From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 16 02:20:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA12472 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:20:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id CAA17709 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:22:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:22:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199807160722.CAA17709@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #860 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 860 In this digest: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> In Nomine Mix Re: IN> Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? IN> IN Canon (Re: Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light) Re: IN> Questions about Saints IN> Adventure Hook: House Party IN> Religions in Canon IN> The Western Wall IN> Falling from the fallen Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light IN> Servitors of Dominic who go too far Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light IN> Re: In-Nomine Mix IN> People of the Sun (was:Communism and Islam...) IN> Roles Re: IN> The Western Wall Re: IN> Servitors of Dominic who go too far RE: IN> Jewish history RE: IN> Jewish history Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Mix Re: IN> Questions about Saints ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:19:02 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Hello, Anders. >I'm out of my depth here, but I'll try not to make a complete fool or >myself. Isn't there a tradition in Judaism that gave up on rebuilding the >Temple in physical form, and thought it better to build the Temple of God >in one's heart instead? I've seen this mentioned somewhere, but I have no No, that's Christianity :-) I *think* it's St. Augustine. >idea how widespread this is - perhaps it's even the normal, modern >Judaism. Does anyone know more about this? Normative Judaism (I'll avoid using "normal", or "modern") believes that the Third Temple will be built by the Davidian Messiah, after a very bloody cosmic war. That's about all that the various groups that compose modern Orthodox Jewry can agree upon. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:26:03 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Yossi Gurvitz wrote: > True, but faith in One God is still essential for salvation, at least the > way I see it, though we could use Dante's version of Limbo (where the souls > of all the excellent men who lived before Christ exist. It's officially a > part of Hell, but those who reach it live rather pleasently, deprived only > of the visage of God). I can't find any of the specific references that I think I remember, but it does seem fairly clear to me that one does not have to have faith in the One God to be saved in the IN universe. If nothing else, using the term "Bodhisattva" as synonomous with saint suggests a broader focus. There's nothing wrong with running a campaign where this is the case, but it's a narrow base to build a wider thesis on. It still is eminently plausible that the destruction of the Temple wasn't a cataclysmic event as far as Heaven was concerned. Hell, I'm still coming at this from a Unitarian perspective; if I were to start running a campaign (which would require my finding players around here who were interested in this system) I'd probably keep in the back of my mind that no one is damned for eternity. There's eventually a possible exit from hell for everyone. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:42:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Mix In Nomine-feel songs have, indeed, been done before... To death, really. Check the archived digests? That said, "If I could Change The World" (Eric Clapton?) is *blatently* a Balseraph song. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:32:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance: Intentions or Consequences? At 11:41 PM -0400 7/14/98, Matthew D. Gandy wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> But they can personally beat up a human to the *point* of death. They >> just have to make sure their little bonbon doesn't *die*. They can >> threaten, punch, or otherwise abuse the human. A Mercurian can stand >> by while one is killed, but cannot offer violence to even the nastiest >> street gang that is surrounding him and explaining that they're >> Hellsworn who are just thrilled to be able to have their very own >> angel to abuse in unspeakable ways. > > Technically speaking then, Mercurians have a sure-fire demon-detection >technique: hit a suspected demon and wait for the note of dissonance. Keep >bludgeoning if it doesn't sound, apply the Corporeal Song of Healing if it >does. If they thought it was a human when they hit it, then they get dissonant. If they