From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 4 20:03:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15383 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:03:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA25837 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:05:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:05:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199808050105.UAA25837@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #898 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, August 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 898 In this digest: Re: IN> Bluffing Seraphim Re: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) Re: IN> How to Document Existence IN> Shedim Problem Re: IN> Greg's Shedim problem Re: IN> How to Document Existence Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements Re: IN> ADMIN [Security alert] Re: IN> Greg's Shedim problem IN> Lilim/Lilith stuff Spy in the Infernal Legions (was Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is...) Re: IN> Lost Words? Re: IN> Bluffing Seraphim Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... RE: IN> IN Admin: Danger Will Robinson, danger! RE: IN> Greg's Shedim problem RE: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) RE: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:25:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bluffing Seraphim At 3:55 AM -0400 8/4/98, David Edelstein wrote: >Oooh, another debate over Seraphim. These are always fun. >;) > >>>>The Seraph can say "Stop or I'll shoot" without meaning that the Seraph >will shoot the friend. If, immediately after the friend doesn't stop, the >Seraph shoots something else, I wouldn't inflict dissonance.<<< > >I would. The Seraph is playing sea-lawyer, using semantic games to >misrepresent What about a Seraph (a Windy, if necessary) who says, "STOP! Don't make me shoot!" It's misdirection, but it's not chopping logic of the "If P then Q" style.* >One thing that should make Seraphim a little scary is that they _don't_ >bluff.... I like Seraphim... * (The reverse of P -> Q is *not* ~P -> ~Q ("if not-P, then not-Q"). The reverse of P -> Q is ~Q -> ~P. If I recall my logic classes correctly.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:11:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) At 2:58 PM -0400 8/4/98, Gregory Littmann wrote: >> >> So, what else do you want to know about them? > prizewinning Inner Shedite> >> > How to present them with any challenge whatsoever. The Shedite P.C.s in >my game are taking over whoever they want, doing whatever they wish, and >then vanishing again at the slightest hint of repurcussion. Angels are the number one danger to a Shedite who can't ooze quickly. They have to go celestial for every other kind of takeover (all 7+ Forces of them, going WHONG in the Symphony). Worse -- get the Shedite into a Soldier of God who manages to come under suspicion by the local triad, and the Cherub attunes . . . to the Shedite! Now, a Cherub of Judgment doesn't have to worry about damage to his attuned if that attuned is being investigated... Stick him with a Djinn, or a Song of Attraction, for a lesser threat. Force-catchers make Kyrios unhappy, and will probably do the same to Shedim. Make sure they're big enough to hold the whole Shedite. Nail him hard with the first Divine Intervention he gets, or one of his hosts gets... Remember that if he breaks anything while he's in the host, there will be noise. Celestials or Soldiers may notice and wonder why their friend just created that disturbance in the Symphony. Present them with the occasional 1/1/3, Will 8 Perception 3 human. Present them with that human, with a *strong ethical code*, just full of Essence to resist the Shedite even if it *does* get in. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:34:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> How to Document Existence SMALL FEAST OF BLADES SPOILERS! At 9:17 AM -0500 8/4/98, Eeyore wrote: >Jayson Howell wrote: [...] >Ah, yes. But do you collect a paycheck as a member of a big city police >force? Eileth, from Feast of Blades, does. You may recall that she went >Renegade a little less than a year ago, and set up the Role as Amanda Kale >just prior to that. It is only a Role/2,[...] Well, >I suppose that if you have a lot of friends forging the paperwork and >providing references, it might happen, but this is a Renegade. Of *Secrets*. That Geas-blackmail trick of hers is EVIL! (Okay, so she got my PC with it and stuck her in Geas-conflict with Jean. Do I sound bitter?) Anyway, if you come in from another city, and you've bound enough of the background people *there*... (Or find out who's doing the check and blackmail *them*...) Or maybe the secret is that Eileth offed the real Amanda Kayle, Policewoman and stepped into her life. Whether that's the *main* way of Role creation or not, it's certainly *a* method... (Which may be why it's only a Role/2 -- the Symphony hasn't quite accepted that Eileth *is* Amanda yet...