From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Aug 13 05:15:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15561 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:15:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id FAA19332 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:10:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:10:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199808131010.FAA19332@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #911 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, August 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 911 In this digest: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Re: IN> Angelic Hearts Re: IN> Angelic Hearts [FotM SPOILER Alert!] Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Dissonance question IN> Angelic Hearts IN> Lilim Re: IN> Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry IN> The others... Re: IN> Demon Conception IN> Malakites and burning villages Re: IN> Malakites and burning villages Re: IN> Dissonance question Re: IN> Angelic Hearts (FotM spoiler) IN> Dominic's Resonance (FotM Spoiler) Re: IN> Dissonance question (FotM spoiler) IN> Angelic Players' Guide (FotM spoiler) Re: IN> Malakites and burning villages Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim Nitpicks. [Here there be Spoilers!] IN> FotM's supposed Flaws (Spoilers aplenty!) Re: IN> Malakites and burning villages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:35 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts >I'm not saying this is approach is particularly successful, or that I >particularly care for it, as it requires one to buy all the previous >books to get the most out of the newest one, but this is the impression >that I have somehow received - which could be wrong. I'm not sure this is actually the case. It's been my impression that the books are interdependent *within* the cycle, but less so between cycles. There might be references, but they shouldn't be major dependencies. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:37 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts >> On the other hand, Wind Servitors might be prone to steal people's >> Hearts in Heaven and hide them in odd places, just to stir up some of >> the more stick-in-the-mud angels, like Laurence's and Dominic's. > >Walter, you can't hide Hearts from the owners. Maybe from the Archangels, >but not from the servitors they are bound too. The heart 'calls out to >them' and 'acts like a beacon'. They might _move_ them, but they >cannot be _hidden_, not even in Hell. Re: Core Rules. Bad word, no donut. I shouldn't have used "hide", I guess. But you could still stick someone's Heart in someplace surprising/unpleasant (or as unpleasant as Heaven gets, anyway). Just to give someone a surprise when they ascend.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:40 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts [FotM SPOILER Alert!] >> Note that the timing isn't as critical as supposed -- no, he hadn't >> Fallen during the videotape episode (and indeed, Dominic, or probably >> any Judgment Seraph, would have known he only *thought* he had, which >> was not Truth). It was sufficient that the Heart be broken shortly >> *after* that; he might have decided to join the other side, thinking he >> was already damned -- *that* would have accounted for the Heart >> shattering happening later. And there was no one to question about the >> Truth of that, unless one of the direct principals (Max, Mira, Malphas, >> and Kobal) could be found and questioned directly. > >Well, in the adventure Dominic *is* confident that Maxmilian has Fallen. But is this after viewing the tape, or only after hearing that his Heart shattered? I don't recall offhand, and I don't have the book with me. >I got the definite impression that Maximilian has hysterics on videotape >saying that he's Falling, and then that he had Fallen *because* his Heart >had just broken. It may give that impression, but the two events aren't actually linked, as far as I know. Guess I'll have to look at the timeline more carefully. I know this is an issue that was considered during late playtest, because Elizabeth and I discussed it, with much the same answer as she and I both gave: Max *hadn't* actually Fallen during the tape, though *he* thought he had. Obviously this wasn't as clear as it should have been.