From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jul 18 13:36:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03669 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:36:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA10612 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:32:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:32:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199807181832.NAA10612@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #865 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, July 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 865 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks Re: IN> Tether net-book IN> Tabby Big Eyes/Tabitha, Saint of Creation Re: IN> Tether net-book Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) IN> The Ultimate Malakite of Gabriel/Dominic Song Re: IN> Re: IN- Mormon cosmology (was: Moroni) Re: IN> IN: the Temple Re: IN> The Ultimate Malakite of Gabriel/Dominic Song Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Re: IN> In Nomine Mix Re: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) Re: IN> Tether net-book Re: IN> The Ultimate Malakite of Gabriel/Dominic Song Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:38:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks At 5:19 PM -0700 7/16/98, Peter Martin wrote: >Actually, these angels would probably NOT be very dissonant. I did my >best to find evasions on their abilities, and remeber, a seraph's >resonance only appplies when someone believes what they're saying >(except on a check digit of 6) The triad simply sends in the Elohite to >make the celestial FEEL like a traitor, then the seraph to ask: "Do you >feel that you are TOTALLY innocent in the eyes of heaven?", and finally >the Malakim to kill them. Sounds like punishing the innocent to me! (IOW, any triad pulling that while I was GMing would be on the fast track to dissonance, Discord, and leather wings... And/or being recruited by Gamesters.) >They can get more subversive than that, and >often do with REALLY tough nuts to crack, but Dominic LOVES them. They >honestly believe they're doing the right thing, and therefore, when he >uses HIS Seraphic resonance on them, they come out seeming pretty good. Remember, he tends to get CD 6+ on them [normal Seraphim of Judgment add their celestial forces to their Perception. Think what *Dominic*, *the* Seraph of Judgment, adds!]. They will report, "We found a guilty angel, Lord, and killed his vessel." And he will hear, "They sent the Elohite in to make him feel guilty, and then asked leading questions, as an excuse to smite one who was not truly innocent -- because they believe that all are heretics." And I dunno about *your* Dominic, but any Dominic *I* was running would go, "My, my. What budding Balseraphs I have here. You're going on public trial in Heaven, kids, and I have this feeling I'm going to wind up scattering your Forces throughout the Symphony in little mangled bits." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:04:39 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: IN> IN: the Temple On 17 Jul, Adam Canning wrote: > Try the Game Creedo By Chaosium. The entire Game is about trying to sort > out the Nicean Creed. Even if I do try for the One unconqured Sun for the > first line slightly to often. Heh. *Some* of us here have the original Cross & Empire Games set! - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:44:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Re: Servitors of Dominic Who Go too far; the creator speaks I've noticed a lot of Word bound celestials haves special rites, and special resonances. The more powerful the word, the more powerful the resonances. I extend this to my Archangels like crazy. Things like "Michael always hits, and he always strips a force away from beings with 18 or less forces", "Novalis can not be struck without infernal intervention by a being with 18 or less forces", "Dominic can scrutinize any judgement, either by his servants, or anyone else, and know if it was Just. (Not just if it seemed so at the time.)" So it's not canon. It's not breaking canon either. This is part of my "Fill in the blanks with anything, until SJGames fills them in for you" philosophy of nailing rules lawyers to the wall. Right about now, I've a bunch of nails in one hand, and a hammer in the other, and I'm saying "You think you've found a loophole? Would you mind standing over there please? Against the wall?" -Jayson - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 5:19 PM -0700 7/16/98, Peter Martin wrote: > >Actually, these angels would probably NOT be very dissonant. I did my > >best to find evasions on their abilities, and remeber, a