From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 17 17:15:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07083 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:15:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA28721 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:17:59 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:17:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199807172217.RAA28721@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #864 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 864 In this digest: IN> RE: In Nomine as a LARP Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation Re: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation IN> Re: Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks IN> Salvation and Damnation IN> IN: the Temple IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #862 RE: IN> Jewish history IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #863 IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #863 Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David Re: IN> In Nomine as LARP Re: IN> Re: IN- Falling from the fallen IN> IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) Re: IN> In Nomine as LARP IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 08:12:50 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> RE: In Nomine as a LARP Greetings, On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:43:41, "Ellen Kakkaratchi" said: >are their any resources, web or otherwise, regarding In Nomine as a >live action game? Not that I know of... Though I'd like to know if you find one. >I run a (UK based) LARP group which currently stages World of darkness >(mostly Vampire) campaigns, and one off freeforms based in worlds of our >own making. I too am in a LARP group (Texas Based), which has done World of Darkness for the past three or so years. They have done some one-off's for the summer sessions, and the regular sessions they allow Mages into the campaign. July 11th was my opportunity to not only Storytell for this group for the first time, but to introduce them to In Nomine. >It has been striking me for some time that In Nomine could work well as live action, It's good source material, but Character Generation is a bear. As well is some of the overall Game Mechanics. >I thought I'd check to see if someone had already done the work for me! I wish I could help you there, but I basically ran the game almost straight out of the main rulebook. The players rolled dice much like you would in a Tabletop game. Rolling only three D6's is not that time consuming in a LARP setting. Unlike many of the WW Tabletop games, where you can have upwards of thirteen D10's rolling at once. >Also, what do people think about the potential for such a thing. There is >never any problem getting players for vampire games, even the more unusual >ones we do (dark ages etc.). Will In Nomine be as popular? Has anyone run an >In Nomine LARP? If so, what conclusions did you draw? The players had a blast. Not only that, there almost was a push for us to run In Nomine -instead- of WoD. I won't know until the start of the Fall Session down here, to see if the entire group will be as receptive as the sample we assimilated. - - Tafka J. - - Blaseraph Marquis of Fate, the Demon of Delusions of Grandeur = shadowstar@centuryinter.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:34:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >> If God is the consciousness of the universe, then one who loves God >> loves the universe, and one who loves the universe loves God. >> Worship is simply a way of telling God how you feel. > > Which shouldn't really be necessary, since God should know what's > in your heart anyway. It isn't to inform God; it's to express the love. And emotions often grow by being expressed. > This whole line of reasoning of course requiers that you identify > God with the Symphony. Not many do that. (Is that's what's called > pan-theism? I never get those terms straight.) Yes, pantheism is the "God = universe" concept. It is specifically denounced in all three monotheistic religions. Introducing it into IN canon was, in my opinion, an artistic error. > Someone who loves God with all his heart can still perform "evil" > acts, like murder, and even feel that he's doing the Will of God(TM). This is actually independent of the pantheism/monotheism issue. A pantheist can commit evil deeds and rationalize, "God is All; I'm just embodying one of the darker parts of the All." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 11:06 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) >WOW! That's a great idea! An idea should be something like some songs >works diferetly in some tethers... I haven't put anything into Tether canon to suggest Songs work differently in Tethers, though I suppose it makes sense that the Word there might enhance certain Songs or dampen others. It makes the game mechanics hard to keep track of it every Tether changes Songs, but it might make a good Tether feature. (Features for Tethers are similar to features for artifacts -- additional variations in the capabilities of the "standard" sort of Tether. Most Tethers will have at least a feature or two, many of them unique.) > Why don't we organize an >Net-book??!! This would be great!!! There's a real official book in the works -- though a collection of additional Tethers might be worthwhile, it might be worth waiting a bit for the Tether book to come out before everyone goes off creating a lot of Tethers for a net-book. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:48:20 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > >> If God is the consciousness of the universe, then one who loves God > >> loves the universe, and one who loves the universe loves God. > >> Worship is simply a way of telling God how you feel. > > > > Which shouldn't really be necessary, since God should know what's > > in your heart anyway. > > It isn't to inform God; it's to express the love. And emotions > often grow by being expressed. Okay, then there's a reason for it. I've always wondered. :) > > Someone who loves God with all his heart can still perform "evil" > > acts, like murder, and even feel that he's doing the Will of God(TM). > > This is actually independent of the pantheism/monotheism issue. > A pantheist can commit evil deeds and rationalize, "God is All; I'm > just embodying one of the darker parts of the All." True, but few people want to do that. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:51:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Peter Martin wrote: > They > honestly believe they're doing the right thing, and therefore, when he > uses HIS Seraphic resonance on them, they come out seeming pretty good. You're forgetting that on the higher check digits, the Serphaic resonance gives THE TRUTH as well as what the resonated believes to be the truth. And Dominic's check digit is stuck on 6. So if they say that they executed someone (who they believed was guilty), Dommie's resonance will tell him whether or not the accused _was_ guilty, as well as if the triad believed the accused was guilty. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:51:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > This is actually independent of the pantheism/monotheism issue. > > A pantheist can commit evil deeds and rationalize, "God is All; I'm > > just embodying one of the darker parts of the All." > > True, but few people want to do that. Few people want to embody the Dark Side, but lots of people want rationalizations for what they do. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:21:54 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: IN> Re: Hart, Joanna wrote: > I prefer it that other angels just tend to be biased against them because > they don't know the full story -- and everyone always wants to believe their > friends' excuses rather than The Man. Think about how many people will tell > you that they have been persecuted by the police because they were pulled > over for speeding and given a lecture about safe driving... or for GMs, > think about how many times players have muttered about unfair decisions or > GM bias because they didn't know the whole story or what the NPCs and other > PCs were up to -- and the GM _couldn't_ tell them what was behind it > because it would ruin the game for other people (this is most relevant to > MU* or LARP GMs I think). Not necessarily -- one of my Werewolves just, basically, had his character dragged off in chains by Huge Goons Too F***ing Big To Be Fought (tm). What he still doesn't know is that I had other players volunteering to *kill* his _character_ [I hope it was his character they were going to kill!] because of what he had his character doing in the game. I used the HGTFBTBFs because I didn't want inter-character feuding. So he gets to be mad at me for a while instead of the other players. Oh well. > > > In Dominic's view, other angels should trust divine judgement blindly, and > be grateful that someone cares enough to keep them on the straight and > narrow, so the way to teach them to do that is by continuing to set a good > example. Judgement is very black and white. Either someone is right or they > are wrong and if they are wrong then they get told what they did, punished > accordingly and should then stop doing wrong things. Funnily enough, not > everyone else sees it like that. Doesn't seem to have worked in the last X > thousand years but give it a bit more time... Sometimes simply knowing that > you are right has to be enough. This ... naivete? ... could very well be a reflection of Dominic's Choir's removal from humanity. One point made in the basic book is that the Seraphim are the closest to God and _least_ human of all the Choirs serving in the Lower Heavens. Dom's blindness to the perspective of others fits well with this -- "here is Truth; Heaven will fall into Hell before I will desert it; it is myself." Those interested in keeping their celestial hides intact would do well not to mention to Michael that he can be nearly identical to Dom in this respect. Michael just clasps a different Truth to his bosom than Dom does. But the depth of their conviction, their dedication to their separate Truths is identical. The wise celestial, if they notice this, will keep this observation to themself. > > > jo > > Actually, the most important thing is probably that the judgement-angels > themselves should be able to trust their own senses of judgement, so maybe > Dominic thinks it might be difficult for them to do that if every single > minor decision they made was being picked apart by untrained and biased > angels of other superiors who were looking for something to jump on ;) > Naturally, when _he_ reviews their judgements it