From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jan 9 13:06:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03756 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:06:27 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA00928 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:48:27 -0600 Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:48:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199901091848.MAA00928@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1089 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, January 9 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1089 In this digest: IN> The INcyclopedia has a new home. . . Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> Working for an Angel IN> Fleurity and drugs Re: IN> Yassa Massa Re: IN> Re: IN- INRI Re: IN> Servants Re: IN> INRI IN> Yassa Massa IN> product quality and tethers Re: IN> Tattoos Re: IN> INRI Re: IN> Discord and Rites Re: IN> Discord and Rites IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1087 IN> Discord and Rites (mildly off topic) IN> gabriels love of modern art IN> Error Re: IN> Discord and Rites Re: IN> Error Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:46:38 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: IN> The INcyclopedia has a new home. . . The INcyclopedia has found what I hope will be a good and permanent home at http://www.incyclopedia.org. All other URLs, including http://www.serv.net/~srf/index and http://www.serv.net/incyclopedia continue to work, although after a time I'll put in a link page instead of actual content. I'd also like to see if anyone is willing to volunteer to help the site grow. I have several projects that are just beyond what I have time to do, but would widen the spectrum and usefulness of the site, as well as a list of tasks that are just drudgework that I can't bring myself to do single-handedly. I'm not asking for any sort of commitment, or for a lot of hours. Some of the stuff is as simple as reading through a given book and double-checking my work; it could probably be done in an hour. Others are ongoing responsibilities for specific kinds of data in new books. It varies. I'd also like to publicly thank the people who have commented on the site or already sent in corrections, as well as the people who simply told me they thought the INcyclopedia was useful. Also, I'd like to specifically thank Archangel Beth and Lonnie Foster for being infinitely helpful and patient with me, in different ways, as this project grew. :) Steve [For anyone who hasn't heard me talk about this a million times, the INcyclopedia is my attempt to make the character information from In Nomine easily available for GM's and players. Go look.] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 16:06:57 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' I'm sending this a second time, since it didn't make the digest the first time through. Apologies if I've spammed you with this multiple times. Kevin Walsh wrote: > >It's the Band attunement. The extra character points for Roles aren't >really an attunement, they're the product of Asmodeus' control over mortal >institutions, and his obsessive secrecy. (Someday I must put together my >list of attunements that aren't really attunements. I think Calabite of >the Media may have to top the list.) Depends on the campaign. In my game, the character points Asmodeus gives for Roles are most certainly a supernatural attunement. IMC, most celestials need to carefully live out a life and fake paperwork to create a Role, but demons of the Game can use their attunement to simply will a Role into existence. This is because Asmodeus stands in direct opposition to divine law. Whereas God's law is absolute and eternal, beyond the ability of those under it to affect it, the Game is created by its players, and is played according to rules that are chock full of loopholes, exceptions, and inconsistencies. The Game is a consensual hallucination, existing because everyone knows that it must exist. So when a demon of the Game wills a Role into existence, it is trying to assert its independence from and immunity to God's ordering of reality. It's place in society is what it is whatever it says because everyone agrees. Think how in stories the evil advisor to the king shows up and no one thinks to question where he comes from or the motives behind his advice -- that's what a Game demon's Role is like. Nowadays, the Game demon is more likely to be a grey, colorless bureaucrat than an evil vizier, but the principle remains the same. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 16:41:42 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Working for an Angel dahak wrote: > >Casca and I did a list of why people might work for an Angel. It's in the >INC under Resources I think. > >As far as I can tell the resource level measures how valuable that reason >is to the human, and thus how much they will put up for it. Oddly enough >many of the reasons are the same for Soldiers of hell, except they mostly >believe that if your nasty enough Lucy will turn you into an Demon. > >Sometimes however the resource level is just going to be a measure of the >influence the celestials role is going to have over the human. I posted and >Angel and Human pair on the list a month or so ago [Salim and Inez] where >he hasn't told her about the war but she does what he tells her to because: When I was LARPing, there was a phrase used to describe a rule of thumb for planning a game: high epic-level plots yrump low epic-level plots. Even if Shot Glass and Joaquin Slowli are enemies because of their competition for the hand of the beautiful Ima McGuffin, odds are they will drop the rivalry long enough to stop Dr. Evil from blowing up the world. In In Nomine, working for an angel is a high epic-level event in a human's life. If you have an alternative between worrying about making your code thread-safe and serving a supernatural being on a mission from God in its fight against Absolute Evil, what do you do? Sure, the angel might expect you to die nobly for the cause, but...you have incontrovertible proof of an afterlife. And presumably martyrs go to Heaven. The only really serious worry is demons masquerading as angels. The two arson squad detectives the PCs recruited IMC worried about this a lot -- the PCs told them "by their fruits you shall know them" and counselled them to trust their own judgement about the PCs' holiness, but they still weren't sure how well they'd fare against agents of the Prince of Lies. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:59:36 PST From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Fleurity and drugs Re: Fleurity's alleged connection with drugs in general, both beneficial and abused/destructive, I do not agree. I think that the demon described clearly would have been more accurately described as the Demon of Drug Abuse. The beneficial drugs mentioned as under his domain (Valium and Prozac) are also drugs known to be easily and frequently abused. After all, the best known illegal drugs have a legal role as pain killers ... What I think is that there should be more use of Angel/Demon dichotomies, like the one recently discussed between Gabriel and Belial, to cover situations like these. For example, in my list of Academic Angels and Academic Demons (which will get finished and posted one of these days), there is the Angel of Student Protest and the Demon of Student Protest. The Angel of Student Protest is a Mercurian of Novalis; the Demon of Student Protest is either a Balseraph or a Calabite of Malphas (I'm leaning toward the Calabite; what do people think?). An Angel of Drugs would have the same Word as Fleurity, but he'd be a Word-bound angel working for whoever is the Archangel of Healing since Raphael died. And oh yes, they'd hate each other as much as Gabriel and Belial. Janet Anderson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:13:10 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Yassa Massa Paul wrote: > >Brian: > >Servants have two basic stats, Level and Resource. The level part I > >understand. The resource bit I'm a little fuzzy on. > >I know the mechanics. The Resource level acts as a negative modifier on the > >servants Will when said servant is told to do something he'd rather not do. > >Simple. It shows the level of control over the servant. This is backwards: The level shows the amount of control. Resource is how _useful_ the servant is. So a low-level, high-resource servant could be a powerful, but hard-to-control ethereal. A high-level, low-resource servant could be a completely cowed imp. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:22:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- INRI > I just think he was Eli, Eli who had stripped himself of his memories > and was walking among men, etc etc... Yeah, he had himself born into a > baby human vessel and then, you know the rest. In our Nephilim game, we're playing in the fun land of Millenial Madness. In that game's general canon, the Messiah was a Nephilim who, instead of incarnating in an adult human, incarnated in a fetus, which created a god-child with the Nephilim abilities who had a pure canvas to work from. At the millenium, there is, theoretically, the coming of the second Messiah, this one to herald the end of Time as we know it, as he will lead the Nephilim to Agartha (Heaven/Enlightenment) in one Incarnation. The problem is that there are secret societies everywhere: Nephilim societies who wish to help the Fool and those who wish to destroy the Fool. There are human societies (the Templars!) who wish to learn the secrets of the Nephilim, or destroy them, or use the Fool for their own desires. The game system, instead of avoiding Christ, embraces him and makes him a very important part of the universe, which I dig. What the hell does this have to do with In Nomine? Lots. If one wishes to make one major claim in their campaign, they have a very interesting campaign indeed, and this claim is: Eli was Christ, and Eli will be Christ again. Eli is on Earth, planning to reincarnate himself into a human child and be born the Messiah which will bring a new age of peace and creativity to the Earth. There are those in Heaven that don't think this is such a good idea, as the coming of the Messiah is the sign of the Armageddon, and worse, Eli as AntiChrist (which he will be, since he