seraph's > >resonance only appplies when someone believes what they're saying > >(except on a check digit of 6) The triad simply sends in the Elohite to > >make the celestial FEEL like a traitor, then the seraph to ask: "Do you > >feel that you are TOTALLY innocent in the eyes of heaven?", and finally > >the Malakim to kill them. > > Sounds like punishing the innocent to me! (IOW, any triad pulling that > while I was GMing would be on the fast track to dissonance, Discord, > and leather wings... And/or being recruited by Gamesters.) > > >They can get more subversive than that, and > >often do with REALLY tough nuts to crack, but Dominic LOVES them. They > >honestly believe they're doing the right thing, and therefore, when he > >uses HIS Seraphic resonance on them, they come out seeming pretty good. > > Remember, he tends to get CD 6+ on them [normal Seraphim of Judgment > add their celestial forces to their Perception. Think what *Dominic*, > *the* Seraph of Judgment, adds!]. They will report, "We found > a guilty angel, Lord, and killed his vessel." And he will hear, > "They sent the Elohite in to make him feel guilty, and then asked > leading questions, as an excuse to smite one who was not truly > innocent -- because they believe that all are heretics." > > And I dunno about *your* Dominic, but any Dominic *I* was running would > go, "My, my. What budding Balseraphs I have here. You're going on > public trial in Heaven, kids, and I have this feeling I'm going to > wind up scattering your Forces throughout the Symphony in little > mangled bits." > > > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:27:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Tether net-book > > > Why don't we organize an > >Net-book??!! This would be great!!! > > There's a real official book in the works -- though a collection of > additional Tethers might be worthwhile, it might be worth waiting a bit > for the Tether book to come out before everyone goes off creating a lot > of Tethers for a net-book. > > > Will we get a chance to playtest the Tether Book (thru Pyramid?) And if anyone has any Tether suggestions (I am currently fixing one that was made for New York) you can email them to me, and after the Tether Book comes out, we can then tweak it. For now, I'll stick it any Tether ideas on my webpage, seeing as how I update mine semi-weekly... And one day, I'll have Tether Ideas for In Nomine Detroit.. Graveyard Greg The Reliquary: http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/46/ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:58:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Tabby Big Eyes/Tabitha, Saint of Creation [Yes, well, this comes from a dream where I *was* roughly this character (except serving the Sword, go figure) and Rusty the K-9 of God. The name comes from Hodgie Big-Eyes, one of my cats.] - -------------------- Around the time of the Black Plague, there was a brave little cat who fought staunchly against the forces of Darkness and rats. Pet of a Soldier of Flowers, Tabby Big Eyes and her herbalist Soldier were mistaken for a familiar and her witch -- perhaps due to demonic targeting, perhaps just due to human superstitions of the time. The Soldier wound up in the Glade, and Tabby Big Eyes appeared on Jordi's Savannah. In the way of cats, she made her own way to the Glade, to find her human, and together they spent many happy years there. Eventually, her Soldier managed to persuade Novalis that she would be a better back on Earth, as a Saint. However, the Archangel of Flowers didn't think that the cat-soul should go along -- Saints are reborn and forget themselves while growing up, and a cat-Saint could easily be lost among the throngs of cat-dom in the modern world. Besides, Novalis added, Jordi was the one who should be in charge of animal Saints. So Tabby's human hugged her and petted her and, with Tabby's limited agreement that it was okay, left her in Heaven. But for Tabby Big Eyes, it just wasn't the same anymore, without her human. Vaguely dissatisfied, she roamed the Glade and beyond, through the Baazar, the Groves, the Eternal City (with a nap under the altar at the Church of the Sword), the Halls of Progress (which was interesting, but she got encouraged to leave quickly after standing on several keyboards to get better views of the screens)... Finally, she wound up in the Halls of Creation, and in a tiny garret somewhere in its attics. Waking up from a nap (cats can nap anywhere, even in Heaven, where sleep is unnecessary and not precisely as humans know it anyway), she discovered that she was the subject of a painting by a color-spattered Mercurian. Having nothing better to do, she waited until he had finished before