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 14:04:44 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Shedim Problem >Vanishing how, to where? > >The usual constraint on extravagant celestial antics is Disturbance; this >presumes, of course, that somebody who cares is within perception range. Yeah. So, sic some Malakim on them. Or -- better yet, give them some rival demons to deal with. I do believe a Djinn should be able to track a Shedite no matter where the beast goes (IIRC, this is why Shedites can't stand the Djinn). If your PCs are used to dancing away from trouble, the sight of the damn damned Djinn popping up again and again and *again* should put a crimp in their fun. Alternately, give 'em some powerful opponent with some sort of artifact that acts as a tracking device. There must be at least some of these around. You can make the foes that you toss them are tough enough to give them real trouble. Orrr... you can make them not so tough, but let there be good reasons for _not_ sticking around to fight them: we kill this Malakite, there'll be eight more flapping around here tomorrow. Or, we kill him, we're violating the rules of the local truce a la Austin (but nobody has told the Malakite about the truce, and _he_ doesn't feel bound...). Or -- this Djinn is a _really_ favored servitor of [particularly scary Prince who the PCs don't want to mess with]. We kill the Djinn, and [scary Prince] is going to make our lives... uh, Hell. More, I mean. Hmm... it seems that the Djinn isn't really mad at _all_ the PCs... he's only got a grudge against Joe, the rest of us are just in the way. Hmm... I bet ol' Joe can deal with that bad boy on his own... Set the players at each others' throats. This is almost always easy to do, and is one of the best (and most amusing) ways to deal with overpowered PCs. Force them through a narrow door. Give them a job they _must_ do, and make it difficult: they have to corrupt _this_ politician, and he has a will of 10 and no vices. Give them something they simply have to protect. Then threaten it. This has the added benefit of pinning them down. Since they're Shedites, the object of protection could be a host! Yes, they're allowed to harm their hosts or let them die, but suppose they are told to get inside this person _and take care of him_, on pain of Princely displeasure? Give them tasks that are going to produce a mess of Disturbance in the Symphony. Then give them some real compelling reason to keep quiet. "Okay, your job is to kill or corrupt these three people who live in Laramie, Wyoming. They're Soldiers, and fairly tough, so you'll probably have to kill at least one of them, and you may have to use Songs and whatnot. Whatever you do, make it messy, because we want to make examples of these guys. -- Oh, by the way, there's a major Tether of Laurence just outside of town... we don't know much about it, but you can expect there to be plenty of Sword Angels hanging around town. Think of it as an opportunity... you'll get bonus points for bringing back information about the Tether, you know." Remember, the Princes are the GM's best friend. They let you give the PCs orders that are difficult, arbitrary, and even suicidal... and which simply _must_ be obeyed! Better yet, you (the GM) don't even have to explain yourself... all you (the Prince) have to do is raise your eyebrows and say, "Are you... questioning... my judgment?" Give 'em rivals. Give 'em rivals _of their own kind_, who are a little smarter and more powerful. The first time a PC moves into a body, only to find that a rival Shedite Servitor of Kobal has left a fizzing stick of dynamite inside said body's Jansport pack, well, you may find a sudden shift away from the "Shedites are fun!" POV. You can have the rivals work for an enemy Prince. Or, if you want to be an utter bastard, have them work for the same Prince. They are, after all, _rivals_. And, of course, you can always have the PCs have a little too much fun and tread on someone else's toes. In its simplest form, you just have some powerful NPC get annoyed at the PCs' success in something: "You killed [fill in the blank]? I've hated him since [whenever]! Nobody but ME should have killed [fill in the blank]!! Or, "That hospital you just trashed? It was the private preserve of the demon Gemiah. He had some sort of long-term project going down in the pediatric ward, and you've just put fifteen years of his work in jeapordy." "Gosh, we're sorry. We just got a little too excited." "Well, Gemiah is a Habbalite Duke of Fate, and he's going to show you what excitement really means..." Cheers, Doug M. dougmuir@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:43:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Greg's