From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 15 10:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29932 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:11:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA30223 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:09:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:09:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199807151509.KAA30223@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #858 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 858 In this digest: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light RE: IN>assassins Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light RE: IN> Jewish history IN> The Pleasure Principle (ii) Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:58:45 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > I really don't think they care much about -things-, such as temples, > > unless they are Tethers, of course. They care about people, and the future > > of the world. David probably wasn't all that happy, but otherwise I don't > > think it was a big deal. All the people killed, OTOH... > > *blink* > > Not a big deal? 2000 years of Jewish guilt isn't a big deal? The state > of Israel destroyed by Romans not a big deal? Millenia of Diaspora not a > big deal? The Temple considered to be the Seat of God destroyed by > Romans not a big deal? I was thinking about the actual Temple. Why should they care? Because the Jews thought it the house of God? Then the destruction of -every- "holy" place should be just as bad. From what I've understood, Superiors don't care much about human religion, apart from Laurence and Dominic. And why would the Jews have a special position? Because they consider themselves God's chosen people? Many peoples think they have a special relationship with a higher being. I'm -not- trying to put the Jews down here - I don't think they're any better or worse than any other people. IMO, that's pretty much what the AA:s think to - they see individuals, not peoples. > Considering that one of the tenants for the coming of the Messiah is that > he will appoint the 12 Judges to rule over Israel and rebuild the Temple > of Solomon.... Well, the Messiah hasn't been given much room in IN in any case. The Bible is not canon in the IN universe. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:29:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light > I was thinking about the actual Temple. Why should they care? Because the > Jews thought it the house of God? Then the destruction of -every- "holy" > place should be just as bad. From what I've understood, Superiors don't > care much about human religion, apart from Laurence and Dominic. And why > would the Jews have a special position? Because they consider themselves > God's chosen people? Many peoples think they have a special relationship > with a higher being. I don't think you understand. The Temple is not just some place that some crazy Essene with a wild look in his eye came and threw a fit in one day. The Temple was, very literally, considered the House of God, built by edict passed down from Heaven to Solomon (at first) and then the Jews again when they returned from Babylon. Only the High Priest could enter the inner sanctum, which is where the Ark of the Covenant sat, until it disappeared. It was considered, quite literally I assure you, to contain the holy essence of Yahweh. It was declared to be the only true Temple in Israel. It was called the Holy of Holies for a _reason_, and not because people generally thought it was a catchy name that fit well with song lyrics. People didn't throw a fit over Jerusalam for 3000 years because it's nice beach front property. Consider, for a moment, if a nuclear bomb went off in Vatican City, killing the Pope, the Cardinals, and flattening the holy city like a pancake. It's very much same thing without the fallout, and 2000 years ago. It has the same massive destroying effect on the faith of the people - - and if you want to segue this into IN terms, I seriously doubt the Superiors would just flounce, shrug, and say, "Well, hell, it was just a building. It was a nice city, but there are PLENTY of nice cities." No. What people would do is scream Armageddon. > > Considering that one of the tenants for the coming of the Messiah is that > > he will appoint the 12 Judges to rule over Israel and rebuild the Temple > > of Solomon.... > > Well, the Messiah hasn't been given much room in IN in any case. The Bible > is not canon in the IN universe. Heh. No kidding. Neither is Ancient Near Eastern history. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:34:15 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light >> Not a big deal? 2000 years of Jewish guilt isn't a big deal? The state >> of Israel destroyed by Romans not a big deal? Millenia of Diaspora not a >> big deal? The Temple considered to be the Seat of God destroyed by >> Romans not a big deal? > I was thinking about the actual Temple. Why should they care? Because the > Jews thought it the house of God? This also fits with David as the patron of Judaism. The traditional religious reason for the destruction of the temple (ie. the one that doesn't have anything to do with the politics of the time) is that it was a punishment for disunity and brother arguing with brother. We know David liked to toughen up his proteges with a spell of adversity, and Solomon's temple had already been destroyed once by the Babylonians -- the one the Romans destroyed was the second temple. How better to prove to people that the seat of God is in the heart (or somesuch...). It could also be argued that Judaism had a much bigger effect on the rest of the world via the diaspora than it would have done without it. Having said that, the Western Wall seems a much better location to me for a communal heavenly tether than Notre Dame (which is a tourist trap, albeit a very pretty one). And I seem to remember that the Third temple is supposed to descend bodily from heaven when the messiah comes. So if you want to run with this, maybe it is being built up there by angels or virtuous souls even now ... jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:37:59 +0100 From: "Ellen Kakkaratchi" Subject: RE: IN>assassins > You're not entirely correct. The group you are thinking of was named "The > Assassins" (the actual arabic escapes me at the moment, which is 8:00am), > and they were a fanatical Moslem sect who believed that they were the soul > protectors of the Holy Land. Mostly, they specialized in harrassing the > pilgrims. Saladin didn't think too highly of them, in fact. Think of > them as the terrorists of the middle ages. [This is more or less a > clarification.] Assassins = comes from the Arabic hassisi, 'hashish-eater', the Islamic fraternity of the Assassins was founded by Hasan Sabbah in 1090 or thereabouts. They ate hash to give themselves a sense of unreality about what they did. I am, as always, Ellen (Lilim of Self Indulgent Avoidance Tactics) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:47:30 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > I was thinking about the actual Temple. Why should they care? Because the > > Jews thought it the house of God? Then the destruction of -every- "holy" > > place should be just as bad. From what I've understood, Superiors don't > > care much about human religion, apart from Laurence and Dominic. And why > > would the Jews have a special position? Because they consider themselves > > God's chosen people? Many peoples think they have a special relationship > > with a higher being. > > I don't think you understand. The Temple is not just some place that some > crazy Essene with a wild look in his eye came and threw a fit in one day. > The Temple was, very literally, considered the House of God, built by > edict passed down from Heaven to Solomon (at first) and then the Jews > again when they returned from Babylon. Only the High Priest could enter > the inner sanctum, which is where the Ark of the Covenant sat, until it > disappeared. It was considered, quite literally I assure you, to contain > the holy essence of Yahweh. It was declared to be the only true Temple in > Israel. It was called the Holy of Holies for a _reason_, and not because > people generally thought it was a catchy name that fit well with song > lyrics. > > People didn't throw a fit over Jerusalam for 3000 years because it's nice > beach front property. > > Consider, for a moment, if a nuclear bomb went off in Vatican City, > killing the Pope, the Cardinals, and flattening the holy city like a > pancake. It's very much same thing without the fallout, and 2000 years > ago. It has the same massive destroying effect on the faith of the people > - and if you want to segue this into IN terms, I seriously doubt the > Superiors would just flounce, shrug, and say, "Well, hell, it was just a > building. It was a nice city, but there are PLENTY of nice cities." > > No. What people would do is scream Armageddon. > > > > Considering that one of the tenants for the coming of the Messiah is that > > > he will appoint the 12 Judges to rule over Israel and rebuild the Temple > > > of Solomon.... > > > > Well, the Messiah hasn't been given much room in IN in any case. The Bible > > is not canon in the IN universe. > > Heh. No kidding. Neither is Ancient Near Eastern history. I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Just because people think it's important doesn't mean that the AA:s will think it is, much less God, IMO. Yes, they will care about the people, but I don't think they'll put any special significance on the Temple. If they did, I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned in canon. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:58:33 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > >> Not a big deal? 2000 years of Jewish guilt isn't a big deal? The state > >> of Israel destroyed by Romans not a big deal? Millenia of Diaspora not a > >> big deal? The Temple considered to be the Seat of God destroyed by > >> Romans not a big deal? > > > I was thinking about the actual Temple. Why should they care? Because the > > Jews thought it the house of God? > > This also fits with David as the patron of Judaism. The traditional > religious reason for the destruction of the temple (ie. the one that doesn't > have anything to do with the politics of the time) is that it was a > punishment for disunity and brother arguing with brother. > > We know David liked to toughen up his proteges with a spell of adversity, > and Solomon's temple had already been destroyed once by the Babylonians -- > the one the Romans destroyed was the second temple. How better to prove to > people that the seat of God is in the heart (or somesuch...). > > It could also be argued that Judaism had a much bigger effect on the rest of > the world via the diaspora than it would have done without it. > > > Having said that, the Western Wall seems a much better location to me for a > communal heavenly tether than Notre Dame (which is a tourist trap, albeit a > very pretty one). And I seem to remember that the Third temple is supposed > to descend bodily from heaven when the messiah comes. So if you want to run > with this, maybe it is being built up there by angels or virtuous souls even > now ... I'm out of my depth here, but I'll try not to make a complete fool or myself. Isn't there a tradition in Judaism that gave up on rebuilding the Temple in physical form, and thought it better to build the Temple of God in one's heart instead? I've seen this mentioned somewhere, but I have no idea how widespread this is - perhaps it's even the normal, modern Judaism. Does anyone know more about this? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:06:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light > Having said that, the Western Wall seems a much better location to me for a > communal heavenly tether than Notre Dame (which is a tourist trap, albeit a > very pretty one). And I seem to remember that the Third temple is supposed > to descend bodily from heaven when the messiah comes. So if you want to run > with this, maybe it is being built up there by angels or virtuous souls even > now ... I always imagined that the Messiah would come as the head of a construction crew sitting in a bulldozer. "So, where do ya want this thing?" But then I'm vaguely demented that way. There are Rabbis who are literally standing on the Foundation Stone, looking up, saying, "Any day now, any day now..." I know that my friend Laurel makes regular pilgramages to Israel because it's a good Jewish thing to do, and she doesn't have to spring for plane tickets. I do agree, 100%, that the Western Wall is a much better location for a giant communal tether to Heaven then Notre Dame. I mean, one place you have people praying to God to absolve them of huge communal sin, the other you have pickpockets. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:06:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Just because people > think it's important doesn't mean that the AA:s will think it is, > much less God, IMO. Yes, they will care about the people, but I > don't think they'll put any special significance on the Temple. In and of itself, a bullet is a small piece of lead of no great significance. If it is lodged in the body of Kennedy, or the Grand Duke, it takes on significance that even Archangels might get interested in. Here is just one way to look at it -- the Temple was the center of the religion through which ANY knowledge of the celestials comes to humans on Earth, however fragmentary or distorted that knowledge may be. Here is another way of looking at it -- the destruction of the Temple destroyed one religion and created two new ones. Before the Fall of Jerusalem, Judaism was centered there, and Christianity was still dominated by the original Jewish Christians, especially the Jerusalem congregation headed by James; you could almost regard it as still being a Jewish sect, though it had begun to acquire gentile members. (That's okay; the Jewish/gentile barrier was more permeable then; Jews made converts then, and there were "half-converts" called _sebomenoi_ if I recall correctly, who bought in to Jewish theology but did not go on to become Jewish.) The destruction of the Temple cut the umbilical cord and made Christianity totally its own religion. And the rabbinic, synagogic Judaism that arose after the Temple is also arguably a different religion. Yves HAD to know that that was an important event. It HAD to concern any Archangel or Demon Prince who cares what and how humans think about the divine. The only quarrel I have with Emily's analogy to the nuclear bombing of the Vatican is that it is not intense enough. > If they did, I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned in canon. I cannot share your view on the completeness of canon. Emily wrote: > What people would do is scream Armageddon. I think they DID scream Armageddon. Actually, if you look at the Olivet Discourse -- a discussion between Christ and his disciples on the Mount of Olives, shortly before the crucifixion -- it looks to many people as if Christ were predicting the Fall of Jerusalem and his disciples were confusing this with a prediction of the end of the world. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:09:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light > > Heh. No kidding. Neither is Ancient Near Eastern history. > > I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Just because people think it's > important doesn't mean that the AA:s will think it is, much less God, IMO. > Yes, they will care about the people, but I don't think they'll put any > special significance on the Temple. If they did, I'm pretty sure it would > have been mentioned in canon. Keep in mind the amount of Judaism thus far in In Nomine Canon - which is pretty piss poor, on history, on continuity, on the Old Testament, on the whole bag of hammers. I contribute it to a lack of Jewish writers on staff. We haven't exactly seen, "Jeremiah, Soldier of David" in canon either. Just because it's not mentioned in the books doesn't mean that Heaven just ignores one of the holiest places on Earth. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:12:35 +0100 From: "Ellen Kakkaratchi" Subject: RE: IN> Jewish history > In Nomine, thus far, has turned a blind eye to about 95% of all Jewish > history from Moses through to WWII, be it good or bad. (Kings? There's a > book of Kings? Where? Where?) So there has been, thus far canonically, > absolutely no mention of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalam. No Dome of > the Rock, no Wailing Wall, no Jerusalam, no Israel at all. Not that it has any connection to In Nomine canon, but as my In Nomine campaign is set in Berlin, I very much involve the WW2 area of Jewish history in the game. For instance, Beleth's tether is the Wansee Villa where the holocaust was first planned. It's now a museum, a kind of bleak testament to the existence of evil. Berlin is full of this kind of thing. I decided that the images that visitors see in there, glue themselves to the visitor's subconscious, causing nightmares for weeks after. The seneschal is Habbalite called Strife. She likes to appear in a starved human vessel, so weak it can't stand. Also, relating vaguely to previous discussions about David and fascism, in my game David's tether is a Berlin Jewish cemetery of holocaust victims (among others). Stones are laid on the plaques in the same way as flowers would be laid on graves elsewhere. Soon as I read about it I thought of David. Of the player characters, there is only one servitor of David, a Malakim. His role is that of a community Rabbi, someone involved in building and maintaining a sense of strength in the local Jewish community. There's other stuff I could mention, but I don't know if it's of interest to anyone. Also, I'm aware of what sensitive ground I'm treading on. I have never used Jewish history beyond the events of WW2 and what's happened in Germany since, but I would be quite interested in doing so as it would fit in well, as my campaign and player group has such a strong Jewish feel to it. If anyone has any ideas as to how I could do this, I would be happy to hear them. I am, as always, Ellen (Lilim of Self Indulgent Avoidance Tactics) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:47:19 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> The Pleasure Principle (ii) Summary (of what has gone before): Laurence has ordered that the Angel of Chastity take emergency measures to promote her word on earth, in order to counter recent advances made by Lust in corrupting members of the priesthood. Most of the other archangels have offered some kind of support, and Dominic has declared that corporeal intercourse is heretical for angels. Angelic influence is attempting to blitz the media, provide strong role models and attract the support of the young by giving chastity a new trendy image. More warlike factions are keen to take the opportunity to destroy lust demons. Enough strings are pulled for the new chaste soap opera to become the next big thing. It amazes many people by attracting soaring viewing figures. Nybbas is one of them. Even Andrealphas is distracted from his own preferred diversions when reports come in of proposed public demonstrations in favour of Victorian family values and banning