact, many small communist communities have gotten along quite well and peacefully. And an Impudite would probably do quite well there. Assuming that because Stalin was a communist, communism = murder and therefore Impudites are automatically anti-communist is just....well, really flawed thinking. You could just as easily say Mercurians can't support capitalism -- after all, capitalism has caused a lot of deaths too (I'm a staunch pro-capitalist myself, but I'm not unaware of some of America's dirty deeds in South America, Southeast Asia and elsewhere, in the name of multinational corporations), and capitalism, while perhaps the most efficient system at providing maximum benefit and opportunity to the greatest number of people, is also the most heartless on an individual level. (And in fact, I tend to think that most Mercurians -- except maybe Marc's ;), are more likely to favor socialism, or even communism, than capitalism. (Of those who even care about economics, that is.) But certainly not all. And btw, a Servitor of Marc can be a communist too -- but I digress...) Heck, Impudites clearly can't condone smoking, drinking, or driving cars...all those things cause massive numbers of deaths. Really, I wish people would stop plugging their personal biases into conversations as universal truths. - -David (now let's see all the screeching about how a Servitor of Marc can't possibly be a communist...;)) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:39:22 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Mormon cosmology (was: Moroni) On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Daniel Maberry wrote: > Yes, in IN terms, Moroni would be a Saint. However, in Mormon cosmology, > so would EVERY celestial. Basically. To tell the truth, I considered making that change in my campaign. But then I figured "What the hell - it's a game, not a sunday school lesson" and left it the way it was. Some of my beliefs carry over into the game, but I think that happens no matter who you are. > Here's the skinny as I was taught in sunday school: > > God created Earth, and all the souls that he wanted to inhabit it. All > the souls were individuals, but they were all the same type of spirit. > Lucifer was one of these souls, and after the rebellion (the natureof > which is an ENTIRELY different discussion), him and the third of the > spirits who followed him were cast out. The remaining two thirds were to > be born into physical bodies on earth and live a mortal life, as was the > plan. Angels (the word, BTW, meaning messenger for thosethat don't > already know) are mortal souls sent to earth WITHOUT a physical body, > and are sent to convey a message or perform a certain task. Not being > corporeal, they can remember the Heavenly Kingdom, and more importantly, > their orders. The word "angel" doesn't describe a type of spirit, but a > job. (BTW, Mormons really don't like to draw angels with wings; being > human, they don't have them, and being immaterial, they don't NEED > them.) Yep. True. > The souls that rebelled with Lucifer became the demons, who work against > God (or try to; they have a bad tendency to play into his hand.) They > never had a material body, and never will; part of the reason they > possess people is to see what they're missing. Again, true. Actually, this gives me some ideas for a Mormon-"flavored" patch for In Nomine. The Choirs are functionally the same, except that they are all "postmortal" (i.e. dead) humans who were chosen for their righteousness to return to earth and continue serving God. The resonances reflect certain spiritual gifts that they are given. They may still Fall, because they still have moral agency and are permitted to make their own decisions. Their vessels look like their original mortal vessels, although they may be given different-looking vessels at the discrescion of their Archangels (what about Jordi you ask? Simple: his Servitors are actually the spirits of dead animals who have been chosen to continue serving on earth). Demons also function mechanically the same. Vessels (although functionally identical to the rules) are the bodies of possessed mortals; when the demon switches Vessels the current one returns to his or her normal life (shedim do not get the short end here; they are the only ones who do not need to expend effort and XP to gain new hosts). They are going to lose the War, and are attempting to drag down as many others as possible. I could do more, but I will wait to see if there is interest first. > Now, for Moroni, he impressed God enough while a mortal that he was > later used as an angel. In IN, he could be a seriously bad-ass Saint, or > an actual angel who took a long-term role. There are problems both ways. Making him a Saint conforms to Mormon belief about Moroni (that he was human), but requires a rules