From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 30 13:49:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19365 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:49:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA01070 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:39:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:39:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199807301839.NAA01070@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #885 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 885 In this digest: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) Re: IN> Meggido/Megiddo/Armaggedon/Armageddon Re: IN> Roles IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:44:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade I bet the sources who described Uriel as presiding over Tartarus saw Tartarus as a prison and Uriel as the prison warden. This would be compatible with your first possibility. For the second, may I suggest that the Word Lucifer gives fallen Uriel is Hatred? (After all, when Beleth fell, her Word changed from Fear to Nightmare, and when Andrealphus fell, his Word changed from Love to Lust.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:50:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade The fact that Outcast does not equal Fallen raises an interesting possibility. There are no Outcast Archangels (or Renegade Princes), but both Eli and Gabriel are on the edge of being Outcast. If that happened, they still wouldn't be Fallen, and one could argue that it would make less difference to them than it would to a normal servitor. An Outcast servitor is cut off and alienated from its Archangel, which is clearly not the cast for the Archangel itself. Similarly, their own servitors would be shielded from a lot of the trauma usually attendant on being Outcast. The net result would be to create a third side in yet another way, though one would have to grant the third side to be very small. Perhaps the Seraphim Council blocks Dominic's investigations of Eli and Gabriel to prevent such a destablizing development, as well as for other reasons. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:25:01 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > For the second, may I suggest that the Word Lucifer gives > fallen Uriel is Hatred? (After all, when Beleth fell, her Word > changed from Fear to Nightmare, and when Andrealphus fell, his > Word changed from Love to Lust.) My first thought was actually to make him the Demon Prince of Abominations. Why Abominations? Well, I was taught that in the Bible, when God speaks of something being "abominable", He is eferring to things that He hates utterly. Things that go against everything He commanded. It sounded like a good Word for the Fallen Uriel, but it would have required more explanation. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I finally gave in to peer pressure! Visit the results at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:22:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > The fact that Outcast does not equal Fallen raises an interesting > possibility. There are no Outcast Archangels (or Renegade Princes), > but both Eli and Gabriel are on the edge of being Outcast. If that > happened, they still wouldn't be Fallen, and one could argue that > Perhaps the Seraphim Council blocks Dominic's investigations of > Eli and Gabriel to prevent such a destablizing development, as > well as for other reasons. I don't think archangels can become outcast. If the divine inquisition decides to act against an archangel, I think that would pretty much mean diband his forces and say goodbye. While Eli and Gabriel are estranged from heaven, I wouldn't say they were outcast. In In Nomine page 29 it says "Outcasts are angels who have lost favor of their archangel....". Also, the word itself seems to indicate that someone has cast them out. While the Seraphim council might be able to do this to an archangel, would they let such a powerfull being go? or for that matter anyone else? Whatever Eli is doing I think he must be doing the right thing (Dominic is way to uptight) and Gabriel...well, if anyone truly cared they would be a little more proactive against Dominic. As for Uriel. I think he tried to change the whole of the symphony into a pure thing... as he saw it. Basically he did his job too well, and while it may not have been bad, it disrupts the experiment. The ethereals are (possibly) created out of the minds of men, and if you kill them aren't you killing their choice. Also, it solved a nasty political problem. But were Uriel to descend into hell with his all of his servitors, I doubt he could overwhelm Lucifer. He aint that powerfull, cuz if he was, then what is this war about? mvg, Jasper Floor If I could make one thing perfectly clear... well, I would. Graem Garden - If I ruled the world (BBC game show) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:31:38 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade > An Outcast servitor is cut off and alienated from its > Archangel, which is clearly not the cast for the Archangel itself. > Similarly, their own servitors would be shielded from a lot of the > trauma usually attendant on being Outcast. I think being outcast also means that the angel is excluded from heaven. For an archangel, it would no longer have access to its cathedral or its servants' hearts. Is it even possible to cut an archangel off from its cathedral? Maybe the cathedral simply moves outside heaven also and .. into the Marches. How do we know there aren't any other previously outcast archangels? It's probably not beyond Yves ability to .. write them out of the symphonic memory, if he thinks they are better off hidden and forgotten. Imagine the PCs wandering the Marches when they see a strangely familiar small blue hut, but one that has never quite been there before. It looks like a humble police telephone box but on exploration, its inside seems so much larger than its outside. 