From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 21 19:01:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05872 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:01:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA16142 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:02:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:02:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199807220002.TAA16142@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #870 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 870 In this digest: IN> IN: London continues (Judgement) IN> Re: some stuff Re: IN> More on Tethers Re: IN> Reincarnation Re: IN> More on Tethers Re: IN> Reincarnation Re: IN> More on Tethers IN> Re: IN- More on Tethers IN> Re: IN- Monotheism and idol worship IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) IN> Salvation and Damnation IN> Re: IN- IN: the Temple IN> Re: IN- More questions about Saints IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas IN> Asmodean Renegades IN> Saints vs. Boddhisatvas (Re: IN> Reincarnation) Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: the Temple Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) IN> subscriptions Re: IN> In Nomine Mix Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) RE: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:11:56 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> IN: London continues (Judgement) London continues... The Temple: (a Tether to Judgement) "What, all lawyers?" spluttered George III when introduced to a group of them at a parade in Hyde Park, 1803. "Call them the devils own!" Sometimes it is hard to tell whether the Inns of court - Middle Temple and Inner Temple - are lawyer's associations or the meeting grounds of some quietly cabalistic sect. Their practises seem strange, if not incomprehensible, to anyone fully initiated into them, and their history steeped in semi-secret ritual. The Inns do little to elucidate their own mysteries; indeed they seem to thrive on their very inscrutability. Of course, Dominic, Archangel of Judgement, likes it that way. First of all, the Inns are not open to all lawyers, only the part of the profession known as barristers. For centuries only the wealthy could afford to study at an Inn, or 'read for the bar' as it is called. Becoming a solicitor was a vocation more for the lower classes. Students may pursue their legal studies elsewhere, but they must pass the examinations of one of the Inns. Students also have to still eat formal dinner three times a term in the dining hall of their Inn to ensure their social skills are developed alongside their legal skills. Barristers remain outside the bar (originally the division in hall between the 'Benchers', who are the senior members, and the barristers) until they are elected Queen's Counsellors, when they 'take silk' i.e. don silk gowns (other barristers wear 'stuff' gowns). Women have been called to the Bar since 1922. The inns remain independent of each other, and each is governed by its 'Benchers' under the presidency of an honorary treasurer. The Inner and Middle Temple were named from their proximity to the City and in relation to the Outer Temple, which was never used. The secluded precincts are accessible to the public, except on Ascension Day. Master of the Temple Church is still a Crown appointment, although this position serves a higher purpose as Seneschal of the tether. Much of the mystery of the Inns of Court is historical; the Temple was originally the headquarters of the Knights Templar in England. Grateful monarchs and pilgrims, whose safety they protected on their way to Jerusalem, fuelled their wealth and power. Royal jealously followed and they were discredited and suppressed. They took their name, and the name of the area, from Jerusalem's holiest of holies, Temple Mount, where shrines to Judaism, Christianity and Islam co-exist on the same site. One of these sites, the Dome of the Rock, was the inspiration for the Knights' trademark round churches, of which the one located here, Temple Church (one of London's oldest buildings), serves as the tether itself. The Knights Templar had peculiar customs, some of which has passed on directly. Lawyer's briefs, for example, are still signed with a kind of loop evolved from the Templars' special sign of the cross. In 1312, on the dissolution of the order, the Temple passed to the crown, and in 1324 it was granted to the Knights Hospitallers of St. John - a rival order; who, in the reign of Edward II, leased it to a number of professors of common law. These shortly began to take in students to reside with them, thus establishing the beginnings of the legal community that has persisted at the Temple ever since. At the Dissolution of the Monasteries, it reverted to the Crown, but in 1608 the lawyers were confirmed in their possessions by James I, who offered it to them on condition they guarantee its upkeep. This they did, though to judge by the wild revelries that went on, it is scarcely believable that the church stayed in one piece. By the 16th century the temple elders felt constrained to appoint Lords of Misrule to impose some semblance of order. The four Inns of Court (Lincoln's Inn and Gray's Inn are the others) originated in the reign of Edward I, by which time the clergy no longer practised in the courts of justice, their place being taken by professional students of law. Originally great