change (so that Saints may possess a Word). Making him an Angel is simpler in terms of In Nomine, but somewhat changes who Moroni is perceived as (of course, since In Nomine doesn't conform to *mainstream* ideas about angels, devils, and religion, there is no reason that Mormons should be singled out for special treatment). > Aternately (this is NOT to interpreted as a knock against the Mormon > church! Really! Remember "game vs. reality"), perhaps Malphas invented > Mormonism, with its THOROUGHLY unconventional views on divinity, the > afterlife, and the nature of angels and demons, as a way to divide the > Christian Community. Alternatly, here is an idea I had for my campaign: Mormonism was creaed by Michael. Mormons hold the Archangel Michael in great esteem, we perceive life on earth as a continuation of the great War in Heaven, and we don't really see any need to comprimise with anyone about our beliefs. In Nomine Michael would make a good candidate. Now, why would he do it? Well, in In Nomine, religion is a tool. And to Michael, any tool that allows Heaven to win is a good tool. He doesn't trust Islam (since Yves created it), has given Judaism to David (he suits their attitude better now), and doesn't like Catholicism (no slam there, it's just that Dominic supports it and Michael doesn't like Dominic). So he created a new religion, one that stresses simple application of complex ideas, one that believes it is involve in a War between Heaven and Hell, and one that accepts Angelic visitation and miracles freely. It may be a while before Michael's new weapon is ready, but he is willing to invest the time if it means victory in the War. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:49:15 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Mormon angels >>>So here's the question: What would Moroni's Choir and Superior be? Obviously, his word is LDS (full form above...), but I need some help on this one.<<< In a universe where Mormons are right, Moroni would probably be an Archangel. If you just want to say the LDS was part of a divine plan to spawn a new religion, I'd be inclined to make Moroni a Servitor of Khalid...except that Khalid is currently vehemently opposed to any religion except Islam. Yves might be a possibility, except that after the Islam debacle, he's gotten out of the religion-designing game. David is another possibility -- the Mormons formed a tight community that defended themselves very well against early persecution. As a more offbeat possibility, I kind of like the idea of Marc deciding he wanted to sponsor a new religion...the Mormons have been _very_ successful economically, while maintaining the Church's principles. My vote for Moroni's Choir would be Malakite -- the Mormons are very much into strict moral standards and upholding virtue, and they're very evangelical about it. Then there's my cynical side, that says Moroni is a Balseraph of Factions (good friends with Elron, Balseraph of Kobal and Demon of Scientology). >;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:21:12 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light I've picked up two things on from this list (or In Nomine) that I think I would take issue at - Both Islam and Communism seem to be put in a bad light. I'm certainly not either, but I would be devil's advocate (perhaps that's not the right phrase...) Communism - in it's pure sense a movement that was spawned out of the repression of Joe Bloggs by the greedy millionaire shareholders, and the corrupt state. These were very real things in the turn of the century. Russia, where the first real communist revolution took place was particularly bad - at home workers suffered appalling conditions as soldiers were sent off too inglorious death because of some petty aristocratic sqabbling. For a while it worked, until communism became dictatorship (this happens in other forms of government). In Cuba, the communists chucked out a government who had more than a fair share of its funding from the American mafia. I would say that communism was a good idea that was subverted by a few corruptors of Malphas. Islam - One thing that a lot of people today don't pick up on (esp those who are U.S. based - maybe that's unfair sorry!) is HOW powerful the 13-14th century Catholic chruch was - this was a superpower - they could (and did) get rid of Kings & aristocrats, they owned vast amounts of land etc. One day they told everyone in Europe to go and butcher a whole load of (until then) pretty peaceful lot of arabs in the name of God. Whereas the christians butchered everyone - Jews, Muslims,and christians that happened to be the wrong side of the Hosporus, the Muslims were fairly sensible and even treated their prisoners not-badly (for the middle ages) It was only after about 40 years of a constant wave of Europeans trying