thought it was a demon and were *wrong*, I'd make 'em dissonant, but they *might* be able to fix it later. They're politicians, not thugs. Making it better after the fact only helps if they hit a human by accident. > Which leads to an interesting question: is dissonance simply a matter of >consequences (with the possibility of servitors of Destiny or Fate to acquire >dissonance at any given moment as they unwittingly push a mortal toward one or >other through direct action) or consequence weighed against intention (such as >the above case)--as has been discussed in the Dominic/Gabriel thread? I'm >curious about how others handle this issue. I think it's both, really. Acting against your nature is dissonant. If a Seraph tells what it believes to be a lie, it gets dissonant, even if it was mistaken and actually told the truth instead. Superior-dissonance is more likely to happen 'out of the blue,' like the Destiny thing. (IOW, Intention matters most with dissonance from violating one's angelic nature. Consequences matters with violating one's demonic nature and with Superior Dissonance.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:41:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> IN Canon (Re: Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light) At 10:06 AM -0500 7/15/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >> If they did, I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned in canon. > >I cannot share your view on the completeness of canon. Ditto. There's a lot of stuff left out of canon -- because, among other reasons, the Book of IN Canon (including the canon doubt and uncertainty events) would probably be 128 pages and resemble GURPS Timeline a lot. Also remember that a lot of IN has been mutated from the *VERY* satirical French INS/MV version, where Christianity (and Catholicism?) *WAS* true in certain major ways (and some of those were very warped...). There was an Archangel Jesus in INS/MV, I hear. Some of the lacks are likely there because the original material didn't have it. (And some will stay there until I can find a nice place to slip them in, as correctly as anything else in IN is...) At 11:47 AM -0500 7/15/98, Eeyore wrote: >Emily Dresner wrote: > >> [...] We have had continuous conversations about >> the complete lack of anything Jewish in In Nomine - it's a known topic. I >> have consistently attributed it to ignorance. > >However, you do so maliciously. No, she does so from discussions, where I've admitted I have ignorance on the topic. (Em may be hot-tempered, but she's gotten over being too mean at me. I just made bid eyes at her until she gave up. O:> ) I do want more Jewish stuff. I also want it to be the same mix of sympathetic and 'off' that the other Archangels manage. (Truth be told, I like the IN stuff better than some of my Grandfather's fundy stuff. Mind you, he listens to televangelists.) And I want it to be relevant (which it hasn't yet been, in the adventures, but the History in the APG is somewhat lacking.) >Why don't you try writing a supplement that would include >the things you want to see? This is my other tactic. And it has worked. Eventually, I hope that some stuff that Em's done up for Pyramid will be accepted and published. And when I get a Cool Idea for something that depends on Jewish histories and religion, I'll run it by her. (The squeaky wheel gets drafted!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:38:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Saints At 2:11 PM -0700 7/15/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: >I have a couple questions about Saints: > >1: When do they regenerate Essence? At dawn like angels, or at noon like >humans? Humans. >2: Does injuring a Saint cause a disturbance in the Symphony? Yes. >3: Is there a difference between Sainsts and Bodhisattvas? Sorta. For various reasons, Bodhisattvas are the ones in Heaven, between incarnations, and Saints are the ones on Earth. I explain this two ways: #1: angels got tired of saying Bodhisattava on Earth (the celestial word is much easier to say and spell) and adopted "Saint." #2: Laurence is in command of the Soldiers and Saints, etc., and he's very Christian-oriented. He calls the ones on Earth Saints, and the ones in Heaven call themselves Bodhis. >The terms are >often used synonymously, but Night music also provided two definitions. >According to p. 14 (The Bodhisattva), describes them as reincarnating >repeatedly, each time regaining the memories of their past lives as they >reach adulthood. But on p. 45 (The Saintly Character), they are the >souls of dead humans returning to Earth like a celestial, with a vessel >rather than a body, and a celestial form. Which one is accurate, or do >both types exist? Think of it both ways. They're sent back to Earth, in a vessel, and can go celestial -- when they grow up and remember themselves. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 20:22:50 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Adventure Hook: House Party Quoth Daniel Maberry on Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:45:48 PDT... >>From: Jo Hart >>RABBI: I know that it is wrong to beg and that you will come in your >own >>time, but I've been sent to try and get a timescale. There are people >out >>there who think that you'll be finished by tomorrow. And they say this >>every day. >>MESSIAH: Tomorrow? > >I saw "The Money Pit" last night, and all I can say is, "Two weeks." Between mention of Servitors of David and this semi-obscure movie reference, my mind started down a bizarre little path connecting a number of other devil-house references, and finally it stopped at this particular address. The grounds aren't very well manicured, but it's still quite a nice property if you don't mind fixer-uppers... This will work well with either type of Celestial group. The angelic group has the much more straightforward task, but the diabolical group's job might be considered more fun... THE HOOK: Through human (even mundane) acquaintances, the PCs hear of a grand old house in a secluded and very large lot. The people living in it are having some sort of difficulty, and occasionally, little Symphonic echoes can be picked up from various places if they observe it long enough. The house does not seem to be unsafe. Nay, anyone who inspects it will notice that it is in excellent condition. But anyone who stays in there long enough will suffer some accidents and mishaps, mostly through their own carelessness. What's more, every so often the stone statues in the garden seem to move around a little when nobody is looking. WHAT'S GOING ON: A long time ago, a Mercurian of David Fell in that house and was very nearly destroyed by the Malakim accompanying him. ALMOST, that is. Stripped down to a handful of Ethereal and one Celestial force, the Gremlin somehow took refuge in the house, and proceeded to inhabit it. (Diabolical Intervention can't be ruled out.) Over time, he started fixing the house. It was his job in life to see to it that houses were safe, he was continuing that venerable tradition. Only now, he was doing so at the cost (in Essence usually) of the tenants. They would suffer accidents, and while nothing would actually break in the house, the people living there would suffer. The imp, who's shortened his name to Borax (don't ask why), has melded with the house in such a way to turn the house into a living artifact. Since he never actually made it to Hell, he does not belong to any specific band. David's Malakim were still a little suspicious that nothing was quite resolved, so they left a Kyriotate of David, , to watch the house and try to determine what was going on. He hasn't been able to figure out anything, but he knows that there's something wrong with the house. ANGELIC ENDING: The best circumstances, and by that I mean the most thrilling for the angelic characters' *players*, involves the house getting sufficient power all at once from the PCs to do something horrible for the side of Good. So it's late afternoon, they're practically out of Essence (either from spending or having it sucked out of them), sunset is approaching (and the house gets another Essence), what do they do? Obviously they'll have to demolish the house, as quickly as possible. Where's that Malakite of Janus when you need one? >:) They'll love you for imposing that timelock on the situation. No, really. DIABOLIC ENDING: So here's a house inhabited by a demonling of indeterminate but growing power, in a building that could be turned into a vaguely serviceable, comfy little Tether for any Prince. There's that pesky angel to take care of, but that's small potatoes. And there are all the Diabolical PCs, each one serving a different Prince, and none of whom want the power to fall into another's hands. Can you say "Elimination Round?" The things they'll do to each other in order to get the gremlin into their pocket will probably boggle the mind. - --David http://home.bluecrab.org/~dwood "The tingling fresh coffee which brings you exciting new cholera, mange, dropsy, the clap, hard pad, and athlete's head. From the house of Conquistador." -Monty Python, episode 24 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:56:15 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Religions in Canon >>>You assume the writers have any conception what so ever of Judaism historically, religiously, or otherwise - and from what we've seen, I can pretty much say they do NOT. From conversations I've had, I've had to explain where the Temple IS, let alone it's importance as a centerpiece for a 4000 year old religion.