From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 1 19:25:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19227 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:25:48 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA02838 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:11:58 -0600 Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:11:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199901020111.TAA02838@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1074 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 1 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1074 In this digest: IN> 'Tis the day after Christmas And something's not right IN> Book Recommendation: Barlowe's Inferno Re: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI IN> Your ad to 1 Million...$50 Re: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Re: IN> Your ad to 1 Million...$50 IN> Re: IN- Your ad to 1 Million...$50 (MiB) IN> Baphomet und Templars Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade (random thought) Re: IN> Canon question: Saints and Undead Re: IN> 'Tis the day after Christmas And something's not right Re: IN> Your ad to 1 Million...$50 Re: IN> Baphomet und Templars Re: IN> Baphomet und Templars Re: IN> Canon question: Saints and Undead R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:04:39 -0500 From: taa80@leica.com.au (wghtlost) Subject: IN> 'Tis the day after Christmas And something's not right 'Tis the day after Christmas And something's not right Were painfully aware That our clothes are too tight. We ate lots of gravy And pumpkin pie too Oh, no, not a diet... But what shall we do? Now you can lose weight without suffering. Call Tides of Life at 1-888-817-7443 for information on safe, natural, and effective weight loss products. Our premier product, Cheat & Eat, contains 1000 mg of chitosan per tablet along with herbs. This binds to fats and sugars in the intestinal tract, blocking absorption and passing them out of the body before you can absorb the calories! Also stops sugar cravings. Clinical studies show an average weight loss of 4 pounds per week with no drugs, side effects or starvation diets! We are offering a great introductory price of $29.50 plus $2.50 shipping for a 6 week supply. You can buy much weaker chitosan products for $70/bottle but we have located the best product for you at the best price. Call 1-888-817-7443 for more information on Cheat & Eat and other natural weight loss products. Tides of Life has specialized in natural hormonal products and related health supplements since 1993. Free price list upon request. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Removal from lists, please go to http://209.216.69.189/remove/ #2167659jdfv948 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:20:23 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Book Recommendation: Barlowe's Inferno I'm kind of a Barlowe Syncophant. I absolutely adore Barlowe's work, ever since I stumbled on a copy of his "Expedition" at a library in High school, and picked up a copy of my own soon after. He's a wonderful artist, who's great at painting truly alien creatures and landscapes. Recently, I chanced upon another book by him, and I just had to tell at least somebody about it. If you've got a chance, check out "Barlowe's Inferno" a book of paintings by Wayne Douglas Barlowe, featuring all sorts of really keen views of Hell. He paints a particularly disturbing view of Hell,Ones that could especially fit well in In Nomine are "Wargate", "Warhorse", and "Watchtowers." Other excellent pictures are "Lilith", "Firstborn", and "Bloodline" Wargate depicts one of the fortresses of the Horseman War, complete with sentries, bas-relief carvings, and a parading regiment. "Warhorse" depicts this huge sphinx-like flaming creature,presumably as the steed of the aforementioned Horseman. "Watchtowers" shows Cyclopean (In and out of the Lovecraftian sense) towers erected as Hell's first line of defense against "The Enemy from Above" The monstrous techno-organic structures. The paintings are suitably horrific and disturbing, and most of the images would fit very well as images for Hell in an In Nomine campaign. All in all, it's a great book, and if I'd had the money on me when I was at the Ann Arbor Barnes & Noble,; as it is, I'll probably pick it up off Amazon.com within a week... Barlowe's Inferno Wayne Douglas Barlowe © November 1998, Morpheus International, 72 pages. ISBN: 1883398363 ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Xander, Djinn Baron of Drugs, the Demon of Tranquilizers. nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:41:49 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI In a message dated 12/31/98 5:51:36 AM, peter.wiggin@pmp.it writes: >Well, I am in trouble. > From the rest of your post, I can tell... > >Reading some essays on the subject, I have started an adventure that my >players like very much but I feel difficulty of control. > >Too much connection between Templars and faith, Islam, Jews, idolatry, >even Graal and other reliquaries. OK. I'm guessing here, but my answers below are based on the assumption that your campaign centers on the idea that the accusations against the Templars were all true. (_Foucault's_Pendulum_, by Umberto Eco springs immediately to mind...) > >what could be in an IN setting the Baphomet? The Baphomet, or 'Idol Head' supposedly worshiped by the Templars, could be any of several things: 1) The Shroud of Turin (This is my favorite explanation...) 