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:45 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question >Hm. I think if I made that change I'd remove the chance a victim has to >avoid the geas with a Will roll minus the level of the geas. (I always >thought that was a bit kludgy, anyway; it means that someone has a better >chance of resisting a geas/1 "Give me $20; now *I* want to buy a CD." than >a geas/6 "Turn off your father's life support machine; I want to see if >the hospital staff get here in time to save him." I think it's more along the notion of realizing how much you owe the Lilim in question. If you owe her the equivalent of $20, (1) she can't ask anything too nasty of you, that you'd balk at, and (2), you're more likely to think it was too trivial to repay. Personally, I don't have a problem with the way it works -- the return favor is simply roughly comparable to the original one, and the bigger that was, the more likely you are to feel the need to repay it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:49 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question >>> I'm sure I've said this before, but I think lilim should have to offer the >>> bargain up front (as in, I have this thing you need and you can have it, >but >>> I'll want a favour from you in return). > >>Hm. I think if I made that change I'd remove the chance a victim has to >>avoid the geas with a Will roll minus the level of the geas. > >Yep. I agree. Once you have agreed, you give up your right to resist >whatever the lilim decides to ask for. We actually use this in our game -- if you actually *admit* that you owe a Lilim, she gets a full Geas on you, not just a "hook" that may or may not work. So the sneaky little demons often try to get you to admit it.... >Well yes, but I meant unfair as a GM, in comparison to the other demons. >All demonic resonances can be unfair to the victim, but lilim are worse >because it is an angel's nature to understand generousity of spirit and >find selfishness difficult to comprehend. I don't want to run a game in >which every time you ever accept anything from anyone (even if it is part >of their job, like being a chef) you might lose your soul. That kind of >unfairness I can live without. Well, I'd claim humans had it worse with Shedim, but just looking at the angel's point of view, they're only really on the hook if someone keeps doing them small favors, or does them a big one. And there's nothing that will keep the Lilim from being stomped by the angel in question after the fact (or his friends, during). Geasing angels is dangerous -- best to use it for things they don't really mind... too much. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:52 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question >Another house rule to make Lilim less munchkinful is to make the >relationship between Bright Lilim/Dark Lilim resonances more analogous >to that between Elohim and Habbalah. That is to say, take away from >Bright Lilim the ability to impose geases, and leave them with only >the ability to recognize needs. One of the complaints I've seen about >Bright Lilim is that even though they're so scarce and precious as to >exist mainly in rumors, every gaming group seems to have two or three. >This house rule makes Bright Lilim less appealing and IMO makes more >sense since presumably Bright Lilim should be selfless. But that doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't impose Geases -- Elohim may be angels, but they're also pragmatists who will do whatever is best for the Symphony, overall. I don't see that Brights should necessarily lose the Geas ability -- Geases aren't intrinsically "bad" in the overall Symphonic sense, no matter what the victim thinks. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:57 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question >> It depends on how short-handed Heaven is. And sometimes you have to >> take risks to accomplish your goals. It *is* a War, after all, even if >> it's a cold one. > >Yes, and in cold war, you don't go ahead and expend your precious one shot >reserves on something foolish because you might not get another chance. >The trick is to build up your weaponry reserves so you are sitting about >even, so no one takes a first shot. So that works both ways. Nor do you leave your important resources way back from the front lines, where they do no good at all. It's a tricky balancing act... you use them when you feel it might be a net win, taking the risks into account. >And Heaven, shorthanded? Isn't this the same place where there are >Superiors who can create servitors, and have ranks of experienced angels >on reserve? No, they don't have more then Hell does, so they can't just >send angels into suicide, but we're talking millions of celestial >beings. And maybe a dozen Bright Lilim. And those dozen are probably most effective on Earth. Leaving them in Heaven makes them essentially useless. Not quite, but close -- they're most effective in contact with humans. Stuck in Heaven they're just as much out of the War as they would be if they were killed (though not Fallen). >And theoretically the power structures of both sides are holding >about even, or else one would have moved politically or militarily to >finish off the other. So that 'shorthanded' argument doesn't work. I don't buy that -- I'd say that's *exactly* the case where you'd be straining to put more effort into the front lines. I don't believe there are many cases where there were too many soldiers at the front in a war. (Whereupon I will probably be muchly corrected by the military history buffs....