From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Aug 1 15:52:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07565 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:52:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA18548 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:52:53 -0500 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:52:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199808012052.PAA18548@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #890 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, August 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 890 In this digest: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> Investigation Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #887 IN> Angels going to GenCon Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> Angels going to GenCon Re: IN> Angels going to GenCon Re: IN> Singing Question Re: IN> Angels going to GenCon Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? IN> Multiple Roles? IN> HELLO ANY BODY HOME IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> IN- Roles Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? IN> Musings on Magog Re: IN> HELLO ANY BODY HOME IN> Free will and attendant evils ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:04:53 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> IN- Lost Words? >My own personal take on the situation is that you are in trouble if your >word dies. So don't apply for trivial words. Yeah, but it's possible to have Words that are nontrivial, vital even, but *temporary* by their very nature. The Angel of the Roman Empire, say, or the Demon of Cavalry Charges. The Demon of CDs is fairly important right now, but in fifty years he's going to be drinking in the same cruddy bar as the Angel of 8-tracks and the Demon of Betamax. *Something* -- DVDs, panmagnetic type, telepathy, something -- is going to make them quite obsolete within that time. Any Word that is either political or technological in nature is probably doomed. And that covers quite a lot of ground. > I think the Seraphim council >(or Lucifer) would allow trivial words just as an example to others. Oh, that's canon. It's clearly stated (somewhere) that Lucifer gives out misery names. I think the Demons of Stale Bong Water and Pocket Fluff were mentioned. >I'm not sure it's really kosher >to change words, under these circumstances. It would be like having a >heart transplant, while you were awake (unless you fall (are redeemed) >which is painful enough as it is.) Well, I agree... it probably *is* really painful and unpleasant. But sometimes it would be necessary, n'est ce pas? Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 17:21 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? >>>My initial reaction was "no". But... in that case, what happens to >the >>>Word-bound whose Words have simply ceased to exist? >> >>They weaken greatly, possibly even die. > >Everybody keeps saying this, but it doesn't seem to be directly >supported by canon. There was the Demon of Steam in H&H, but he was >still very much around, albeit rather discordant. The Old Guy in Night >Music appeared to be fading because his *tether* was dying, not his >*Word*. Well, in the new Tether canon, it's clarified -- the Old Guy is dying *because* he's Word-bound to the Treaty Oak, which is dying. All Word-bound Seneschals have this problem. (There's another example mentioned in FotM, as it happens.) So it's not supported by canon that's actually *out*, but it is in the stuff the writers are working to, sort of. There's still no clear canon statement that I know of, whether regular Word-bound can die if their Word weakens too much. In the Tether case, the Word is the Tether, which can clearly cease to exist. For Words that are somewhat more conceptual, it's not so obvious what would happen. There is some stuff in the murky background of the Tether mechanics that does indicate that have your Word weaken will also weaken you, and maybe some IPG stuff as well. But whether actual soul-death can happen is less clear. >>> Like the Angel of Passenger Pigeons, >> >>In this case, at least, the Word hasn't ceased to exist, just the >>physical species it refers to. The *concept* of the Passenger Pigeon >is >>still with us, as a major example of ecological tampering. So this >one, >>at least, I would claim is alive and well, and possibly more powerful >>than before, though with rather different duties. > >I knew someone would say that. But I think that job would go to the >Angel of the Dodo. And even if you want to argue it, there's still the >question of what happened to the Angels of the mammoth, ground sloth, >Carolina parakeet, Steller's sea cow, triceraratops, ammonite, >multituberculate, thylacine, and smallpox virus. Threre are gajillions >of extinct species... tens of thousands even if you restrict it to the >famous or "important" ones. Their celestials can't *all* be pushing >Discovery Channel specials on biodiversity. But the passenger pigeon is one, like the dodo, that is widely recognized. I agree that many of the other extinct species probably have bigger problems, though I'd claim that anyone Word-bound to a popular dinosaur species is probably OK, if they hung on this long. >>> or the Demon of Traditional Etruscan Drinking Songs? >> >>Who says he hasn't translated them into