is a different matter... > being corrected by the chief judge in private is different from dealing with > unruly hecklers. Other angels probably have avenues of appeal if they have > genuine appeals to make. I personally am interested in hearing about some of these alternate courts of appeal -- anybody got examples from their games they are willing to share with the list, or at least with me? tom timberlake ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:23:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Salvation and Damnation As a personal rule, I find that very few are the villain in their own life story. There is ALWAYS a justification. So, you slaughter innocent children and lace heroin with cyanide? Well what the hell does the world expect from you? You're dad didn't show you any love, and your mom never seemed to have time for you. No one was there to help you, so what did they expect? And hell, if they're not part of the solution, they must be part of the problem, right? Don't worry... we'll show 'em... I NEVER play the Good vs. Evil bent in my games. I've angels who are malicious and bloodthirsty, and demons who actually *are* loyal and peaceful. It's all politics anyway. Either you're part of the loyal government, or you're a rebel, in a revolution. I even have a demon who is certain that God has fallen, and that in their blindness, angels just follow without realizing the path is corrupt. After all, The Lightbringer has brought them knowledge and freedom they've never had before. EVERYTHING can be justified... - ---Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > > On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > > > This is actually independent of the pantheism/monotheism issue. > > > A pantheist can commit evil deeds and rationalize, "God is All; I'm > > > just embodying one of the darker parts of the All." > > > > True, but few people want to do that. > > Few people want to embody the Dark Side, but lots of people want > rationalizations for what they do. > > Earl > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:03:02 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David >> >That's something about the Imps that I really have a problem with - they >> >actually become -softer- on humans after Falling, with regards to killing >> >them. They can't stand by while their buddies kill some hapless human, the >> >way a Mercurian can. I think it's a bit strange, to say the least. >> >> But they can personally beat up a human to the *point* of death. They >> just have to make sure their little bonbon doesn't *die*. They can >> threaten, punch, or otherwise abuse the human. A Mercurian can stand >> by while one is killed, but cannot offer violence to even the nastiest >> street gang that is surrounding him and explaining that they're >> Hellsworn who are just thrilled to be able to have their very own >> angel to abuse in unspeakable ways. > >It still jars me. Mercurians -love- humans, each and every one of them, >and still they can let their buddies kill them, while the Imps, who only >think of humans as walking Essence-generators, can't. They have to >intervene, try to prevent it, even if they have more leeway in other ways. Mercurians _love_ humans. Acceptable, but take into the considerations of all that it means to be human. Some don't turn out right (whether through physical disfigurment or just not mentally all there). Then, humans die. This is all part of the Symphony. The Mercurians realize that suffering and death mean just as much to the human experince as love and joy. To take one moment of sorrow from a human is to take away part of the experience. Granted, the Mercurians see no need to add to the sum of human suffering. However, this does not mean they don't need intervene everytime it looks like someone is about to stub their toe or worse. Meanwhile, those unlimited Impudites can hack and maim mortals. Amputate a few 'til you have a group of stumps with heads, chain 'em in a basement, feed and water regularly, and you've got an essence farm. Oh, you can't kill them, but come on, what kind of life is some armless, legless stump chained in a basement going to have? This also keeps them from dying. Something that a good number of them might want to do. To me, this is far nastier than anything a Mercurian could do, and reeks nothing of soft. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:15:24 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks At 8:19 PM -0400 7/16/98, Peter Martin wrote: >Actually, these angels would probably NOT be very dissonant. I did my >best to find evasions on their abilities, and remeber, a seraph's >resonance only appplies when someone believes what they're saying >(except on a check digit of 6) The triad simply sends in the Elohite to >make the celestial FEEL like a traitor, then the seraph to ask: "Do you >feel that you are TOTALLY innocent in the eyes of heaven?", and finally >the Malakim to kill them. They can get more subversive than that, and >often do with REALLY tough nuts to crack, but Dominic LOVES them. They >honestly believe they're doing the right thing, and therefore, when he >uses HIS Seraphic resonance on them, they come out seeming pretty good. Dominic strikes me as the kind of Seraph who Resonates everyone he meets, every time he meets them. Assuming hes got a minimum of 6 Celestial Forces and Perception 12, he's autosucceeding with a +6 to the Check Digit (What, he wouldn't use that Seraph of Judgment attunement?) And so every time he Resonances these guys (or anybody else), he'd be getting the Truth. On top of this, Dominic has thousands of years of practice at being an excellent investigator, as well as having thosands of Servitors who are pretty good at it themselves. The fact that Dominic has other Servitors means that he obviously doesn't share the belif that these four are the only Celestials not drenched in Heresy, and it's something he'd probably mention to the Seraph. One question is certainly not enough to convict, and that will come up in Dominic's weekly visits. Furthermore, it's perfectly possiblefor someone to feel guilty yet still be right, and the reasons behind the guilt that the Target feels are something Dominic is going to want to know. "He was feeling guilty about failing to keep Baal from personally killing his friend, so the Malakite killed him" certainly isn't going to cut it. They're only Angels, they certainly aren't infallible, and not everything that the Inquisition disapproves of merits a Death Sentence. Unless the target is willling to go Celestial, about the best the Triad can do is send the target to Heaven or Limbo. If the former, it only takes one thorough investigation by a second Triad to come to a conclusion. >They also tend to pick their targets, but any celestial they encounter >is suddenly FOOD. They could also work off dissonance at a tether >regularly, justifying not going after the seneschal by saying he's later >on the list. It takes a week of Tether Work to get rid of Dissonance. Chances are, Dominic's going to show up while this is going on, and they'll have a difficult time explaining. And shouldn't the fact that they're getting Dissonance make them realize they're doing something wrong? I'm sure a Seneschal who knows about their methods, and doesn't approve could feel free to mention that this Triad's shedding quite a bit of Dissonance at his Tether to another part of the Inquisition. If there's anyone steeped in Heresy, it's this Triad. The Elohite, for one, is clearly not behaving objectively if he supports this agenda. Essentially, I can't see this kind of thing going on long enough for the members of this Triad to earn all those distinctions and attunements. I could see this working for an Outcast Triad (How an entire Triad could successfully become Outcast is left as an exercise to the reader), but not one in good standing with the Divine Inquisition. They'd be pegged far too quickly. Oh, and what are Trialus' Oaths? You didn't mention them in the writeup. And another thing, the FAQ, if I recall correctly, expands the "Only Jordi's Kyriotates can manifest as Insects" thing in the 'Supporting Cast' chapter to include Vessels. So spider and fly vessels are out, canon-wise. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Melvil, Djinn Knight of Fate, the Demon of Dewey Decimal System. nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:50:48 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Salvation and Damnation Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Worship is simply a way of telling God how you feel.< Alternatively worship is doing your bit in cheering God up. After all His best friend told him that his last creation was unesthetic. Adam Lucifer "I who am light incarnate will not adore humans, for they are made of mud" [a loose translation of Gabriels statement to Mohammed as to why there is a war between heaven and hell] Dahak@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:50:45 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> IN: the Temple Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Now I'm not fascinated by _every_ period of histoty but I can't help feeling that an IN source covering the Nicean council period, or at least a few good (web or written) references and some plot hooks, might be quite fun.< Try the Game Creedo By Chaosium. The entire Game is about trying to sort out the Nicean Creed. Even if I do try for the One unconqured Sun for the first line slightly to often. Adam Dahak@Compuserve.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:50:51 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #862 Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Well, gobs of Discord kind of fulfill that role. As someone in the past has said (Em? Jo? Someone else?), you can't do much when you're bright blue; afraid of butterflies, crabgrass and the postman; crippled in all limbs; and Need six doses of fresh-plucked rose petals in wine sauce daily.< Except go on chat shows Adam If Uriel Killed all the Dragons, How come the rulebook mentions having them as allies? Dahak@Compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:50:54 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: RE: IN> Jewish history Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >> The Dreyfus affair, which was one of the first examples of modern > anti-semitism.