stretching and doing a little claw-sharpening on the bed there. The Mercurian plopped down beside her and she claimed his lap as was her due, getting her ears rubbed most expertly. The angel said, "You really miss your person, don't you?" In the way of cats, Tabby allowed that she did, but more -- she missed being useful. Her human had gone away to be useful, while Tabby found her life full of glory, but without purpose. There were no rats to kill, no demons to fight, no dogs to tease. (Well, there were other animals in Heaven, but it wasn't the same...) What she really wanted, Tabby gave the Mercurian to know, was to go back and be useful. "Why don't you go ask Jordi about this?" he said. Tabby admitted, blushing as much as a cat could (i.e., washing her shoulder), that she'd left the Savannah almost instantly, looking for her human. She was a people-cat, and thought humans needed the guiding of wiser felines. Not quite what Jordi would approve of, she feared, and to be refused would muss her catly dignity painfully. "You've got a point there," the Mercurian said. "Hm. Do you want to go back in a cat-form, or a human one?" She hadn't thought of that. Thumbs, Tabby allowed, might be interesting. "You probably wouldn't be able to hook up with your human," he warned. She shrugged. She'd leave word with various angels of the Heavenly Choirs, if she found a way back to Earth. Her human would understand. "Hm," said the Mercurian. He picked Tabby up and wandered out of the attics until he found a passing Kyriotate. To the startled Domination, he said, "Can you tell the Glade-angels that Tabby Big Eyes has been trying to get to Earth, so if they can't find her, that's probably where she is?" The Kyriotate rolled itself in a bow, and cried, "Of course! At once!" Then it zipped away, all its wings aflutter, all its hands waving excitedly. And Eli said, "Well, that's taken care of. Ready?" Tabby Big Eyes purred her agreement, and then, for a time, there were only dreams. Rachel "Tabitha" Cooperson, Saint of Eli Corporeal 2 Strength 2 Agility 6 Ethereal 2 Intelligence 5 Precision 3 Celestial 3 Will 6 Perception 6 Body Level: 2 Status 2 (high-school student) Songs: Form (Ethereal/6), Claws/5 Skills: Artistry/1 (drawing), Climbing/1, Computer Operation/1, Detect Lies/1, Dodge/1, Emote/1, Escape/1, Fast-Talk/1, Language/1 (feline!), Move Silently/1, Running/1, Savoir-Faire/1, Seduction/1, Singing/1, Tracking/1 Servitor Attunement: Cat-Form. (Instead of one of his attunements, Eli decided Tabby would be happier with an extra vessel -- which is not something Saints commonly have... It causes the usual disturbance to change into it (7), but costs no Essence. It is Ye Generic Tabbycat, with all the skills at the levels given on p. 191, _In Nomine_. He also left her the ability to understand her previous species (see her Language skill), though it's harder to pick up all the cues in a human body.) Her human parents named her Rachel, and her fraternal brother Richard. Somehow -- no one quite remembers when -- she picked up the nickname of Tabitha. She excelled in drawing and singing, and has recently gotten the notion of being a runner, perhaps for the Olympics. At age 15, an Impudite of Gluttony tried to drain her of Essence while she was at the local Wal-Mart's. Not only did this fail miserably, it also awakened her memories of her existence as Tabby Big Eyes. And Tabby Big Eyes knew what one did with Impudites -- one eliminated them as one might eliminate a rat. She stalked her prey for several days, learning its habits and hideouts, and finally crept in one night in cat-form to poison the leftover pizza that the Gluttonous Glutton always had for breakfast. Since then, she's been closer to the usual behavior of Saints -- assisting humans to become better people. ("It's sunshine. Go ahead and enjoy it. Curl up with a friend -- that makes it better." "You don't need to talk to someone to be there for them." "Drink milk!" "Pretty doesn't need to be functional too; sometimes a pretty thing is useful because it makes you smile when you see it.") She hasn't made contact with any local angels, partly because there are no Tethers in the small town she lives at. But if demons show up in her territory again, well, she'll deal with them like any cat deals with a rodent... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:54:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Tether net-book At 4:27 PM -0700 7/17/98, Graveyard Greg wrote: >Will we get a chance to playtest the Tether Book (thru Pyramid?) Unless things go a lot weirder than I anticipate, yes, Pyramid subscribers will get the chance to playtest the Tetherbook when I get the first draft completed. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:04:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > to decide between two competing theologies -- Arian, which > regarded Christ as the first and highest creation of God but not > actually God Himself, You know, this would fit perfectly into an IN worldview where Jesus was Eli. Assuming, of course, you consider angels to be the first and highest creation of God, which is probably heretical in and of itself. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:39:48 -0400 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >At 11:39 AM +0200 7/17/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >>It still jars me. Mercurians -love- humans, each and every one of them, >>and still they can let their buddies kill them, while the Imps, who only >>think of humans as walking Essence-generators, can't. They have to >>intervene, try to prevent it, even if they have more leeway in other ways. > >I think it's the motives. Impudites have to preserve the little >monkeys because they're food. Mercurians know that sometimes, someone >has to practice tough love. (And, well, I suspect some game-mechanics/ >game-balance reasons...) Game balance is good, but I think the Impudite dissonance is still too harsh. I mean, the Impudite resonance is one of the least effectual of all the infernal resonances. Let's see what the odds are for an Impudite to suck out at least 1 point of Essence from an average 3 Will human, with 3 Ethereal and Celestial Forces. We'll give the Impudite an above-average 8 Will too. So the Impudite must make 2 successful Will rolls, and the victim must fail both of them (on the second, he needs to match the check digit of the Impudite on a success, too). So, 8-3 = 5, so the Impudite must roll a 5 or less. This is a 15/36 chance of success. The human needs to make a 3 or less, which is a 1/6 chance of success. To charm the human, the Impudite must succeed, and the human must fail, which yields a probability of: 15/36 * 5/6 = 25/72 To drain Essence, the Impudite must succeed, and the human must either fail or succeed and get a lower check digit (15/36 chance of that happening, if the human succeeds his Will roll). So: 15/36 * (5/6 + 1/6*15/36) = 5/12 * 65/72 = 325/864 Which yields a composite probability of 25/72 * 325/864 ~ 0.13 But wait! The average human has 1d-4 Essence, which means that 2/3 of the humans the Impudite tries to tap will have no Essence to steal. So on average this Impudite will have to try to drain around 23 people before it will get a single success, who will yield 1 or 2 points of Essence. Assuming that each person takes 10 minutes of schmoozing (in order to keep suspicions down), this means that the Impudite should plan on 4 hours of continuous effort to get any Essence. This is really pathetic -- there are /plenty/ of rites which make getting Essence easier than using the Impudite resonance. (And if you add the fact that no sane GM would let the player stall the session while making dozens of rolls for 1 Essence, the Impudite player is even further out of luck.) IMC, I changed the Impudite dissonance to "can't kill a human by their own hand," and I don't think I've damaged game balance any, since Impudites are already so underpowered. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:09:25 -0700 From: Killian Darkshade Subject: IN> The Ultimate Malakite of Gabriel/Dominic Song For those IN players who are familiar with the musical Les Miserables, nothing is more Malakite than "Stars" (sung by Javert). Sample lyrics include: There, out in the darkness/ A fugitive running/ Fallen from grace/God be my witness/ I never shall yield/ Till we come face to face and He knows his way in the dark/ Mine is the way of the Lord/ And those who follow the path of the righteous/ Shall have their reward/ And if they fall/ As Lucifer fell/ The flame/ The sword! and And so it has been and so it is written/ On the doorway to paradise/ That those who falter and those who fall/ Must pay the price! I mean...come on! What's more justice-obsessive than that? There's even a part where he makes an additional oath, right at the end: Lord let me find him/ That I may see him/ Safe behind bars/ I will never rest/ Till then/ This I swear/ This I swear by the stars! Actually, come to think of it, Javert is a good idea on how to run an overboard servitor of Gabriel. He's driven, compulsive, and unforgiving, but once he realizes he's screwed up, he's just as hard on himself as he ever was on any criminal. - ---Killian - -- "I saw the best minds of my generation running on empty, Superglued to the T.V., Dreaming of prosperity, Talking incessantly, Saying nothing, Sleeping on platforms at train stations, Sipping chemical