other languages and spread them >>around? > >Then he's trespassing on the turf of the Demons of Traditional Latin, >Gothic, and Frankish Drinking Songs... who are still very much around, >and in better shape 'cause they're drawing essence every day. Assuming there are any of the above. There are a *lot* of untaken Words. Of course, a lot of them no one would want.... >>>Technological advances, social changes, wars and extinction can render >>>some Words obsolete or completely nonexistent. What happens to the >>>celestial then? >> >>They weaken back to roughly what they'd have been without a Word, I >>think. Possibly even further in some cases. It's canon that >Word-bound >>Senschals typically die when their Tether goes. > >Okay, I could go with that... but do they then have a shot at a new >Word? Especially if they did well with their old one and were taken out >by circumstances beyond their control? This I don't know. It feels wrong to me, somehow. Demons would simply chalk it up to stupidity in getting stuck with the wrong Word, for whatever reason. If Lucifer grants changes, it's *not* going to be because he's being a nice guy. On the angelic side, I can see it being accepted as simply part of the Symphony, that some parts fade away with time -- it's simply God's will, just like dying in defense of something worthwhile. If actual soul-death doesn't happen, one can envision the Old Angels' Home, with all the old Word-bound reminiscing about the good old days, and hoping their Word might make a comeback one of these days. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:31:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? At 10:05 PM -0700 7/30/98, Doug Muir wrote: >Is it ever possible for a Word-bound celestial to lose his or her Word? >Or to change it to another one? Lucifer can strip a Word from a demon, and assign another one... I suspect the Seraphim Council *might* have the same power, but I don't think they've ever been known to use it. It would probably be very repellant to them, to even think of doing such a thing to someone else. Otherwise, Words are only lost via Falling or Redemption. >[...] what happens to the >Word-bound whose Words have simply ceased to exist? Like the Angel of >Passenger Pigeons, or the Demon of Traditional Etruscan Drinking Songs? >Technological advances, social changes, wars and extinction can render >some Words obsolete or completely nonexistent. What happens to the >celestial then? They die, or fade away into shadows of their former selves, unless they can find some way to make their Word mean more. (Overspecialization is death...) As for having a Word upgraded as a reward... While it *can* be done, many celestials won't *want* that. The Word is a part of them... Demons are more likely to be able to cope than angels, I'd think, though. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:27:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) At 1:24 PM +0300 7/31/98, Yossi Gurvitz wrote: >At 09:46 AM 7/31/98 , you wrote: >>I think alot of it has to do with free will of humans. >>If humans were guided into every possible decision than the whole point ( >>which is still being discovered) would be lost. It's better for a human to >>choose his destiny over fate reather than just being granted it. > Major question: can free will really be excercised without valid >information? If people choose to be good because they know that it'll get them into Heaven and being bad will send them to Hell -- not just believe, but *KNOW* this will happen -- then are they really choosing to be good? Or are they being bribed for goodness and punished for badness? It's very possibly the same thing that says "Bribe a demon to redemption, and you wind up with a dead demon." If a human doesn't choose goodness for the right reasons, is it really goodness? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 17:25 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? >>Actually, it would appear that Words allow of a certain amount of >>"linguistic drift." Thus Gabriel presides over the fires of >>inspiration and madness as well as literal fire, and Novalis >>presides over peace and mercy, which have no very real connection >>to flowers. > >Agreed. The Symphony isn't a lawyer, apparently, and allows some >definitions to be fuzzed. Nor are the translations into English really precise. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 17:38 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Investigation >I think background checks are common. Granted, 99% of them are >satisfied with a photo ID. Most people on this list have a job, and >I'd be surprised if anyone here goes through thorough background >checks. If most people are like here, about all they do is maybe check for criminal record, credit history, and driving record, plus check the work references by phone or email. And of course you have to have a Social Security Number for the IRS to take your pay. Beyond that, there's not much checking in corporate America, except maybe for those ever-popular drug testing programs that have come into vogue. On the other hand, I had a Secret clearance once. They do a bit more checking. And a *lot* of checking for the Top Secret ones. Also, with a clearance, your fingerprints wind up in the FBI's files, though I suppose that's not much of a problem for celestials, who can switch vessels