mansions where students and barristers lived, each is a proudly independent Honourable Society, governed by Benchers who call their students to the Bar. You can immediately tell which building belongs to which Inn because each is stamped with the appropriate emblem: Pascal lamb and flag on innocence to denote Middle Temple, a winged horse for Inner temple. The buildings of the Middle Temple lie mainly to the west of Middle Temple Lane which is still lit by gas. Middle Temple Hall has a double hammer-beam roof, remarkable Elizabethan screen carved from oak, carved doorways, Tudor Bench table, portraits of Elizabeth I and the Stuart Monarchs. The Cupboard Table where Readers (the principal lecturers) gave their lectures before becoming Benchers, and walls lined with former readers' coats-of-arms. The serving table is said to have been made from the timbers of Drake's ship, the 'Golden Hind'. The Hall, with an assembly chamber, over 100 ft long, was where the great revels and masques were staged between All Saints (November 1) and Candlemass (February 2), featured a performance of Shakespeare's Twelfth Night by his own company. Today the horn summons students to dine at 6:30pm. Inner Temple Hall has a marble floor (heated from underneath) and windows containing heraldic glass that includes the arms of former Benchers of the Inn who have become Lord Chancellors. The vault chamber called the battery at the west end, with the crypt below, survives from the 14th century. The libraries of both Inns are also tethered to the Heavenly library of Yves. Temple Church lies to the north of Inner Temple Hall which serves both Inns of Court. When James I handed the church to the lawyer in the 17th century, he made Middle Temple responsible for the northern half, Inner Temple for the southern. The Templars' penitential cell, on the northern side towards the back, is sometimes still used to hold troublesome celestials through use of the Seneschals Warder ability (below). Bound celestials must maintain their celestial form only (the tether disguises any disturbance) and all Discord is visible as per the Elohim of Judgement ability. The marble effigies of thirteenth century Knights can still be seen. Church Court is surrounded by the Knights' cloisters, rebuilt after the war. The Master's House, the residence of the incumbent of the church, stands at the end of an incongruous city-centre English country garden. Lawyers used to await their clients 'in the Round', each occupying a particular place like the merchants on the stock exchange. The Temple Bar Memorial, topped with a bronze griffin which replaced Christopher wrens' original gateway (eventually removed due to the volume of traffic) marks the end of the Strand and the beginning of Fleet Street - as well as the boundaries between the City of Westminster and the City of London. The bronze panel depicts Queen Victoria and Edward, Price of Wales, entering the City of London. The Griffin is one of the City's emblems, introduce by the Victorians who remembered that the griffins of lore guarded over a treasure of hidden gold. They presumably forgot that griffins also tore approaching humans to pieces as punishment for their greed. It's here that, on state occasion, the Sovereign still pauses to ask the Lord Mayors permission before entering his City and to surrender the Sword of State symbolising the old tension between the monarchy and its money source, the City merchants. The Sword is immediately returned to him and is henceforth carried before the Sovereign as a symbol of his responsibility for her protection in the City. Seneschal: Abdon, the Master of the Church is a Kyriotate who uses the appointed mortal masters as servants. For them it is a great and secret honour to be chosen by God in this way of course. The Angel is one of the celestial 'old guard' who has considerable power and age, but remains somewhat out of touch with the modern world. He has many of Dominic's Attunements, including Warder (but not Inquisitor). He is also a Master of Law as well. Abdon came over from Jerusalem when the Templars were building the church in the twelfth century. He was the surviving member of a Triad who'd been wiped out; the whole incident had left him with some dissonance. He elected to help the monks construct the Church in order to dispel the pain he felt at the loss of his brothers. In time this has become a symbolic rite for servitors of Abdon: any Angel who helps with restoration at the Temple Church, or any other church in London, receives a point of essence. When the work was finsishd, Abdon became attched to the church as it grew in strength. When it became a tether, he was its seneschal and has remained so ever since. Nowadays he co-ordinates Judgement's work and Word in London as well as any Triad activity. Abdon is somewhat old-fashioned and can be just as unforgiving as his master - especially to servitors of Archangels opposed to Dominic; like Eli for instance. In olden times, this was the place to settle celestial trouble; one could always count on the seneschal's arbitration to give the last and binding word in a situation. Of course, these days, the older generation just aren't as respected; but those who know best can still count on his fair-mindedness and swift wisdom, even if it's a little quaint, to settle a dispute no matter how serious. Dissonant Angels can work of their woes by aiding a certain, favoured barrister, Seneschal's