<<< You haven't had any conversations with me, Dresner. Now, I don't happen to be Jewish, and I am sure you know a lot more than me about Judaism. But I do know some, and when/if I get the opportunity to write about it for In Nomine, I'll certainly do some research to learn more. (Heck, I might even ask you, if I thought I might get a non-vitriolic response.) I do know quite a bit about Islam and Muslim history also (I was an Arabic linguist for the Army, and I've done a lot of reading), and *I* have been trying to keep some of the more egregious errors out of canon. So far, there hasn't been a lot of opportunity to go into any real religious issues in depth. And remember that most of the canon you are ranting about was established in the main rulebook, which was essentially written by one person. Personally, I'd love to see a "Religious Sourcebook" for In Nomine, that would really delve into real-world religions in an In Nomine context. That's such a sensitive topic, the sort of thing where errors won't just appear in Murphy's Rules, they'll really _severely_ piss people off, that it would have to be done right, by people who really know their stuff. But since you are fairly knowledgeable on the subject, why don't you try writing something up? It would be much more productive than screaming about how ignorant everyone else is.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:56:25 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Western Wall >>>I do agree, 100%, that the Western Wall is a much better location for a giant communal tether to Heaven then Notre Dame. I mean, one place you have people praying to God to absolve them of huge communal sin, the other you have pickpockets.<<< True, ideologically. However, looking at it from an In Nomine Tethers point of view: (1) Laurence is in charge of the Host. I imagine he had some say about where to place Heaven's current corporeal headquarters. It may well be that the Western Wall (or the original Temple) was formerly the headquarters. And the fact that it's been moved may be one reason why David is kind of unhappy with Laurence. (2) The Western Wall is now in the middle of a large territory over which Malphas undoubtedly has great influence, with strong pockets of influence from other Demon Princes. Probably it just hasn't been able to maintain a strong enough connection to Heaven, or at least, the Archangels don't feel comfortable congregating on Earth in the middle of enemy territory. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:15:00 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: IN> Falling from the fallen Angels seem always to tread the slippery tightrope of staying holy and true to their nature, while demons seem only to have to look over their back and make sure their master/mistress is happy - they can't in effect fall again. However I would suggest that something that could happen to a demon that isn't really covered is the problem of a demon either becoming too self obsessed or too random. They would in effect become useless, or worse a danger to everyone - in both cases they would no longer be evil just chaotic. A demon might have to check that they don't ultimately "self-distruct". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:48:27 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Wooa! Okay so I was bound to get a response. Thanks for the date corrections - I actually meant 11-12 century, but was hey it was late when I typed it... I just felt that both issues I raised shouldn't be looked on just at the viewpoint they have now, or what current "opinion" says. The crusades does interest me as a subject - especially from a In Nomine point of view - just from the view that this was the first time that christian religion got this "organised". Then there's lots of material in terms of people initially with a good theory, but ultimately led astray in practice. And what effectively became the sacking of Byzantium is very Malphas. In Nomine is a game I feel you need to know a couple of hundred year of history before you start getting into it (or any arguements about it) :-) Roland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:53:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Taznoky Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light - ---Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > For that matter, how do the superiors react to outragous acts against > > God, such as the burning of the Jewish temple, 70 AD? Were the Romans led > > by demons? > > In Nomine, thus far, has turned a blind eye to about 95% of all Jewish > history from Moses through to WWII, be it good or bad. (Kings? There's a > book of Kings? Where? Where?) So there has been, thus far canonically, > absolutely no mention of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalam. No Dome of > the Rock, no Wailing