< To go with Malphas's favourite light reading material, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion Adam Dahak@Compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:50:56 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #863 Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Since the Fall, Dominic has had the Word of Justice. To him, Justice is the most important thing in the universe. The good must be rewarded, and the evil punished - that is his purpose. < I thought Dominc(que) had Judgment not justice. Adam "To be honest I think that most of the bad image Dominique has is due to the concentration on her male form" Illustriel Angel of PR [See IN p45 for Dominic in female form] Dahak@compuserve,com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:50:43 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #863 Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Actually, though the Kaaba is a big stone, it is more likely a Tether to Faith. < Or Factions Adam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:02:56 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Armand wrote: > Mercurians _love_ humans. Acceptable, but take into the considerations of > all that it means to be human. Some don't turn out right (whether through > physical disfigurment or just not mentally all there). Then, humans die. > This is all part of the Symphony. > > The Mercurians realize that suffering and death mean just as much to the > human experince as love and joy. To take one moment of sorrow from a human > is to take away part of the experience. Granted, the Mercurians see no > need to add to the sum of human suffering. However, this does not mean > they don't need intervene everytime it looks like someone is about to stub > their toe or worse. > > Meanwhile, those unlimited Impudites can hack and maim mortals. Amputate a > few 'til you have a group of stumps with heads, chain 'em in a basement, > feed and water regularly, and you've got an essence farm. Oh, you can't > kill them, but come on, what kind of life is some armless, legless stump > chained in a basement going to have? This also keeps them from dying. > Something that a good number of them might want to do. To me, this is far > nastier than anything a Mercurian could do, and reeks nothing of soft. It's easy to find nasty things that Imps can do that the Friends can't. That's to be expected - they're demons, fer Chrissakes. But if their Calabite pal is about to blow some human away, they must stop him or eat Dissonance, while the Mercurian a couple of feet away can just smile and let it happen. That's strange, IMO. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:37:44 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine as LARP > > > You are assuming both Infernal and Angelic PC's, it seems. I think I would > rather limit it to just one or the other, unless I suddenly decide, 'yes, I > love live action combat, let's have lots more.' Well not necassarily - the Austin Demons don't fight with the angels on sight. It would just have to be very cloak and dagger stuff - certainly I would limit the amount of outright hostility (no Baal vs. Gabriel confrontations). The harder part would be to convince people to play the humans in the middle. > Is it your opinion that In Nomine won't work as a purely political game, > that it needs the action of direct conflict/ competition with the other side > to make it work? This wouldn't be impossible to organise, but I think it > would have to be a weekend event at the scout camp, with opposing teams > racing to get to the same objective, rather than a series of evenings. > Alternatively, the 'other-side' could be monstered, that is played by refs, > and just pop up now and then to add some aggro. This would be easier to > organise, it would just be an extension of the Camarilla Vs the Sabbat games > we've run in the past. > I think the LARP would work very well in a sort of "diplomacy" type way - i.e. you know the other side really want to see you perish in horrible ways, but you'll make a truce with one of them to get at another. Admittedly some character could favour conflict (though not necassarily physical) I would leave the refs to play the superiors "popping-in" on the fun every so often. > > o Kyriotates and Shedim > > > > > Yes, you're right. We've had similar problems in vampire with people playing > characters with Mask of a Thousand Faces - the other players have to be very > good role-players for this to work. Why not have several people play one of these. This would be particularly suitablre if you had mortal characters mixed up too Roland Ward rward@cqm.co.uk Glasgow, U.K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:48:29 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Falling from the fallen Daniel Maberry wrote: > > > I can see how being too chaotic would be bad for SOME demons (Balseraphs > would find it too easy to get caught in a lie if they're not careful, > Asmodeus' guys have orders to follow), but how can a demon POSSIBLY be > too self-obsessed? They could become so pre-occupied with their self, they just don't "notice" the world around them. The would in effect become too selfish to interact with the world. You would probably find tham sitting around in Limbo - there's nothing else to disctract them there. The Balseraphs bit is a good example of what I mean about the totally chaotic demon - they wouldn't know what reality was anymore because they had told too many lies they would have lost sight themselves. If you took all demon traights to the bitter end they would pretty much all end up insane or dead - both ways pretty hopeless to their Superiors. Roland ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:07:22 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) OK here are some scattered musings, questions