of contraceptives to unmarried women. It doesn't take him long to put two and two together and he drags Zinnia out of her darkroom, 'Sort this out in that adorable little way you have. I have more important things to do.' Zinnia, her protege Soviel and her media acquaintance Erol (an impudite) will be leading the media assaults on the pro-lust campaigns. Despite what anyone might have heard about lust demons, they are all very hard-headed businesslike schemers who take the 'no holds barred' approach in both work and play. Zinnia and Soviel even spend unusually little time in sex-based activities themselves, preferring to pursue their own hobbies (film making and business, respectively) which is one of the reasons they originally hit it off. Erol begins by searching out the next season's schedules and beginning some investigations into the soap opera to find out where the money is coming from and where the support lies. Concentrating on the media angle, he can get any scandals which Zinna can stagemanage into every newspaper and TV report in the country, but not on a regular basis unless the scandals involve important people or are particularly good. He can also try to get some soldiers, servants or charmed friends into the filming as 'extras' or 'assistant script writers.' Scripts can be altered on the way between the script-writers meeting and actual scene filming. Zinnia and Soviel get working on their advertising blitz for a new chain of lingerie shops which is intended to raise a lot of publicity, make it very obvious to their master that they are being busy, and wear lots of black lacy underwear. They will get their models to do wild publicity demos and pay celebrities to wear their gear to nightclubs. Can the angels resist the underwear queen?! 1. Finding the demons Although several of the archangels put a high priority on some concerted attacks on lust demons, opinions differ on how best to smoke them out. After all, although every brothel and seedy strip joint is a tool of lust, they don't all contain demons. Some angels take the wasps's nest approach (kick the nest hard until some wasps come out, and then take them out until there are none left) and will want to harass their nearest known lust tether, and then track, tail and ambush any demons they can locate which seem to be attached to it. Others who may have demonic acquaintances will try to get information out of them, especially if their princes don't favour Andrealphas, or if the demon seems ambitious. Of course, there is always the old tried and tested method of total overkill. The combination of exposes of establishments which aren't quite legal with assaults from SWAT teams (there are always angels who have this kind of role) will have much of the same effect. Financially minded angels simply buy up land and buildings and have brothels converted to some purpose which is less susceptible to lust such as an abattoir or a charity shop. Even if it had no demons in it, they can still report that they have been doing their bit for the cause. Due to the sudden surge in demand (which is partly caused by Laurence mentioning to his Malakim that he _really_ wants to see as many lust demons extinguished as possible), sightings of lusties get more and more aggressively followed up, as if they were rare birds. Even fairly powerful demons keep their heads down, because it is being rumoured (untruly) that Laurence has taught every single angel on this crusade how to summon him and will turn up personally to take them out. In addition, more over-enthusiasm leads to quite a few mortal deaths. (NB. Most lust demons aren't hard-done-by tortured souls who are forced into pimping by their evil master (although he is pretty evil -- emphasis on 'pretty') but callous beings who rejoice in nothing more than deafening humanity to its own spiritual nature and any pretence at higher-minded exploits by reducing them to the level of animals -- which is one of the reasons Jordi is fairly neutral to Andre's efforts. They also have a tendency to treat mortals and other demons as their personal sex toys. Not all lust tethers are hardcore fetish clubs or exotic brothels. Lust flourishes just as well in tame middle class settings, although the demons do seem to like humiliating mortals. Examples: a) Latterly's: A seedy pick-up joint. It's a run down little club which has a reputation as a good place to go if you are looking for a one night stand. The lilim owner is quite lazy but gets by on simply introducing people to other people who are looking for sex, and slipping aphrodisiacs into the beer or making judicious use of songs of attraction. They do have special orgy nights, which would probably be very unimpressive to anyone who really was into the hardcore sex scene, but are quite effective. b) Bob's house. You'd never know it from the outside, because this looks like an