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:06:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angelic Hearts >>>As far as I am concerned, the only sourcebook that matters is the core rules - the badly organized, often oddly misworded hardcover that sits on my coffee table. Anything else is just fluff. It's fluff with nice art, granted, but it's not to be taken as gospel.<<< Well, like, gee -- what's new about that? I thought _every_ GM picks and chooses which material s/he wants to use for individual campaigns? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:40:17 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilim >>>Heck, if this is the case, then no sane Archangel would let a Bright Lilim - - *any* Bright Lilim - out of Heaven.<<< This is a logical problem that I personally feel was never adequately resolved. I don't believe _any_ Archangel would allow a Servitor to keep a Geas held by a diabolical, and IMC, any Lilim that gets Redeemed either needs to rid herself of all her Geases first, or else take the risk of having her Archangel try to remove them. And if she goes and gets in debt to a demon after that, reporting it to her Superior and letting him rip the Geas off her is a less unpleasant fate than what will happen if he finds out about it and she _didn't_ tell him first... >>>Oooh! I like this. And take that ability away from Dark Lilim. Make them guess what the victim needs, but be able to force them into geases when the lilim provides it. Teh bright can't force geases, but can read genuine needs from people...<<< Hey....that's not bad. That's almost brilliant. I might do that in my campaign. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:59:36 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: Re: IN> Kerzog, Demon Prince of Weaponry Akumsa@aol.com wrote: > Did you read the write up? He was working with VAPULA, and together they > created Gunpowder, ect. Sure its sounds kinda against canon, but if Nybas can > invent the TV, why cant Kerzog invent gunpower and nukes? I would go along with Demonic suggestion and influence rather than invention. Besides TV can have interesting non-demonic side effects that suggest not just Nybas's work. Gunpowder allowed civilisation to mine as well destroy each other. I think having a demon prince of weaponry is just playing to the "gun" obsessions to much. Weapons are all in how their used. I always see the Gabriel with a smoking gun quite good... Besides how do you cast celestial/infernal weaponry ? I do see a powerful demon having this as his word, but not as a demon prince. MAybe it's time to start to using Demon Lords, knights etc. as well as Princes ? Roland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:01:05 +0100 From: Roland Ward Subject: IN> The others... Maybe I missed it, but what happened to Azriel (Azreal?) in the celestial/demonic hegemony. Roland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:54:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demon Conception At 12:51 PM +0100 8/12/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >I'm not sure about the use of Humanity. You have to pay Essence every day >in order to maintain the human state (IIRC), and don't get any Essence >while doing so. It's not clear if you can't be *fed* daily Essence, though, by someone else. (Gamesters get 2 per day, and Humanity only needs 1.) >And while we're on the subject, given that Celestial Vessels are normally >sterile, do they menstruate? It probably depends on who created the vessel, but none of *MY* PCs do!! I suspect default is 'no' unless they're married to a mundane or something. And they don't get PMS, either. Unless they have the PMS Discord, in which case they have it constantly and practice the Song of Claws until it's at level 6. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:52:39 PDT From: "Doug Muir" Subject: IN> Malakites and burning villages > Regarding the "kill the villagers to slay the demon" scenario: every >person killed was actively prevented from reaching his destiny. This >should give angels a pause before they try Mai Lai "tactics". Yes, it *should*. But if it doesn't, then what? Doug M. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:51:21 -0400 From: eswhanu@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Malakites and burning villages You want the best way to catch the Shedite in the room full of people? Have the Malakite break something, out of sight, so that the other people won't see it. Or use a Song that doesn't really have a visible effect (Song of Attraction, or Tongues). The Shedite will hear the Disturbance and react (it takes a lot of effort not to react when something like this happens). Found Shedite. And the Disturbance will serve two purposes: either angels will hear it, and this will give the Malakite more people to beat down on the Shedite, or more demons will come, meaning more demons for the Malakite to kill. On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:32:37 +0300 Yossi Gurvitz writes: > > > Regarding the "kill the villagers to slay the demon" scenario: every >person killed was actively