Wall, no Jerusalam, no Israel at all. > > I find this highly amusing on many levels for various reasons, actually. > There's a certain part of me that is rather glad. > > If I had to make a call, I would say that the Roman Centurian who burned > down the Temple of Solomon in 70AD was a normal human and not led by any > demons at all. It was pure, outright human malice and hatred. Did God > really punish the Jewish people for being too covetous and greedy? Or was > it just an act of war? Will we ever know? I agree that IN don't take a look in any of their books about the jewish. I don't think that God punished them because they were greedy, you can see that is not that wen you look at Marc. And I don't think so that the romans were led by demons too, this is a normal thing from the symphony, humans can kill humans with no disturbancy because they are part of the symphony... Normal acts from humans. []'s Taznoky _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:06:10 PDT From: "Peter Martin" Subject: IN> Servitors of Dominic who go too far Triads of judgement are scary things to begin with. However, this one is worst than most. Composed of One Seraph, One Malakite, and one Elohite, this triad has managed to get EVERY celestial it goes after labelled a traitor, even a few who were clearly innocent. The "prove" guilt through whatever means neccessary, even entrapment and subversive tactics. To them, there are three types of celestial: The diabolicals, Traitors they have enough evidence to prove, and traitors they need more evidence on. Through intimidation tactics and simultaneous applications of their resonances, one cannot help but appear a LITTLE guilty, and since the Malakim carries out the sentence (always death) the moment any semblance of guilt is found... Terranaar Seraph Friend of Judment and Inquisitor Corporeal Forces 2 Strength 4 Agility 4 Ethereal Forces 5 Intelligence 10 Precision 10 Celestial Forces 4 Will 10 Perception 6 Vessel:Human/6 Songs: Attraction (celestial/4), Charm(celestial/6), Entropy(ethereal/3, celestial/4), Thunder/2 Skills:Detect Lies/6, Emote/3, Fighting/6, Lying/3 Attunements: Seraph of Judgment, Incarnate law, Advocate, Heavenly Judgment Distinctions: Inquisitor, Friend of Judgment Terranaar is deeply convinced that he, his two partners, and Dominic are the only celestials not steeped in heresy, and will go to any lengths to prove it thus. He generally uses Seraphic evasions and liberal, malicious, and creative use of his attunements and songs to bring a subject to Judment. His vessel is that of a tall, slim, black-haired man with savage gray eyes and a huge scar across his face. Allandrius Elohite Friend of Judment and Inquisitor Corporeal Forces: 3 Agily: 6 Strength: 6 Ethereal Forces: 6 Intelligence: 10 Precision: 14 Celestial forces: 3 Will: 6 Perception: 6 Vessels: Human/3 (Young adult male) Human/3 (Young adult female) Charisma +3 Bat/1 Wolf/2 Eagle/2 Insect(spider)/1 Insect(Fly)/6 Songs: Healing (Corporeal/4), Motion (Corporeal/6, Celestial/6), Tongues (Corporeal/4) Skills: Acrobatics/3, Climbing/6, Computer Operation/6, Electronics/6, Escape/4, Lockpicking/5, Move silently/6, Running/3, Seduction/5 Attunements: Elohim of Dominic, Ofanim of Dominic, Incarnate Law Distinctions: Friend of Judment, Inquisitor Allandrius is a spy. He watches his target relentlessly, picking out the tinies minutae of everything they do. Most of the time, those he watches have no idea he's there. He is often, quite literally, the fly on the wall. Another favorite tactic is to seduce a flase confession out of his victim through wired clothes and creative sound editing. Unlike Terranaar, his choir gains no dissonance for manufacturing evidence. Another favorite tactic of his is to force a celestial to feel guilty about something, invoke his resonance, and call in the cavalry. Tralus Malakite Friend of Judment and Inquisitor Corporeal forces: 6 Strength 12 Agility 12 Etereal Forces: 3 Intelligence: 5 Precision 7 Celestial Forces: 5 Will: 14 Perception: 6 Vessels: Human/6 Human/6 Human/6 Human/6 Tiger/6 Bear/6 Wolf/6 Owl/6 Pergrine Falcon/6 Songs: Entropy (Corporeal/6), Numinus Corpus (Acid/6, Claws/6, Fangs/6, Feet/6 Tail/6), Healing (Corporeal/6), Shields (Corporeal/6) Skills: Fighting/6, Ranged Weapon(Rifle/SMG)/6, Ranged Weapon(Pistol)/6, Small Weapon(knife)/6, Large Weapon(Katana)/6 Large Weapon(Staff)/6, Throwing/6 Artifacts:Fiery Sword (katana shaped blade), Holy Pistol/6, 10 Holy Bullets Attunements: Malakim of Judgment, Heavenly Judgment Distinctions: Friend of Judgment, Inquisitor Tralus is a one-trick pony, but he's good at it. One of heaven's most fearsome combat monsters, and utterly without pity, he gains incredible joy from slaying those deemed guilty by his companions. He has a sadistic streak a mile long, and those whom he dispatches often suffer horribly before they finally die. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:04:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Taznoky Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light > Consider, for a moment, if a nuclear bomb went off in Vatican City, > killing the Pope, the Cardinals, and flattening the holy city like a > pancake. It's very much same thing without the fallout, and 2000 years > ago. It has the same massive destroying effect on the faith of the people > - and if you want to segue this into IN terms, I seriously doubt the > Superiors would just flounce, shrug, and say, "Well, hell, it was just a > building. It was a nice city, but there are PLENTY of nice cities." > > No. What people would do is scream Armageddon. Now you said something interesting, this kind of Armageddon in no match to what the people who lived in America (South America specialy), Mayas, Aztescs and Amazonian Indians, they suffered with the colonization, and they don't even exist today, some have descendents but is no big like the jews. That was something that we can say that was demoniac by the part of the cristian church, the spanish sent Hernan Cortez to kill'em all. And he did so. []'s Taznoky _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:14:47 PDT From: "Peter Martin" Subject: IN> Re: In-Nomine Mix A few more for ya! (Mostly Metallica and Megadeth tunes) > Cherubim: U2, "Stay (Faraway, So Close!)" How about "Silent Lucidity" By Queensryche? > Ofanim: Sheryl Crow, "Everyday is a Winding Road" What about "I can't dive 55?" (Artist escapes me) or "Wherever I may Roam (Metallica) Or "Little Old Lady from Pasadena" (Beach Boys) Malkim: Don't tread on me (Metallica) > Elohim: The The, "Helpline Operator" > Kyriotates: Bjork, "Army of Me" Mercurians: REM, "Shiny Happy People" Balseraphs: "Almost Honest" (Megadeth) Calabim: "The Disintegrators" (Megadeth Habbalah: "The Unforgiven" (Metallica) or "Sanitarium" (Metallica) Lilim: "Running With thew Devil" (Artist slips my Mind) Shedim: "Sweating Bullets (Megadeth) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:09:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Taznoky Subject: IN> People of the Sun (was:Communism and Islam...) > Consider, for a moment, if a nuclear bomb went off in Vatican City, > killing the Pope, the Cardinals, and flattening the holy city like a > pancake. It's very much same thing without the fallout, and 2000 years > ago. It has the same massive destroying effect on the faith of the people > - and if you want to segue this into IN terms, I seriously doubt the > Superiors would just flounce, shrug, and say, "Well, hell, it was just a > building. It was a nice city, but there are PLENTY of nice cities." > > No. What people would do is scream Armageddon. Now you said something interesting, this kind of Armageddon in no match to what the people who lived in America (South America specialy), Mayas, Aztescs and Amazonian Indians, they suffered with the colonization, and they don't even exist today, some have descendents but is no big like the jews. That was something that we can say that was demoniac by the part of the cristian church, the spanish sent Hernan Cortez to kill'em all. And he did so. []'s Taznoky _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:14:37 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Roles How are roles created? I ask this because higher level roles obviously require a good deal of background material: birth certificates, awarded degress, thrid-grade teachers that remember you, etc. Do documents appear in their proper locations when the role is created? Does the Symphony alter humans' memories to fit the role? Does a role have to be started at a low level and be upgraded, with these elements slowly filling themselves in? Or, are roles all the victim of the ubiquitous courthouse fire that destroyed all previous records of their existence? Or do the documents show up, but there is no person that remembers the actions that supposedly took place at a date previous to the role's creation? This sounds reasonable until you consider how quickly most roles would deflate without this kind of background. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:29:51 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> The Western Wall David Edelstein wrote: > True, ideologically. However, looking at it from an In Nomine Tethers point > of view: (1) Laurence is in charge of the Host. I imagine he had some say > about where to place Heaven's current corporeal headquarters. It may well > be that the Western Wall (or the original Temple) was formerly the > headquarters. And the fact that it's been moved may be one reason why David > is kind of unhappy with Laurence. (2) The Western Wall is now in the middle > of a large territory over which Malphas undoubtedly has great influence, > with strong pockets of influence from other Demon Princes. Probably it just > hasn't been able to maintain a strong enough connection to Heaven, or at > least, the Archangels don't feel comfortable congregating on Earth in the > middle of enemy territory. The Marches (in Gabriel's write-up) even says that there WAS a divine tether in the Dome of the Rock, but that Belial and Malphas took it over. That would be mighty close for another divine tether, even if the area wasn't largely under demonic control, as Mr. Edelstein implies. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:32:31 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Dominic who go too far Peter Martin wrote: > Triads of judgement are scary things to begin with. However, this one is > worst than most. Composed of One Seraph, One Malakite, and one Elohite, > this triad has managed to get EVERY celestial it goes after labelled a > traitor, even a few who were clearly innocent. The "prove" guilt through > whatever means neccessary, even entrapment and subversive tactics. To > them, there are three types of celestial: The diabolicals, Traitors they > have enough evidence to prove, and traitors they need more evidence on. > Through intimidation tactics and simultaneous applications of their > resonances, one cannot help but appear a LITTLE guilty, and since the > Malakim carries out the sentence (always death) the moment any semblance > of guilt is found... Boy, it sounds like these guys would pick up an awful lot of dissonance really quickly. I suspect that we'll find them as Servitors of the Game very soon. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 05:36:05 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: RE: IN> Jewish history At 15:12 15/07/98 +0100, you wrote: > >Also, relating vaguely to previous discussions about David and fascism, in >my game David's tether is a Berlin Jewish cemetery of holocaust victims >(among others). Stones are laid on the plaques in the same way as flowers >would be laid on graves elsewhere. I saw that in Prague as well. It is an old custom not to take flowers to cemetaries (I'm not sure if it is because they are associated with celebrations), but I'd never seen the actual stone thing in England. >There's other stuff I could mention, but I don't know if it's of interest to >anyone. Also, I'm aware of what sensitive ground I'm treading on. I have >never used Jewish history beyond the events of WW2 and what's happened in >Germany since, but I would be quite interested in doing so as it would fit >in well, as my campaign and player group has such a strong Jewish feel to >it. If anyone has any ideas as to how I could do this, I would be happy to >hear them. > Well, Jewish history in Europe can pretty much be paced out as a history of periods of well-being & massacres (don't worry, we look at things this way also). Historically, the communities in Germany included some of the most educated and influential people, both religiously and in secular terms (there was a huge medieval Jewish community in Mainz). I can try to find out some references if you were interested (any particular timescale?), but they were never the rural shtetl types of the Russian Pale. Some of the big events to note in European Jewish History (I can check the details): Various countries throwing out their Jews in the middle ages English Massacre of all the Jews in York at Clifford's Tower in the 1100s (the city was boycotted completely by Jews up until about 15 years ago when the chief rabbi came with the archbishop of canterbury and blessed it or something) The 'golden age' of Jewish learning in Spain (can't remember the dates offhand but this is the Moorish Era and produced thinkers such as Maimonides and Ibn Ezra) Spanish Inquisition and subsequent moving of a lot of Spanish Jews to Holland (which was at war with Spain and also Protestant) Napoleon. (It is said of him that he, more than anyone, broke down the ghetto walls and forced Jews to take a part in secular society. He also convened a full Sanhedrin of Rabbis.) Pogroms in Russia and mass emigration to the West (end of the last century) WW2 Foundation of the State of Israel If you want to read about Jewish History, both biblical and beyond, I recommend 'My People' by 'Abba Eban' -- been a while since I read it, but I remember it fondly. It has been said that prior to WW2, Jews had never been so integrated into any secular community anywhere as they were in Germany. What surprises me a bit is why anyone went back to Germany after the war, although some people did. I wandered into the Jewish quarter in Krakow (admittedly not Germany) when I was there and the community they had seemed to consist of fairly old people, and some younger more dynamic (and more