innocent little semi in a quiet residential area, but Bob's house is a tether to the infernal regions. Bob himself has never quite been the same since a shedite of lust decided that he looked interesting, and after it finally got bored and left, his antics got so much worse that the house became an actual tether. His basic trick is to hire prostitutes and then drug them. They wake up in his cellar with the other women, chained to a pipe, as (unpaid) sex slaves. He does just about feed them. The seneschal is a balseraph, in the form of one of the women. Under its influence some of them eventually are freed but beg to remain as his slaves anyway, turning the place into a very bizarre kind of commune. c) St Mary Magdalene's Childrens' Home: A children's home which is notoriously riddled with sexual abuse & activity, both between staff members and children, and between the children themselves (once they reach puberty). Past 'inmates' keep in close contact with each other to ensure a conspiracy of silence and compliance, and some of them hold public office. ) 2. Demonic Lingerie Deciding that there may be no way to fight back quietly and allowing for the fact that many lust demons don't care for fighting anyway, Zinnia has decided to play to her strengths. Obviously, if this TV show is such a big deal, then it is necessary for the actors to be involved in sex scandals. She also uses Erol's influence to promote her own protege with a very high profile launch of a new chain of lingerie shops. The advertising campaign starts off quite mildly, but progresses to beautifully made but more and more risque posters and adverts (they start with nice girls wearing white bras and move on eventually to glimpses of fetish gear and a sense of 'danger' (which is the product line name)) which are deliberately designed to draw public attention into debates about freedom of speech and expression. Casual use of all kinds of subliminal techniques by some of Nybbas' more enthusiastic experts ensures that everyone is talking about it. Lust demons are also amazingly good at using mortal allies against angels and most will happily send children, battered wives, biker gangs or whatever they have handy to take the flak in their stead. 3. The political game Demons must be encouraged to pull out all the stops now in trying to either seduce angels personally, or ensure that angels who are still bothering with sex get caught on film and blackmailed. Once something has become a formal heresy, it also becomes great blackmail material. All of Andre's knights have slept with at least one angel and many with more, so there is no shortage of witnesses. In order to send back some definite messages, individual angels may also be kidnapped, drugged, have their wills worn down by songs of charm and then maneuvered into humiliating sex situations, which of course get captured on camera and sent to known tethers in unmarked envelopes. If any can be tortured or seduced into falling then that is even better. There is a reason that Lust is one of the strongest demonic words and it isn't because they look good in mud baths... Individual demons who have an axe to grind with Lust (or even ambitious lust demons who are looking to remove rivals) may offer information to angelic contacts. (Despite all this celestial activity, the mortal world appears less affected than most would hope. This probably could have been predicted. Celestials over-estimate the effect of the latest 'big trend' on a mortal world which is a bit tired of trends now.) 4. Sanctuary After a particularly over-enthusiastic angelic raid which hurt a lot of mortals, an impudite turns up as a tether to Novalis with some of its charmed mortal contingent in tow. It is pouty but obviously scared and asks for refuge, promising to behave whilst it is there. It doesn't seem to want to redeem. The mortals look pretty sulky as well (flower tethers aren't usually the sorts of places that lust groupies hang out). Laurence is going to be ticked if the seneschal lets them stay and he finds out... Once Novalis figures out how much violence is going on under the banner of this crusade, she will start to throw a bit more weight around politically, and nag Jordi into doing likewise (and there really aren't many people who can nag him into doing anything!) 