2) An actual severed head which would prophesy to the Grand Master of the Templars (perhaps all that is left of a powerful Mummy...) 3) A mechanical device (Vapulan?) which does the same thing. >What could be the secrets of the Templars? You could go to town here. Are they all Soldiers? Are the leaders all Undead? Are they Sorcerers? Are some of them Celestials (or Infernals...)? All questions *you* need to decide... >What about alchemic quest? Templars had this secret? The rumors are that the Templars had the mystical side of the Alchemic Quest down pat, and the 'base metal to gold' part working on an intermittent basis. >And, finally, what about Sufi religion and Abufihamet? > I don't know enough to comment, except to say that the Templars probably knew more about Islam than any of the rest of the Europeans of their day. >But, most of all: (and this give me a connection to "INRI" topics) >Templars, in their initiation rites, abjured Christianity by saying that who >died on the cross WAS NOT the son of God. Well, who was? (As a technical note, this does not abjure Christianity. It makes the Templars heretics from the Roman Catholic point of view, but there are many sects of Christian Gnostics who believe the same thing. Note that, however, the Templars were at least nominally under the control of the Pope.) >They say that in that period in Palestine there where two preaching figures: >one was Jesus, the other Bar Abbas, the older son of Joseph and so the direct >descendant of David (not the archangel, the king). Bar Abbas wanted the >kingdom of Judea, while Jesus was an illuminated preacher. >In Gospels the two figures are mixed and there are some points in where >there are words of forgiving and illumination, other of vengeance. >Believing Templars, Bar Abbas was condemned by Pontius Pilatus who sent >him to crucifixion according to roman law for Bar Abbas attempt to overthrow >roman domination of Palestine, while it seems most improbable that a roman >legatus as he was could "wash his hands" and condemn a person believing the >accuse of Jews. > >So, the real Jesus survived? > Oh, dear. This is getting silly. Bar Abbas means 'Son of the Father' in Aramaic. I've never heard that anyone thought that Barabbas of the Gospel account was related to Joseph Ben David, Jesus' putative father. I *have* heard, however, that Barabbas used Jesus' entry into Jerusalem as an excuse to start a revolt, claiming he was the Messiah. And that one Son of the Father died for another. The more traditional reason for denying that the Son of God died on the cross is because the Crucifixion was actually a vision, hiding the fact that Jesus actually escaped death, and a substitute body was put in its place (one tradition is that the body was Judas Iscariot's, and that *he* was the human redeemer vs. the Godly redeemer, Jesus). Or, there is the Gnostic argument that Jesus never actually had a physical body.... >Well, truly too much secrets... > Yes. >How i may deal with my players on this argument? > There is enough debate and confusion over the Templars that you should make up your mind as to what is 'real' in your game, and tell your players that the game is not the same as real life. > >If someone has already done a similar campaign, help me plz! > >[Peter] "Cu" [Wiggin], Archangel of the Celts > Mark Eddy (a Cornish-descent Celt, always glad to help...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:19:40 -0500 (EST) From: buy70@helium.dcs.kcl.ac.uk (gr8adz) Subject: IN> Your ad to 1 Million...$50 EMAIL YOUR MESSAGE TO ONE MILLION ADDRESSES FOR LOW INTRODUCTORY PRICE OF US$50.00 ! This is a Co-Op mailing service! I'll email your 5-line message to 1 million potential buyers for the low Special of US$50. Promote your products and services at a low cost! Very limited Space. Order your slot today! 