prevented from reaching his destiny. This >should give angels a pause before they try Mai Lai "tactics". > > Yours, > Yossi > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 03:06:22 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question At 19:49 12/08/98 EDT, you wrote: >>Yep. I agree. Once you have agreed, you give up your right to resist >>whatever the lilim decides to ask for. > >We actually use this in our game -- if you actually *admit* that you owe >a Lilim, she gets a full Geas on you, not just a "hook" that may or may >not work. So the sneaky little demons often try to get you to admit >it.... Fine by me :) I like that as a house rule. Can the lilim trick someone into doing this when she hasn't done anything for them at all? :) (I'd say yes, actually...) > >>Well yes, but I meant unfair as a GM, in comparison to the other demons. >>All demonic resonances can be unfair to the victim, but lilim are worse >>because it is an angel's nature to understand generousity of spirit and >>find selfishness difficult to comprehend. > >Well, I'd claim humans had it worse with Shedim, but just looking at the >angel's point of view, they're only really on the hook if someone keeps >doing them small favors, or does them a big one. (I'm not that hot on Shedim either really, but they do have better defined limits IMO). The prob with lilim, to me, is that a subtle one can resonate a need and then do a favour for someone without them necessarily realising who is behind it or having any chance to refuse it or stop the lilim from doing the favour. You don't have to walk up to someone and hand them $40,000 with an IOU attached, you could just fake a letter from the national lottery or a deceased aunt or some vaguely believable excuse, such that the recipient could start to make use of the 'gift' innocently and then have the lilim turn up and pick up the geas with the -6 (or so) penalty to the victim's will roll. In fact if I were a lilim with access to lots of money, I'd put the effort in to create some very plausible front for dumping large sums of money on people. So if a random angel has a need for one of its mortal friends to be happy and the lilim finds a way to accomplish this, the angel is assumed to have already accepted the favour, whether they like it or not. The lilim probably gets a geas from the mortal too. (And just how many geases can a lilim pick up from any one action on her part? If it was something a lot of people needed...?) Unless you assume the need actually reads 'That they should be happy, and not as part of some demonic scheme.' If it was just the resonance, or just the geas then it would be fine. If they needed some sort of implied personal acceptance then that would be fine. It's the combination of both. The demon knows exactly what you need, and can force you to do stuff (admittedly with a will roll to resist, but at a penalty) for them when they find any way at all of arranging it for you, and they don't need your compliance to do it. If it had to guess at/ manufacture the need or required the victim's compliance to get the bonus to the resistant roll, it would seem less forced to me. Add in the fact that they have this great tracking ability to those on whom they hold hooks (ie. making it valuable for information even if you never collect on it), and that resonating for needs gives a lot of useful information all on its own, and I just think it adds up to a rather large advantage. I actually think that working such that only Brights have the need sensing ability could explain a lot about their psychology. If you know what someone needs, you can still choose to do it for them as a favour with no hope of anything in return. The fact is that most people will be grateful at that sort of show of generousity, particularly if it was something they genuinely did need, and decent ones will try to respond in kind or at least with a friendly or favourable reaction. Especially if you suggest that although you don't want payment, the best way for them to show gratitude is by trying to do the same for someone they meet in the future who seems to need it. A bright lilim could easily get into an 'upwards spiral' of encouraging charity and generous acts amongst mortals it deals with -- how might it feel if you had spent your whole life believing that no-one does anything without hope of gain, to suddenly be in the business of realising that actually.. people do... A dark lilim might have to work hard to create needs and get very miserly and possessive about them -- a bright will just read them like a book, and will realise that of them are so small and simple that she can do them for her friends easily. (And I'd figure that its the small needs that can sometimes be hard to guess). jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:13:17 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Hearts (FotM spoiler) Walter Milliken wrote: > >> Dissonance is not morality!! > > > >But Falling or Redeeming is. > > No, they're not. They're dependent much more on selfishness and > selflessness, as