5. Finally Eventually, Andrealphas may offer to call a truce (in fact, he is being quite hard-hit, but angels might not realise quite how badly) and seek mediators or messengers to send a very bland and rather snide message to the seraphim council which no-one takes seriously, but does seem to indicate an acknowledgment that some backing off from religious figures is on the cards. By this time, pressure on the hardliners from Eli's supporters is likely to be great enough that this is enough of an excuse for them to cave in and gravely accept the note as a victory... of sorts. Zinnia, Balseraph of Lust, Demon of Sex on Film (12 force Captain of Lust) Str: 6 Int: 6 Per: 9 Agil: 10 Pre: 6 WP: 11 Cha: +1 Vessel/3 (Human male) Vessel/1 (Human female) Role (Level 4, status 3: Harold Zwemmer, glamour photographer) Songs: Shields (Cor/2) Numinous Corpus (Acid/4) Tongues (Eth/4,Cel/4) Charm (Cor/2, Cel/5) Skills: Artistry/5 Seduction/4 Emote/3 Dodge/3 Small Weapon (knife)/2 Savoir Faire/2 Computer Use/2 Fast Talk/1 Attunements: Balseraph of Lust, Balseraph of Media, Knight of Lust, Captain of Lust, Dark Desire, Subliminal, Demon of Sex on Film Rite: Spend 3 hours watching hard porn, either on video or in magazines (1 essence) Attunement: It was as if I was there! The user may infuse 2 essence into either a photograph or a video involving sex; the first viewer to successfully make a perception check when viewing it will _feel_ what the film director intends the subjects of the film to feel (its not unlike a remote version of the captain of lust attunement). It isn't an emotion so much as a physical sensation. Zinnia doesn't believe in heaven. It doesn't really believe in hell either. It believes in its camera, and it believes in sex. It was quite a philosophical demon, on a mission to prove or disprove its own existence via increasingly vivid thrills and sensations, or by putting other people through such to see how they responded. Then it discovered photography in the 18th century. It was responsible for the first photographs of sex in Shal-Mari (although the mortals managed that one on their own on earth) which pleased its master and brought it to Lucifer's attention also. It asked for the word of sex in photographs and didn't really understand the nuances of the word it was assigned... until the invention of the moving picture. Since then it has barely stopped to rest; many of the pornography demons used to report to it, covering all the hard porn angles -- the films used to have to contain actual sex, but since a clever assassination of the demon of pornography, Zinnia has usurped a lot of 'glamour' work as well and is currently pushing to be in charge of anything which involves naked flesh and films. It is also in favour with Nybbas, due to some very hard working assignments with his own demons. Zinnia is a demon who has currently bitten off more than it can chew. Pornography is a very powerful word and Sex on Film is being rather stretched to cover it. It is vulnerable and a lot of other demons would like to see it fail. It also finds that the political pressure is turning it off sex (which is bad for a lust demon) and spends more time on the glamour side of its word, secluded in a darkroom and doing what it fondly thinks of as 'artistic things.' However, it _is_ genuinely talented behind the lens. It is fascinated by lenses, mirrors and cameras and will try to persuade anyone who is remotely photogenic to model for it. It pampers its models and 'stars,' using its infernal abilities to 'teach' them to get off on having a camera pointed at them, and then drops them like stones when it has finished with them. People it touches often become voyeurs, peeping toms or need to be filmed before they can perform. It is soft spoken and intensely passionate about its work -- far moreso than about any of its associates, 'friends' or servants. (Perhaps its creative streak could be fostered to lead it from the pit, but a word bound demon has a _lot_ to lose) Soviel, Lilim of Lust, Demon of Black Lacy Underwear Str: 6 Int: 4 Per: 6 Agil: 6 Pre: 4 WP: 10 Charisma +2 Vessel/2 (Human female) Role (Level 3, status 3: Helen Sovereign, businesswoman) Songs: Attraction (Eth/4) Healing (Cor/2, Cel/2) Motion (Cel/2) Skills: Seduction/3 Fighting/2 Dodge/3 Emote/3 Drive/1 Fast Talk/2 Singing/1 Attunements: Lilim of Lust, Dark Desire Sexy Black Knickers of Ass-kicking A pair of black lacy woman's knickers. They give a seduction bonus of +3, a fighting bonus of +3 and Corporeal Motion/5 (someone was playing too much Tomb Raider). Soviel has only recently encountered the adversary and received her word. It wasn't precisely what she was hoping for, but as Zinnia (and Lucifer) told her, she does look great in scanty black lace -- so it isn't a complete loss. She has a wide circle of adoring mortal acquaintances and partners and additionally has a good income from a little business she set up which sells racy underwear to housewives through catalogues and 'Ann Summers' style parties, which always get very memorable when the demon herself turns up to host them. She also has an almost unlimited supply of underwear and sex aids which are seduction talismans. (Maybe Andre thinks she looks good in black lace as well). Her next big plan, at Zinnia's persuasion, is to sponsor the opening of a new chain of racy underwear stores which are just clean enough to get high street locations, rather than languishing