at need. >Roles are not about fooling the feds, investigators, or the mob. >Roles are about establishing a niche in the Symphony for someone who >was never supposed to be there. Certainly a good role will cover >these things, but a celestial without a role might cover them as well. Exactly. >It's not about fooling the Symphony either, as I understand it. The >Symphony knows you don't belong there. However, you've arranged the >Symphony around you such that if you interact with it, it doesn't have >quite the same jarring action that a stranger would cause. You've >managed to find a loose thread in the Symphony and wrapped it around >you. Think of it as a celestial behaving so "in character", that the >lines between the celestial and his "character" begin to be less >obvious... Very good. Also, it's like the celestial is connected into other parts of the Symphony, such that treating him as outside it is almost as unnatural -- if he were suddenly subtracted, there would be ripples in the Symphony as well. So he's sort of patched into it -- if you pulled on the patching, it might hold, or it might rip off, but he's not actually woven into the main fabric. >Because of this, I now allow my players to obtain roles *if* they get >the character points *and* they play the roll they want to embrace >them. If they do a good job of staying "in character", then I'll let >them weave themselves slowly into the Symphony. This will however >take quite a bit of time and effort. Yes, this is similar to what I do. One character in my game (Elizabeth's Gray Lilim, actually) is slowly acquiring one. She started out hanging out in a women's shelter, helping out, and now also has a day job as a waitress (in an "angel bar", as she puts it, but that's a different story). She's also been given fake ID, in exchange for a favor or two. And she may shortly have a back paper trail, as a reward for some work she did recently. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:18:45 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? I would say that a word that no longer holds much power in the symphony is tough luck for that angel. He had his moments of strength on earth and now they're gone. They might be jaded or aloof or whatever, that's a personality thing. Remember, *there's a lot of place in heaven for angels that no longer play a role*. Think of 'em as war vets. Still around, still honored but not fighting the war anymore. I think the Angel of Disco has done well for himself though . . . or is that a demonic word? :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:47:55 -0700 From: Gryph Clarke Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? IMHO, a Word is not made of marble. Is it inflexible? It certainly can be, but it can morph, like the Piano Reel to 78s to 8 Tracks to Tapes to CDs change, because on some level, a Word is a concept. So the aforementioned angel couldn't morph from the Angel of CDs to the Angel of Potted Plants, but he could go to DVD or whatnot, because that's where the concept of Portable Music that Plays Itself is going. Rather like Novalis with Flowers to Plants, Peace, and Grateful Dead, it's the concept, and while the Word you name that concept by IS important, it shouldn't necessarily be the end-all, be-all. After all, the Symphony is always changing, so you need to change a bit with it. (And that way, you don't end up with a new, inexperienced Word-bound every time the concept changes. You've got an officeholder experienced with the concept that knows how to take care of it.) So, at least in my game, a Word is really a Concept, unless you get too specific. I'm sorry, I'm just not sure what Stale Bong Water could morph into. ;) I consider it like music itself...the melody changes a little, variants on it go throughout the entire song, but you can still say that you recognize it from the original. - - Gryph Doug Muir wrote: > >My own personal take on the situation is that you are in trouble if > your > >word dies. So don't apply for trivial words. > > Yeah, but it's possible to have Words that are nontrivial, vital even, > but *temporary* by their very nature. The Angel of the Roman Empire, > say, or the Demon of Cavalry Charges. The Demon of CDs is fairly > important right now, but in fifty years he's going to be drinking in the > same cruddy bar as the Angel of 8-tracks and the Demon of Betamax. > *Something* -- DVDs, panmagnetic type, telepathy, something -- is going > to make them quite obsolete within that time. > > Any Word that is either political or technological in nature is probably > doomed. And that covers quite a lot of ground. > > > I think the Seraphim council > >(or Lucifer) would allow trivial words just as an example to others. > > Oh, that's canon. It's clearly stated (somewhere) that Lucifer gives > out misery names. I think the Demons of Stale Bong Water and Pocket > Fluff were mentioned. > > >I'm not sure it's really kosher > >to change words, under these circumstances. It would be like having a > >heart transplant, while you were awake (unless you fall (are redeemed) > >which is painful enough as it is.) > > Well, I agree... it probably *is* really painful and unpleasant. But > sometimes it would be necessary, n'est ce pas? > > Doug M. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:20:55 -0700 From: "Akira" Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? > (Overspecialization is death...) I think that's " Overspecialization breeds in weakness" Ghost in the Shell. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 17:44 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #887 >>A clear demonstration >of the existence of demons would, of course, cause every rational >thinking person to immediately change their ways and follow the straight >and narrow path< > >Quickly followed by the American Government atempting an empirical >experiment to discover the radiation and blast tolerances of demons. And probably angels as well. But much less publicized.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Angels going to GenCon From a transcript by Gregarius, Malakite of Creation, to Tornado, Ofanite of War Tornado, bud! What's up! I'm heading over to GenCon in Milwalkee, WI! I hear from a lot of people that it's controlled by a group called Wizards of the Coast. I'm gonna check it out Just In Case, because I also hear that it's a convention for the Game! Well, actually, they said it's a Gaming Convention, but it sounds really suspicious, so I'm headed over there. Do ya know any other celestials that's gonna be there? Gregarius, Malakite of Creation (Heh heh heh...how's THAT for asking who's going to GenCon?) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:57:44 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? > So, at least in my game, a Word is really a Concept, unless you get too > specific. I'm sorry, I'm just not sure what Stale Bong Water could morph > into. ;) I consider it like music itself...the melody changes a little, > variants on it go throughout the entire song, but you can still say that you > recognize it from the original. It's can't morph. Don't you see? Stale Bong Water will be with us as long as there are those brave souls who grow their pot plants on the front porch and tell people it's really sage. Stale Bong Water will always have a place. :) Do you realize how powerful a demon that is? :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:48:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels going to GenCon At 3:22 PM -0700 7/31/98, Graveyard Greg wrote: >(Heh heh heh...how's THAT for asking who's going to GenCon?) Memo from: Beth, AA of Archives Re: Conventions "All right, the filing system is in place, so I can take a little vacation -- down to WorldCon in Baltimore. Don't tip over any bookshelves while I'm gone!" - ------------ To: ALL MY MINIONS From: BETH, PRINCESS OF NITPICKING Mess up my filing system and you die. It's *MINE* and don't think I won't know if you touch it. I'll be in Baltimore, checking out this Gaming track as a favor for my ally. DON'T TOUCH THAT IT'S *MINE*! The event is WorldCon. Don't bug me unless it's important. - ------------- - ---Beth (Oh, and Walter Milliken is also going to be at WorldCon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:38:20 -0500 From: The Bard Subject: Re: IN> Angels going to GenCon > I would love to go to GenCon if I could find a ride I live in north Texas > and would be willing to drive a little ways to meet up with someone who > could drive me the rest of the way I am also willing to split expensess ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 1998 12:58:54 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Singing Question >>>>> "JB" == Julian Breen writes: JB> One more question... The last time that I looked, the FAQ equated JB> magic with Songs. Is it feasible then that mortals and/or JB> celestials can learn Songs on their own, without JB> permission/instruction by a superior? (From manuscripts, etc?) I would think so, but on the other hand, my impression from the rulebooks is that mortals only learn Songs from Celestial or Ethereal spirits of some kind. Sorcerous skills can be learned from manuscripts, etc, and can then be used to coerce spirits into teaching you Songs. It makes a kind of sense...if Songs could be learned from texts without having dealings with spirits, Sorcery would be a lot less popular. It also makes mortals using magic in IN less like Gandalf and more like Prospero, which is a good thing genre-wise IMO. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:27:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Angels going to GenCon - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > Memo from: Beth, AA of Archives > Re: Conventions > > "All right, the filing system is in place, so I can take a little > vacation -- down to WorldCon in Baltimore. Don't tip over any > bookshelves while I'm gone!" > "...Hmmm....that book is WAY up there...if I climb the shelves, I should be able to..." CRASH! BREAK! "Oops, hope nobody saw that..." > ------------ > > To: ALL MY MINIONS > From: BETH, PRINCESS OF NITPICKING > > Mess up my filing system and you die. It's *MINE* and don't think > I won't know if you touch it. I'll be in Baltimore, checking out > this Gaming track as a favor for my ally. DON'T TOUCH THAT IT'S *MINE*! > The event is WorldCon. Don't bug me unless it's important. > "Hmmmmm, does I come before E except after C? Ah, the heck with it, I'll just put it here. Who cares?" Unknown celestial (Gregarius? Never heard of him) PS: Sorry, Beth, I couldn't resist! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:56:32 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? In a message dated 98-07-31 17:32:08 EDT, you write: > Threre are gajillions > >of extinct species... tens of thousands even if you restrict it to the > >famous or "important" ones. Their celestials can't *all* be pushing > >Discovery Channel specials on biodiversity. > > But the passenger pigeon is one, like the dodo, that is widely > recognized. I agree that many of the other extinct species probably > have bigger problems, though I'd claim that anyone Word-bound to a > popular dinosaur species is probably OK, if they hung on this long. > ...or this angel/demon of said extinct species could put a bug in Steven Spielberg's ear to make a multi-million dollar movie about it. The angel of T-rex's probably regained a little strength if only for a little while due to the popularity of Jurassic Park. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:05:38 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [much snippage] > As for having a Word upgraded as a reward... While it *can* be done, > many celestials won't *want* that. The Word is a part of them... Demons > are more likely to be able to cope than angels, I'd think, though. FURFUR ! sorry, had to be done ;) -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 02:06:25 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) At 17:27 31/07/98 -0400, you wrote: > >It's very possibly the same thing that says "Bribe a demon to >redemption, and you wind up with a dead demon." If a human doesn't choose >goodness for the right reasons, is it really goodness? > Ask the other people whose lives were changed because of the good that person did? jo - ---===--- "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." - --- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 02:09:24 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? At 17:21 31/07/98 EDT, you wrote: > If actual >soul-death doesn't happen, one can envision the Old Angels' Home, with >all the old Word-bound reminiscing about the good old days, and hoping >their Word might make a comeback one of these days. > *g* Stick it in the marches! Even if *sniff* there aren't any real passenger pigeons left for the angel to coo over (sic), it can still craft dreams about them... jo - ---===--- "Some people leave money for the improvement of public buildings. I can leave dynamite for the improvement of public buildings." - --- G. K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 13:26:07 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> Multiple Roles? G'day. Just reading through the recent threads on Roles gave me a headache, but I imagine that people running ongoing IN games have to contend with these things. What I'm wondering about is whether people think that a character could have multiple Roles (never mind how they're established). Would a character be able to use two seperate identities? What is they had two different Vessels to swap between, one per Role? And what's with Seraphim & Roles? I mean, it's obvious you get into trouble without a Role (and the Seraph in my last game played this up wonderfully), but is claiming a Role a lie? It's implied that it isn't, since only servitors of Litheroy are banned from having one - but the Litheroy writeup says that Roles are a lie! I'm of the opinion that Seraphim should be able to use Roles as effectively as other PCs, otherwise they lose some of the general fun, but what do others think? (Why this point? Discussions with a friend who's considering running a Batman/WoD game has me thinking along those lines. I wrote some notes about Batman/IN material way _way_ back for the list, and I'm wondering about the intricacies of "Secret IDs" in IN now. I've got gaming on the brain, and it's all getting muddled up...) - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:18:11 -0500 From: The Bard Subject: IN> HELLO ANY BODY HOME Did anyone get my story The poker game. No one has wrote me to say it sucks. but I think that silence is worse. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:52:06 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> IN- Lost Words? >I would say that a word that no longer holds much power in the symphony is >tough luck for that angel. He had his moments of strength on earth and now >they're gone. They might be jaded or aloof or whatever, that's a >personality thing. Remember, *there's a lot of place in heaven for angels >that no longer play a role*. Think of 'em as war vets. Still around, >still honored but not fighting the war anymore. Hmm. Is there really that much use in Heaven for those who serve no function any more? I don't mean actively soldiering... as someone pointed out recently, there are lots of non-combat jobs looking for angels. But it seems awfully wasteful and inefficient to have "retired" angels just hanging around taking up space. I should think they'd be encouraged to find something useful to do... Someone pointed out that some Words may have more "give" than we realize because the true Word is in the celestial tongue. Very good point! Hmm... let's see... Dyspol, a Shedite, is the Demon of the Know-Nothing Party. You say you don't know his Word? Step aside, foolish mortal; Dyspol is a Duke and reports directly to Malphas. But _wait_ (says some nitpicker), I looked up the Know-Nothing Party in my old U.S. history textbook... and they were a short-lived minor political party in the USA right around the middle of the last century. They