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Once you return this Form, I shall perform the service without delay! +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ List Removals go to http://www.globalremove.com thank you very much )uk> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:30:52 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > The more traditional reason for denying that the Son of God died on the cross > is because the Crucifixion was actually a vision, hiding the fact that Jesus > actually escaped death, and a substitute body was put in its place (one > tradition is that the body was Judas Iscariot's, and that *he* was the human > redeemer vs. the Godly redeemer, Jesus). Or, there is the Gnostic argument > that Jesus never actually had a physical body.... That's _a_ more traditional explanation. It's not the only one, though. I grew up Unitarian and was taught something entirely different, namely that Jesus wasn't the literal Son of God. It's the opposite of the Gnostics; Jesus was wholly human rather than wholly divine. Once upon a time, Unitarians most certainly thought of themselves as Christians, and some of them (particularly in New England) still do. This heresy has a pedigree almost as old as the Gnostics. I believe it was called Arienism, but wouldn't swear to it. I also believe that in the early years (centuries?) of Christianity, it was most prevalent in Transylvania. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:00:08 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Your ad to 1 Million...$50 Is this the work of Mammon, Nybbas, or Kobal? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:04:31 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Your ad to 1 Million...$50 (MiB) > EMAIL YOUR MESSAGE TO ONE MILLION ADDRESSES > FOR LOW INTRODUCTORY PRICE OF US$50.00 ! Ahhh!!! Nybbas!!! >This is a Co-Op mailing service! I'll email your 5-line message to 1 >million potential buyers for the low Special of US$50. Promote your >products and services at a low cost! Very limited Space. Order your >slot today! First come, first served! Ahhh!!! Vapula!!! . . . >Mail/fax above to: >Al Jebaly, 3668 161st Terrace N., Loxahatchee, Fl. 33470. >Fax (561) 792-6175. Looks like a job for the... MiB Malakim in Black!!! Yes, that's right, I believe I've hit upon the theme of my next campaign, oh yes... But, the question is, how will the players adapt to the power level? How will they be able to handle the immense responsibility? How will they adjust to an all-malakite group?? They won't. You don't play the MiB. You RUN from the MiB. They're there to take YOU out. For one reason of another, Heaven's elite cadre of angels on the front line of this jyhad have it out for YOU. You can run... but they have Cherubim... O:::) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert Hmmmm... *Menunim* in Black... now THAT would interesting... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 14:21:35 PST From: "Karen J Davies" Subject: IN> Baphomet und Templars This is really weird. Your campaign has many similariites to my own, enough to make me suspect diabolic influence.... For me Baphomet is the word bound General of the Temple. He is a Malakim in service to Laurence and was a close companion of the Archangel during "the cleansing" of the 8th century. Baphomet was a corperal casualty of the war against the creatures of myth, where he died in some way "taking the bullet" for his friend. When he came out of trauma and was sent back to the corperal plane, it was just at the turn of the 11th century, Laurence was an Archangel and a human started conflict was just beginning that would create many opportunites for both sides of the true War. The Crusades. With the enormous upturn in infernal influence that came with this chsos and social upheval, not to mention Saminga being the proverbial pig in mud, Laurence felt that he needed an organised force of humans, in service to God and himself. Its primary purpose was to deal with the large quantity of recently recruited Hell soldiers with the secondary purpose of demon hunting. Laurence announced to all the Celestials he could contact that he would grant a Word to the one that organised the most appropriate force. Baphomet saw the window of opportunity. Hugh de Payens was the man Baphomet recruited to head his force and by 1118 King Baldwin II of Jerusalem gave his royal blessing to the group. The Order of the poor Kingts of Christ and the Temple of Solomon was born. Within ten years, Laurence gave the Word of the Temple to his friend and bestowed upon him his highest distinction. Pope Innocent II, under the Archangels influence, issued the Bull "Omne datum optimum", bestowing "every greatest gift" upon the Order. To cut this rather long background story short, we quickly skip to 1314. Baphomets word is destroyed, through hellish influence. He is crushed in Celestial combat be several demons and remains a Remnant to this day. >what could be the secrets of the templars? Almost anything could be used here, and has been in the past. >what about alchemic quest? templars had this secret? This was one of the charges made against them by Philip the Fair to make them all seem like witches and devil worshippers. Still useable if you want. Maybe Marc gave it to them to help create their great wealth, though it would have had to be under strict control. >and, finally, what about sufi religion and Abufihamet? This is my weak suit I am afraid. As an amatiar Crusadeologist i have read much historical work but not so much on the purely spiritual side. I would like to hear what you know.... The Jesus/Bar Abbas "secret of the templars". though while still usaable in a campaign, is by no means a proven belief of the Templar order. It is based on certain writings but it is purely theoretical. If anyone was interested, I could post my IN stats for Baphomet to the list, in both his Master and Remnant states. My campaign slips back and forward between the two time frames. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 99 00:30 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might >> According to Elizabeth (who is downstairs as I type this), the bonus is >> linked with the dissonance condition -- whichever Superior's dissonance >> condition you follow is the one that you get the bonus for. So if >> you're only "in service to", you keep your bonus. If you truly switch >> Superiors, taking on the new Superior's dissonance condition, and losing >> your old one, then you would no longer get the bonus for the old >> Superior -- you're no longer that strongly tied to his Word. (I think >> -- Elizabeth may have further comments....) > >This is Sean again, striking out from webmail this time. So if I serve >Andre and tomorrow Uriel comes back and scatters his Forces so far across >the Symphony only Yves can find any of them I am still considered of Lust, >still have the dissonance conditions of Andre, etc? That is correct, as far as I know. It's consistent with what happens when switching Superiors, and with what canon there is on orphans (some of which is mine...). Canon isn't entirely firm here yet; Elizabeth and I were discussing the issue somewhat last night. One strong possibility is that Word-connection (like Song bonuses or even access) and dissonance conditions are linked to the celestial's Heart. As long as their Heart is intact, it binds them to the dissonance conditions of the Superior who made it (normally -- there may be openings for exceptions). It also bestows whatever benefits might come of being a Servitor of that Superior, such as Song bonuses. Rites and attunements must be granted separately, though the Choir/Band attunement normally accompanies the creation of a Heart. Note that this is only proto-canon, and may change, or may never really make it into the system. For one thing, it needs to be checked carefully against existing canon, which hasn't been done yet, and the other writers and editors, as well as playtesters, will also have a chance to beat on it.... I may also be mis-interpreting some of Elizabeth's thinking here, so she'll have to correct me, if needed. >I must admit I didn't get this from the book, so if it's true I will be >greatly thankful to have learned it. As I say above, this isn't really official, though it is -- probably -- consistent with existing canon. Elizabeth (or John) could decide to canonize it here as an official ruling, though. In which case it would go in the FAQ until it got published somewhere. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 01:27:57 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade (random thought) >> "Uriel saw the Symphony as a manifestation of his own Word, a place where >> complete purity of thought, word and deed should prevail." Hmmmm... would it therefore be dissonant for a servitor of purity to disturb the symphony? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 03:40:20 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Canon question: Saints and Undead After buying (and reading) Night Music, it seems to me that Saints are given similar status to undead. Both can use non-corporeal songs, and are thusly more connected to the symphony, more so than mere mortals. Therefore can they purchase Choir Attunements? (page 31 of NM states that mortals cannot, but does not say anything one way or the other about the undead) I would rule that they can, but I'd like to know canon here. Thanks! Ciao! Happy New Years! - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 05:26:01 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> 'Tis the day after Christmas And something's not right Huh? Die Spammer Die! Keep Haagenti's people away from our list! I never liked him anyway! (Side note: Is it just me or do some of these supplements have too many Gluttony Servitors in them? Are they like the default comic relief or something?) Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 05:29:26 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Your ad to 1 Million...