in seedy back-alleys. She had a brief fling with the balseraph and is still a little infatuated and irritated with it for having manipulated her so effectively. But that won't last forever. Black lacy underwear is going places! She is very unkeen on fighting (that's what mortals are for, isn't it?) but can be quite dangerous even when armed only with her knickers of ass-kicking. Anyone who has a fondness for black lace is a potential soldier, and angels should get used to opponents who seem to be wearing inordinate amounts of the stuff. She is (of course) drop dead gorgeous but dresses in a very severe businesslike style, as if daring people to take off her glasses and let down her hair. She does wear black lacy stockings though which may be a bit of a giveaway, and is actually at least as fascinated by the prospect of a good business venture as of anything more lust-like. She tends to play her cards straight and offer reasonable sounding deals -- and has no real qualms about selling out any other demons if she gets the opportunity. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:50:26 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Here is just one way to look at it -- the Temple was the center > of the religion through which ANY knowledge of the celestials > comes to humans on Earth, however fragmentary or distorted that > knowledge may be. *shrug* The AA:s haven't seen overly interested in spreading the true knowledge about them. > Here is another way of looking at it -- the destruction of the > Temple destroyed one religion and created two new ones. Before > the Fall of Jerusalem, Judaism was centered there, and Christianity > was still dominated by the original Jewish Christians, especially > the Jerusalem congregation headed by James; you could almost regard > it as still being a Jewish sect, though it had begun to acquire > gentile members. (That's okay; the Jewish/gentile barrier was more > permeable then; Jews made converts then, and there were "half-converts" > called _sebomenoi_ if I recall correctly, who bought in to Jewish > theology but did not go on to become Jewish.) The destruction of > the Temple cut the umbilical cord and made Christianity totally > its own religion. And the rabbinic, synagogic Judaism that arose > after the Temple is also arguably a different religion. > > Yves HAD to know that that was an important event. It HAD to > concern any Archangel or Demon Prince who cares what and how > humans think about the divine. But do they care? From what we've seen, whether someone believes in God or not isn't very important, it's what you -do- that's important. Yes, religion can be a tool that helps people do the right thing for the right reason, but whether that religion is -true- or not seems pretty irrelevant. > > If they did, I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned in canon. > > I cannot share your view on the completeness of canon. I'm not trying to argue that everything important has been mentioned in canon, but the conceptions of Christianity and Islam have been mentioned. If the destruction(s) of the Temple truly were of monumental importance to the Heavenly forces, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere, in some form. > Emily wrote: > > > What people would do is scream Armageddon. > > I think they DID scream Armageddon. Actually, if you look at > the Olivet Discourse -- a discussion between Christ and his > disciples on the Mount of Olives, shortly before the crucifixion -- > it looks to many people as if Christ were predicting the Fall of > Jerusalem and his disciples were confusing this with a prediction > of the end of the world. Whether -people- would scream Armageddon or not is not important to the AA:s per se, IMO. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:51:20 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > Heh. No kidding. Neither is Ancient Near Eastern history. > > > > I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Just because people think it's > > important doesn't mean that the AA:s will think it is, much less God, IMO. > > Yes, they will care about the people, but I don't think they'll put any > > special significance on the Temple. If they did, I'm pretty sure it would > > have been mentioned in canon. > > Keep in mind the amount of Judaism thus far in In Nomine Canon - which is > pretty piss poor, on history, on continuity, on the Old Testament, on the > whole bag of hammers. I contribute it to a lack of Jewish writers on > staff. We haven't exactly seen, "Jeremiah, Soldier of David" in canon > either. Just because it's not mentioned in the books doesn't mean that > Heaven just ignores one of the holiest places on Earth. Holiest to people, yes. Holy to Heaven? Maybe, maybe not. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #858 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.