cocktails, Alive to the Universe, Dead to the World." -- Meg Lee Chin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:20:48 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Mormon cosmology (was: Moroni) Well, I *had* planned to respond to this sooner. Alas, I had trouble with my server. So here it is. On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Daniel Maberry wrote: [Snipping my original comments on integrating In Nomine into LDS beliefs.] > AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > THIS MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE! Cool. Glad to see I haven't lost my touch. :) > A few questions: Would relievers be "pre-mortal" souls, those that > haven't been born yet? And what about the archangels? When did they > live, and who were they? Yeah, I think Relievers would be the "pre-mortal" souls; that is, any human or animal soul (maybe plants as well, although my understanding of that part is a little fuzzy) which has not yet been born and did not follow Lucifer in the War in Heaven. Archangels hit another interesting topic. I would assume that at least the first seven Archangels (those that did not Fall) have been born and died. That gives us Michael, Yves, Uriel, Gabriel, and Eli. In LDS belief, Michael is Adam. The others require speculation. Yves or Uriel could have been Moses. Yves would also make a good Samuel (attempting to warn the people of Israel away from the Fate that awaited them if they were ruled by a king). Uriel would also make a good Isiah. I think Gabriel was Noah in traditional LDS belief, but I'm not sure of that one. Eli? Hmmm...Seth? Good question, there. (Of course, nothing requires the Archangels to have all been important historical figures in their mortal lives, but it's hard to imagine that they wouldn't have been.) The other Archangels may or may not have already had their mortal lives yet. Kind of a GM call on that one. > Could Saints be a sort of halfway point between dead human and > "superhuman" angel? Perhaps becoming a full angel when they get 9 > Forces, like relievers... I'd use Saints to simulate individuals who have been "translated" (that is, who have been taken into Heaven without having first died). That is where John the Revelator and the Three Nephites would fit. They haven't died yet (so they aren't angels in any but the most literal sense), but they are something more than mortal. > Also, as for the role of Jesus in all this, I'd actually rename Yves. > Your opinion? For the most part (assuming that you want Jesus to have an Archangel-like role in the Mormon-flavor game), I'd change a rite or two and use Eli. He has the right feel for it. But, I don't think I'd use Him like that. I'd leave Him out of the picture and concentrate on the Archangels and the angels. [Snip my comments about demons using posessed mortals as vessels.] > Hmm... I dunno about this. Instead of vessels representing possession, > how about this: When Soldiers of Hell die, the demons get their body AND > their soul (perhaps the same thing with human sacrifice, too). Thus > their vessels can go without nutrition and sleep not becuase they're > divinely powered, but because they're already dead. They remain intact > and can be animated to seem alive, but if anyone performed an autopsy > after corporeally taking out a demon... Also, the Song of Possession > would be alot more common, since there's probably less soldiers to > provide bodies than there are demon who want one. Saminga would probably > have more pull, being (in all likelyhood) the guy that invented this > whole vessel process. Perhaps demons want animal sacrifices so they can > get animal vessels. I like that. It sounds much more elegant, and it provides a creepier feel for Soldier-level campaigns ("That man you just killed? The autopsy indicates that he's been dead for over three weeks, based on the progress of decay in his body."). It *would* give Saminga a great deal of power, wouldn't it? > I suppose demonlings, imps and gremlins would be the same sort of spirit > as relievers, that is "coulda-woulda-shoulda been" human souls, that > haven't been promoted yet. Yeah, basically Relievers that Fell. A few other things would need to change as well. Souls cannot actually be destroyed (although I would rule that Forces can still be stripped, mostly for game purposes). A Force is lost into the Symphony for the time being (it will eventually be restored, but not during the course of the game). Demons are souls which either Fell during the War in Heaven, or who were born on earth and then "Fell" later and joined the demons after death. > >I could do more, but I will wait to see if there is interest first. > > INTEREST! INTEREST! INTEREST! Well, I'm