From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 22 12:46:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22368 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:46:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA32740 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:47:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:47:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199807221747.MAA32740@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #871 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 871 In this digest: IN> Rites & Dissonance & Hearts Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas Re: IN> mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) Re: IN> Asmodean Renegades Re: IN> mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) Re: IN> Asmodean Renegades Re: IN> subscriptions Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) Re: IN> Q Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds IN> Q2 IN> Remnant Kyriotates (was Re: IN- mishmash) Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: the Temple Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc. (was: some mishmash) Re: IN> subscriptions Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc. (was: some mishmash) Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) IN> Remnant Kyrios and Shedim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:34:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Rites & Dissonance & Hearts At 4:44 PM -0700 7/21/98, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote: > >Quoth Elizabeth, the Goddess of Scary Ideas. . . > >> It has been one of my thoughts (non-canon. Yet?) that dissonance >>is incorporated in one's Heart. Therefore, if you are Renegade >>and have not shattered your Heart, you take dissonance if you >>violate the dissonance conditions of the Prince who crafted your Heart. > >Quoth me, the small and humble. . . . > >So if someone had a heart created by a Superior other than their own, >they have different dissonance conditions? Potentially. Mind you, it's kind of odd to have a Heart created by someone else.... (And presumably a Superior could *choose* to put in no dissonance conditions? Maybe? Or maybe you'd better not go Outcast and get your Heart repaired by any but Eli...) This is part of the "in service to" thing, in my mind. If your Heart has not been retuned/re-created to the new Superior, it doesn't matter if you've got it in their Cathedral/Principality or not. The dissonance is that of your old Superior's. >So heartless celestials have no dissonance conditions? With the exception of those who take the dissonance and Rites of Freedom -- I've been thinking of *that* as a modified Geas. At any time, you can reject the Rites and dissonance package, but it's always a package. >So if you change Superiors, they have to break your heart and >create you a new one? That was my unofficial notion, yes. Or take your old Heart and retune it to their Word. (Archangels retune, Princes shatter and make a new one. Same effect, different attitudes...) >Scary. Why? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:18:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas I thought I posted something about this earlier, but as it hasn't appeared on the list, I'll assume I mailed it to Limbo. My apologies if it ends up coming up twice. My view on Bodhisattvas and Saints. All Saints are Bodhisattvas, but NOT vice versa. I label Bodhisattva anyone who has earned passage into Heaven, yet retains their involvement in the War. Some stay in Heaven, teaching angels the ways of man before they're sent down. Counciling angels and archangels alike on "the human mind", a concept foreign to most of the residents. Offering a human perspective. Laurence isn't stupid, he knows this kind of input can give the Host an edge. If he knows his terrain (the soul of a man), he has the advantage. (Basic Sun Tzu.) Some Bodhisattva may occasionally return as an infant, learning the symphony through new eyes, the better with which to teach either man, or angel, what they have learned. Some of the Bodhisattva return to earth in a celestial vessel modeled after their lost human forms. These are the Saints. That's my take. It doesn't hurt my brain, it doesn't hurt canon (as far as I can see), and it doesn't scream "I need a rules lawyer!". -Jayson - ---Daniel Maberry wrote: > > Another Saint question: > > When reading Night Music, I went straight for the Saints chapter first > without reading the bodhisattva description under Laurence. What I first > thought about saints was that they were /resurrected/, not reincarnated. > That is, they're given a vessel that's a replica of their original body > (or perhaps their body restored), and can descend to Earth like an > angel. It there any room for this conception of saint in canon? (I > personally like it.) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:46:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: IN> mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Daniel Maberry wrote: > >Let's suppose you're a Shedite or Kyriotate and you DO have your last > >celestial force destroyed in Mrs. McCleary's body? 8< snip >8 > This might happen with a Kyriotate, if he was celestially killed while > doing the "celestial form in addition to hosts" trick. In that case, I > might let him exist as a remnant until he runs out of hosts; he cant > repossess any of them or try to extend the time any more, so when his > time runs out, he loses a body. When he loses his last, POOF. He's not > even dust, like when a remnant's vessel is killed. A Kyriotate with an > attunement that lets him have a vessel, however, can become a remnant > like any other celestial. > > A Shedite, OTOH, can't do that trick. If he's in celestial combat, he's > in celestial form, and thus has no host. When he's celestially killed, > it's like with any other celestial without a vessel; he's just gone. If > you can find some way to inflict celestial damage on someone who's in a > vessel or host (and I don't know of one), then he can wind up like the > Kyriotate above. I agree with Daniel for the most part, except I wouldn't let the unfortunate Kyrio stick around. I'd rule that the "no Choir resonance" part of being a Remnant ejects him from the host body and he dissolves. In the same vein, though, I'd allow Kyrios of Michael, Laurence, and David stick around if they had a vessel. (Dying thoughts: "Thanks, David. Now I can spend my Remnanthood as a statue. Whee.") Hey, that would be cool if the David Remnants thus afflicted could still move around and talk and everything. "Hey, what am I doing here? What's going on? ... WHY AM I MADE OF ROCKS???" Probably be pretty interesting for the Servitors of Janus, too, who can assume gaseous form in the Corporeal Realm in lieu of a host.. "Poor, Kyrio...I'll miss him." *whoooooosh* "Hey, what was that?" Maybe, maybe not. - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:52:04 -0400 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Asmodean Renegades Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > >A Renegade who manages to break his Heart loses his Prince's dissonance >conditions. Otherwise, they gain Dissonance every time they violate >direct orders, and I think we can assume Asmodeus gives his servants >standing orders not to go Renegade. It depends... - -*-*-*- "Feel free to run," he told me. "There is no law against it; in all of Hell you will find no prohibition like that the Tyrant laid against the parents of men. "But do keep in mind that while there is no infernal decree against flight, there is no law against my giving chase. And what could could cause me to deny myself the rapture of the hunt? It is, after all, simply one of the less subtle variations of the Game -- you will even notice that the rule is unchanged: don't get caught." - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:43:46 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) Sheep Boy wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Daniel Maberry wrote: > > > >Let's suppose you're a Shedite or Kyriotate and you DO have your last > > >celestial force destroyed in Mrs. McCleary's body? > > 8< snip >8 > > > This might happen with a Kyriotate, if he was celestially killed while > > doing the "celestial form in addition to hosts" trick. In that case, I > > might let him exist as a remnant until he runs out of hosts; he cant > > repossess any of them or try to extend the time any more, so when his > > time runs out, he loses a body. When he loses his last, POOF. He's not > > even dust, like when a remnant's vessel is killed. A Kyriotate with an > > attunement that lets him have a vessel, however, can become a remnant > > like any other celestial. [snip] > I agree with Daniel for the most part, except I wouldn't let the > unfortunate Kyrio stick around. I'd rule that the "no Choir resonance" > part of being a Remnant ejects him from the host body and he dissolves. > In the same vein, though, I'd allow Kyrios of Michael, Laurence, and David > stick around if they had a vessel. (Dying thoughts: "Thanks, David. Now > I can spend my Remnanthood as a statue. Whee.") Hey, that would be cool > if the David Remnants thus afflicted could still move around and talk and > everything. "Hey, what am I doing here? What's going on? ... WHY AM I > MADE OF ROCKS???" Gargoyles, anyone? > Probably be pretty interesting for the Servitors of > Janus, too, who can assume gaseous form in the Corporeal Realm in lieu of > a host.. "Poor, Kyrio...I'll miss him." *whoooooosh* "Hey, what was > that?" [giggle] I like this! tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:48:17 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Asmodean Renegades At 21:52 21/07/98 -0400, you wrote: >Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >> >>A Renegade who manages to break his Heart loses his Prince's dissonance >>conditions. Otherwise, they gain Dissonance every time they violate >>direct orders, and I think we can assume Asmodeus gives his servants >>standing orders not to go Renegade. > >It depends... > >-*-*-*- > >"Feel free to run," he told me. "There is no law against it; in all of >Hell you will find no prohibition like that the Tyrant laid against the >parents of men. > >"But do keep in mind that while there is no infernal decree against flight, >there is no law against my giving chase. (Very neat). I can imagine also, a demon which had attracted the Prince's displeasure through incompetence might return to its heart in Hell, watch the thing crack and crumble before its very eyes, and realise that it had just been made the target of a 'wild hunt.' You have to train your loyal-but-inexperienced demons somehow in how to catch heart-breakers in that kind of situation, might as well make it a live