to slaughter them all that the moderate muslims were overwhelmed by more fundementalists who are the force more prevailant today. If you want to blame anyone for the way the forces of Islam work today, blame Uriel and his bloody crusade! Roland (Read too many history books at school) - ----------------------------------------------------- Roland Ward Glasgow, U.K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:56:44 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Re: RE: nasty ... > > > Wouldn't it be sublime if.. the war was won, Lucifer was brought before the > divine throne in chains, Hell was purged completely. > > The angels prepare to settle on their laurels and withdraw from earth > completely when they notice that the level of evil on earth hasn't actually > lessened at all. The demons were supposed to be teaching mortals to do evil > things, but somewhere over the millenia the students surpassed the teachers :) I like this !!! Or even the humans started getting nastier to "balance" out the symphony... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Getting there(more from the Riddler) On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Adam Gastonguay wrote: > The game's almost ready...Just a few more questions on how to do this: > > 1. Because Kyriotates can extend their comsciousness to a number of > different dream scapes, do they need the Dream Walking attunement? They still cannot enter another's dreamscape without that attunement (or Song of Dreams). It's just that WITH it, they can multiplex. > 2. Blandine's Servitors Hearts are in her tower(I think). So does > that mean that when any of her angels return to their Heart, the go > Ethereal rather than Celestial? Her tower borders both realms; I'm sure she keeps the hearts in the celestial section. > 4. About combat....I have seen more than enough changes to the combat > system presented in the book, and since I have yet to play, I cannot > know which one will work best. Does anyone know of a system that > works best for them. I'm looking for plenty of realism, speed doesn't > matter as much since the whole game will be slow due to it being my > first time. http://www.concentric.net/~pkitty/nomine I think they're good. > 5. What: > Lives in winter, > Dies in summer, > And grows with its roots upwards? A snow-carrot! Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Official Martyr of X-Day! ::: Visit #subgenii on irc.sorcery.net - it's a beautiful place ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:46:44 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Nutty little angels? > Hm. Something just occurred to me. Is Gabriel still creating > new angels? What kind of angels does a nuts Archangel create? > Like mother, like child? She probably makes them in her few moments of sanity, either that or Sol makes them ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:58:50 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light > Europeans trying to slaughter them all that the moderate muslims were > overwhelmed by more fundementalists who are the force more prevailant > today. If you want to blame anyone for the way the forces of Islam work > today, blame Uriel and his bloody crusade! So true, that and the repression that they suffered during the era of Imperialism too! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:09:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Daniel Maberry wrote: > Even though Azzie would have an obscenely Uber Will score, meaning an > auto success with disgusting plusses to the check digit, IT'S STILL A > ROLL. And eventually, he's gonna roll Seraph-eyes. Triple twos? Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Official Martyr of X-Day! ::: Visit #subgenii on irc.sorcery.net - it's a beautiful place ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:00:22 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> The Pleasure Principle At 12:29 13/07/98 -0500, you wrote: > Allow me to suggest some additions: While >people can certainly be led by pure fashion-mongering, it will >lend spine to the chastity campaign if REASONS are given for >chastity. And of course "God commands it" is not going to work >as a reason for large segments of the population > >For the media campaign, these reasons would take the form of >plot situation in the TV show, pop tune, or whathaveyou. >Examples: > These all sound like useful avenues to explore! I think Laurence probably does favour the holy institution of marriage, but these are still good messages to be giving to the mortals. Now, if you can only find a way to make them appeal to the 'Yoof of today'... What I like about this kind of scenario is that you can drop PCs into it and give them free rein to come up with their own ideas, which are pretty much guaranteed to be more bizarre/ amusing than anything I could think up :) jo ps Thanks, people, for the kind words. I had a lot of fun writing it! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:06:16 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> David, groups and Fascism Earlier in this thread (I'm jumping in late since my mail-server has been acting up) someone mentioned David as being the "group AA". This is a bit too broad, IMO - its write-up says "His Servitors encourage people to join together in strength for mutual loyalty and protection, even to the point of forming street gangs and militias." IMO, that's different from being a general AA of "groups of people". There has to be a certain kind of purpose to the group - a sports team won't usually fall under this, since it's not about protection. It also says "to the point of", which sort of indicates that going beyond this is a no-no, or at least not supported. IMO, forming a Fascist state is well beyond forming a gang, or a militia. Now, the various US militias that pop up in the news (even over here) from time to time would fall under David, IMO. Mutual loyalty and protection, no question about it. Governments, or types of governments? I don't think so - seldom is a whole state governed by the "ideals" of mutual loyalty and protection -to that extent-. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:40:01 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Ineffible plans >> Plus, gamewise, accepting the >>idea of the One and Only Plan will take all the fun out of playing demons; >>after all, they're going to lose and spend all the rest of their existance >>in Hell. > >That assumes that God's plan actually includes the triumph of Heaven. >While IN angels geneally believe this (and maybe some demons), it's an >article of faith, not fact. hehe when you are talking Ineffible plans everything is an article of faith. I would have hoped that God's Plan would have at minimum involved all the Demons realising that they would be much happier not being selfish and helping to make everyone else happy and fulfilled. This would mean no one was in Hell, even Lucifer, but might still not result in a triumphant Heaven. We have no idea what it will look like, we just have to have faith that God means us well. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:57:17 +0100 From: "Ellen Kakkaratchi" Subject: RE: IN> tarot cards Okay, I worked half the night for you lot and finished them. Hope they are appreciated. Thanks to those who've said nice things about the first instalment. 9.Hermit Upright: humility, aloneness, self-knowledge, prudence, patience Reversed: self-delusion, dishonesty, fear, imprudence, rashness Destiny: sages, academics, light house keepers, rogue scientists who go it alone and discover great truths, genius types, monks and nuns, solitary artists, hillside farmers, Indian ascetics meditating on the streets of Delhi, hunger strikers and mountain climbers, jungle wildlife researchers and the voluntarily homeless wanderers. Any soul who needs no other to supply contentment, who thinks for themselves and does not attempt to control or influence others. True independents. Jordi's followers. Fate: Thieves and criminals, those who parasite society. People so insecure they can't exist without someone to 'mirror' them. Habitual liars, those suffering from Billy Liar or Munchausen syndrome. Serial killers, evil despots, people that go on shooting sprees. Any kind of sociopath. Children of Valefor or Saminga, Habbalah influenced types. 10 Wheel of Fortune Upright: good fortune, gain, beneficial outcomes, destiny Reversed: bad luck, dark fates, poor results Destiny: This one's simple. People to whom good things happen, either one big good thing or lots of little ones. Those looked after by destiny, perhaps literally. Lottery winners, that sort of thing. Fate: The reverse, those dogged by fate, perhaps literally, the agents of Kronos have got it in for them for some reason, perhaps just by chance. Bad stuff happens and keeps happening. It's beyond a joke, so maybe Kobal has something to do with it. 11 Justice Upright: karmic lesson, ordeal, balance, fairness, harmony Reversed: unfairness, imbalance, bias, frustration, bigotry Destiny: Great agents of justice - judges, attorneys, jury members, civil rights activists, perhaps even vigilantes. Also peace negotiators and arbitrators. Alternatively, those that promote harmony in other ways, singers, musicians and composers. This is, obviously, Dominic's field. Fate: People who work for or with unfair legal and policing systems. Corrupt cops, violent interrogators, torturers, bribed jury members or judges, bribers of court personnel, bribers of politicians. Fraud artists and con-men, biased journalists, malicious liars, lottery fixers, death-squad soldiers. Nybbas and Malphas may often be found behind