gained strength in the late 1840s as "native" Americans became alarmed by the rising tide of immigrants, especially Irish fleeing the Great Famine; they proposed a closed-door policy and discrimination against immigrants and other inferior breeds. Elected a few Congressmen, but then got broken up after 1856 as the country turned away from these issues to grapple with slavery and sectionalism. Some members drifted into the new Republican party, some others surfaced in the Klan after the Civil War, but all in alll the KNP was only around for a decade or so. So (quoth the nitpicker), your Duke must have had a brief period of glory, followed by a long stretch on the infernal equivalent of the welfare line... But (I reply), what you don't know is that the Word "Know-Nothing Party" is only a vague translation from the Celestial. A better translation would be "Party of Hysterical Nativist Hate-Mongering in a Society That Really Should Be Advanced Enough To Know Better". In either celestial tongue, this is a single chord (in a minor key). Dyspol has a *big* job. At various times, he has taken some very prominent folks indeed as his hosts... the names Hanford, Le Pen, and Buchanan all fairly leap to mind. And, alas, his Word seems to be doing just fine. So probably quite a few of the Words in canon are rough translations. Novalis might be the AA of "Exuberant and Beautiful Overflowing of Peaceful Life". Which could be translated as "flowers" without too great a stretch, but would lead more easily to Dead concerts and pacifism and whatnot. Doug M. dougmuir@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 01:29:59 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? Adam Canning wrote: > IIRC In RL there is a town called Hell in the Grand Cayman Islands. Actually, Hell is a town in SW Michigan. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 01:44:41 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> IN- Lost Words? SienarFLT@aol.com wrote: > ...or this angel/demon of said extinct species could put a bug in Steven > Spielberg's ear to make a multi-million dollar movie about it. The angel of > T-rex's probably regained a little strength if only for a little while due to > the popularity of Jurassic Park. Yeah, but the Angel of Raptors is probably a little bit peeved, since no one seems to remember that he was talking about BIRDS, not these silly lwo legged lizards. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:36:59 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> IN- Why not spread the Word (was RE: Roles and what to do...) Yossi Gurvitz wrote: > Major question: can free will really be excercised without valid >information? If people are raised to the belief that angels and demons are >just fairy tales, naturally they won't contemplate "doing the good thing"; I do not agree with this. I know plenty of people IRL who are athiests or agnostics who are decent, moral beings. *Good* people, who do not have to have a belief in the afterlife in order to be so. Naturally, I carry this over to the game world also. I do accept that celestials revealing their true natures is likely to have a great effect on mundanes though. Im my game, a mercurian doing so managed to have a hardened criminal redeem himself for an appointment with Destiny. However, I think that such cases are dependent upon many things, not just the character of the mundane. The appearence of the celestial, for one thing. Imagine seeing a seraph or a malakite... Unless the GM rules that the mundane is filled 'with the Glory of God' at the sight of such a being, who knows *what* the reaction might be? - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:58:01 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? >>My initial reaction was "no". But... in that case, what happens to the >>Word-bound whose Words have simply ceased to exist? > >They weaken greatly, possibly even die. > Or, the celestial in question spends less time in the corporeal plane and may even be recalled to Heaven/Hell permanently. It's nothing more than 'retirement'. In Heaven he will be embraced for the important and neccessary part that he once played within the Symphony. In Hell, aside from being ridiculed, unless he has the favour of his Prince and can prove that he will be useful in another way (or the Prince thinks that there may be some kind of revival for his Word), then he's probably going to get familiar with Hell's euthanasia policies. - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:40:52 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> IN- Roles Eeyore wrote: >Doug Muir wrote: > >> Hey, I kinda like this one. >> >> Note that if the death is inconspicuous (a quiet heart attack, or >> suchlike), the celestial might simply move in and take over without >> anyone being the wiser. >> >> There are complications, of course. Is the celestial taking over the >> vacated body, or disposing of it and whipping up a new one? And how >> much does he know about the deceased? >> >> Hmm... he'd be able to get a debriefing from the soul of the late >> departed... *if* that person was heading for the appropriate >> destination... hmm. > >I had imagined that you have to create a vessel to impersonate the person >in question. I don't think that taking over a corpse would be at all >canon, particularly given the attunement of Shedim of Death. Part