one. jo http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:04:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> subscriptions - ---E Kumar wrote: > > I just subscribed in digest format. Sorry if I sound clueless here but is > it better to do that or individual subscription? > > Yes and no, E.K. I go by the individual, and sometimes I get a *lot* of email. I also subscibe to two other mailists, but they are digest. Otherwise, I'd get 200-300 emails!! It's all what you prefer... Graveyard Greg Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:11:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- IN: mishmash (and its a whopper so, er, sorry) On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Daniel Maberry wrote: > > This might happen with a Kyriotate, if he was celestially killed while > doing the "celestial form in addition to hosts" trick. In that case, I > might let him exist as a remnant until he runs out of hosts; he cant > repossess any of them or try to extend the time any more, so when his > time runs out, he loses a body. When he loses his last, POOF. He's not > even dust, like when a remnant's vessel is killed. A Kyriotate with an Why not just say that the kyrio or shedite in question becomes a ghost. those stories have to come from somewhere. mvg, Jasper Floor Had I been present at the creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe Alphonso the Wise ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:52:27 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Q On Mon, Jul 13, 1998 at 02:23:00PM -0400, Walter Milliken wrote: > >I have a better one. Can Windies Fall while in Trauma? > > I would say no. It's not like the Cherub problem, where being attuned > to too many things is a choice they make, that puts them at risk. A > Windy in Trauma isn't making a conscious choice contrary to his Word -- > it's just something that happens. Bet they go really hyper after being > still so long, though.... > On the other hand, there's nothing about the wording of their dissonance that suggests they have a choice about moving. I would certainly slap an imprisoned Windy with dissonance, though I wouldn't do the same to an Ofanite. I prefer the argument that the dissonance restriction doesn't apply in the Cathedral of their Word, or a Tether of their Word, because that doesn't make sense and implies that they would have very few Seneschals. I'm not sure about the idea of getting dissonance in Trauma at all. What is the condition of your Forces while you're in Trauma? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:04:05 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) At 9:42 AM -0400 7/20/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >> Does Impudite behavior become more understandable if one >> regards them as *addicted* to swiping Essence? From what >> I head, a solidly addicted coke-head would be really >> agonized to see a quantity of cocaine destroyed before him. > >But they don't -have- to drain Essence. They can, and they like it, but >it's not something they can't live without. And there are a number of other sources of Essence. They can get it from other Celestials (well, it's not bloody likely), and from animals. Heck I can see impudites buying bunnies at the pet store, drugging them into a dreamless sleep, waiting two or three days, and siphoning them dry. Or, at least, I see sorcerors doing this, because it's so unbelievably difficult for a sorceror to fill even the smallest of Spirit Jars. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Nigel, Calabite Captain of Hardcore, the Demon of Soccer Riots nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:25:54 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds It's a question that's been bothering me for awhile, one I've had trouble coming up with a good answer to. Or more precisely, a good answer that a Habbalite would give, because the answer to the question is pretty obvious to almost any other type of Celestial. I'd asked it to a habbalite during a game, and the GM couldn't come up with a good answer, either. "Hell has its share of Fallen Angels. There are Fallen Mercurians, Fallen Cherubim, Fallen Kyriotates, Fallen Seraphim and Ofanim. There's probably a Fallen Bright Lilim or two hanging around somewhere. There aren't any Fallen Malakim, of course. Malakim, like Habbalah, don't fall. But what about Elohim? Where are all the Fallen Elohim?" So, that's what I'm asking. If one were to ask a Habbalite the above question, and the Habbalite actually attempted to answer the question, rather than flying into a rage or stomping off, what would he say? ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Nigel, Calabite Captain of Hardcore, the Demon of Soccer Riots nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:48:38 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Q2 If renegades are immune to gaining dissonance from their previous superiors after their hearts have broken, I presume that outcasts are as well? So the servitor of judgement who didn't have the heart to accuse its friend of heresy, or the fire angel who let its cruel-target go, or the servitor of the wind who was trapped by forces outside its control may become outcasts, but won't necessarily _fall_ from that behaviour...? jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:10:13 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: IN> Remnant Kyriotates (was Re: IN- mishmash) Jayson Howell wrote: > Let's suppose you're a Shedite or Kyriotate and you DO have your last > celestial force destroyed in Mrs. McCleary's body? What then? Well, > from the trauma of becoming a Remnant, I'd say the celestial might > have to make a Will roll. What's that? He has no Will as a Remnant? > Well, maybe a perception roll then to reorient his senses... What? No > Perception either? Hmmm... Well, at least his celestial resonance is > still working. What? His resonances, Rites, and celestial songs are > all bogus now? Doesn't look too good for the poor little possessor, > does it? Okay you missed the point of another's post. Remnants are formed by a "dead" celestial body falling into it's vessel and living out the rest of the life of its corporeal body (immortal or otherwise). Many times the remnant will live its role as if it were real. Kyriotates and Shedim have no vessels. Therefor they don't remnent when they are celestially destroyed. On the other hand a Kyriotate of Michael, Laurence, or David might as they all might have a vessel around. Of course the remnant Kyriotate of David in their stone vessel might be a little weird. If I recall there was something like this discussed in reference to the Gargoyles cartoon. I think its still up on the INC. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:27:34 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds Good question, one I've been toying with for a while now. Remember that the Habbalah perspective is one of self-deception, perhaps more so than any other Band save the Balseraphs. Their existence depends on it. So, my answer would be this: "We *are* Elohim, Dark Elohim--their necessary and perfect reflection. So Hell's minions take to calling us Habbalah, and we work our work in their dismal realm, what of it? We still serve the One, in a capacity that only we could fill. We serve the Will by testing and tempering that which is flawed, that which is weak. Mortal or celestial, it matters not--our charge is to test all, regardless of virtue. And we always find others...wanting. You ask where the Fallen Elohim are, and I answer you: there are none. Just as the Malakim are incapable of plummeting into the Pit in which we now live, so to is it impossible for our Heavenly brethren to truly join the Rebellion. Nay, what we do, we do for a higher purpose, knowing that all others are unaware of our true and loyal service to the One. What we do, we choose to do; it is the ultimate sacrifice of self to the cause. And one day, when the War is over and all things have been tested in the Final Battle, then and only then will our purpose become clear to others." Are Elohim-cum-Habbalah about to betray the Rebellion in the Final battle? Of course not! They know to stick it out even to the very end, and then all we be explained and forgiven, all will be made clear...regardless of who wins. (Habbalite after Lucifer's triumph: "God was weak! Who knew?") After all, if it is difficult or impossible to convince delusion *humans* that they are living in a fantasy world, since they have adjusted all external stimuli to support that delusion (Quixotism, anyone?), imagine how much more warped, rigid and inflexible must the delusions of the celestial be. How else can Balseraphs convince themselves that somehow, in some way, they really *are* telling the truth. Of course, Hellborn Habbalah are more likely to just not care, as long as serving Hell gives them the opportunity to break people and punish the weak. Vapula sounds more like a Calabite most days of the weak: "Punishing the weak? Who cares *what* we're supposed to be doing, as long as I get to blow stuff up, er, *experiment*!" Falling shouldn't be so abrupt an about-face, even for Elohim. Assuming they've accumulate a few notes of dissonance now and again by going against their angelic nature, then it's much easier to imagine them getting to the point of decrying objectivity in exchange for the warm, fuzzy thought that their personal involvement in other's affairs so anathema to straight-and-narrow Elohim is really the secret work of God that only *they* are qualified to perform. Sensing the beginning of a Habbalah thread, Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy "still looking for the face I had before the world was made" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:33:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- IN: the Temple Daniel Maberry wrote: > Could you possibly define Arian theology for us unschooled masses? I > don't beleive I've heard of it... I think I defined it in a previous post on the thread, but I certainly don't mind doing so again. In Arian theology (named after Arius, its principal promoter), Christ is not "God the Son," an aspect of God. Rather, Christ is the first and greatest creature, "the first-born of all creation," "through whom and for whom all other things were made" (both of those being Biblical quotes used by Arians to back their claims). The best-known modern Arians are Jehovah's Witnesses. Arius's main opponent was Athanasius, author of the Athanasian Creed, which spells out the doctrine of the trinity as it is now held by what became mainstream Christianity. The whole issue was first raised at the Council of Niceae, in the fourth century, by Constantine, the emperor who converted to Christianity and made it the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Council found in favor of Athanasius, but that hardly settled the issue. Constantine himself shifted from one side to the other a couple of times, and there were so many Arian bishops, that for a while there was a parallel Arian Church, with its power base more to the north. > "Bother," said Dan, as he ran out of bizarre Pooh quotes. `He was one hundred and seventy days dying and not yet dead. He fought for survival with the passion of a beast in a trap. He was delirious and rotting, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin.' Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:36:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > "Hell has its share of Fallen Angels. There are Fallen Mercurians, Fallen > Cherubim, Fallen Kyriotates, Fallen Seraphim and Ofanim. There's probably a > Fallen Bright Lilim or two hanging around somewhere. There aren't any > Fallen Malakim, of course. Malakim, like Habbalah, don't fall. But what > about Elohim? Where are all the Fallen Elohim?" > > So, that's what I'm asking. If one were to ask a Habbalite the > above question, and the Habbalite actually attempted to answer the > question, rather than flying into a rage or stomping off, what would he say? IMG, Habbalah do not deny their duality with the Elohim, and accept them as their Fallen counterparts. In the same way that Habbalah delude theselves into thinking that they and their cohorts are doing God's work, so they think of Elohim as their Fallen cousins, simply not having reached the purity of holiness that the Habbalah enjoy. Not very dramatic, I know, but just my two cents. - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:07:05 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc. (was: some mishmash) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [snip] > I think it might depend... A Shedite wouldn't be able to > 'drop into a vessel' (unless it was a Shedite of Vapula?) A Kyrio > who got into celestial combat and somehow retained hold of a host, > though... That could be interesting. I have a Kyrio of Jean in my game, and it's always nervous about harming the host (I dish out dissonance for harming *objects* as well, as a house rule, because I reckon otherwise the Kyrio would just drop heavy objects on people all day. Plus the KoJ power is sufficiently useful that no dissonance for harming object hosts would be unbalancing.) So it's quite possible for it to be simultaneously thinking about its own safety, and the safety of one of its hosts, when it gets whacked hard enough to lose that last Celestial Force; if at this point it's more concerned with the host than its own safety (not realising the trouble it's in), I'd say it could end up in the host for good. Related question: if a Kyrio is in a host or two, *and* manifests a Celestial form, there's presumably less of it manifesting than if it was entirely without a host. After all, a KoJ in a toaster could presumably manifest a fairly large Kyrio Celestial Form, whereas a KoJ in a dog, a cat and a skateboard has less to work with. So, when the KoJ gets into Celestial Form, does it also have fewer Soul hits? Actually, if that's the case, then there's a fair chance that it can lose all Celestial Forces from its Celestial Form, while still having one or two in a host somewhere. So yet another way to go Remnant. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ Other stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, I'm pretty sure. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:10:16 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> subscriptions At 6:40 PM -0400 7/21/98, E Kumar wrote: >I just subscribed in digest format. Sorry if I sound clueless here but is >it better to do that or individual subscription? It's a matter of personal preference. I'm subscribed to the digest version myself, and the benefits of that are that the download time for mail messages is shorter for 1 ~40K message than 20 ~2K messages. That, and I disliked checking my mail and finding I had 96 messages to read. The disadvantages of the digest method are that you only get mail from the list intermittently, so you can't reply as fast as people who get the individual subscription version. Also, replying's a bit more difficult, as it takes a conscious effort to change the subject line from "re: in-nomine digest #466" to "Re: Impudite Dissonance-Blackmail." And it's a lot more difficult if you're using a mailreader that doesn't have a "Reply Quoting Selection" option. Finally, reading the digest version just takes longer; it's harder to skip items you don't want to read, and it's impossible to fitlter subjects and authors you want to read, or want to avoid. As for the individual version, it's advantages are a steady stream of mail that's relatively current, replies that require little or no extra editing, and the ability to read subjects and authors without opening the message, making it easier to skip subjects you don't want to read, and track the subjects that you do. Filtering's a breeze. The disadvantages are that it's slower to download. Other than that, I can't think of other disadvantages. As I mentioned before, I get the digest version. I use Eudora Pro 3.1.3 for Macintosh. Every time I get a Digest, I run an applescript called Cucumber to split it into individual messages, which get sorted by date, grouping subjects to produce a kind of quasi-threading effect. Then I run the whole folder through the filters to send messages more than a week old to the trash, and to flag the authors and subjects I want to make sure I read. Kind of a "best of both worlds" approach. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Nigel, Calabite Captain of Hardcore, the Demon of Soccer Riots nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 12:29 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) > And there are a number of other sources of Essence. They can get it >from other Celestials (well, it's not bloody likely), and from animals. >Heck I can see impudites buying bunnies at the pet store, drugging them >into a dreamless sleep, waiting two or three days, and siphoning them dry. I believe the IPG corrects this -- no animals. (During discussions of the Impudite section of the IPG, there was the example of the Impudite with the gerbil farm... only 1 Essence apiece, but they can only get one back per day, anyway. So this got stomped on.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 12:33 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds >"Hell has its share of Fallen Angels. There are Fallen Mercurians, Fallen >Cherubim, Fallen Kyriotates, Fallen Seraphim and Ofanim. There's probably a >Fallen Bright Lilim or two hanging around somewhere. There aren't any >Fallen Malakim, of course. Malakim, like Habbalah, don't fall. But what >about Elohim? Where are all the Fallen Elohim?" Unlike the inferior Choirs, Elohim don't Fall -- they come to their senses and become Habbalah. After all, the Elohim were created to make the hard decisions in the best interests of the whole Symphony, and the hardest choice they have to make is to leave Heaven and serve God in Hell, because it's necessary -- no one else will (or can) do it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 12:45 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas [Jayson:] >Some Bodhisattva may occasionally return as an infant, learning the >symphony through new eyes, the better with which to teach either man, >or angel, what they have learned. > >Some of the Bodhisattva return to earth in a celestial vessel modeled >after their lost human forms. These are the Saints. > >That's my take. It doesn't hurt my brain, it doesn't hurt canon (as >far as I can see), and it doesn't scream "I need a rules lawyer!". Makes good sense, except that Night Music states that the first type eventually get a triggering event of some sort and "wake up" as Saints. I don't really have a problem with Saints of two flavors, then ones who are essentially reincarnated and the ones who act more like normal celestials with vessels. (I don't recall exactly, but I remember something about Saints not being able to go back to Heaven without risking the urge to head for the Higher Heavens.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 12:52 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc. (was: some mishmash) [Sam:] >I have a Kyrio of Jean in my game, and it's always nervous about harming >the host (I dish out dissonance for harming *objects* as well, as a >house rule, because I reckon otherwise the Kyrio would just drop heavy >objects on people all day. Plus the KoJ power is sufficiently useful >that no dissonance for harming object hosts would be unbalancing.) Having one in my game as well, I wish I'd started that way -- any future campaigns of mine will include this non-canon rule. > So >it's quite possible for it to be simultaneously thinking about its own >safety, and the safety of one of its hosts, when it gets whacked hard >enough to lose that last Celestial Force; if at this point it's more >concerned with the host than its own safety (not realising the trouble >it's in), I'd say it could end up in the host for good. I don't think so -- its Choir resonance is gone (no Will left), so I'd rule that it would either be ejected immediately, or when the normal duration would expire. Probably the former. Vessels that are part of attunements should still work, though -- if I recall right, Remnants retain access to attunements. >Related question: if a Kyrio is in a host or two, *and* manifests a >Celestial form, there's presumably less of it manifesting than if it was >entirely without a host. After all, a KoJ in a toaster could presumably >manifest a fairly large Kyrio Celestial Form, whereas a KoJ in a dog, a >cat and a skateboard has less to work with. So, when the KoJ gets into >Celestial Form, does it also have fewer Soul hits? It's still all one being, so I'd say no. Note also that the disturbance from a Kyrio going celestial is always their *total* Forces, not the number currently allocated to the celestial form. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:00:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas - ---Walter Milliken wrote: > > [Jayson:] > >Some Bodhisattva may occasionally return as an infant, learning the > >symphony through new eyes, the better with which to teach either man, > >or angel, what they have learned. > > > >Some of the Bodhisattva return to earth in a celestial vessel modeled > >after their lost human forms. These are the Saints. > > > >That's my take. It doesn't hurt my brain, it doesn't hurt canon (as > >far as I can see), and it doesn't scream "I need a rules lawyer!". > > Makes good sense, except that Night Music states that the first type > eventually get a triggering event of some sort and "wake up" as Saints. > > I don't really have a problem with Saints of two flavors, then ones who > are essentially reincarnated and the ones who act more like normal > celestials with vessels. (I don't recall exactly, but I remember > something about Saints not being able to go back to Heaven without > risking the urge to head for the Higher Heavens.) Hmmm... maybe we could ratify that definition to include all earth bound bodhisattvas in the saint category? I don't know. The biggest difference I got was that a bodhisattva is still active in the War, while a saint is active in the corporeal realm. Making saints a subset of bodhisattvas seems to alleviate some of the conflict. -Jayson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:04:34 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds > >It's a question that's been bothering me for awhile, one I've had trouble >coming up with a good answer to. Or more precisely, a good answer that a >Habbalite would give, because the answer to the question is pretty obvious >to almost any other type of Celestial. I'd asked it to a habbalite during a >game, and the GM couldn't come up with a good answer, either. > >"Hell has its share of Fallen Angels. There are Fallen Mercurians, Fallen >Cherubim, Fallen Kyriotates, Fallen Seraphim and Ofanim. There's probably a >Fallen Bright Lilim or two hanging around somewhere. There aren't any >Fallen Malakim, of course. Malakim, like Habbalah, don't fall. But what >about Elohim? Where are all the Fallen Elohim?" "Foolish deluded creature! The Elohim ARE the fallen! Only we Habbalah, we who have been touched by the voice of God, are TRULY pure! And we must not rest until all creatures are as pure as we are- or are disposed of!" Redneck Will you visit one of Kris Overstreet's web sites? http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid Please make your decision quickly as I have a tendency to scream for no reason. ***KUDDU-KUDDU-PAW!!!*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:01:42 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) At 12:29 22/07/98 EDT, you wrote: > (During discussions of >the Impudite section of the IPG, there was the example of the Impudite >with the gerbil farm... Gerbils & Impudites. A match made in Hell! jo http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:29:23 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: IN> Remnant Kyrios and Shedim Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>Q: What happens to Shedim/Kyrios who become Remnants as regards their > >>lack of vessels and roles; do they takeover the poor old host's body > >>permanently? > > > >I'd say they can't become remnants. To do that, you need a vessel, not a > >host. > > I think it might depend... A Shedite wouldn't be able to > 'drop into a vessel' (unless it was a Shedite of Vapula?) A Kyrio > who got into celestial combat and somehow retained hold of a host, > though... That could be interesting. A shedite/kyrio remnant is in deep doo-doo. (That's how all the IN superiors talk... honest!) Here's my take. This doesn't exactly follow standard canon, but does open up opportunities for roleplaying. * When a Shedim/Kyrio lose their celestial forces they also lose their ability to maintain a celestial form. * A shedim just dies unless they are 'lucky' enough to have the bound Discord or some other special condition. If they somehow become remants WHILE inhabiting a host, see the comments for Kyrios below. * A kyrio with access to a vessel is treated like a standard celestial (i.e. they end up in the vessel). Those with a Bound Discord can retreat to that object. * A kyrio is in a similar jam unless they are, as Beth mentioned, in control of a host while in a celestial combat. If they do not have sufficient remaining forces to inhabit that vessel, they are expelled and die. If they do, however, they have a reprieve until their time runs out. At this point, I'd allow the beleagured celestial to try to develop the bound Discord to some object... something their current host is touching for a respectable amount of time, at least an hour. They may not even bother... creatures with Will/0 are noticeably unwilling to do much most of the time. At the GM's whim, I'd allow them to bond with their Host... in essence, they wouldn't be 'possessing' their host, just going along for the ride. With an extremely low Will, they are unlikely to influence much, but they can talk. The degree of integration can be a source of much fun for a GM! * If the Kyrio was in multiple hosts when they become a remnant, they retreat to the largest their current forces will allow. In case of ties it's the GM's whim (the whim might be to let the player decide...) Example: Bobiel is controlling a human (Forces 5) and simultaneously fighting in celestial combat. Unfortunately, he loses all three of his Celestial Forces and becomes a remnant. His remaining forces (6) are enough to maintain control of the Host. He wanders around in a semi-daze for two days when the owner of the body returns from the marches. Not having the foresight (or luck) to become bound to an object, he pitifully clings to the soul of his host, relinquishing any control. The poor host discovers he's lost some memories that he can't recover, and every now and then he hears this voice... - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #871 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.