well as following one's nature. For the sake of debate, let's call it what you will. In the situation at hand, I don't see that there is a difference between selflessness and morality. In the case of Mira Klein (I keep wanting to call her Mira Harker; I must have Dracula on the brain), the selfless thing to do would be to refuse the geas and take the pain that this produces. It's a lot of pain, but then it's a lot of evil she's being asked to do. I still see it as a very serious, and not necessarily one-sided, conflict between two halves of her inherent nature: the part that is selfless (from "Bright") and the compulsion to fulfill geases (from "Lilim"). And even assuming that she does accept the geas and perform the mission, I agree with Elizabeth Bartley that this situation is not going to compel her to bring the artifact back and get killed. Actually, I think even the task of destroying Max's Heart might be a Level 6, because in the not too unlikely chance that she gets caught, Dominic is going to insist that she executed. Besides, haven't we now decided that Mira must have been friends with Maximilien, otherwise she never would have been able to find his Heart (and certainly not in the 1 hour that the geas gives Malphas)? This certainly raises the ante on how painful it's going to be to fulfill Malphas' orders. This is avoided by her suggestion of a Will-Shackle, but I haven't found her reference to unnoticeable ones made by Dominic; the entry in the LR is actually quite specific that high level shackles are difficult to disguise. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:09:41 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Dominic's Resonance (FotM Spoiler) I'll start this post out by saying that I can't find any reference to a resonance not working as well if a Demon Prince is involved. I've checked the index and a few selected places in the FAQ. I've looked up references to "Resonances", "Seraphim", "Superiors", "Princes" and "Archangels" in the Core Rulebook, the APG & IPG and some of Revelations. I completely struck out. Could someone help direct me? But, in the tradition of not letting ignorance stand in the way of expressing an opinion, I move on. It has been stated that Dominic's resonance won't reveal the Truth of the situation when the PCs return from LA at the end of FotM. I have to question how much this is true. First off, how broadly are the plans of a Superior defined? One way or another, a lot of celstial activity (perhaps it could be said "most") is related to the plans of a Superior. I think it safe to say that we don't go this far. But how closely do we define it? I'm not sure that the construct would be covered. (I'm still curious about how Malphas and Kobal found out about it. Pendrake Carmichael's write-up is explicit that only he and Hopscotch know anything at all. Scamper only knows that he's got a big Essence battery. I don't think we can blame this one on the APG.) Neither of the DPs came anywhere near it. While they had plans for it, it's now running rogue and is out of their control. Pending my actually getting a look at the rule in question, it seems that it's borderline that this qualifies. I'd say that Scurvy trapped in Max's vessel does get covered, since Kobal put him there. But if the construct can be revealed as a fake, then the whole situation sounds pretty fishy. Dominic resonates on the PCs. He finds that there are two Maximilien's around. One of them is fake and the other is too shrouded by Kobal's aura for him to tell. He's going to leap to a sure conclusion from this? But there's another problem. Let's say that both are obscured and the PCs decide that they are fakes (which I still think is unlikely, given the trouble that's been taken to make them seem real). Presumably, they had some reason for deciding this (well, okay, players are sometimes prone to take a complete leap from logic; I'll concede that in this case, they deserve what they get). Do you mean to say that the presence of a DP's plans so obscure the situation that Dominic can't even resonate on the PCs to find out what they *thought* was true? Because if he can, he ought to be able to ascertain *why* they think it's true. Or is Dominic so distraught that the moment he finds out that they think the fakes were fake, he immediately drops the hammer without asking any more questions? I know this brings us back to the question of morality vs. selflessness, but doesn't it seem a bit, well, dissonant for Dominic to impose judgement without even attempting to learn the facts of the case? Particularly if he gets it wrong? It's a stressful situation, sure, but it seems to me that this is moving awfully close to the "Dominic as paranoid loony" depiction that canon was trying to avoid. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:16:42 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance question (FotM spoiler) Walter Milliken wrote: > And those dozen are probably most effective on Earth. Leaving them in > Heaven makes them essentially useless. Not quite, but close -- they're > most effective in contact with humans. Stuck in Heaven they're just as > much out of the War as they would be if they were killed (though not > Fallen). But we're not talking about just letting them serve on Earth (at least I'm not). We're talking about having a Bright Lilim (rare) with a high-level geas (which according to your reading is almost impossible to evade) owed to a Demon Prince (who can use said geas to make her do something very destructive, like, say, trying to destroy an angel's Heart) serve in a city (for six years straight) in which not only can demons get at her pretty much whenever they wish, but her Superior can't assign some sort of guardian (like a Cherub) to keep a close eye on her to make sure this doesn't happen. As part of its background, this scenario requires that two different Archangels to have put Servitors in positions that were monumentally stupid. In addition, one of them utterly abandoned his servitor (Maximilien has 33 levels of Discord and David apparently never checked up on him in fifteen years) and the other was criminally negligent (what was going to happen to Mira is inevitable, and if Blandine had thought about it at all she would have seen that). We aren't even given a clue as to what Blandine thinks is so important in LA that she'd take this risk. All it says is that she's confident that Mira will pass her test. Henh? With geases being that hard to resist? I can accept a scenario based on one of these premises, but to have two of them in the same place at the same time is a bit much. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:23:20 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Angelic Players' Guide (FotM spoiler) Well, my first problem with Mira being able to break Maximilien's Heart seems to have been decided in favor of the APG being pretty unreliable. If this is the case, would the Powers That Be at least consider doing an errata list for it? For my $18.00, it'd be nice to know which parts are reliable. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:00:34 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: Re: IN> Malakites and burning villages Personally, I kinda like the idea of overzealous angels. It's easy to be confused by trees if you're used to see the forest. A newly earthbound angel might very well forget that the Big Picture is composed of lots of Little Pictures (assuming this *isn't* a Servitor of Destiny), and decide to take a My Lai-style action. I think this happens occasionally, for a variety of reasons. Said angel will have lots of explaining to do to his Archangel after such a massive Symphonic disturbance, and will likely be punished, recalled to Heaven or destroyed on the spot (depending on the Archangel and the details of the incident in question). Some angels may learn the error of their ways, if given the chance. The real reason that I like the idea of this occasionally happening is two-fold: it encourages good RPing ("You killed them *all*?!? Why?" "I merely removed a cancer from their midst" "Yeah, at the expense of the patient!"), and reinforces certain elements of the War ("The Malakite did *what*?!? Damn, if he'll do that, I'd better be a *lot* more careful about disturbing the Symphony. I certainly don't want his attention!"). Of course, this depends on your campaign style. IMC, I view angels as having very clearcut notions of their duties and goals, which don't always gel with human ideas, or even other angels'. I think the actions of the Host should be as terrifying and savage as the Horde's...every once and a while. - -Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy still looking for the face I had before the world was made ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:18:43 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: Re: IN> Fall of the Malakim Nitpicks. [Here there be Spoilers!] I'm back! Well, subscribed to the digest, anyway. I've been reading the FotM threads with interest - a few comments: >Dissonance should be for "evil" actions I disagree. I agree that it is more fun to play if dissonance results from choices the character makes. However, take a step back with me from the role-playing and look at the whole game. It is probably more interesting to occasionally put the player (not the character) in a position where they can do the "right" thing and get dissonance, or do the "wrong" thing and not. From the role-playing perspective: Dissonance (for Angels) is caused when they act against their natures. Their nature has been determined by God. So when they act against their nature, they are acting against the will of God, and thus get dissonance. If a Kyriotate inhabits a body and discovers that the body he has inhabited is a pedophile, sure he could make his host confess to the police, but that would "harm his host" (assume that it will for the example, okay?), and thus be dissonant. But it's "obviously the right thing to do", isn't it? To harm his pedophilic host is to assume that God wants him punished, or that he *should* be punished, whatever