choice, (mortal or maybe Angel!) prepare for a case. Of course such work will not be as interesting as they might think. For instance they might have to look up obscure and tedious legal references tucked away at the back of one of the two libraries. They may also make use of a particular facility the cell has; access to Limbo. Here no Will roll is needed, all the Angel need do is mentally prepare himself. The purpose is of course to reflect and meditate on ones actions; when he is ready to return, all dissonance is forgiven. However there are a few restrictions to characters in Limbo using this method: the only communication may be done from Abdon (if he so desires. And he usually won't, without good reason) and no other (except of course Dominic or another Archangel). All other conditions apply. This is only recommended for seriously dissonant Angels, it's meant to represent a serious ordeal undertaken by the strong-willed and truly penitent. Abdon's other Rites include: Helping out a student of the Inns of Court +1 essence. Praying for justice in the Church (at dawn) +1 essence. * * * * * * * * * * * NOTES: Information presented here, and that to follow, is left deliberately vague while i: A) learn more and research more B) Decide who to use as Seneschals, NPC's, etc. I did intend to make use of the stuff from the supplements for my own game so it would be pointless putting that here as you will have other plans for such canonical (never mind copyright situations) characters/situations. Any ideas for people/places are welcomed - dare I say needed! this should be taken as a work in progress. Or with two aspirin or a stiff drink. Marnie - (Shedite of the day: the projectionist who subjected a cinema full of kids to Roy 'Chubby' Brown, instead of Barney the Great!) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:13:21 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re: some stuff Catching up on old digests... Anders wrote: >But they don't -have- to drain Essence. They can, and they like it, but >it's not something they can't live without. It's their nature, junkies don't 'have' to shoot up, either. An Impudite, in its own way, has more to gain from humans, than a Mercurian. Jayson wrote: "What about Tether quirks? What about such use in a tether *of the opposing side's*...? If a demon walks into an angel tether of revelation, is he found out? Do the various tethers have unique qualities based on what part of the celestial realm they're attached to? (David's tethers harder to damage, Michael's give defensive edges to it's defenders, Novalis' give penalties to attack within the tether, etc...)" What utterly, utterly brilliant thoughts! Especially the li'l idea about tethers of revelation. I will definitely make use of this (how could I have not thought of this myself - if you'll pardon my modesty!). any suggestions from your good self? Marnie ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:35:55 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> More on Tethers At 12:42 21/07/98 EDT, you wrote: > > >In my game, Tethers also serve as coordination centers for the >celestials in the area, especially with regards to contacts, mundane >resources and Roles, and the like -- they're basically the local >headquarters for the Superior, and often serve as a lesser hub for >allied and associated ones. I'm put in mind now of consulates or embassies. When you go abroad, you almost certainly won't _need_ to go to your local consulate unless you lose your passport or get arrested, although in some dangerous locations (such as warzones) you will be advised to notify the ambassador of your presence - -- in case they need to get you out in a hurry. However, if you do get into any kind of trouble or need to notify your authorities at home about anything, it is the place to go. Also if you are in a place where your country has no embassy, its almost certain that an allied power will have agreed to act as a proxy. I like that. jo - -------------------------------------------------------- "You say I play as if possessed by the Devil?" "Madame, I play with PASSION!" "Passion is not evil! Passion is ecstasy enacted!" "...And ecstasy is DIVINE!" -- Paganini - -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:54:54 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Reincarnation Walter Milliken wrote: > >If you have Saints and Boddhisatvas in the same system, it should > >be the Boddhisatvas that reincarnate, if anyone does, to avoid > >being totally confusing in your labels. > > Agreed, but I think the current canon is exactly backwards on this -- > the Boddhisatvas are the ones who stay to help in the lower Heavens, and > the Saints are the sub-set of these who return to the corporeal. Or so > I recall the write-up. Yup, it's backwards because, I devoutly believe, 'saints' is easier to pronounce than 'boddhisatvas' for most westerners. O=) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 14:00 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More on Tethers [jo:] >I'm put in mind now of consulates or embassies. In fact, one of the ways I was thinking of describing Tethers was "a sort of extraterritorial intrusion from the celestial realm". Besides being hard to type, it was less clear than what I wound up with. Unfortunately, I lost the implication of "embassy" or "consulate", though that's a good description of a lot of what goes on at a Tether. Maybe we can use that concept explicitly in the section on Tethers in the campaign. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 14:02 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Reincarnation > Yup, it's backwards because, I devoutly believe, >'saints' is easier to pronounce than 'boddhisatvas' for >most westerners. O=) Which has always been sufficient justification for doing abusive things in the English language.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:59:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More on Tethers At 1:24 AM -0400 7/21/98, Matthew D. Gandy wrote: > The topic of the week seems to be Tethers. [Apparently. BTW, Note that Em is a Major Concept Source for Tethers, though she's being quiet.] > Question: if Tethers are "natural" phenomena, impossible for Superiors to >*directly* influence due to Symphonic disturbance and balance of power, why are >Tethers so Symphonically noisy? Many reasons -- some just *are*, for whatever reason. Most are noisy because there's celestials going up and down them and going celestial and doing Songs in the safety of the Tether. And some are very quiet, either because there's no celestial activity there, or because it is that Tether's nature to be quiet... >Are they noisy as they form, Most are not. >Is it a safe place for other disturbances (Songs and >such) only because a little more noise would go unnoticed (and the other side >already knows where it is) or because there is some sort of masking effect >involved? Usually the former. Sometimes the latter. >If Superiors don't think in terms of "who has what", then what >purpose do Tethers serve in the larger picture of things >? Well, some places don't *have* Tethers... And though celestials have "territories," there are usually a lot fewer celestials in the world than vampires (or so I've osmosed...). >"Celestial >forts", as IN pg. 59 calls them, seems reasonable, except that they don't seem >geared toward defense (in a purely military sense), stockpiles (as a celestial >armory) or even meeting ground for that side ("You and the Michaelite can come, >but don't bring your Gabrielite friend--he isn't welcome here"). There is going to be a *lot* more about Tethers in the book, including all of the above. Some Tethers are more useful as all of the above than others. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:47:08 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- More on Tethers >From: Elizabeth McCoy >> Question: if Tethers are "natural" phenomena, impossible for Superiors to >>*directly* influence due to Symphonic disturbance and balance of power, why are >>Tethers so Symphonically noisy? > >Many reasons -- some just *are*, for whatever reason. Most are noisy >because there's celestials going up and down them and going celestial >and doing Songs in the safety of the Tether. And some are very quiet, >either because there's no celestial activity there, or because it >is that Tether's nature to be quiet... That works... So that infernal tether in that game I mentioned before could've been quiet just from lack of activity as opposed to actually weakening. > (or so I've osmosed...). Wouldn't that be "asmotized"? I dunno. "Bother," said Pooh, as he planted the claymore mines. Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:11:02 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Monotheism and idol worship >From: Anders Gabrielsson >Uriel was the first and pretty much the -only- one to do it in a serious >manner. The rest of the AA:s have kept the gains made by the Crusade, but >they haven't tried to continue exterminating the Ethereals. > >Now, Uriel was the one behind this Crusade, the driving force. He was the >one who wanted to exterminate the Ethereals, and I don't think he wanted >it just because they were getting Essence that could be put to better use >(in his opinion), but because he found them an offense against God. The archangels have historically been unimpressed by the pagan gods; this is why they went along with Yves' invention of monotheism; it doesn't give them any more power, but it takes it away from a dangerous third party. >Whether God really was offended or not is something He isn't openly >discussing, so it's difficult to measure Uriel's success in that >direction, but the more practical effects are apparent. Many Ethereals >were destroyed, and many others were driven to serve Hell simply to >survive. Does this mean Heavin is in a better position now than before the >Crusade? Doubtful. Does it help people get into Heaven? Not in my opinion. Even though many archangels didn't like the pagan gods, most were still unimpressed with Uriel's Crusade; some of their objections may have been along those lines. >IMO, belonging to a monotheistic faith has no bearing on whether one gets >to take the elevator up or down when one has kicked the proverbial bucket In an In Nomine context, me neither. IRL, I have no idea. Well, I have ideas, but this ain't the place... ;) "Bother," said Pooh, as he called in the airstrike. Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:17:47 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) >From: "Martin Arnold" >Q: Do Asmodean renegades gain Dissonance for every day they remain >renegdes or is that just being silly? serve them right though, wouldn't >it! Even if it makes logical sense, there needs to be some reason for them NOT to, because that just makes things too sick. First off, if they have no standing orders at the time, and never check back in to get new orders, then they have no orders to violate. If they can ever get into this position, they can go renegade without fear of automatic dissonance. >Q: What happens to Shedim/Kyrios who become Remnants as regards their >lack of vessels and roles; do they takeover the poor old host's body >permanently? I'd say they can't become remnants. To do that, you need a vessel, not a host. "Bummer," said Pooh, as Tigger dropped the joint into the honey jar. Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:29:45 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Salvation and Damnation >From: Anders Gabrielsson >> I didn't clearly state this, but I writing from an IN perspective, not a >> real-world religious perspective. From what I can tell, the IN universe >> is pantheistic; it's also my personal favorite definition of the nature >> of God. > >That doesn't change the way people see God - they don't know. No, but it has an effect. Remember, I said that conscious awareness of this process wasn't really needed. Some people are just naturally good without having to think about it. And even for conscious decisions, you can love God or by love the world; in a pantheistic universe, the two work out to the same thing anyway. "Bollocks," said Pooh, being more forthright than usual. Dan Maberry, UberPope. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:32:59 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- IN: the Temple >From: Earl Wajenberg >Eli as Jesus works reasonably well as an Arian IN theology, Could you possibly define Arian theology for us unschooled masses? I don't beleive I've heard of it... "Bother," said Dan, as he ran out of bizarre Pooh quotes. Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:37:25 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- More questions about Saints >From: Elizabeth McCoy >>5: What happens if a Saint succumbs to his Fate while on Earth? (A >>shorter one than the above, but will probably spawn more debate...) > > He 'falls' and had better not die without having also hit >Destiny somehow, or else he's going to find himself elbowing people >and trying to dodge the Habbalah herding everyone to Hellmouth Gate... Hmm... Well, since he's already achieved his Destiny, wouldn't falling to his Fate put him in the "acheived both or neither" category who get reincarnated? Perhaps he ge effectively Outcast, can't enter Heaven, and recycles the next time he dies... Unless he can reaffirm his Destiny somehow, or undo the damage done by his Fate. >Servitors of Fate (as well as any other demon) *love* corrupting >a Saint... Who knows? Kronos may even give out distinctions for >that sort of thing! In the words of Bart Simpson, Eep. "Milhouse, we are living in the age of cooties!" Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:46:07 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas Another Saint question: When reading Night Music, I went straight for the Saints chapter first without reading the bodhisattva description under Laurence. What I first thought about saints was that they were /resurrected/, not reincarnated. That is, they're given a vessel that's a replica of their original body (or perhaps their body restored), and can descend to Earth like an angel. It there any room for this conception of saint in canon? (I personally like it.) The Pineapple Guys welcome you to this exact second. Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:59:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Asmodean Renegades From: "Martin Arnold" >Q: Do Asmodean renegades gain Dissonance for every day they remain >renegdes or is that just being silly? serve them right though, wouldn't >it! A Renegade who manages to break his Heart loses his Prince's dissonance conditions. Otherwise, they gain Dissonance every time they violate direct orders, and I think we can assume Asmodeus gives his servants standing orders not to go Renegade. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:34:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: IN> Saints vs. Boddhisatvas (Re: IN> Reincarnation) Perhaps I'm on another planet altogether, but my perception of the difference, based on both canon texts and the input of reputable sources on this list, is that a Boddhisatva is anyone who has been offered a place in Heaven, but chose instead to maintain an active interest in the War. Some stay in the lower level of Heaven, counceling angels in the ways of the world, preparing servants for their forays into the corporeal. Some return in infant form to grow and learn a new perspective in the symphony, and then to teach their knowledge to others. (Either angels, or humanity.) Some, (the subset known as "Saints") return in a celestial vessel, modelled after their original form. It is these which are described in detail in Night Music. I guess the biggest difference is that I see Saint as a subset of Boddhisatva, rather than as an entirely different concept. So, now that I've thrown that out there, I'm really interested in hearing if this is a popular concept or if Jayson is about to crowned King of the Lollipop Gamers. -Jayson - ---John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > Walter Milliken wrote: > > > >If you have Saints and Boddhisatvas in the same system, it should > > >be the Boddhisatvas that reincarnate, if anyone does, to avoid > > >being totally