religious) americans who felt they had a mission not to let the old communities die out. I did write a few notes on a Jewish adaptation of IN. I gave it up as probably unplayable, because PC angels don't work, but if anyone is interested then feel free to email me for it. jo jhart@btinternet.com http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ "Buy old masters. They bring better prices than young mistresses." -- Beaverbrook (1879-1964) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:35:26 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: RE: IN> Jewish history > >Some of the big events to note in European Jewish History (I can check the details): > (Its too early in the morning for this :) Here are some I missed.) The first ever ghetto was in Venice (Ghetto is an Italian word. I have been there, and they still have 2 active synagogues inside the old ghetto walls. One for winter and one for summer (I kid you not). The community was a bit surprised when we turned up because there were a group of us and I don't think they'd seen so many young people in synagogue for a long time -- it seemed to me like an aging/ dying community but it has its own web page so maybe not. http://www.doge.it/ghetto/indexi.htm). The Dreyfus affair, which was one of the first examples of modern anti-semitism. This happened at the end of the last century when a Jewish army captain in France was falsely accused of spying for the Germans by anti-semitic elements in the french military and sentenced to life imprisonment and exile. Possibly most notable for the effects it had on French society and writers like Proust and Zola (who was a journalist at the time and wrote a very famous article indicting the french military called 'J'Accuse'). (An interesting article about it in Time Magazine is at http://pathfinder.com/@@SFdk7WKRGwEAQNqo/time/international/1995/950925/hist ory.html ) Also the Russian Revolution (A lot of Bolsheviks were Jewish. Trotsky was.) More associated with WW2: Kristallnacht. (so-called because a lot of glass was broken. An anti-semitic riot in Berlin ) Uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto A website about Wallenberg (http://www.raoul-wallenberg.com/) and one about other people who risked their lives during the holocaust to save Jews, including at least one from Berlin itself (which must have been SO dangerous) (http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/facts/hist/righteou.html) You might also want to look at http://www.hagalil.com/jewish/israel.htm which is quite interesting because it is based in Munich so will tell you more about Jewish life in Germany today than I could. It is _very_ different from the way American Jews think. A good general page of links about Jewish history is at http://www.igc.apc.org/ddickerson/judaica.html (You can even read the Tanach in hebrew if you really want) Hope this helps, jo jhart@btinternet.com http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ "Buy old masters. They bring better prices than young mistresses." -- Beaverbrook (1879-1964) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:58:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Taznoky Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- In Nomine Mix - ---Daniel Maberry wrote: > > >From: "Matthew D. Gandy" > > Cherubim: U2, "Stay (Faraway, So Close!)" > > Ofanim: Sheryl Crow, "Everyday is a Winding Road" > > Elohim: The The, "Helpline Operator" > > Kyriotates: Bjork, "Army of Me" > > Mercurians: REM, "Shiny Happy People" I think that this one should go to Novalis, ;-) []'s Taznoky _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:06:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Taznoky Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Saints - ---Daniel Maberry wrote: > > I have a couple questions about Saints: > > 1: When do they regenerate Essence? At dawn like angels, or at noon like > humans? > > 2: Does injuring a Saint cause a disturbance in the Symphony? > > 3: Is there a difference between Sainsts and Bodhisattvas? The terms are > often used synonymously, but Night music also provided two definitions. > According to p. 14 (The Bodhisattva), describes them as reincarnating > repeatedly, each time regaining the memories of their past lives as they > reach adulthood. But on p. 45 (The Saintly Character), they are the > souls of dead humans returning to Earth like a celestial, with a vessel > rather than a body, and a celestial form. Which one is accurate, or do > both types exist? 1. I think that is like angels, because the saints are now sodiers, not humans anymore... 2. No, they are not part of the symphony anymore, they have just died and ressurected! 3. I think both []'s Taznoky _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #860 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.