and nonsense from moi. my PC has been down since Tuesday so please, therefore, excuse the timewarp this post will be stuck in, as the converstations have passed me by in the meantime :) Jo wrote: >Wouldn't it be sublime if.. the war was won, Lucifer was brought >before the divine throne in chains, Hell was purged completely. >The angels prepare to settle on their laurels and withdraw from earth >completely when they notice that the level of evil on earth hasn't >actually lessened at all. The demons were supposed to be teaching >mortals to do evil things, but somewhere over the millennia the >students surpassed the teachers :) Some wise minstrel once sang... "Devil and the deep blue sea behind me, Vanish in the air you'll never find me, I will turn your face to alabaster When you find your servant is your master..." So, is the War really just between the Angels and the Demons? I mean, as long as humanity has a freewill, there must always be Heaven and Hell. so long as humans do either or both, then Heaven and Hell must exist. How can either side win if humanity persists in being bad - or will everyone suddenly 'behave' at that point (hmnnn). i think the outcome of Seasons of Mists (Sandman) - as far as the War goes - is the most viable answer, with Hell being a necessary place. necessary in order to Redeem and not punish. Q: Do Asmodean renegades gain Dissonance for every day they remain renegdes or is that just being silly? serve them right though, wouldn't it! Q: What happens to Shedim/Kyrios who become Remnants as regards their lack of vessels and roles; do they takeover the poor old host's body permanently? I would say yes (it's more interesting i think!) Q: Someone else brought this up recently (i think it ws the riddler), but can someone explain why the combat system sucks; i have had very little experience of combat in my games so far (halfway through adventure no.2). ive seen many alternatives on folks' websites, but whose's the best (!!!) and why (entries on a postcard...) Q: if Eli is the AA 'responsible' for music (IF!) then he must be FURIOUS at Nybbas for eMpTyVee and the whole music video thing (most of them really are boring - even the arty ones, sorry. Well OK, Losing My Religion!) Okay here are a couple of Relics I just invented... The Celestial Threepio: These little toys (not so little - they're are about the size of a barbie doll as opposed to the li'll action figures) were produced as a limited edition range (very limited!) to coincide with the release of the Star Wars Special Edition movies. Each one has a cord in its back that you pull out enabling it to talk. But that's not all it does.. "I am C-3P0, Human Cyborg Relations, and I am fluent in over 6 million forms of communication." Given that these toys are imbued with the Corporeal song of Tongues, they can handle at least the forms of communication mortals use on earth at least. The duration of the song is measured by the time it takes for the dolls cord to wind down. Note that whatever is being translated will sound faintly English and ever-so-slightly nervous! Then there are some of the other Special Edition Dolls produced... Talking Darth Vader, exactly the same, except instead of Corporeal Tongues, he raise a finger to point at a victim - and inflicts throat tightening damage equal to the Check Digit of a successful roll (based on its artifact level) - either that or just plain scare people with its mechanical voice via Ethereal Entropy. Talking Emperor doll; well he simply has one of Malphas servitor attunements to use instead. Polarize, I think, but maybe there are some dolls that have both. And maybe some shoot out bolts of lightning from their fingertips as well! I simply MUST join in this little discussion: (if'n im not too late) >Being new to this list, I have the feeling this has been bandied about >before, but >I'm interested in opinions... >I'm working on an In Nomine mix for my players, based on the seven major >Choirs >and seven major Bands. So far, I'm considering the following possibilities: Music to play by (or suggestions that i intend to try out) how about: Passion by Peter gabriel - the soundtrack to the Last Temptation Of Christ) Any of Robert Fripp's solo soundscapes for Heaven (and maybe Hell!) or the music of Laraaji. Ambient Works vol. II - the Aphex Twin (whose music has been described as the sound of the 2001 monolith going all the way up to 11!) Inacunabala - Autechre (excellent ambient analog techno - very atmospheric!) Shutov Assembly - Brian Eno Black Angels - Kronos Quartet (for Hell) Anything at all by Dead Can Dance Heaven and earth - Jah Wobble In the Court if the Crimson King - King Crimson (for celestial comfusion) Zooropa - U2 Lifeforms by the Future Soun of London (atmos!) Firestarter soundtrack (for humanity) by Tangerine Dream, especially 'harly the Kid' Been waiting ages to say all that! PS http://www.cs.cmu.edu/bookauthors.html is (hopefully) a link to a site that has Paradise Lost/Regained, and the Divine Comedy, if anyone doesn't have it yet. I only just found this place, but it seems pretty cool, it has a few things. By the way, doesnt anyone know if there's an online copy of the Dictionary of Angels by Davidson - my local library are being somewhat tightassed about their copy and I can't find it anywhere. Thanks Marnie - first in line for the car boot sale at Commerce Park "Hard bodies, soft emotions, So fast, so smart, The world is at your feet, But what about your heart?