confusing in your labels. > > > > Agreed, but I think the current canon is exactly backwards on this - -- > > the Boddhisatvas are the ones who stay to help in the lower Heavens, and > > the Saints are the sub-set of these who return to the corporeal. Or so > > I recall the write-up. > > Yup, it's backwards because, I devoutly believe, > 'saints' is easier to pronounce than 'boddhisatvas' for > most westerners. O=) > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:11:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) Hmmm... what about... - ---Daniel Maberry wrote: > > >From: "Martin Arnold" > >Q: Do Asmodean renegades gain Dissonance for every day they remain > >renegdes or is that just being silly? serve them right though, wouldn't > >it! > > Even if it makes logical sense, there needs to be some reason for them > NOT to, because that just makes things too sick. First off, if they have > no standing orders at the time, and never check back in to get new > orders, then they have no orders to violate. If they can ever get into > this position, they can go renegade without fear of automatic > dissonance. Ok, you're a servant of the Game. You rebel. SLAM! There's a note of dissonance for you for disobeying orders and becoming a Renegade. (I know, it hurts. It'll be okay... trust me.) When do you get the next note? You don't. Renegades have no Demon Prince and therefore... no dissonance for not following them. > > >Q: What happens to Shedim/Kyrios who become Remnants as regards their > >lack of vessels and roles; do they takeover the poor old host's body > >permanently? > > I'd say they can't become remnants. To do that, you need a vessel, not a > host. > Let's suppose you're a Shedite or Kyriotate and you DO have your last celestial force destroyed in Mrs. McCleary's body? What then? Well, from the trauma of becoming a Remnant, I'd say the celestial might have to make a Will roll. What's that? He has no Will as a Remnant? Well, maybe a perception roll then to reorient his senses... What? No Perception either? Hmmm... Well, at least his celestial resonance is still working. What? His resonances, Rites, and celestial songs are all bogus now? Doesn't look too good for the poor little possessor, does it? -Jayson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:42:10 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: the Temple In a message dated 7/21/98 2:38:00 PM, uberpope@hotmail.com writes: >>From: Earl Wajenberg >>Eli as Jesus works reasonably well as an Arian IN theology, > >Could you possibly define Arian theology for us unschooled masses? I >don't believe I've heard of it... > >"Bother," said Dan, as he ran out of bizarre Pooh quotes. >Dan Maberry, UberPope I'll take a swing at this one, considering I have some background on this topic. The central difference between Arianism and orthodox Christianity is rooted in Trinitarian doctrine. Essentially, Arius taught that Jesus was not God. Jesus was a created being whose substance was not the same as that of God the Father. To quote the Arian version of John 1:1 is, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was in the presence of God, and the Word was a god." (The Word meaning Jesus...) There was a great deal of debate, and the current version of the Nicene Creed eventually reads, "I believe in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father..." There are other issues, mainly having to do with the nature of the Kingdom of God, but they were mostly sidelights. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 18:48 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas >When reading Night Music, I went straight for the Saints chapter first >without reading the bodhisattva description under Laurence. What I first >thought about saints was that they were /resurrected/, not reincarnated. >That is, they're given a vessel that's a replica of their original body >(or perhaps their body restored), and can descend to Earth like an >angel. It there any room for this conception of saint in canon? I don't think that's all that inconsistent with canon, though I don't think canon requires them to have a vessel similar to their old one. There is some confusion on the reincarnation issue -- I think I'm going to allow both things to be true in my game. I.e., some Saints are reincarnated and eventually recover their celestial identity, while others are more like human equivalents of angels, given a vessel and a Role-equivalent. (Saints don't need normal Roles, since they're already a normal part of the Symphony.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:51:08 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) >Let's suppose you're a Shedite or Kyriotate and you DO have your last >celestial force destroyed in Mrs. McCleary's body? What then? Well, >from the trauma of becoming a Remnant, I'd say the celestial might >have to make a Will roll. What's that? He has no Will as a Remnant? >Well, maybe a perception roll then to reorient his senses... What? No >Perception either? Hmmm... Well, at least his celestial resonance is >still working. What? His resonances, Rites, and celestial songs are >all bogus now? Doesn't look too good for the poor little possessor, >does it? This might happen with a Kyriotate, if he was celestially killed while doing the "celestial form in addition to hosts" trick. In that case, I might let him exist as a remnant until he runs out of hosts; he cant repossess any of