Shedim problem At 1:22 PM -0700 8/4/98, Robert Knop wrote: >Relevant question for Elizabeth or some such: Shedim are supposed to >corrupt their hosts at least once a day. Suppose a Shedite hops into a >host, and leaves it minutes later without corrupting it. Less than a day >has elapsed: does the Shedite get a note of dissonance or not? I'd give him 24 hours to corrupt *someone*, unless I was getting really annoyed by Shedim on a regular basis, in which case it would turn into house rules of "corrupt your host at least once before you leave it, if you stay less than a day". - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:31:44 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> How to Document Existence Walter Milliken wrote: > A Renegade *Lilim* -- all she needed to do was call in a few favors, or > do a few for the right people. As a Lilim of Secrets, she also has that > nifty blackmail capability.... I was playing Devil's Advocate, and so so didn't mention the Lilim bit to present the strongest case. (That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Go away, Mr. Seraph. No resonating on me.) Actually, the more I thought about Jayson's idea, the better I liked it. The only real problem with it I have left is, if a Role (as opposed to a role) has only the function of hiding from the Symphony, I think it's a little pricey in terms of character points. Particularly since it's a not always effective disguise. Other then that, this probably is the way to go. I still like the idea that others are involved in setting up a role (like the reliever, or using a newly dead soul), but having to work to get the paperwork in place is a good idea. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:33:56 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... Jayson Howell wrote: > There *was* an Archangel of Love. His name was Andrealphus. Three > guesses as to why he's not around in Heaven anymore. (IPG p.12) > > Currently, there doesn't seem to be anyone who's taken the post in > Andre's wake. Not to get started again, but I can't figure out WHY this word hasn't been re-filled. It seems like an awfully big omission to me. The same holds for the Word of Humour. Heaven seems to be conceding an awful lot of powerful ground to the infernals for no particularly good reason. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:29:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... - ---Jayson Howell wrote: > > There *was* an Archangel of Love. His name was Andrealphus. Three > guesses as to why he's not around in Heaven anymore. (IPG p.12) Hee hee hee...Yeah, I took it for granted that everyone else would know that fact. :) Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:31:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Enhanced Gabrielite Attunements On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > Cherubim > > -------- > > > Hmm...the problem with this is that it allows them to fulfill their > dissonance conditions automatically, with hardly any effort. True, which is why I prefer Hitherby's version. > > Elohim > > ------ > For some reason, I hear the word Habbalah. You're not the only one. > No. Never. The word munchie is inadequate to describe this power. This > attunement causes far too much damage, much more than the Calabim of Lust > attunement, which at least is resistible and can't strip Forces. Again, I stress this was prerelease stuff. > > Kyriotates serving Gabriel can manifest thermal energy -- hot, flickering > > flames which only consume what the angel wishes to burn. > > > Thus making the True Shape of Flame attunement useless. Drawing a blank here...I know it's in expanded writeup, but I don't have the book with me, so I can't really comment. I do know it nicely mirrors Belial's Shedite attunement. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 17:32 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> ADMIN [Security alert] >Okay, here's what seems to be a real, honest to goodness, Warn Everybody >About A Virus alert. (Or maybe it's About A Trojan. Discussions of this >off-list, please.) > >If you're using Netscape Communicator to read Email, then you can get >more data over at Netscape's homepage. (You may want to poke around >Internet Explorer's homepage too, since I have heard that there is >a problem with them, too, which is similar.) I believe the Microsoft problem is in Outlook Express (their mail product), but I'm not sure. Explorer may also have problems. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 17:36 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Greg's Shedim problem >Relevant question for Elizabeth or some such: Shedim are supposed to >corrupt their hosts at least once a day. Suppose a Shedite hops into a >host, and leaves it minutes later without corrupting it. Less than a day >has elapsed: does the Shedite get a note of dissonance or not? I read that as, "they have to corrupt someone at least once a day" (with some exceptions like Game and Death Shedim). Thus, they don't *have* to corrupt every host they enter, though they probably will try it, just on general principles, and for their own enjoyment. I think Elizabeth may see this one the other way, though. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 17:44 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Lilim/Lilith stuff [Jo:] >>She's a Lilim, and a fairly powerful one (as I recall, she's got a >>first- or second-level distinction) -- it's to be expected that she's >>got her own support network of favors owed. > >What I'm not sure about is whether this would stop any of the people who >helped her by (illegally) forging documents from blackmailing _her_ >afterwards. (Unless she has high enough geases on them to make sure that >they never tell anyone). This is actually a more general Geas problem -- when you force someone to do something with a Geas, what keeps them from turning around immediately afterward and trying to thwart whatever it is you're up to? I think the answer is, "nothing". For the specific case of Lilim of Secrets, one would presume that the original blackmail would be sufficient to hold the Geasee quiet, though not necessarily allow you to ask for anything more from them. Otherwise they'd have simply owned up to the blackmail situation up front, and negated the Geas. More generally, this isn't so clear an issue. In many cases, the return favor itself will be something the Geasee will not want widely known. But there's nothing that really enforces this, that I know of. In some cases, you can include "and keep quiet about what you did for me for " as part of the Geas. But that can only be done for a limited duration. I believe I've actually done this in my game with NPCs (using Eileth, in fact). >I assume lilim/ Lilith will need special treatment in the tethers book too, >if only to explain how a demon prince who has no principality and no >permanent servitors can have tethers or seneschals at all. I agree that the >special treatment gets a bit tiring. Equal rites for other bands! :) Yes, I think there will be some stuff there. She can have Seneschals, but not Word-bound ones. (The Tether canon has two forms, one of which is just an attunement, which Lilith could probably give out without trouble.) In our game (which isn't necessarily canon), she has a few Tethers which terminate in the Guildhall, which is as close as she comes to having a Principality. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:56:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Spy in the Infernal Legions (was Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is...) - ---Eeyore wrote: > Not to get started again, but I can't figure out WHY this word hasn't been > re-filled. It seems like an awfully big omission to me. The same holds > for the Word of Humour. Heaven seems to be conceding an awful lot of > powerful ground to the infernals for no particularly good reason. > > J. Michael Neal > > That's because Kobal hasn't Fallen, he's setting Hell up for the ultimate joke. :) Just another zany opinion. Like Dominic being a Balseraph. Which isn't true--right? Right? Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 18:03 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lost Words? >>Lightning* > >Canon; granted. But, again, there are lots of subordinate Words that >won't be so tenacious... Vacuum Tubes, for instance, and Fission Power. Actually both Vacuum Tubes and Fission Power would be in pretty good shape, despite what one might think. The first includes CRTs and a lot of high-power amplifier applications that still use tubes. And fission power is still fairly widespread; not to mention the fact that fission heating is fairly important in the Earth's heat balance and crustal dynamics. Besides, the words might actually be "Amplifiers" and "Fission", which include a lot more things. (Note that the Calabite in Night Music is the "Demon of Amps", and demons are more likely to have specific Words than angels.) >>Steam >>Powered Vehicles >>Flying Vehicles >>Cloth > >More technological Words... and, once again, these are exceptions; all >have closely associated Words that are fading or altogether gone (steam >trains, steam boats, steam-powered mills, steam heat, coal-powered >vehicles, steam-powered vehicles, etc., etc.). Some of those are still quite alive -- steam is still a good medium for heat exchange in a lot of heat engines. >Note that all of these are (in the celestial scheme of things) _young_ >words. Which means that they may not even have been given out yet -- I would doubt that the Seraphim Council is the sort of body that moves quickly, at least. For the more ephemeral Words, they may never get around to giving them out before they fade