'Ah, you're all Late!' says Doctor, Outcast Archangel of Time, as they pile into the zero room. 'But not to worry, we can always make that up later. And now, we have work to do!' jo (Maybe it's the over-work...) - --- "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." -- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:49:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Hart, Joanna wrote: > It's probably not beyond Yves ability to .. write them out of the > symphonic memory, if he thinks they are better off hidden and >forgotten. > 'Ah, you're all Late!' says Doctor, Outcast Archangel of Time, as > they pile into the zero room. 'But not to worry, we can always make > that up later. And now, we have work to do!' Oooo, I *like* it. And if there's a Word in Heaven likely to conflict with Destiny, it's Time, especially as construed by the Doctor. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:00:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade > 'Ah, you're all Late!' says Doctor, Outcast Archangel of Time, as they pile > into the zero room. 'But not to worry, we can always make that up later. And > now, we have work to do!' > I think I speak for the sane masses of the planet Earth when I just say "No". *grin* - - Em ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 1998 11:39:02 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Roles >>>>> "HJ" == Hart, Joanna writes: HJ> Otherwise we might have to assume that bureacracy contains the HJ> secrets of some strange arcane ritual which influences the way that the HJ> celestial and the corporeal interact. This actually makes perfect sense in an Illuminated IN game. _Of course_ bureaucracy contains the secrets of control over the Symphony. Why else do you think there's so much of it? - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:41:32 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 02:53:12PM +0200, Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: Thus, as > Mr. Doe, it would be perfectly allright to buy the store next door, take a > sledge hammer, and knock out the wall sperating the two (assuming local > ordnances, and building structure allow this), without generating > dissonance. > Unless Mr Doe is a Mercurian, in which case he has to hire someone else to knock down the wall. I'm mean in that I regard acts which harm inanimate objects to be acts of violence and therefore dissonant for Mercurians and (frequently) Servitors of Flowers. This raises interesting questions such as whether Mercurians of Judgement can burn evil books. Oh, and dissonance does not equal disturbance, no matter how badly Night Music is edited. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 1998 11:43:11 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade >>>>> "EW" == Earl Wajenberg writes: EW> For the second, may I suggest that the Word Lucifer gives fallen EW> Uriel is Hatred? (After all, when Beleth fell, her Word changed EW> from Fear to Nightmare, and when Andrealphus fell, his Word EW> changed from Love to Lust.) Intolerance would also be appropriate, as would Self-Righteousness. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:55:14 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? >> For a moment though, think of how long it would take a celestial to plant a >> Role 3. First of all, you need the paper work: birth cert., some form of >> state/national ID, school records, > >I don't know about America, but apparently it's very easy to get fake >birth certs in Ireland. And once you have a birth cert you can get most >other things. So it isn't that hard to put the documentation together for >a Role/3 in a relatively short time. But the thing about Role/3s is that >they're fairly easily broken by a thorough investigation. > >credit reports, tax forms, >> degree/diploma, etc. This doesn't include optional forms: car/house >> titles, club memberships, signed credit card receipts, awards, video store >> membership, etc. >> > >You get this stuff the simple way. You rent/buy a house/flat, thus giving >you titles/entries in rent books. You get tax forms by paying tax, which >one assumes you're likely to do if you're working. (And there are few >Roles that don't involve work.) > Subject: Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) On Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 10:12:34AM -0700, E Kumar wrote: > Don't forget the travelling carnie tent tether of Janus. It only works > while it's erected as in The Marches. Another tether would be active > motorsport raceways on racedays! I think that would be cool! > Which one was that? Oh, you mean the ones owned by Eli and Valefor. I'd imagine that Janus can have fixed Tethers, and that because they're linked to his Word in other ways, they don't have to physically move, and neither to his Servitors while they're there. (So they work off dissonance there rather than gain it.) Places like Kitty Hawk and that Church where Martin Luther nailed his proclamation would make good Tethers. Maybe the Bastille (or even the GPO in Dublin) as well. As for mobile Tethers, methinks a ship makes a better Tether than a travelling carnie tent, anyway. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:06:30 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Meggido/Megiddo/Armaggedon/Armageddon On Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 02:53:42PM -0400, Stacy Stroud wrote: > What *I* had heard about this place, which may fit in perfectly well with > everything others have reported, is that it's been a battlefield *more > often* in history than any other spot on Earth. More blood has been > spilled there than anywhere else. That's probably due to its key location > in the region, as another poster pointed out. > I don't know whether this is true or not, but John Keegan in his book, The History of Warfare, picked Edirne (formerly Adrianople) as the site of the most battles in recorded history . Edirne is in European Turkey, and anyone wanting to besiege Byzantium from the landward side had to go through it, and control it. I can't remember how many battles he mentioned, but there were at least 13 of them, and the first of those wasn't more than a few hundred years BC, so there may well have been plenty of others there beforehand. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:14:15 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Roles >Paperwork starts the moment you show up somewhere, and only high >level roles will need to extend this back to your birth. If you are going to play with paperwork, everyone needs a birth certificate. Give me some low level Roles that don't need one, and I'll tell you why it does. This is a Cold War, and what better way to stick it to Gerry than by blowing his cover? >I believe that highlevel roles are set up over years of work, and I >personally only grant them at character creation. Relievers or imps can >(and do) fake paperwork, but I don't allow reality rewrites, no messing >with people's minds, and such, that would disturb the symphony. Then how would a celestial that had a Role as a stage Magician work in your world? This is messing with people's minds at the best. Or psychiatrist? What about physicist? (Just take some time and truly contemplate dimensional physics, it can give you a headache if your not careful) >mvg, >Jasper Floor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:23:55 -0400 From: NICK_JOST@Non-HP-USA-om42.om.hp.com Subject: IN> Roles - --openmail-part-0e6b7d0f-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="BDY.TXT" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="BDY.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The problem that I see in presenting Roles in that way is what happens > under closer scrutiny. I think that if you have to have all the proper > credentials, then those credentials should be inscrutable. However, the > way you describe things, takes either the same number as it would take a > human or you'll end up with a faulty story. And you just described the venerable level of detail in a level/6 role. The rules come pretty close to saying that if you have a lesser role you stand a chance of getting caught. Demons of the Media I would assume have roles in the 5-6 range because it's important to them. A Malakite of the War sent to make sure some old ladies bingo parlor isn't overrun by agents of the Game and has to be in town for just a couple of days while he bashes heads will have a role of 1. Nick ~ - --openmail-part-0e6b7d0f-00000001-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:35:38 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 09:55:14AM -0800, Armand wrote: > >I don't know about America, but apparently it's very easy to get fake > >birth certs in Ireland. And once you have a birth cert you can get most > >other things. So it isn't that hard to put the documentation together for > >a Role/3 in a relatively short time. But the thing about Role/3s is that > >they're fairly easily broken by a thorough investigation. > > > a Role. > > The problem that I see in presenting Roles in that way is what happens > under closer scrutiny. I think that if you have to have all the proper > credentials, then those credentials should be inscrutible. However, the > way you describe things, takes either the same number as it would take a > human or you'll end up with a faulty story. > This is more or less what I was saying. Role/1s and /2s break apart easily, on first scrutiny. Role/3s and Role/4s are likely to fall apart only under paranoid scrutiny, such as when you commit an offence, or are in a bar in South Armagh. A Role/4 was probably obtained by taking over the identity of someone who's dead or has disappeared. This can cause problems if a disappeared person shows up. Role/5s and /6s, IMC, have to be made up from birth, but are essentially unbreakable because of this. There are jobs that like to talk to your > friends and teachers if you have no prior work experience. > In fairness, if you don't supply references, how many companies are likely to report you to the police? And once you've gotten one job, you can use that as a reference. > Then, if your characters background calls for it, there's college or some > vocational school. More contempraries that need to be filled in by others. I assume that if you want a degree, you have to get that degree yourself, in the vast majority of cases. > You also have loan applications (not too many people can afford to go to > college on their own these days) Your fake birth cert presumably included parents? I haven't made any loan applications because I sponge off my parents. > As we get this character back up into the twenties, everything that he does > gets more paper work attached to it, and is more likely to have said paper > gone over with a fine tooth comb. Taxes become very important. In the US > (I'm not familiar with tax laws of other countries), you need to fill out > form for every job that you take. Your employer fills out forms on how > much you earned, and they send a copy to you and to the government. This > means, unless