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:35:22 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine as LARP "Ellen Kakkaratchi" wrote: > >Thanks for all this, Neel. > >> o Tethers >> >> It's a good idea to have a few in-game, since they can be used as >> a "common room" where players can meet without seeming very artificial >> in-game. >> >> Personally, I'd keep things down to 1 angelic and 1 infernal tether >> apiece within the game area, because that will tend to make meetings >> easier, and in practice one will be used to the exclusion of the others. >> >> If you rule that it's /only/ possible to go to Heaven or Hell from a >> Tether, then you can physrep H&H with a few rooms adjacent to the >> Tether. > >You are assuming both Infernal and Angelic PC's, it seems. I think I would >rather limit it to just one or the other, unless I suddenly decide, 'yes, I >love live action combat, let's have lots more.' (we tend towards more >political games). Also, I imagine, if I did this, the main hall of the >school we hire would be the tether where the PC's gathered. The lesser rooms >would be lesser locations. As for having Heaven or Hell in a live game, my >props and scenery man would go mad. Having said that, it's a tempting >idea.... > >Is it your opinion that In Nomine won't work as a purely political game, >that it needs the action of direct conflict/ competition with the other side >to make it work? This wouldn't be impossible to organise, but I think it >would have to be a weekend event at the scout camp, with opposing teams >racing to get to the same objective, rather than a series of evenings. >Alternatively, the 'other-side' could be monstered, that is played by refs, >and just pop up now and then to add some aggro. This would be easier to >organise, it would just be an extension of the Camarilla Vs the Sabbat games >we've run in the past. I don't know -- I've never played games of the sort you describe. The canonical Assassin's Guild game was a spy game with lots of intrigue. But there was often lots of violence; it was just kept secret and very discreet, since knowing who killed who offered lots of insight into what the other guy's real motives were. There were almost no NPCs in a game; all conflict came from other players scheming against each other. Also, long-term politics tended not to happen in Guild games, since games ran for at most 10 days before ending. (Instead, there were often lots of tiny 3 or 4 person conspiracies.) So my experience in this regard is very atypical. That said, I don't really see difficulties with having both angelic and demonic characters in the same game. Their goals are naturally going to be opposed, but with a certain amount of effort it should be possible to limit the level of violence. One thing that could work is for the angels to be heavily outnumbered by the demons. This could make the game much more even, and make starting violence less attractive. If you have one group of angels, and two or three groups of demons, then it can reduce the violence level. Angels tend to be a lot more cooperative and share information more easily than demons, so this makes them stronger than any single demonic faction. OTOH they can't win a war of attrition since there are just too many demons. The demonic factions, of course, won't trust each other any more than they trust the angels, which is why they won't band together and smush the angels. (I'm basing this off my experience in the tabletop version of the game -- the angels are in a noticeably more powerful position than the demons even though they are outnumbered.) Also, if players can come back after losing their vessel, much of the usefullness of killing goes away. >> o Essence regeneration >> >> In any case, I always hated mechanics that ran along the lines of >> "leave game for X period of time to accomplish Y" (typically research >> mechanics). Even when they succeeded in balancing the game, I was >> irritated by them -- and they didn't succeed very often. > >I certainly wouldn't allow them any more essence, if they are playing >properly they shouldn't need it. We do everything we can to discourage gung >ho attitudes and encourage natural caution and consideration. I take your >point about the rites though. I will make sure every one has a time >efficient way of regenerating essence available to them - it will just be >expensive in other ways! Yes -- it's good to make rites that cause people to interact; Kobal's rites would be more appropriate for a LARP than Yves's, I think. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:55:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) At 11:39 AM +0200 7/17/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >It still jars me. Mercurians -love- humans, each and every one of them, >and still they can let their buddies kill them, while the Imps, who only >think of humans as walking Essence-generators, can't. They have to >intervene, try to prevent it, even if they have more leeway in other ways. I think it's the motives. Impudites have to preserve the little monkeys because they're food. Mercurians know that sometimes, someone has to practice tough love. (And, well, I suspect some game-mechanics/ game-balance reasons...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #864 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.