away again. > The first three are only from the last century or two, and >Cloth only dates back to the late Stone Age. The constant creation of >new Words strongly suggests (to me, at least) that celestials must at >least occasionally be cutting loose from old ones. No, it could equally imply that many of these Words are simply untaken, as of yet. Or that the celestial population is growing enough to supply candidates. (I don't necessarily support the latter notion, but it's possible.) >Looking at your list, it occurs to me that most of these things are >pretty big words... Freedom, Justice, Communication. Some would be >suitable for Archangels; most would require a fairly powerful celestial. >But I think it gets trickier as we descend from the broad Word to >subordinate Words... particular _kinds_ of boats or powered vehicle. >The more specific, the more likely the Word is to be temporary. And the more likely they probably wouldn't be given out, for exactly that reason. There's nothing that says that all Words *must* be filled for them to exist. >Almost every _specific_ technology. "Networks" may have staying power, >but "Ethernet" is on its way out. Not any time soon, though eventually, probably, yes. > "Weapons", yes; "Catapults", no. Catapults may see a comeback, see "mass driver".... Which isn't to say there aren't many "transient" Words. But the more obvious cases probably wouldn't be granted, unless there was a good reason (or a good whim, in Lucifer's case). On the other hand, I can see a selfless angel taking a transient Word they thought *needed* to be championed, even knowing that it was destined to fade away after its purpose was served. And the Council would likely be swayed by such arguments. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:05:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Bluffing Seraphim On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [...] > * (The reverse of P -> Q is *not* ~P -> ~Q ("if not-P, then not-Q"). > The reverse of P -> Q is ~Q -> ~P. If I recall my logic classes > correctly.) Hm, I thought the author of this bit held the Word of Nitpicking? The expression (~Q -> ~P) is the contrapositive of (P->Q), in formal terminology. An expression and its contrapositive can be deduced from each other, and have exactly the same meaning. (~P->~Q), on the other hand, is the converse of (P->Q); there is no necessary logical relationship between a statement and its converse, but one of the favorite *fallacies* of commonsense thought is to assume that a statement implies the converse. I know of no permutation of the terms in an implication that is called the "reverse" of the original statement. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:27:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... At 4:33 PM -0500 8/4/98, Eeyore wrote: >Not to get started again, but I can't figure out WHY this word hasn't been >re-filled. It seems like an awfully big omission to me. The same holds >for the Word of Humour. Heaven seems to be conceding an awful lot of >powerful ground to the infernals for no particularly good reason. There are several reasons. #1: It's like leaving the light on for the runaway coming home. (Hey, look, your old room is still there.) #2: The Word's former owner FELL. The second angel of Fortitude is a Malakite... #3: Princes tend to get snitty at angels who hold their Words, and go out of their way to use them for playthings. #4: Sometimes a Word's scope has been absorbed enough by other Words that it's not necessary. (Love is gone, but Flowers incorporates some aspects and promotes those, while Creation promotes others.) #5: Sometimes the Right Angel For The Job just hasn't shown up yet. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:00:06 -0400 From: ixDragons Subject: RE: IN> IN Admin: Danger Will Robinson, danger! - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBFD5.0BE777A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He he he... Good luck I've been trying to get off this list for a long = time. Now I get the digest as well as the list! I've even tried being a pain in the = bandwith and all I get are equally childish remarks (or please turn of that Microsoft product = gobbelygook that comes with your messages) :=DE - -----Original Message----- From: Jesse L. Rooney [SMTP:jrooney@zoo.uvm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 12:21 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> IN Admin: Danger Will Robinson, danger! HELP! Somebody disconnect me from the list! Major Domo will not let me get off! My email addresses are: jrooney@zoo.uvm.edu or jrooney@moose.uvm.edu or jrooney@gnu.uvm.edu (it is just one account but different email progarms send it different ways.)=20 Please take me off, I have more important things to do than download = mail for 5 minutues and delete everything. 