also thinking about a write-up of Mormon religion in In Nomine (what the various Archangels and Demon Princes think of it, how the Mormon perception of history could fit into canon, and so forth). I'll think about it and see what I come up with. > Something to work on: Mormon salvation beliefs vs. Destiny and Fate. Fairly compatable, actually. Destiny is the greatest thing a human can achieve, while Fate is the worst thing a human can do. Neither is required for judgement, and achieving your Destiny is no guarantee of a place in Heaven (Judas Iscariot, for instance). [Snip my comment that Michael could have created the Mormon religion in In Nomine.] > Now THAT'S cool. Perhaps he did it they way he did, with the Mormon > views on pre-colonial American history, was to appeal to the "wild west" > americans (his target flock) while keeping it nominally christian (it's > easier to convert people to a superficially similar religion than an > entirely different one). I dunno yet. I'll specualte, and throw my ideas on that out later. > So, in this idea, would Moroni be a Saint? Being a character from the > Book of Mormon, myou'd have to decide how much of it was true. Perhaps > it's a paraphrased version of Native American history? I would lean towards making Moroni a Saint in canon, if he was used at all. I'd make the Book of Mormon a fairly accurate record of what happened in Central America (in much the same way In Nomine treats the Bible as being a fairly accurate record of what happened in the Middle East, from Heaven's point of view), although the names of the various peoples were simplified into Lamanites and Nephites for simplicities' sake, and the causes for the warfare were also simplified for purposes of making moral lessons. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:51:04 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> IN: the Temple At 15:50 17/07/98 -0400, you wrote: >Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Try the Game Creedo By Chaosium. The entire Game is about trying to sort >out the Nicean Creed. Even if I do try for the One unconqured Sun for the >first line slightly to often. > *weep* I think it is out of print. I played a game once with some friends and by some very fast talking managed to get them to all vote for 'Many Gods' (it involved convincing the proponents of 3 in one, and the duality that 'many gods' covered both of their objectives so was a nice safe neutral wording :) ). jo jhart@btinternet.com http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ "Buy old masters. They bring better prices than young mistresses." -- Beaverbrook (1879-1964) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:38:00 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> The Ultimate Malakite of Gabriel/Dominic Song > For those IN players who are familiar with the musical Les > Miserables, nothing is more Malakite than "Stars" (sung by Javert). > Sample lyrics include: > There, out in the darkness/ A fugitive running/ Fallen from > grace/God be my witness/ I never shall yield/ Till we come face to face And of course the demon reply would be "That Malik thinks he's something, but its me who runs this town..... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:26:41 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > >At 11:39 AM +0200 7/17/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > >>It still jars me. Mercurians -love- humans, each and every one of them, > >>and still they can let their buddies kill them, while the Imps, who only > >>think of humans as walking Essence-generators, can't. They have to > >>intervene, try to prevent it, even if they have more leeway in other ways. > > > >I think it's the motives. Impudites have to preserve the little > >monkeys because they're food. Mercurians know that sometimes, someone > >has to practice tough love. (And, well, I suspect some game-mechanics/ > >game-balance reasons...) > > Game balance is good, but I think the Impudite dissonance is still too > harsh. I mean, the Impudite resonance is one of the least effectual of > all the infernal resonances. > > Let's see what the odds are for an Impudite to suck out at least > 1 point of Essence from an average 3 Will human, with 3 Ethereal and > Celestial Forces. We'll give the Impudite an above-average 8 Will too. > > So the Impudite must make 2 successful Will rolls, and the victim > must fail both of them (on the second, he needs to match the check > digit of the Impudite on a success, too). > > So, 8-3 = 5, so the Impudite must roll a 5 or less. This is a 15/36 > chance of success. The human needs to make a 3 or less, which is a 1/6 > chance of success. Actually, the chance of rolling 5 or less on 2d6 is 