these people. Balseraphs' protégées 12 Hanged Man Upright: sacrifice, helplessness, suspension of activity, gestation, payment Reversed: stagnation, stuck still, fighting the inevitable, egotism Destiny: People who will have to or have already had to make great sacrifices. Those who gave up organs to save siblings, who gave their last cent to the homeless, who will give up their lives to save a straying child from a runaway truck, that kind of thing. Mother Teresa types, saints in the making. Perhaps Michael would be interested in these heroes. Fate: Those whom fate demanded or will demand a terrible sacrifice, Sophie's Choice type decisions. Those who horde money or food or unnecessary possessions. Those who sit amongst plenty while around them people starve. Those who refuse to care. 13 Death Upright: great changes, irrevocable events, transition, cycles ending Reversed: slow change, partial change, incompletion Destiny: Those involved or who will be involved in great, positive events, such as the fall of the Berlin Wall or the famous Xmas day football match that took place between the opposing forces during WW1. People who initiate or provoke great changes, either on the small scale - local councils introducing effective recycling schemes, or on the large scale - the Greenham Common Women who protested for years, day in, day out, living rough, until the missiles were removed, suffragettes, Malcolm X, etc. Janus would find these people interesting. Fate: Closed minded conservatives (small 'c') and reactionaries, those that stop change occurring. People that deliberately hold up parliamentary papers so they run out of time and have to be scrapped. Luddites. Unrepentant sexists and racists. Oil companies that buy up patents for vehicles that run without petroleum, so they can't be manufactured. Anyone who spread disinformation in order to prevent change for the general better. Nybbas's area at times. 14 Temperance Upright: co-operation, moderation, cautious advancement, Reversed: excess, stress, forcing an issue, over-reaction, discord Destiny: Members of teams or societies with beneficial aims. Salvation Army soldiers, UN soldiers, UN politicians, charity board members or workers, rescue teams, emergency services and paramedics. Team players. Those working together on long term projects such as SETI or the Human Genome Project. Fate: 'I was only obeying orders' types. Brain-dead sheep, those in the sway of charismatic evil. Alternatively, drunks, drug addicts, those lost to excess. Those in the sway of Andrealphus or Shedim. 15 Devil Upright: obsession, oppression, self-indulgence, bondage, malevolence Reversed: release from bondage, overcoming handicaps, sudden self-knowledge Destiny: Those who help free others from bondage. Civil liberties activists, Nelson Mandela types, Amnesty International workers, hostage negotiators, people developing technology to improve the quality of life for the disabled. Anyone developing labour saving technology. Anyone offering free aid to people in need. Jean would be behind many of these people. Cherubim would support their actions. Fate: Those stuck in an abusive relationship, either as abuser or abused. Those lost in cults or pseudo-religious communities. Political prisoners who have no fate other than to die in their dank cells. Victims of the death squads, torturers and secret police of corrupt political systems. Extreme sado-maschochists. Enslavers and the enslaved. Anyone irretrievably stuck in a desperate situation. Any oppressors or abusers. Baal or even Asmodeus could have their fingers in these pies. 16 Tower Upright: disaster, change, chaos, trauma, big happenings, unexpected events Reversed: unsteady balance, instability, holding back chaos, desperate measures Destiny: Relief workers, emergency services, crisis teams, peace keeping forces. Anyone who tries to bring order back from Chaos. Novalis is very active in this area, I imagine. Fate: Those whose actions instigate or simply fail to prevent disaster. Unscrupulous corporate bosses whose pollute or poison, Third world governments whose inability to govern leads to mass starvation. Western world financiers who deliberately increase third world debt for the benefit of the already rich. Fire starters and terrorist bombers, people who drive too fast in bad conditions, people that assassinate arch dukes and start world wars. This is Belial's card, but Malphas and Baal may also have an interest in the mortals described. 