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Suppose a Shedite hops into a host, and leaves it minutes later without corrupting it. Less than a day has elapsed: does the Shedite get a note of dissonance or not? - -Rob - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBFD5.08E4E600 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjUWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABkA AABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAgH3XwEAAABPAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A 3QEPVAIAAAAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMuaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMu aW8uY29tAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAtljAQSAAQAeAAAAUkU6IElO PiBHcmVnJ3MgU2hlZGltIHByb2JsZW0AkAkBBYADAA4AAADOBwgABAARAB8AAwACABYBASCAAwAO AAAAzgcIAAQAEQAeAAIAAgAUAQEJgAEAIQAAADE4NDRFMzk3QkUyQkQyMTFBODVFNDQ0NTUzNTQw MDAwAOEGAQOQBgDEBQAAIQAAAAsAAgABAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAuAAAA AAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBAIlEu77+9AR4AcAABAAAAHgAAAFJFOiBJTj4gR3JlZydzIFNoZWRpbSBw cm9ibGVtAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb2/7y5Hl+NEGSu+EdKoXkRFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAA U01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABkAAABpeGRyYWdvbnNAbWluZHNwcmluZy5jb20AAAAAAwAGEA+w/iYD AAcQtQEAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAElXT1VMRFNBWVRIQVRCQVJSSU5HQU5FTlRJUkVEQVlUSEVTSEVE SVRFTkVFRENPUlJVUFRCRUZPUkVMRUFWSU5HLS0tLS1PUklHSU5BTE1FU1NBR0UtLS0tLUZST006 Uk9CRVIAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACcAgAAmAIAAJUDAABMWkZ1P0HtY3cACgEDAfcgAqQD4wIAY4JoCsBz ZXQwIAcThwKDAFAO9nBycTIP9iZ9CoAIyCA7CW8yNWY1AoAKgXVjAFALA2MDAEELYG5nMTAzMyEL piBJIHcIYGxkwCBzYXkgdA+ABUBuYgrABRAVcCADkQnwdLJpCXAgZBbzGHBTGODoZGl0GHBuCeAW wAWhdHJ1BTFiARAFsBhwbOhlYXYXsS4KogqECoThCzBsaTM2AUAVEAFAJRFAbxlgY3QQhDE21CAt HhJPBRBnC4AHQOcF0AeQFuBnZR4TG1YdJAcc8QsTHSZpLTE0NOMBQBxwMTgwAUAM0CGzqGIgRgNh OgyDYg/gBwgAGmAAICBLbm9wACBbU01UUDpySmskUUAFAGwuBaBtvl0bVSLgBmACMCNHVApQCnMY kSwP8HVndXMJBUAwNCegMTk5OJAgNDoyEXBQTSXXrFRvI0cLgF8kUG0LgBkfUGxAHHAoAHMuacZv JYIl2HViah1RI0iEZToWUE4+IEcJcMxnJwZBGSJtIB0RAmD+ZSvmIC8dQxx0C7YbYy2A7RrQdgBw BUBxJ0EYQAIg0iAagSBFHHB6AaAPwLRoIAWxcwNwGHBzFIAeaC2gLnUKwDSycHBv8w+wFsB0bxtU GeYY0RhQ/CBoNiArYBfgBUAa0SgBlQIgYxhwYRiCLiAsce82AzkBGRY30HAEIAuANnD/F+AbVDfS J6AAcBbAGtIHkfUZUCAqwXUZYAQgC2AZYP8FwAPwFyAIYAVAGeUXshlQ/TlhTB8BFxIDoDkTO2U4 gJ8YEAtgOtAJgC2gZG8HkT8Y2h9ABUA5ECRQGWFvZn8YgAQBAiAAcDjhBbFC8T+7CuMbli0j0RtU EgEARkADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAwCAEP////9AAAcwAFw1Cu+/vQFAAAgwAFw1Cu+/vQELAACA CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAA AAAAAwAFgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAALcNAAAeACWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA4LjAAAwAmgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAALAC+ACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAMIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAA AwAygAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAEGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2 hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBCgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4A Q4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAA AAMADTT9NwAA7Do= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBFD5.08E4E600-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:29:26 -0400 From: ixDragons Subject: RE: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBFD5.05E25460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What happens to an Angel possessed by a Shedite? Does he eventually Fall? P.S. Don't give me that "A Shedite can't posses an Angel, their to powerful" line PCs start with the same amount of Forces Angels are no more powerful than Demons. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBFD5.05E25460 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjAWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABkA AABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAgH3XwEAAABPAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A 3QEPVAIAAAAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMuaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMu aW8uY29tAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAtljAQSAAQA1AAAAUkU6IElO PiBTaGVkaW0gUHJvYmxlbSAoUmU6IFdoeSBub3Qgc3ByZWFkIHRoZSBXb3JkKQAYEQEFgAMADgAA AM4HCAAEABEAHQAaAAIAKwEBIIADAA4AAADOBwgABAARABoAEgACACABAQmAAQAhAAAAMTQ0NEUz OTdCRTJCRDIxMUE4NUU0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA3QYBA5AGAIAEAAAhAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAA AAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AGB2svTuv70BHgBwAAEAAAA1AAAA UkU6IElOPiBTaGVkaW0gUHJvYmxlbSAoUmU6IFdoeSBub3Qgc3ByZWFkIHRoZSBXb3JkKQAAAAAC AXEAAQAAABYAAAABvb/u9ImX40QVK74R0qheREVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4A HwwBAAAAGQAAAGl4ZHJhZ29uc0BtaW5kc3ByaW5nLmNvbQAAAAADAAYQj7YPWAMABxC+AAAAHgAI