God thinks. It is arrogant, therefore selfish and therefore makes him closer to falling. The Kyriotate must have faith in God that letting the pedophile continue (ie acting in his nature to look after his hosts) is serving some greater purpose. If he takes matter into his own hands, he cops the dissonance. It's more interesting if the GM keeps at the front of his mind that Angels are NOT humans. Put your player characters in situations where a human would act one way, but an angel *should* act another. In the above example, the pedophile may have been on the verge of confessing and implicating an entire pedophile ring. By forcing the host to confess, instead of letting him exercise his free will an evil may have been served. >Mira in heaven There have been some asking why Mira isn't stopped for having discord in Heaven. Aren't Geases the only tolerable discords in Heaven? I'm sure I remember the phrase "..although it does imply that the angel can't be trusted to fulfil an ordinary promise". It's in the core book, I believe. >Lilim get stripped of outstanding Geases upon redemption Nonono. Much more fun if they keep them. >Falling Malakim Could the question "Can Malakim Fall?" be entered into the list of Established Areas of Canon Doubt and Uncertainty? As a GM, I would prefer it if I can decide that question, rather than SJG deciding. For its other shortcomings, I thought that the doubt left at the end of FotM was a Good Thing (Malakite Trek III: The Search for Maximillian). That's not to say that a Canon term for a Fallen Malakite shouldn't be established, however - you can have names for things that don't exist! Since a Malakite's resonance is for Honor, I suspect a Black Malakite's resonance would be for Dishonor - or Humiliation. "Bal-Malakim, The Humiliators?" yech. Bal-Malakim sucks. Anyone know of some demon types that aren't in IN yet? SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:45:53 -0400 From: "Matthew D. Gandy" Subject: IN> FotM's supposed Flaws (Spoilers aplenty!) There has been a lot of chatter about the problems and inconsistencies of the adventure "Fall of the Malakim". Having read the whole book (which many posters have not done), and having liked most of what I read, I venture my opinion in the hope of smoothing over some of the adventure's rougher edges... There seem to be three major sticking points (four, counting the ending) that have everyone up in arms: Max's true nature by the end of the adventure (Fallen or not), Mira Klein and her Heart-shattering Geas and the reaction of the Superiors to various revelations (such as Dominic and the videotape, and Dominic at the end of the story). Max's true nature by the end of the adventure is unknown. This is the long and the short of it. If it is *not* revealed in _The Final Trumpet_, then SJGames has a lot to answer for. Even if he is Totally Destroyed, some answer to the question of Can Malakim Fall must be given. How does Kobal get ahold of his vessel (or one approximating it)? What happens to Max in the interrim? ("The real Maximilian disappears from Los Angeles" is all the Timeline has to offer.) If these questions are answered, then, yes, it was sneaky and underhanded to require both books to get the answers, but it also creates a wonderful sense of mystery that hopefully will be resolved with the last Revelations book. Anticipation is a good thing, particularly if it pays off in a satisfactory manner--this is the *Revelations* cycle, after all. (The Amber books, for example, had much the same effect, I would guess, in promoting nailbiting behavior waiting for the Next Installment). Point #2: Poor Mira. Implausible? Possibly. Blandine accepts a Bright Lilim, with a Geas on her, expecting her to work it out on her own (effectively). It is unknown if Blandine is aware of the nature of Mira's Geas, or that it is owed to her former boss, just as it is unknown (or at least unmentioned) whether or not Cherubim (perhaps even Blandine herself) are attuned to Mira. The real difficulty, as I see it, with Mira's terrible Geas, is that the exact nature of Malphas' plan is never explicitly stated. Geas level and difficulty of shattering Max's Heart aside, it seems like more detail was warranted here. Perhaps Malphas gave her *two* artifacts, one to lead her to Max's Heart, the other to destroy it. Better still, perhaps Malphas has spent the last 15 years lovingly (as much as a DP can love, that is) crafting a special, one-of-a-kind artifact, attuned to Max himself (using some part of him and some variation on the Songs of Affinity), that enables its user to find Max's Heart with ease, and exacerbate those flaws which 15 years of dissonance and Discord have promoted, unto Shattering it. These are unique circumstances. Who knows what kinds of flaws Max's Heart has developed over those tortuous years? I'd wager that no angel, Malakite or not, has *ever* accumulated so much Discord (33 levels!) without being destroyed. Perhaps it hasn't cracked as an Outcast's Heart cracks, but structural weaknesses could very well exist. Regardless, more