17 Star Upright: hope, attainable goals, blessings, good health, inspiration, good omens Reversed: disappointment, depression, self-pity, morbidity, pessimism Destiny: Famous people who inspire. Celebrities who present a good example. Anyone who is looked up to and admired. Those that encourage others in their ambitions. Those that have succeeded in their ambitions. Stars of stage and screen. Role-models. This could fall under the purview of several archangels, but I think mostly of Gabriel when reading it because of the emphasis on 'inspiration'. Fate: Those lost to chronic depression, those convinced of failure before they start. Those who want to make others as miserable as they are. Those stuck in a mundane continuum of coping with no brightness or joy to light their way. Bored lonely housewives, teenagers that drop out and 'never amount to anything', the fate of the ordinary people who never try to be anything else. 18 Moon Upright: unconscious or subconscious processes, deep emotions, dreams and secrets Reversed: irrationality, hysteria, madness, violence Destiny: The great dreamers of the world, the inspirational artists and film makers, those whose works make us all stop and think. Those whose imaginations are powerful and visionary. Freud and Jung were Moon destinies, with their profound new theories on the human psyche. Blandine's soldiers and charges, or perhaps Novalis'. Fate: Any victim of severe mental illness. Anyone lost in their own nightmares. Catatonics, split personalities, anorexics and junkies could all fall in this category. Psychic vampires, those that drain the energy of others. Anyone undergoing such trauma that it will drive them mad before they die. Victims of great cruelty and horror. Beleth's prey. 19 Sun Upright: joy, attainment, satisfaction, obstacles surmounted, pleasure, high spirits Reversed: Failure to see the good, loneliness, clouded future, yearnings Destiny: Quite simply, those destined to be happy. It doesn't have to be some great or memorable future, just one of contentment and satisfaction. A long and healthy old age spent in a beautiful house in the country, perhaps. The perfect marriage. Lovely children. Success in the basic areas of human existence. This is definitely Novalis' area. Fate: Those fated to end life dissatisfied. Those whose ambitions will never be achieved. It is not their fate to fall victim to any horror or disaster, just to, ultimately, fail in their own eyes. 20 Judgement Upright: atonement, rebirth, rejuvenation, development, recovery Reversed: bad decisions, poor choices, wilful self-destruction Destiny: Recovered alcoholics and other addicts, those rescued from the clutches of religious cults. Anyone whose life has been or will be reclaimed from some miserable fate. Anyone destined to experience a miraculous recovery from a deadly disease. Survivors in the fullest sense of the word. Anyone saved or rescued either by themselves or other agencies. Fate: People who consciously seek evil. Satanists and death metallers. Active paedophiles. Perhaps readers and writers of the grossest horror fiction. Snuff movie aficionados and makers. These people don't need to be corrupted or manipulated. They freely choose their path downwards. Lilim and impudites like these folk. 21 The World Upright: completion, perfection, finished projects and quests, contentment Reversed: holding onto the past, insecurity, failure to learn lessons Destiny and Fate: I'm treating this card a little differently. When it is picked another card should be picked to go with it. The World means (in regards to this In Nomine proposal only) that the subject is soon to die. One way or another his fate or destiny will be decided. The companion card should elucidate what the fate or destiny is. MINOR ARCANA I have an idea about the minor Arcana. I really think the major Arcana provide sufficient fates and destinies for any game, so I suggest the minor Arcana are separated and used to determine the 'strength' of the fate/destiny. The suit chosen should help define the nature of the fate/destiny further (see below), and the number of the card, either the level of potential (a great artist or just someone who paints picture postcards), or the distance travelled towards said fate or destiny, that is, how close the subject is to achieving it. Ace is the least and ten the greatest. As for the court cards, these are the special individuals with the greatest of fates or destinies, see below. Here is a brief description of the suits and how they could be used to determine the manner in which the fate/destiny, as chosen by the major Arcana card, manifests itself. Wands: This is the dynamic, action suit which relates to passion, strength, warrior ways and willpower. Wand fates or destinies will be aggressively sought, perhaps battling the odds or many opponents. The subjects will be fiery, charismatic and full of self-propelling willpower. Swords: The suit of the intellectual. Sword fates or destinies will relate to endeavours more mental than physical. Those who seek their potential through writing, teaching, research or experimentation. Cups: Emotion and love, the ties that bind and the gentler side of