1/36+2/36+3/36+4/36=10/36, and the chance of rolling 3 or less is 1/36+2/36=3/36=1/12. > To charm the human, the Impudite must succeed, and the human must fail, > which yields a probability of: > > 15/36 * 5/6 = 25/72 10/36 * 11/12 = 110/432, or ~0.25 > To drain Essence, the Impudite must succeed, and the human must either > fail or succeed and get a lower check digit (15/36 chance of that > happening, if the human succeeds his Will roll). So: > > 15/36 * (5/6 + 1/6*15/36) = 5/12 * 65/72 = 325/864 10/36 * (11/12 + 1/12 * 15/36) = 110/432 + 150/15552 = 4110/15552 = 685/2592, or ~0.26 (I'm pretty sure that's right, but my calculator won't do fractions with divisors (if that's the correct word in English) over 999.) > Which yields a composite probability of > > 25/72 * 325/864 ~ 0.13 110/432 * 685/2592, or ~0.067, which is pretty close to 1/15. > But wait! The average human has 1d-4 Essence, which means that 2/3 > of the humans the Impudite tries to tap will have no Essence to steal. > So on average this Impudite will have to try to drain around 23 people > before it will get a single success, who will yield 1 or 2 points > of Essence. Every third human has Essence, so there's about a 1/45 chance of gaining Essence from any single try. > Assuming that each person takes 10 minutes of schmoozing (in order > to keep suspicions down), this means that the Impudite should plan > on 4 hours of continuous effort to get any Essence. This is really > pathetic -- there are /plenty/ of rites which make getting Essence > easier than using the Impudite resonance. (And if you add the fact > that no sane GM would let the player stall the session while making > dozens of rolls for 1 Essence, the Impudite player is even further > out of luck.) 1/6hrs * 45 = 7.5hrs. Pretty damn lousy, if you ask me. > IMC, I changed the Impudite dissonance to "can't kill a human by > their own hand," and I don't think I've damaged game balance any, > since Impudites are already so underpowered. Much better, IMO. OTOH, they do get some use out of just Charming people, but the Essence draining is only for the High-willed ones. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:30:24 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 11:39 AM +0200 7/17/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > >It still jars me. Mercurians -love- humans, each and every one of them, > >and still they can let their buddies kill them, while the Imps, who only > >think of humans as walking Essence-generators, can't. They have to > >intervene, try to prevent it, even if they have more leeway in other ways. > > I think it's the motives. Impudites have to preserve the little > monkeys because they're food. Mercurians know that sometimes, someone > has to practice tough love. (And, well, I suspect some game-mechanics/ > game-balance reasons...) Doesn't work for me. It's not like Imps can't live without humans - the comparison to food doesn't really work. It's weird that an Imp can't even let his pals kill someone who really needs killing (according to the demons, of course). Does this also mean that the Imp will get angry at his demonic colleagues if they kill humans, since it's his nature to try and stop it? Will he get pangs of angst because he didn't succeed in saving that tasty morsel? Besides, it's not like humans are a dying species or anything... Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:25:03 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Mix In a message dated 98-07-15 08:56:25 EDT, you write: > I love this idea. Here's my tenpence worth. > > Seven inspirational tracks: > Seraphim: The Host of the Seraphim - Dead Can Dance hoookay, so it's been done to death. I just can't help myself. Seraphim: the Eagles - "...You can't hide your Lying Eyes..." I think the name of the song was just "Lying Eyes" though. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:25:31 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Tether net-book (Re: Tether Sourcebook) Someone very recently commented (and I was trying to find the quote to use, but then couldn't, so forgive me) that Superiors could not create a tether where ever they wanted to, but sort of had to pick and choose from areas that were already "predisposed" by some action to be worthy of tetherdom? I am paraphrasing with not-so-great panache here. In other words something caused a tether to be created here at "such-and-such" and it's celestial connection is off floating somewhere waiting for someone or something to ground the connection to a celestial locale, else if not, the energies that created the tether just sort of float away? Has it ever been addressed as to Why a Superior CAN'T say, "What a lovely spot for a tether! I think I'll put one here."