From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 31 12:31:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA31635 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:31:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA27513 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:30:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:30:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199807311730.MAA27513@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #888 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 31 1998 Volume 01 : Number 888 In this digest: IN> The Good Old Days Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> IN- Roles Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) IN> Re: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> Roles Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> IN- Roles Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:41:17 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> The Good Old Days >(DIGRESSION: >IMHO, one of the things that makes Hell horrifying is that it is >personal. CoC works because of the cosmic horror turn; the universe >is just something that the human mind cannot conceive. Hell in >In Nomine works best when it is utterly personal; there are evil >powers that bear particular and personal malice towards each >individual. Firm agreement! >IMC, it is theoretically possible to get Jean reminiscing about >organizing a tour to the corporeal realm, to watch the symmetries break >and the four basic forces form. Or find some old angels and listen to >their stories about Michael and Lucifer debating theology in the streets >of Heaven, just before the Fall ("Who won? Well, I think Michael did, but >obviously 1/3 of the Host disagreed."). Oh, good. Mind you, time is different for them... so some of them may have more or less slept through the period from the Big Bang to the rise of humanity, knowing that something a bit more interesting was coming along, and not being all that interested in gas clouds and trilobites. Still, it might be fun to catch an old-timer chatting about the good old days when the Earth's atmosphere was methane and CO2, and some angels spent millenia painting tapestries across continents using webs and stains of colored bacteria... "There was none of this _oxygen_ stuff around in those days! And none of this business with cells having a _nucleus_! It was straight DNA -- no chaser! And we liked it that way...!" Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:46:33 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) I think alot of it has to do with free will of humans. If humans were guided into every possible decision than the whole point ( which is still being discovered) would be lost. It's better for a human to choose his destiny over fate reather than just being granted it. One of my players came up with an interesting thought. He said Lucifer the Lightbringer is actually Gods ally! Their discussion before the Eden experiment made them try to see what would happen if they allowed humans to live in an imperfect world rather than a utopia like Eden. Lucifer would be the tempting force to see if humans were worthy of all the fuss. This opinion obviously holds that humans are a key factor in the war, not just the prize. Cool to think about though. Akira-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:19:56 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> IN- Roles On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Doug Muir wrote: > > > > >Namely, you simply take over the life that someone else has > established. > > Note that if the death is inconspicuous (a quiet heart attack, or > suchlike), the celestial might simply move in and take over without > anyone being the wiser. > > There are complications, of course. Is the celestial taking over the > vacated body, or disposing of it and whipping up a new one? And how > much does he know about the deceased? > > Hmm... he'd be able to get a debriefing from the soul of the late > departed... *if* that person was heading for the appropriate > destination... hmm. I just got this flash of some really weird stuff happening if this is general practice on both sides, and both an Angel and a Demon try to take over the same Role... or maybe several Celestials from the same side? I can well imagine that these Roles are in short supply, which could lead to some interesting conflicts... I like it more and more! :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:02:47 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? Pg 95-96 of the Angelic Players guide details the petitioning of a word. It's a fairly long and arduous affair. Elsewhere in the book it says,"...The Seraphim Council cannot take away a word by decree."(pg 103 ) According to what I've read, I think it's part of the word bound angels duty to strenghthen the word or suffer the consequences . So,unfortunately, the Angel of Cannons would probably have to find a way to empower his Word.