EAEAAABlAAAAV0hBVEhBUFBFTlNUT0FOQU5HRUxQT1NTRVNTRURCWUFTSEVESVRFP0RPRVNIRUVW RU5UVUFMTFlGQUxMP1BTRE9OVEdJVkVNRVRIQVQiQVNIRURJVEVDQU5UUE9TU0VTQU5BTgAAAAAC AQkQAQAAAD4BAAA6AQAAlQEAAExaRnX4ruVmAwAKAHJjcGcxMjUWMgD4C2BuDhAwMzOdAfcgAqQD 4wIAY2gKwGBzZXQwIAcTAoB9swqACMggOwlvDjA1AoDZCoF1YwBQCwNjAEELtZwgVxEABUARAHBw CfBRBCB0byADkUEPIGU5AyBwbwQQB5ARMGQgLGJ5FrAGAGgJgGl0wGU/ICBEbweRGFBIIGV2CfB0 dQdAbHUYAEYZwT8KogqECoBQSC5TLhjRbicFQGc6aRlwIAeAFoAV0iJBeRg2IGMAcBuhF1QWtyy5 HEFlaQXAFpEXUHcEkEBmdWwiIGwLgGW1GsVDBCBzAZAAICAD8PccUB6yIMBhHCEh0AhgAjDYIG9m GgAFsGMHkRbz8x4BCXAgbhagBGAjoR9WsxxCA6BEZQRgAIAuGmQFEfEAJkAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAR EAEAAAADAIAQ/////0AABzCgyJqE7r+9AUAACDCgyJqE7r+9AQsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwACgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAWACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0AAB4AJYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADgu MAADACaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA AA6FAAAAAAAAAwAwgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADADKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AQYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAe AEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAA AEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AABN2w== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDBFD5.05E25460-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:20:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Shedim Problem (Re: Why not spread the Word) At 5:29 PM -0400 8/4/98, ixDragons wrote: >What happens to an Angel possessed by a Shedite? Does he eventually Fall? Shedim cannot possess angels by their resonance because they just can't. A Shedite can co-exist in the same body with a human soul, but not an angelic one. (Why not? #1: they're a specialized psychic parasite. #2: it keeps the angelic-dissonance-was-it-his-fault can of worms TIGHTLY SHUT.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 19:52:41 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Looking for Love...Archangel, that is... I should start out by saying that I have no problem with canon not having these Words taken by some angel or another. I'm sure that all of the reasons our esteemed moderator lists are held by a not insignificant number of Heaven's hierarchy. I am, more than anything playing the (hopefully loyal) opposition. Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 4:33 PM -0500 8/4/98, Eeyore wrote: > >Not to get started again, but I can't figure out WHY this word hasn't been > >re-filled. It seems like an awfully big omission to me. The same holds > >for the Word of Humour. Heaven seems to be conceding an awful lot of > >powerful ground to the infernals for no particularly good reason. > > There are several reasons. > > #1: It's like leaving the light on for the runaway coming home. > (Hey, look, your old room is still there.) I miss 'em, too. But at some point, you have to move on. Nostalgia gives us some fine doo-wop music, but it also brought back platform shoes and bell-bottoms. > #2: The Word's former owner FELL. The second angel of Fortitude is > a Malakite... It's a War; risks must be taken. Bunker Hill fell, too, but that isn't a good reason not to have defended it. Whatever territory we fight over, be it a location, a soul, or an idea, might be lost. But we have to fight somewhere. I just don't see that someone espousing and embodying Love, or Laughter is inherently more at risk than the rest of us. And, no, I don't see the second Angel of Humour as being a job for a Malakite. > #3: Princes tend to get snitty at angels who hold their Words, and > go out of their way to use them for playthings. Then we find someone tough and get ready to give him/her a lot of help. Unlike our foes, we're in this together. It seems to be a commonly held belief that Andre's Word in particular has grown in strength in recent times. I posit that this is because we have ceded the field. > #4: Sometimes a Word's scope has been absorbed enough by other Words > that it's not necessary. (Love is gone, but Flowers incorporates > some aspects and promotes those, while Creation promotes others.) I don't want to sound too much like a Malakite given the thrust of the discussion, but I think it's time to try direct confrontation in certain quarters. Angels ALL embody love in some way or another; it's who we are. But this is too important a Word to break it up. > #5: Sometimes the Right Angel For The Job just hasn't shown up yet. Beware of allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the good. I believe that certain of the present Archangels weren't the RAFTJ, but they're getting better with practice. In short, it's time for a change of tactics. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #898 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.