? I know that Redneck's DV game is very much "non-canon" but didn't Eli put a lot of effort into making the University Tower a tether? Or perhaps I wasn't paying attention, and something caused the Tower to be infused with "tetheric" energy, and Eli was just taking advantage of it. BUT I thought he spent a LOT of time and effort into making the (knots was it?) just so-so, having them have lots of Energy of Creation in them, that anyone without the know-wots could NOT tell by looking at them, just to -power- the tether into being. The reason I was wondering is that in my own IN campaign (which is also non- canon, and whose isn't in some fashion these days?), Vapula is trying to create a tether by way of some huge infernal device he's concocted that utilizes Forces stripped from angels (very ugly process) to "punch" a hole into Tartarus. It's this climax my players are trying to put a stop to (in the next couple of sessions, and no I don't think any of them are on this list...) Now, I know that my campaign has been/is very non-canon too, but it seemed strange for someone to claim that this aspect of tethers [mentioned above] *was* canon, at least if I remember correctly. Just looking for some clarification. Thanks. -- Thom. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:18:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Tether net-book - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > >Will we get a chance to playtest the Tether Book (thru Pyramid?) > > Unless things go a lot weirder than I anticipate, yes, Pyramid > subscribers will get the chance to playtest the Tetherbook when > I get the first draft completed. Great! Best of luck to ya! I'm sure that will excite many subscribers! I, of course, plan to be a subscriber very soon... ;) Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:04:46 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> The Ultimate Malakite of Gabriel/Dominic Song > >> For those IN players who are familiar with the musical Les >> Miserables, nothing is more Malakite than "Stars" (sung by Javert). >> Sample lyrics include: >> There, out in the darkness/ A fugitive running/ Fallen from >> grace/God be my witness/ I never shall yield/ Till we come face to face > >And of course the demon reply would be > >"That Malik thinks he's something, but its me who runs this town..... If we keep on this thought line, then that little demon is put down while gathering bullets from dead angels. And later the women would be weeping about the Fallen, "Where's their new world now the fightings done?" Sounds like a Bright Victory to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:11:00 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) >> At 11:39 AM +0200 7/17/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >Doesn't work for me. It's not like Imps can't live without humans - the >comparison to food doesn't really work. It's weird that an Imp can't even >let his pals kill someone who really needs killing (according to the >demons, of course). Does this also mean that the Imp will get angry at his >demonic colleagues if they kill humans, since it's his nature to try and >stop it? Will he get pangs of angst because he didn't succeed in saving >that tasty morsel? Besides, it's not like humans are a dying species or >anything... Consider it this way. Impudites are _obsessed_ with draining Essence. Essence is lifeblood, strength, power, force, everything. Humans are the producers of Essence. Kill a human? Okay, so they could let someone else do it, but to actually do it yourself... it's like an addict _deliberately_ pouring his latest beautiful batch of crack cocaine down the drain. Humans are enjoyable food, utility objects that'll feed you with their Essence and _then_ give you a backrub on top of it. I see the Impudite resonance as being so central to them (as resonance _is_) that to deliberately contradict it, by permanently destroying an Essence source, and thwart their eternal hunger is sufficient to go against their nature and get dissonance. After all, what does it feel like to get Essence? What does it feel like to be able to drain the raw stuff of the universe, of creation, from another being, and to feel it sweetly flooding through you, filling you with power to affect the Symphony and change the world? It has to be an addictive sensation. Quite possibly a number of Impudites drain Essence even when they're full and don't need to, just for the rush of it. (Hm. Idea there. Pigeonhole.) But to deliberately destroy a source of that wonderful, fantastic, habitual Essence... Ow. Dissonance. - --- Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #865 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.