( He'd probably be a subordinate to the Angel of Artillery). Even outcasts keep their word. The only way I've seen a word taken away or changed in context is through falling, sharing a word, or being killed by someone else who petitions it. So whatever word you accept in the first place, make sure you want it. Woe to the Angel of 8-tracks! Akira-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:25:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Roles On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 02:53:12PM +0200, Jasper Reijer Floor wrote: > Thus, as > > Mr. Doe, it would be perfectly allright to buy the store next door, take a > > sledge hammer, and knock out the wall sperating the two (assuming local > > ordnances, and building structure allow this), without generating > > dissonance. > > > Unless Mr Doe is a Mercurian, in which case he has to hire someone else to > knock down the wall. I'm mean in that I regard acts which harm inanimate > objects to be acts of violence and therefore dissonant for Mercurians and > (frequently) Servitors of Flowers. This raises interesting questions such > as whether Mercurians of Judgement can burn evil books. I cannot agree with you definition of violence. I wouldn't let mercurians verbally abuse anyone as this I consider violent. However, while knocking down a wall can be considered destructive (in the purest sense of the term), and under a certain point of view even violent, I would argue that this was not the intent. But that is I suppose your choice. > Oh, and dissonance does not equal disturbance, no matter how badly Night > Music is edited. I meant disturbance when I said dissonance. I apologize profusely for that terrible mistake. I cannot imagine what I was thinking. Being a student of computer science I won't say you could have known what I meant and let the whole thing be (I wouldn't ;>) and I will refrain from poiting out that you probably could've deduced my intention rather than what I wrote. mvg, Jasper Floor She is pretty to walk with, And witty to talk with, And pleasant, too, to think on. Sir John Suckling - Brennoralt. Act ii. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:53:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Armand wrote: > I think that I studied too much forensic science to believe that you can > just get away with planting records without stirring up some interest. For > everything that goes on a piece of paper in some file or other, there needs > to be at least two living people to be present. Everytime that the "actor" > isn't present, a flag goes up. Eventually, someone's going to get > interested. Perhaps. But I've studied to much computer science to have faith in the accuracy of any one record. Only a whole interconnected web of records can establish someone's identity, and even then missing things will be considered strange rather than evidence of wrongdoing. I do believe that some relievers do nothing other than create roles. How many angels were there in austin? about five, I believe, and an equal number of demons. Point is according to the 1996 U.S. census the population of texas was 541278. Even in medieval times humans would've outnumbered active angels by alot. I personally think that there are a huge amount of angels/relievers, so a little thing like having relievers do nothing but creating roles, is not a problem. AS for investigating these roles and becoming suspicious, if Joe from Montana get investigated in Washington D.C. for whatever reason, what are the odds that the investigators will personally or by proxy investigate his birth certificate, first grade teacher, old friends, distant relatives? I do not think they would, unless he's being prosecuted for some pretty serious things. And even if they do (I suppose people active in the media would fall under this), what are they gonna find. Gee, 1+2 = 3 but I only have 2.56834, this guy is a fraud let's get him. No way. Unless they can establish, or have some reason to believe he is not who he says he is, then they will let things like that go as immensly irritating faults in the system. You can't go around assuming people are doing something wrong merely because some bureaucrat messed up the paper work, or some person doesn't remember, or perhaps doesn't want to talk about something. Yes, any role (except perhaps level 6) will fall apart under immense scrutiny, only then you are left with, gee this is weird, not a crime. Unless there is reason to do otherwise why would people assume anything else. And last but not least, I mentioned that only high level roles bother going back to birth in order to establish someone's identity, to which someone replied, what about birth certificates. I was expecting that and wasn't let down. Things like birth certificates do get created for low level roles, what I meant was the more mundane records that do not directly establish your identity, but would exist if you were around. credit card transactions, atm transactions, bank records, tax records, first grade report cards, pictures drawn when you were a toddler.... mvg, Jasper Floor She is pretty to walk with, And witty to talk with, And pleasant, too, to think on. Sir John Suckling - Brennoralt. Act ii. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:11:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jasper Reijer Floor Subject: Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, R. Sean Borgstrom wrote: > It has always seemed to me that Gabriel's angels are slighted somewhat -- > many of their Choir Attunements are more a part of their dissonance condition > than useful abilities. Accordingly, I present a few additions to those > Attunements. While I think you're additions are cool, I think they are too powerful. unless you meant them to replace, but even then... I like the atunements the way the written, because it helps them do their job. Fire is a primal force, and servitors of fire should be primal beings. mvg, Jasper floor She is pretty to walk with, And witty to talk with, And pleasant, too, to think on. Sir John Suckling - Brennoralt. Act ii. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:55:30 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements I loved that new cherub attunement. Very neat. I thought a neat one for elohim of fire might be something that allowed them to convert ethereal damage into corporeal damage (burns, naturally). ie. burning the emotional pain away from someone. Mind you, I also thought a neat fire attunement would be one that allowed the user to totally absorb the information from any written material by.. burning it. Then make them succeed in an intelligence roll any time they wanted to access the information they had 'read.' It theoretically means that an angel of fire could learn an awful lot from burning down a library; but surely that would never happen! jo - --- "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." -- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:24:31 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) At 09:46 AM 7/31/98 , you wrote: >I think alot of it has to do with free will of humans. >If humans were guided into every possible decision than the whole point ( >which is still being discovered) would be lost. It's better for a human to >choose his destiny over fate reather than just being granted it. Major question: can free will really be excercised without valid information? If people are raised to the belief that angels and demons are just fairy tales, naturally they won't contemplate "doing the good thing"; but if they knew that demons and angels *are* out there, that their actions *are* counted, even if the local police didn't catch them breaking and entering\shoplifting\vandalising\whatever, then they'll be prone to contemplate their actions. I think both angels and demons have good reasons to show their true nature: the angels for the obvious reasons, and the demons since they are the ultimate rebels. "Do you really want to spend eternity, and I mean *eternity*, contemplating the abstract notion of goodness? I tell you these people are the jailors, these people prevent you from truly becoming a god. Remember that old Biblical story, how God threw Adam and Eve out of Paradise? Well, he did so because he feared men would be as gods. We're trying to show you the way to Paradise once more, and it involves getting rid of all those shackles society put on you. Drop those taboos! To become a God, you must first stop being human!" (sorry, too much Nietzsche lately). Naturally, they wouldn't keep too high a profile, as the locals might look for a handy pitchfork and torch, but they will make their presence known. The amgel I'm playing, a Malakite of Gabriel, does not hesitate to show his true nature to humans, if he thinks it would help. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:10:39 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: IN> Re: Roles and what to do...) If you ever had the chance to read the Incarnations of Immortality series by Piers Anthony, Hell was a very popular place. They had PR, billboards, even a test-Hell where you could try out all the good stuff, like prostitutes, gambling, and other vices without punishment. And a lot of people bought into it. And if the celestial became open, don't you think Nybbas would start the PR campaign? Hell- everything you always wanted in an afterlife, and less. We got Lilim- what more do you need? Straight and Narrow? Not with us! Do what you want, we'll take care of it all? What's God done for **you** lately? Come to Hell, for that personal service you expect in an afterlife. and so on... Brian Ward On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:30:02 PDT "Doug Muir" writes: > >Umm, some disagreement here. > >This is the reason *Hell* doesn't show its hand. A clear >demonstration >of the existence of demons would, of course, cause every rational >thinking person to immediately change their ways and follow the >straight >and narrow path (we will set aside, for the moment, the question of >what >proportion of humanity is actually rational and thinking). If I were >seeing the minions of Tartarus live on the evening news, believe me, I > >would change my life. > >Heaven's situation is somewhat trickier. If I knew angels were real, >I >don't know if it would make me run in terror... though it might; in >the >Bible, angelic appearances are often preceded by the angel saying, "Be >not afraid!". But whether it spooked me or not, I think it would >definitely have the following negative effects: > >1. The destruction of faith. Faith is largely or wholly unnecessary >if >we *know* God and his angels exist. The IN canon fuzzes the >importance >of faith or the lack thereof... but since all three major monotheistic >religions place heavy hevy emphasis on it, I think we can assume that >it's at least significant. > >2. Spiritual slacking. If I know that angels are out there, and are >tasked with helping me, I may just not want to work that hard... on >being a better person, or on anything, really. "Sure, I have a>drinking >problem. Hey, you guys have a Song that'll fix that, right? What? >You >won't just _solve_ my problem? Okay, well, then I'm just going to >have >another shot of tequila... and it's *not* my problem anymore, God boy; > >it's *your* fault for not doing your job and helping me... > >So Heaven and Hell have different, but equally compelling reasons to >keep things quiet. > > >Doug M. > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:48:11 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Roles At 4:09 PM -0400 7/30/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >Ah, my bad. Though I'm not sure I'd call knocking down a wall violence. >IMO, the Mercurian Dissonance definition strongly suggests that it's >violence against people, or at least sentient beings. "It is the >antithesis of politics" - I am hard pressed to see a political solution to >that will get that wall down. :) Knocking down a wal can be violent, but then, it's the difference between simple construction/destruction, and taking out your anger against someone else upon the poor, defenseless wall. Enraged Mercurians don't beat up stuffed animals, they don't throw pillows or crockery, they either talk it out, resort to verbal attacks, or take it out on the nearest obliging demon. Or at least, that's my opinion. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Senaieas, Shedite Baron of Lust, the Demon of Voyeurism nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:55:37 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Roles In a message dated 98-07-30 15:25:00 EDT, you write: > > Mr. Doe, it would be perfectly allright to buy the store next door, take a >> > sledge hammer, and knock out the wall sperating the two (assuming local >> > ordnances, and building structure allow this), without generating >> > dissonance. >> > >> Unless Mr Doe is a Mercurian, in which case he has to hire someone else to >> knock down the wall. I'm mean in that I regard acts which harm inanimate >> objects to be acts of violence and therefore dissonant for Mercurians and >> (frequently) Servitors of Flowers. This raises interesting questions such >> as whether Mercurians of Judgement can burn evil books. > > This is non-canon, as far as I can understand. Mercurian's love people, > they don't abhor violence. There's a difference. They can kick the sh*t > out of demons, for example (if they care to learn how to kick the sh*t out > of anything, which isn't the sort of thing they usually get around to). > Besides, I'm not sure I agree with the notion that knocking down a wall can/should be considered a violent act. Violence is by its definition, "exertion of physical force for the purpose of violating or abusing." Now I suppose if someone -really- wanted to be a stinker about it, the GM could smack my mercurian with dissonance and argue that I was abusing the wall, or even violating it, but it wouldn't be very long and I'd be finding another GM. You're describing a scenario where the game has gotten to be too "nitpicky" and is no longer fun. -- Thom. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:01:56 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Roles In a message dated 98-07-30 15:45:30 EDT, you write: > Pruning and surgery are also > arguably non-violent (and I'd tend to lean that way myself). I wouldn't > let a Mercurian chop down a tree though. ...except that my mercurian serves Flowers and the tree is dying of some kind of fungal rot, or some such nonsense. Point is, there are circumstances you have to consider before declaring an action violent. If I chopped down a tree because I *hated* it, now that probably is violent and would deserve some dissonance. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:28:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Roles Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Midwife, and they aren't only for "country" deliveries. There are some > cities which also have midwives who will attend home-deliveries. They aren't even just for home deliveries. Our daughter was born mostly under the superintendence of a midwife, at a hospital. The obstetrician gets called in at the crucial moment, or in case of complications. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:53:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Doug Muir wrote, concerning why celestials stay hidden: > 1. The destruction of faith. Faith is largely or wholly > unnecessary if we *know* God and his angels exist. This depends on what kind of "faith" you mean. There are several meanings for the word. One of them is firmly maintaining belief. But another one is loyalty. Clearly, faith-as-loyalty could be an issue in a public-celestial world, because it is an issue for the celestials themselves. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:51:50 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> IN- Roles Doug Muir wrote: > Hey, I kinda like this one. > > Note that if the death is inconspicuous (a quiet heart attack, or > suchlike), the celestial might simply move in and take over without > anyone being the wiser. > > There are complications, of course. Is the celestial taking over the > vacated body, or disposing of it and whipping up a new one? And how > much does he know about the deceased? > > Hmm... he'd be able to get a debriefing from the soul of the late > departed... *if* that person was heading for the appropriate > destination... hmm. I had imagined that you have to create a vessel to impersonate the person in question. I don't think that taking over a corpse would be at all canon, particularly given the attunement of Shedim of Death. Part of the answers to these questions depends upon how fast a deceased soul arrives at its final destination. With enough speed, some of the cases could be started after the person has died; say, in the case of a missing hiker who dies but no one finds the body immediately. Again, this all is probably easier for those who are willing to select a target and off him/her themselves; you can get a lot of the planning done ahead of time. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:42:12 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) >Heaven's situation is somewhat trickier. If I knew angels were real, I >don't know if it would make me run in terror... though it might; in the >Bible, angelic appearances are often preceded by the angel saying, "Be >not afraid!". But whether it spooked me or not, I think it would >definitely have the following negative effects: 1) This assumes that you would be able to tell the difference between an angel and a demon. To paraphrase Terry Pratchett, "Because demons are fallen angels, the main difference is that demons spend more time grooming their wings." I really don't think that I, as a human being, would be able to detect a difference. 2) Supernatural phenomena is not a normal part of anyones existence. If you can find a video tape of David Blain's "Street Magic", then I would suggest watching it. He just walks up to people and asks them if they would like to see something. If they say yes, then he proceeds to perform magic tricks. The reaction that people have is usually something of a fear light. He's just a human, imagine seeing a Seraph for the first time. For me, it would be change the clothing time. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:59:56 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? >AS for investigating these roles and becoming suspicious, if Joe from >Montana get investigated in Washington D.C. for whatever reason, what are >the odds that the investigators will personally or by proxy investigate >his birth certificate, first grade teacher, old friends, distant >relatives? I do not think they would, unless he's being prosecuted for >some pretty serious things. My point on this is that falsified lives usually are uncovered. Maybe I don't have enough faith in celestial perfection, but that's how I see things. As to why your Joe might get "investigated": Joe gets hurt in a car accident, medical records in Montana seem vague. So the doctor calls to find out more. The responses he's getting are likewise vague and puzzling. The doctor becomes curious, and looks into it on his own. Joe does something really good for DC. The Post decides to do a human interest story on him. They go back to his home town to get some personal data. When they find few people had heard of this good samaritan, they get curious. Joe is homeless in DC. Various organiztion see to his care, but need to verify his existence so that they can help him back on his feet. They start pulling at all the records that they can get their hands on to verify education. If anything looks questionable, they're going to want to talk to someone. If there isn't anyoe to talk to, then they're going to get curious. As a GM, I think that I must have the most paranoid group on the face of the planet. I told them about the paperwork system, and they started in on all the ways that there character could be traced around and found out for not being who they say they are. This did not sit well with anyone, especially not the Seraph player. As I say, though, I've got paranoid players. >mvg, >Jasper Floor Armand ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:29:16 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> IN- Lost Words? >Pg 95-96 of the Angelic Players guide details the petitioning of a word. >It's a fairly long and arduous affair. Elsewhere in the book it >says,"...The Seraphim Council cannot take away a word by decree."(pg 103 ) Riiight... but this is not the same as saying that a Word _cannot be lost_ under any circumstances. >According to what I've read, I think it's part of the word bound angels >duty to strenghthen the word or suffer the consequences . >So,unfortunately, the Angel of Cannons would probably have to find a way to >empower his Word.( He'd probably be a subordinate to the Angel of >Artillery). Okay, but how *is* the Angel of Passenger Pigeons going to empower his word? Work to heighten awareness of extinct species? And what about Angels of cities, organizations, or political entities that no longer exist? The Demon of the Soviet Union might try to work for a comeback, but what about the Angels of Carthage, the Hanseatic League, or the Whig Party? Also, in some cases it seems hard to argue that a celestial even *should* promote his Word. I mean, there probably still are Demons of Punch Cards or Whale-Oil Lamps -- those things haven't *quite* disappeared from the world yet -- but just what would they be trying to accomplish these days? Things dwindle, and sometimes they disappear altogether. If there were celestials Word-bound to trilobites, the original St. Paul's Cathedral, the Hittite people, the dodo, the Holy Roman Empire, Aristotle's _Comedy_, smallpox, trial by combat, the Maya states, or the Divine Right of Kings, then those guys are either seriously under- or totally un-employed. Furthermore, there are *new* things popping up all the time. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of new Words associated with the computer industry alone. Does it make sense for Heaven to keep some angel bound to the Word of Balancing the Humours Through Bleeding when there is a desperate need for new angels to take the Words of Magnetic Resonance Imaging, Communication Satellites and Cloning? > Even outcasts keep their word. The only way I've seen a word >taken away or changed in context is through falling, sharing a word, or >being killed by someone else who petitions it. Right... those are the only ones we've seen in canon... but that still doesn't answer the question. >So whatever word you accept in the first place, make sure you want it. > >Woe to the Angel of 8-tracks! He's off drinking with the Demon of Pet Rocks, at a little tavern run jointly by the Angel of 78 RPM Records and the Demon of Telegraph Delivery Boys. Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 12:32 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) >1. The destruction of faith. Faith is largely or wholly unnecessary if >we *know* God and his angels exist. The IN canon fuzzes the importance >of faith or the lack thereof... but since all three major monotheistic >religions place heavy hevy emphasis on it, I think we can assume that >it's at least significant. My interpretation of IN's stance on this is that faith, per se, isn't terribly important -- what's important is that humans choose to do the Right Thing on their own. Setting up a visitation of angels on nationwide TV wouldn't help that very much -- too much force. Hell has similar motivations, besides the "scared straight" effect. After all, they score points against God by having humans freely give themselves over to Hell. Forcing things (too much, anyway) may not count. It's probably not surprising that religions put emphasis on faith (and it's not just the monotheistic ones, though the slant is a little different there) -- they're not likely to go around telling you that believing in religion isn't important, after all.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 12:42 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? >Is it ever possible for a Word-bound celestial to lose his or her Word? Falling will do this, so will redemption -- I believe this is in current canon. I'm not sure about any other cases. >Or to change it to another one? Apparently possible, or Furfur in Night Music wouldn't have tried to get his changed. >My initial reaction was "no". But... in that case, what happens to the >Word-bound whose Words have simply ceased to exist? They weaken greatly, possibly even die. > Like the Angel of >Passenger Pigeons, In this case, at least, the Word hasn't ceased to exist, just the physical species it refers to. The *concept* of the Passenger Pigeon is still with us, as a major example of ecological tampering. So this one, at least, I would claim is alive and well, and possibly more powerful than before, though with rather different duties. > or the Demon of Traditional Etruscan Drinking Songs? Who says he hasn't translated them into other languages and spread them around? >Technological advances, social changes, wars and extinction can render >some Words obsolete or completely nonexistent. What happens to the >celestial then? They weaken back to roughly what they'd have been without a Word, I think. Possibly even further in some cases. It's canon that Word-bound Senschals typically die when their Tether goes. >Could a celestial have a Word stripped as punishment? Or "upgraded" as >a reward? Or changed to reflect equivalent changes in the Symphony? -- >Like the Demon of Cannon becoming the Demon of Artillery, say. Certainly Lucifer can change them (from the Furfur example), so I'd assume he could strip them as well. The Seraphim Council probably can, too, though this is less clear. They may feel that if the Word weakened, the one who is the Word should fade naturally with it. I don't have a firm feeling about this one. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:51:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Doug Muir wrote: > Okay, but how *is* the Angel of Passenger Pigeons going to empower his > word? Work to heighten awareness of extinct species? Carefully tending the dovecotes full of surviving passenger pigeons that he set up years ago in self-defense? Actually, it would appear that Words allow of a certain amount of "linguistic drift." Thus Gabriel presides over the fires of inspiration and madness as well as literal fire, and Novalis presides over peace and mercy, which have no very real connection to flowers. How this shifting is done is not clear, but at some of these celestials might have been able to keep up with the times, e.g.: > The Demon of the Soviet Union might try to work > for a comeback, but what about the Angels of Carthage, the Hanseatic > League, or the Whig Party? Carthage still exists as a suburb of (I think) Tunis. The demon might preside over the suburb, or he may have been able to acquire all of Tunis. If he was clever, industrious, and lucky, the demon of the Hanseatic League is now the demon of the Gnomes of Zurich. The demon of the Whig party might now claim the Conservatives. Or not. I don't say these shifts