you have a clone of some kind, that your character (if not > jobless) has to show up to work. Remember, where the law was unable to > catch Al Capone, it was the IRS that brought him to justice. > Frequently, however, the job is part of the Role. I don't assume celestials with the Role "nurse" who don't actually work as nurses. > If the Role is homeless and jobless, don't get caught on the idea that the > Role is safe from investigation. In my city (as well as others, I'm sure), > there are constant studies of the homeless going on. I think 90% of the utility of having a Role is that you are known to the authorities, and to people around you, and that you have mortal contacts and resources as a result. The Disturbance-suppressing aspect is more of a side benefit. > This is a pretty bare character. No hobbies. No interests. Just the bare > minimum that a human growing up in the US has to verify their existence. Celestials can supply their own hobbies and interests, and most likely will, if they possess more personality than a stuffed pillow. > Admittedly, some of it is pretty irrelevant if your character is just an > average citizen that expects to go nowhere above the norm. I just don't > think that celestials fit that image to well. > Some of them would. Isn't there a published angel who runs a hair salon? With a Friend distinction, at that. > I think that I studied too much forensic science to believe that you can > just get away with planting records without stirring up some interest. For > everything that goes on a piece of paper in some file or other, there needs > to be at least two living people to be present. Everytime that the "actor" > isn't present, a flag goes up. Eventually, someone's going to get > interested. > I'm aware of this (though documents do get lost, and at least one Irish government fell because of this, and also of the importance of folk memory. I heard yesterday that an Irish politician named Dessie O'Malley suffered politically because of his grandmother selling poppies for the British Army. I can well believe it, too. So why are Roles so sought after, if they're so difficult to establish? Firstly, because they allow Celestials to subtly nudge human society over a long period of time, which is likely to be more effective than occasional dramatic interventions. Secondly, because the fact of having well-placed people in human society also gives you intelligence on human society. If all your Celestial operatives were outsiders, you'd be in pretty poor shape in that regard. And thirdly, they provide support functions. Estate agents can provide safe houses for Celestials, as well as for explosives and guns. Agents in the Civil Service/Police can block enquiries into Celestials, and solicitors can work (il)legal miracles to get them out of trouble. And if I wanted to sit here and think of more things they're good for, I would. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:30:50 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Roles I still don't have a problem with creating an *initial* reality changing role. So when a new to Earth Angel comes down he's set to go! My justification for this is : a) The starting disturbance is a fine payoff to make all further attempts at affecting the symphony a sound investment. That's why I still use the 'reduced disturbance due to a role' rule. b) Yves has a very good idea what the destinys of all the angels are, so he would have an inkling of an idea for an appropriate surrounding for the Angels work in_regards_to_its_personal_destiny. Add this with, c) The Angels' AA would definately have a strong cocept for that Angels duties and future Word. After all, they may have created the celestial specifically for a certain action. Therefore, setup would begin on behalf of the Angel while they learn songs and skills in heaven to help prep themselves. d) Dreams! The collaberation of a servitor to help those who will be affected by the Angels appearance to be a smooth one. A dreamwlker of Blandine or another Archangels servitor with the borrowed or granted dreamwalking attunement could very easily plant subtle clues that there is a love for a sibling that doesn't exist yet or a mentor teacher etc... In my game right now, the "sister" to the Angel, (who now knows that her feeling were all based on the dreams of having a brother) recently said she was really sad that the Angel really wasn't her much loved sibling. The scene was gorgeous. So the manner that I use is creating some very strong roleplaying and emotional occurences! Isn't that what it's all about? Akira--- - ---------- > From: Kevin Walsh > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 9:41 AM > > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 02:53:12PM +0200, Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > Thus, as > > Mr. Doe, it would be perfectly allright to buy the store next door, take a > > sledge hammer, and knock out the wall sperating the two (assuming local > > ordnances, and building structure allow this), without generating > > dissonance. > > > Unless Mr Doe is a Mercurian, in which case he has to hire someone else to > knock down the wall. I'm mean in that I regard acts which harm inanimate > objects to be acts of violence and therefore dissonant for Mercurians and > (frequently) Servitors of Flowers. This raises interesting questions such > as whether Mercurians of Judgement can burn evil books. > > Oh, and dissonance does not equal disturbance, no matter how badly Night > Music is edited. > > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. > -- > "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive > friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such > methods may gain empire, but not glory." > Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:10:47 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) The Tent is in the Marches Sourcebook! I was just using irt to set up my *cooler* raceway!! VRROOOOOM! - ---------- > From: Kevin Walsh > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> More on tethers (just a little though) > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 9:49 AM > > On Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 10:12:34AM -0700, E Kumar wrote: > > Don't forget the travelling carnie tent tether of Janus. It only works > > while it's erected as in The Marches. Another tether would be active > > motorsport raceways on racedays! I think that would be cool! > > > Which one was that? Oh, you mean the ones owned by Eli and Valefor. > I'd imagine that Janus can have fixed Tethers, and that because they're > linked to his Word in other ways, they don't have to physically move, and > neither to his Servitors while they're there. (So they work off dissonance > there rather than gain it.) Places like Kitty Hawk and that Church where > Martin Luther nailed his proclamation would make good Tethers. Maybe the > Bastille (or even the GPO in Dublin) as well. As for mobile Tethers, > methinks a ship makes a better Tether than a travelling carnie tent, > anyway. > > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. > -- > "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive > friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such > methods may gain empire, but not glory." > Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:44:22 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Are you describing Angels or con-men? - ---------- > From: Kevin Walsh > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 10:35 AM > > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 09:55:14AM -0800, Armand wrote: > > >I don't know about America, but apparently it's very easy to get fake > > >birth certs in Ireland. And once you have a birth cert you can get most > > >other things. So it isn't that hard to put the documentation together for > > >a Role/3 in a relatively short time. But the thing about Role/3s is that > > >they're fairly easily broken by a thorough investigation. > > > > > > a Role. > > > > The problem that I see in presenting Roles in that way is what happens > > under closer scrutiny. I think that if you have to have all the proper > > credentials, then those credentials should be inscrutible. However, the > > way you describe things, takes either the same number as it would take a > > human or you'll end up with a faulty story. > > > This is more or less what I was saying. Role/1s and /2s break apart > easily, on first scrutiny. Role/3s and Role/4s are likely to fall apart > only under paranoid scrutiny, such as when you commit an offence, or are > in a bar in South Armagh. A Role/4 was probably obtained by taking > over the identity of someone who's dead or has disappeared. This > can cause problems if a disappeared person shows up. Role/5s and /6s, IMC, > have to be made up from birth, but are essentially unbreakable because of > this. > > > There are jobs that like to talk to your > > friends and teachers if you have no prior work experience. > > > In fairness, if you don't supply references, how many companies are likely > to report you to the police? And once you've gotten one job, you can use > that as a reference. > > > Then, if your characters background calls for it, there's college or some > > vocational school. More contempraries that need to be filled in by others. > > I assume that if you want a degree, you have to get that degree yourself, > in the vast majority of cases. > > > You also have loan applications (not too many people can afford to go to > > college on their own these days) > > Your fake birth cert presumably included parents? I haven't made any loan > applications because I sponge off my parents. > > > As we get this character back up into the twenties, everything that he does > > gets more paper work attached to it, and is more likely to have said paper > > gone over with a fine tooth comb. Taxes become very important. In the US > > (I'm not familiar with tax laws of other countries), you need to fill out > > form for every job that you take. Your employer fills out forms on how > > much you earned, and they send a copy to you and to the government. This > > means, unless you have a clone of some kind, that your character (if not > > jobless) has to show up to work. Remember, where the law was unable to > > catch Al Capone, it was the IRS that brought him to justice. > > > Frequently, however, the job is part of the Role. I don't assume > celestials with the Role "nurse" who don't actually work as nurses. > > > If the Role is homeless and jobless, don't get caught on the idea that the > > Role is safe from investigation. In my city (as well as others, I'm sure), > > there are constant studies of the homeless going on. > > I think 90% of the utility of having a Role is that you are known to the > authorities, and to people around you, and that you have mortal contacts > and resources as a result. The Disturbance-suppressing aspect is more of a > side benefit. > > > This is a pretty bare character. No hobbies. No interests. Just the bare > > minimum that a human growing up in the US has to verify their existence. > > Celestials can supply their own hobbies and interests, and most likely > will, if they possess more personality than a stuffed pillow. > > > Admittedly, some of it is pretty irrelevant if your character is just an > > average citizen that expects to go nowhere above the norm. I just don't > > think that celestials fit that image to well. > > > Some of them would. Isn't there a published angel who runs a hair salon? > With a Friend distinction, at that. > > > I think that I studied too much forensic science to believe that you can > > just get away with planting records without stirring up some interest. For > > everything that goes on a piece of paper in some file or other, there needs > > to be at least two living people to be present. Everytime that the "actor" > > isn't present, a flag goes up. Eventually, someone's going to get > > interested. > > > I'm aware of this (though documents do get lost, and at least one Irish > government fell because of this, and also of the importance of folk > memory. I heard yesterday that an Irish politician named Dessie O'Malley > suffered politically because of his grandmother selling poppies for the > British Army. I can well believe it, too. > > So why are Roles so sought after, if they're so difficult to establish? > Firstly, because they allow Celestials to subtly nudge human society over > a long period of time, which is likely to be more effective than > occasional dramatic interventions. Secondly, because the fact of having > well-placed people in human society also gives you intelligence on human > society. If all your Celestial operatives were outsiders, you'd be in > pretty poor shape in that regard. And thirdly, they provide support > functions. Estate agents can provide safe houses for > Celestials, as well as for explosives and guns. Agents in the Civil > Service/Police can block enquiries into Celestials, and solicitors can > work (il)legal miracles to get them out of trouble. And if I wanted to sit > here and think of more things they're good for, I would. > > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. > -- > "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive > friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such > methods may gain empire, but not glory." > Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:23:37 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Kevin Walsh wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 09:55:14AM -0800, Armand wrote: > > >I don't know about America, but apparently it's very easy to get fake > > >birth certs in Ireland. And once you have a birth cert you can get most > > >other things. So it isn't that hard to put the documentation together for > > >a Role/3 in a relatively short time. But the thing about Role/3s is that > > >they're fairly easily broken by a thorough investigation. > > > > > > a Role. > > > > The problem that I see in presenting Roles in that way is what happens > > under closer scrutiny. I think that if you have to have all the proper > > credentials, then those credentials should be inscrutible. However, the > > way you describe things, takes either the same number as it would take a > > human or you'll end up with a faulty story. > > > This is more or less what I was saying. Role/1s and /2s break apart > easily, on first scrutiny. Role/3s and Role/4s are likely to fall apart > only under paranoid scrutiny, such as when you commit an offence, or are > in a bar in South Armagh. A Role/4 was probably obtained by taking > over the identity of someone who's dead or has disappeared. This > can cause problems if a disappeared person shows up. Role/5s and /6s, IMC, > have to be made up from birth, but are essentially unbreakable because of > this. Playing the Cold War card; let's go back to the angel in customs. Let's give him a Role of 4. He's a reporter for a small town television show. For some reason, there is a demon customs officer. "I don't think this man is really a reporter, we should check him for drugs." The demon plants appropriate substances in the travelling angel's bag. Now, the investigation is under way. In my system, it works like slight of hand (I don't find slight of hand all that Disturbing). You put the right inflection on the words, fo the right hand sign, and there is no suspicion. Of course, the demon could still call forth an investigation. The investigation, due to the effects of having a sufficient Role level, would believe that they found what they were looking for to identify the reporter for being a reporter. Soldiers and celestials can see around this, but how can they explain to others around them that they know more of what's going on without sounding like a crack-pot? > > Then, if your characters background calls for it, there's college or some > > vocational school. More contempraries that need to be filled in by others. > > I assume that if you want a degree, you have to get that degree yourself, > in the vast majority of cases. To my way of thinking, just another way that celestials waste time trying to be inscrutibly human. I like my Heaven and Hell to be a tad more efficient. No, I do not think that earning a degree (as far as celestials go) is time well spent. > > You also have loan applications (not too many people can afford to go to > > college on their own these days) > > Your fake birth cert presumably included parents? I haven't made any loan > applications because I sponge off my parents. Pretty impressive, but the key here are the words "not too many". My wife was able to "sponge" off her parents, but still needed to take out loans for herself in her name. She comes from a middle class background, and is of above average intelligence. I know far more people for whom this is the case. So, many celestials would need to apply for a loan application if they wanted that college degree in the paperwork system for Roles. Armand ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #885 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.