detail could have cleared quite a bit up; a sidebar on the nature of Malphas' request and his little tool could have done wonders. As to Mira's compliance with such a request, again detail would have helped, but it useful to look at the overall themes here. "Go to Heaven, let this artifact lead you to the proper Heart and let it do its work" leaves out all of the explicitly nasty bits of Malphas' dirty deed--Mira need not know whose Heart is the target, nor what the artifact will do when it finds it (but she should rightly suspect *before* and feel immense self-loathing *after* the fact). It is her nature to fulfill Geases, just as it is against her nature to resist--regardless of to whom the obligation is owed. So her destruction (or nearly) is part and parcel of the precarious nature of the Gifters, their virtues and their weaknesses. Also, her fate is a counterpoint to Natalie's treatment at Malphas' hands, and the possibility of her Redemption down the road (there will always be Brights, even if they don't last long). The last sticking point is the reaction of various Superiors in the story. Dominic should be able to discern both Max's truth and the whole Truth on the videotape. Not knowing what happened *after*, and being presented with the remnants of Max's Heart moments later, prompted Dominic's swift decision. Hasty? You bet, but it was not a time for deliberation--Gabriel's First Trumpet had already sounded. Decisive actions was called for. (Although again, clarification of Dominic's reaction to the tape could have been more clearly stated, as Walter has already conceded.) The poor treatment of the PCs at the end of the story stems partly from these hasty choices, but also evolves from a lack of specific suggestions about the handling of certain encounters. In particular, detail about encountering the construct and Scurvy-cum-Maximilian would have helped. It is *assumed* that the PCs find both, but both are wiped out without evidence being collected to prove the "fake Maximilians" angle (or even suggest it). It is a good idea (doubt and uncertain should exist, even in celestial minds), but is promoted too much (having the hit squads intervene if the PCs get too clever seems to be the gist of the idea). Being made Outcasts/Renegades is also a bit much--becoming Outcast/Renegade is a choice, as most Superiors would just as soon zap your Forces all over the Symphony as see you go into exile. Shattering their Hearts personally (especially for demons) and telling them to get lost and hope they aren't found again after the current crisis is over is *possible*, but seems to stretch a bit far. I understand the need to hook "FotM" to the adventures in _The Final Trumpet_, but an easier way, all things considered, may have been the immediate assignment of the whole team to some potential suicide mission--like going to the Middle East and preventing/insuring the Fall of Khalid. It is easier to be disfavored than Outcast/Renegade. In the final analysis, what "Fall of the Malakim" lacks as an adventure, frankly, is space. Such an earth-shattering adventure deserves its own book, or possibly inclusion in a book with Final Trumpet's adventures. Given the extra space, more specific scenes, encounters and explanations may have been possible. At 25 pages (including cover page), it doesn't spare enough time for all of those niddling little details that would have smoothed all of FotM's rough edges. Otherwise, the burden of the story lies on the GM, and the explanation of "Because they're Superiors!" only goes so far... - -Matthew D. "Demiurge" Gandy still looking for the face I had before the world was made ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:35:37 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Malakites and burning villages At 02:51 13/08/98 , you wrote: >You want the best way to catch the Shedite in the room full of people? It's not a problem that happens every day - for some reason, the few In Nomine GMs I've known were leery of using Kyrios and Shedim in their campaigns, due the headache neccessary. > Have the Malakite break something, out of sight, so that the other >people won't see it. Or use a Song that doesn't really have a visible >effect (Song of Attraction, or Tongues). The Shedite will hear the >Disturbance and react (it takes a lot of effort not to react when >something like this happens). Oh? And what happens if the Shedite in question is Dim, Shedite of Artillery Officers, and he does not notice the disturbance? Demons, I understand, need higher Will than Perception. > Found Shedite. And the Disturbance will serve two purposes: either >angels will hear it, and this will give the Malakite more people to beat >down on the Shedite, or more demons will come, meaning more demons for >the Malakite to kill. IMO, the disturbance from a Song or a broken item is very low - few celestials will notice it, unless they're (again, IMO) within a few hundred meters. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #911 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.