$50 In a message dated 12/31/98 10:26:14 AM Central Standard Time, buy70@helium.dcs.kcl.ac.uk writes: > > EMAIL YOUR MESSAGE TO ONE MILLION ADDRESSES > FOR LOW INTRODUCTORY PRICE OF US$50.00 ! > > This is a Co-Op mailing service! I'll email your 5-line message to 1 > million potential buyers for the low Special of US$50. Promote your > products and services at a low cost! Very limited Space. Order your > slot today! First come, first served! > > 1000+ SEARCH ENGINE SUBMISSION FOR ONLY US$15.00 > > I'll submit your web site info to 1000+ search engines, directories, > free links for all for only US$15.00. Best price on the internet! > > SUBMIT AN AD TO 150 TOP CLASSIFIEDS: US$15.00 > > I'll submit your ad to top 150 internet and global sites for only > US$15.00. An expensive way to promote your products/services! > > SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC TRADE OPPORTUNITY: $15.00 > > I'll promote your product or service worldwide through the Electronic > Trade Opportunities System that goes to millions of traders all over > the globe! > > SEARCH FOR BUYERS & IMPORTERS WORLDWIDE: $15.00 > > Locate buyers and importers in 100 countries! I'll submit your request > to 100 chambers of commerce in 100 countries. Ask them to advertise > your request for local buyers, agents, importers, etc. in their > country! > ....etc. etc. All together now.... "DIE, SPAMMER, DIE!!!" Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 10:18:48 +0200 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Baphomet und Templars At 00:21 02/01/99 , you wrote: >For me Baphomet is the word bound General of the Temple. He is a Malakim in service to Laurence and was a close companion of the Archangel during "the cleansing" of the 8th century. Baphomet was a corperal casualty of the war against the creatures of myth, where he died in some way "taking the bullet" for his friend. When he came out of trauma... I was under the impression that Malakim don't suffer Trauma. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 05:40:28 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Baphomet und Templars In a message dated 1/1/99 4:38:01 AM Central Standard Time, ygurvitz@netvision.net.il writes: > I was under the impression that Malakim don't suffer Trauma. > > Yours, > Yossi Maybe Malakim go into trauma a little bit. You know, just long enough to say, "Hey! Ow!" :) Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 03:02:58 -0600 From: "Bloodroot" Subject: Re: IN> Canon question: Saints and Undead - -----Original Message----- From: Perry Lloyd To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Friday, January 01, 1999 2:49 AM Subject: Re: IN> Canon question: Saints and Undead >Therefore can they purchase Choir Attunements? (page 31 of NM states >that mortals cannot, but does not say anything one way or the other >about the undead) >Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it's been stated that choir attunements are off limits for them normally, but a Superior could slap it on if they really felt the need. But this was back when you could also get an attunement from another choir of a Superior other than your own...again, IF the Superior put in the extra special effort. I think. Maybe this isn't the most useful reply... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 02:02:49 +0100 From: "Peter Wiggin" Subject: R: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI I'm very happy that some masters are trying to get me out of trouble. - -- About Abufihamet and Sufi, and also about Baphomet: Interesting. A theory signed by Frater Baraka IV of Whiskey Rebellion Camp O.T.O. gives the suspect that "Baphomet" stands for the arabian word "Abufihamet" (father of understanding) and connect this to a possible Sufi martyr whose head should be idolatred by templars. Is this a possible soluction in an IN setting? Even if it is probably not the best soluction, I will explain why it suites very good for my purposes: first: it seems something strange and long ago from standard in nomine characters: it is neither a celestial nor a mummy (considering it not evil) and so it should surprise my players, and after all they play in nomine because i give them new intricated secrets every time. In substance, if every secret is simply a Vapulan or other demon's intervention, very soon they will use their master to feed their beautiful piranhas... second: it is a powerful figure winning over death, so it seems that angel should try to resolve its secret. And now a new doubt: if they prove that christianity is not based on facts but on misunderstandind like that of "who died on the cross"... this could change heaven's politic balances? Maybe Laurence and Dominic could lose power? Again: investigating on templars secrets i arrived on connection between the fighting monks and Catar eresy, but on this argument i am trying to find out material, i will soon ask for your precious collaboration. :)) [Peter] "Cu" [Wiggin], Archangel of the Celts ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1074 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.