of the >answers to these questions depends upon how fast a deceased soul arrives at >its final destination. With enough speed, some of the cases could be >started after the person has died; say, in the case of a missing hiker who >dies but no one finds the body immediately. Again, this all is probably >easier for those who are willing to select a target and off him/her >themselves; you can get a lot of the planning done ahead of time. Celestials may occupy the body at the moment of death, so they are not actually taking over a corpse. Not really. As John Doe crashes into the river and is trapped in his car, and everything starts to turn black... he suddenly finds a new lease of life, escapes the wreck and re-emerges into the world. Voila, the angel/demon has a new vessel with accompanying role. The brief that he gets may be variable depending upon who is Superior is and/or the deceased's importance to the Symphony. Some AAs or DPs may simply say, 'I have an opening for you...Right now!'. There are, conveniently, many amnesia cases amongst those who survive near-death situations. - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:51:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Roles and what happens if you get caught without one? > > IIRC In RL there is a town called Hell in the Grand Cayman Islands. > > Actually, Hell is a town in SW Michigan. And there's a bar and a party store there! Not ah... erm.... heck of alot else, mind you. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:42:11 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Musings on Magog Having just read that the Final Trumpet has gone to print it started me thinking about Magog's imprisonment within Egypt. This led me of course to the work of Graham Hancock. A chamber, and passageways some 25 feet down beneath the paws of the Sphinx..? And what is the sphinx but a carving of a guardian cherub? This makes me wonder if there is a Superior pulling Mr. Hancock's strings in the game? Maybe he's being influenced by a servant of Revelations in service to War, or Stone? ;) Maybe this is the reason that the Egyptian authorities won't give permission to excavate the area? Perhaps they _know_ something... - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:02:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> HELLO ANY BODY HOME - ---The Bard wrote: > > > > Did anyone get my story The poker game. No one has wrote me to say it sucks. > but I think that silence is worse. > > > It happens, Bard. I sent an NPC that never recieved feedback. Or maybe it, too, never got through the system. By the way, I liked yer story. ;) Graveyard Greg, guilty as Hell _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:25:37 -0700 From: "Epitaph" Subject: IN> Free will and attendant evils I know that this claim is contentious in strict theological discussions, but let us assume for the moment that free will is among the many characteristics with which humanity has been imbued by God. This is obviously not necessarily the case (especially if you regard reality from a deterministic viewpoint), but for the purposes of the game, the inclusion of some modicum of mortal empowerment would seem to lend purpose to an otherwise mechanistic apparatus. Consider, if you will, that if humanity was entirely bereft of personal initiative, that if all events were, in fact, foreordained by God at the moment of creation, then there would be little point to the game. This would almost certainly reduce, if not negate, the power and immediacy of the most prevalent theme of the game (not to mention of theology in general): the struggle between good and evil. If everything is ordained by God, then Lucifer's betrayal is not a betrayal at all, merely an act in accordance with the grand design. Granted, this is not an entirely foreign concept in Western religion, wherein Satan's role as adversary may be regarded as nothing more than a foil against which one may define God and all of the qualities that He is a proponent of. Despite this, absolute determinism would serve little purpose in the game itself. The prospect of acting as a cog in someone else's machine, without even the possibility of deciding for yourself when you will turn, holds very little joy for me (and I can only assume that others will be able to withstand the magnetic attraction of this enticingly quaint notion). Rather, a role which involves personal efficacy is far more appealing. Therefore, let us agree that free will is an integral element to In Nomine. Free will is not an isolated concept, however. Necessary to it is the possession and application of reason. Without the ability (even at the most basic of levels) to perceive various courses of action and discern the most advantageous of them, there can be no free will. After all, the basis of free will is will, which in turn requires the power of conscious and deliberate action. So reason is integral to free will. This said then, it follows that reason is integral to In Nomine. This being the case, one cannot help but wonder why some individuals fail to apply it so regularly, preferring to cling tenaciously to the letter but not the spirit of a set of rules which were designed to serve as general guidelines and not immutable doctrine. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #890 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.