them or try to extend the time any more, so when his time runs out, he loses a body. When he loses his last, POOF. He's not even dust, like when a remnant's vessel is killed. A Kyriotate with an attunement that lets him have a vessel, however, can become a remnant like any other celestial. A Shedite, OTOH, can't do that trick. If he's in celestial combat, he's in celestial form, and thus has no host. When he's celestially killed, it's like with any other celestial without a vessel; he's just gone. If you can find some way to inflict celestial damage on someone who's in a vessel or host (and I don't know of one), then he can wind up like the Kyriotate above. "Neutrinos have MASS?! Heck, I didn't even know they were CATHOLIC!" Dan Maberry, UberPope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:40:43 -0700 From: "E Kumar" Subject: IN> subscriptions I just subscribed in digest format. Sorry if I sound clueless here but is it better to do that or individual subscription? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:21:23 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Mix > Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > > > > > When I first started In Nomine (not all to long ago), I told them to think > > > of it like this: Jewel, is an angel (possibly a cherub) > > > > That's one take on it. Mine would be to say that she's crap. > > That is your opinion, and not realy relevant. No arguement. Just an aesthetic thing. > > > , and Tori Amos is > > > a human (and I take exception to someone using her songs for demons). > > > > But I think Tori would find it very amusing. > > I agree with you on that. Actually the problem I have with it, is that the > songs are against self-deseption, if anything, and that goes against demon > nature. Of course, demons could just be fooling themselves. Some of Tori's stuff is against self-deception, but others are about a whole lot of stuff. This is getting well off-topic, so I'll shut up now. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Life's a piece of shit, woo woo woo Open a vein and slit, woo woo woo TISM, "Bishop Handjob" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:43:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) At 2:17 PM -0700 7/21/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: >>From: "Martin Arnold" >>Q: Do Asmodean renegades gain Dissonance for every day they remain >>renegdes or is that just being silly? serve them right though, wouldn't >>it! It has been one of my thoughts (non-canon. Yet?) that dissonance is incorporated in one's Heart. Therefore, if you are Renegade and have not shattered your Heart, you take dissonance if you violate the dissonance conditions of the Prince who crafted your Heart. The instant that you shatter your Heart (or it cracks enough for an angel to be Outcast), the dissonance-conditions no longer affect you. (And a Gamester might only take 1 dissonance for not turning themselves in. Plus 1 if they're disobeying Asmodeus' orders.) Of course, an Asmodean with a Heart can expect his Boss to find him in a month or so. Which will make that sticky Renegade dissonance kind of moot. >>Q: What happens to Shedim/Kyrios who become Remnants as regards their >>lack of vessels and roles; do they takeover the poor old host's body >>permanently? > >I'd say they can't become remnants. To do that, you need a vessel, not a >host. I think it might depend... A Shedite wouldn't be able to 'drop into a vessel' (unless it was a Shedite of Vapula?) A Kyrio who got into celestial combat and somehow retained hold of a host, though... That could be interesting. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:44:05 -0700 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BDB501.738CCCF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Quoth Elizabeth, the Goddess of Scary Ideas. . . It has been one of my thoughts (non-canon. Yet?) that dissonance is incorporated in one's Heart. Therefore, if you are Renegade and have not shattered your Heart, you take dissonance if you violate the dissonance conditions of the Prince who crafted your Heart. Quoth me, the small and humble. . . . So if someone had a heart created by a Superior other than their own, they have different dissonance conditions? So heartless celestials have no dissonance conditions? So if you change Superiors, they have to break your heart and create you a new one? Scary. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BDB501.738CCCF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: IN> Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, = sorry)

Quoth Elizabeth, the Goddess of Scary = Ideas. . .


      It has been one of my thoughts = (non-canon. Yet?) that dissonance
      is incorporated in one's Heart.  = Therefore, if you are Renegade and
      have not shattered your Heart, you = take dissonance if you violate
      the dissonance conditions of the = Prince who crafted your Heart.

Quoth me, the small and humble. . . = .

      So if someone had a heart created by a Superior other than = their own, they have different dissonance conditions?

      So heartless celestials have no = dissonance conditions?

      So if you change Superiors, they = have to break your heart = and create you a new one?

      Scary.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BDB501.738CCCF0-- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #870 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.