always succeed. I don't think a ruling exists on the status of Worded celestials with extinct Words. Personally, I'd have them dwindle back down to pre-Word power levels, and played with a certain amount of nostalgia, depression, or grudge-bearing. Another way to be a Come-Back Kid might be to get a new Word. Jordi probably has to face this regularly. "Okay, boss, I did good with the trilobites. Sorry I didn't get them through that last mass extinction, but you've always told us no species lasts forever, right? ('Course, you usually say it about Homo sapiens...) Anyway, got any openings? I've got a lot of background experience suitable for horseshoe crabs. Butterflies would be nice, though..." Jean's angels present the same thing, only faster. "Hello, I'm Sariel, Angel of CDs, formerly Angel of 78s, formerly Angel of Player-Piano Rolls. This is my friend Carenel, formerly Angel of Phonograph Cyliners, then it was LPs wasn't it? now 8-tracks, but he's got his eye on audio chips, don't you old fellow? We're a sort of team, you see." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:02 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? >AS for investigating these roles and becoming suspicious, if Joe from >Montana get investigated in Washington D.C. for whatever reason, what are >the odds that the investigators will personally or by proxy investigate >his birth certificate, first grade teacher, old friends, distant >relatives? I do not think they would, unless he's being prosecuted for >some pretty serious things. I don't know about prosecutions, but I do know two types of investigations that *are* likely to go to these lengths: - Government security clearances. Even for a simple Secret clearance, the FBI may check individual references like school teachers and family, and even talk to your neighbors. Top Secret clearances are much worse. And they'll definitely look carefully at your paper trail. - Media investigations of major public figures. They'll look into *anything*, if they smell a story that will grab headlines. But they won't care if Joe the grocer is who he says he is, unless there's some obvious human interest story involved (such as wives in four different cities). But anyone who qualifies as a "celebrity" is at risk of this sort of thing. This may be why Role level must be at least as high as Status. > And even if they do (I suppose people active >in the media would fall under this), what are they gonna find. Gee, 1+2 = >3 but I only have 2.56834, this guy is a fraud let's get him. No way. >Unless they can establish, or have some reason to believe he is not who he >says he is, then they will let things like that go as immensly irritating >faults in the system. You can't go around assuming people are doing >something wrong merely because some bureaucrat messed up the paper work, >or some person doesn't remember, or perhaps doesn't want to talk about >something. Actually, they can, especially if they were investigating because they spotted something weird about you in the first place. You might not be arrested, but you might easily become the subject of intense scrutiny by the cops, security agencies, or reporters, under the assumption that where there's smoke, there's fire. One or two minor anomalies won't bother them much, but a *pattern* of them will. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:09:48 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? On Fri, Jul 31, 1998 at 12:51:24PM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Okay, but how *is* the Angel of Passenger Pigeons going to empower his > > word? Work to heighten awareness of extinct species? > > Carefully tending the dovecotes full of surviving passenger pigeons > that he set up years ago in self-defense? > He set up Pigeon Airlines! And was promptly outcasted by Jordi for behaving in a too-human manner. > If he was clever, industrious, and lucky, the demon of the > Hanseatic League is now the demon of the Gnomes of Zurich. > Hmm...if he was cleverer, he saw the end coming and got himself promoted to The Demon of Trading Alliances. > The demon of the Whig party might now claim the Conservatives. > I have to nitpick here. The Liberal Democrats are the linear descendants of the Whigs (sort of). Conservatives are Tories (which incidentally comes from an Irish word meaning fugitive). The Demon of the Whigs' best shot is to try to become the Demon of Liberals, because he can expand that beyond Britain. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:11:49 -0700 From: Dale Friesen Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Doug Muir wrote: > >> Okay, but how *is* the Angel of Passenger Pigeons going to empower his >> word? Work to heighten awareness of extinct species? > >Carefully tending the dovecotes full of surviving passenger pigeons >that he set up years ago in self-defense? That or he just fades into the Symphony. If we accept that tethers are words, we have Canonical evidence of this in NM with the Old Guy. His tether is dying, and he has accepted that when it dies he dies too. At least, that's how I interpret it. Any opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily the book store's. Dale Friesen Sysadmin Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada dfriesen@amtsgi.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #888 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.