life. Dreams and poetry, that kind of thing. Cup fates and destinies will be closely tied to the emotional life of the subject, perhaps connected to family ties, children or lovers. Pentacles: The physical and material, issues regarding health and wealth. Pentacle fates and fortunes are very much the stuff of the 'real world'. To do with business or nature perhaps. Pages: The apprentices, those that follow. People that are famous sidekicks would have had page destinies or fates. For instance, Hitler's henchmen, first wives, etc. Knights: Youthful exuberance and adventure. Those who go before. Those who set the pace and lay the way for greater destinies still. Those that foster genius. (If I am a giant it only because I am standing on the shoulders of others- Einstein). An example of a knight fate could be Idi Amin's mother, or Neitchze, whose philosophies strongly influenced some of the worst Nazi atrocities. An example of a knight destiny is Lorenzo de Medici (el Magnifico) who was a great patron of renaissance art and without whose money a lot of great art would never have been created. The Curies, who isolated Radium, could have had either a knight fate or destiny, considering what has developed from their discoveries. Queens: The partners. People that were famous in partnership with another would have had queen fates or destinies. Laurel and Hardy, Charles and Di, Peter and Joy Adamson, Ian Bradey and Moira Hindley, Bonnie and Clyde, etc. Kings: True leaders in their fields: Those with king fates would include Hitler, Jack the Ripper and Richard Nixon. Those with king destinies should include Mozart, Einstein and Mother Teresa. An example (picked completely at random): The PC group meet a woman on the streets of Berlin and the servitor of Yves asks about her destiny. I pick the Emperor, upright, and the King of Wands. Despite her seemingly mundane nature of this woman, she is destined to wield great power and do so wisely and significantly. Perhaps she is to be the first female chancellor of Germany? Okay, that's it "Love is for fools and all fools are lovers It's raining on my house and none of the others The sidewalks are full of love's lonely children The sidewalk regrets that it had to kill them" Nick Cave, Deep in the Woods I am, as always, Ellen (Lilim of Self-Indulgent Avoidance Tactics) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:38:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Angels and Governments Thomas J. Ladegard wrote: > > Daniel Maberry wrote: > > > Also, remember that Dominic's dissonance restriction is to never > >punish someone MORE harshly than they deserve. Think about that. > > Good point about the implied acceptance of punishing someone _LESS_ > severly than they merit. The question becomes whether this is to > allow mercy or something else. According to Dominic's expanded write-up, it seems to be to avoid making irretrievable errors. The write-up said something like, Dominic has his servitors be cautious about punishing, since, if they miss some of the guilty, these can be punished later, but you can't un-punish the innocent who were punished by mistake. I don't think that's mercy so much as the "benefit of the doubt" and "innocent until PROVEN guilty." But it does suggest that Dominic favors the British style of justice over the Napoleonic / Justinian style. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:57:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 3:23 PM -0700 7/13/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: [...] > >Even though Azzie would have an obscenely Uber Will score, meaning an > >auto success with disgusting plusses to the check digit, IT'S STILL A > >ROLL. And eventually, he's gonna roll Seraph-eyes. > > Winking Seraph eyes, really... (If you have your Superiors roll, then > it's a roll. If you don't, then...) > > But it's fun to think of it. Heh. (And might explain why he's not > attuned to Every Single One Of His Servitors.) Perhaps the Demon Princess of Nitpicking could explain how, with the absolute and frequently-reiterated limit the current Line Editor has declared on "No More Than 6 Forces Per Category For *ANYBODY*", a Djinn (even a Djinn Prince) can manage to have more than 6 attunements at a time? Or, if Word-Forces are making their way into canon, would a Word-Bound Djinn be able to add Word-Forces to the count of Celestial Forces in figuring the maximum number of attunements possible? Or does achieving Superior rank allow you to multitask long-term resonance effects the same way it does your physical or spiritual presence? York Dobyns ydobyns@princeton.edu "We will never have peace until everyone is willing to tolerate the existence of evil." -- Estellie Smith ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #855 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.