will oppose himself as his original being as Christ) isn't exactly a fantastic public relations move. On the other hand, there are those in Heaven who see this as an opportunity to spread a new religion which will breed a new set of beliefs in tolerance and accept the modern psychological ideas which are prevalent today. It may herald the beginning of a newer, saner, better religion for mankind to express it's belief in God. At the same time, Eli as the Messiah is a banner day for a large part of Hell. After he's killed - and Eli will _have_ to be killed for his message to become lasting and permenant - there will be factionalization, madness, people obsessed with the new religion. There will be splits, and wars between the most powerful will be encouraged. There will be heretical doctrines and those who will force humans to conform to the orthodox beliefs with guns and camps. This gets fun when humans are introduced. There are humans which will control and fund the uprising of the new Messiah - for he will be a TV messiah. There are those who will fight the new Christ, and there are those who will embraxe him. There are large groups of humans who will travel to the Arab Nations in an effort to convert all of Islam to this new doctrine, and those humans who will burn St. Peter's Basilica to the ground. There are those who will be leaders and those who will violently oppose the new Messiah in the name of Jesus Christ Our Savior, and those who will quietly form new congregations. This makes Dominic's position interesting, does it not? Especially as the champion of Christianity. [Anyway... I like this idea quite a bit, but something like this will never be seen in canon. Cest La Vie.] - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:42:06 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Servants In a message dated 1/8/99 9:40:47 AM Central Standard Time, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: > >>>This implies that a Resource-6 servant is either a fanatic or is > controlled in some > other way. Money? Fear/intimidation? The promise of a Heavenly reward (or > at least a > condo in a nicer suburb of Hell)? Or is it a more direct control similar to > the Will-War described in The Marches?<<< > > The latter. A servant's level is not necessarily an indicator of loyalty -- > a low-level servant might be very loyal, but easily able to resist orders > if he chooses to, while a high-level servant might hate his master, but not > have the ability to resist him. > Okay, thanks, but what about an angel/human relationship where the angel (probably a Mercurian) likes and respects his servant? Does the Resource level still apply? Does this subordinate relationship happen naturally, or is it purposefully brought into existence by the celestial? Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:37:33 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> INRI In a message dated 1/7/99 11:07:23 AM, jhart@btinternet.com writes: >Speaking in a hypothetical sense of how you might want to play around with >religion. and stories, I think we can agree that the dates of the gospel >writers are definitely debateable. Unfortunately, this just isn't true, at least as far as generational considerations go. The Gospel of Mark was finished, at the latest, just after the destruction of the temple in c. 70 AD. Matthew and Luke's Gospels date to c. 90 AD at the latest. The Gospel of John is the latest, with a probable composition date after 100 AD (more likely 120 - 150 AD, depending on who you ask). >So if you did want to posit a conspiracy theory in which Jesuis was a >figurehead, it could be pretty plausible. >Remember, this is an era in which people genuinely believed in fortune >telling, priests working muiracles and suchlike (OK, maybe they still do, >but it was pretty widespread), so the amount of proof required might not be huge. > More likely as a Jesus conspiracy theory is the one that Josephus wrote about. That Jesus was the illegitimate son of a Roman Centurion (possibly by rape, but Josephus isn't too clear on that point...) who got a reputation as a faith healer, then after he was killed by the Romans, his followers hid his body and started wild rumors. My point is that the conspiracy would have to have started earlier than Paul, or the composition of the Gospels, and especially well before the establishment of Canon, and that (most of...) the Gospel writers would have known the original Jesus personally, or at least known people who knew him. Whether they deliberately created myths, or merely exaggerated is up to you, but most of this would have to have happened in the early parts of the first century, based on historical evidence. >I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, that honestly wasn';t my intent. > I'm not offended, except by the typos. > >jo > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:00:38 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Yassa Massa >>>My problem is that i see the angelic host as too selfless to enslave a mortal this way, and I kind of like the free will idea...<<< So do I. The servants section in the Liber Servitorum goes into more detail, but basically, in order for a human to become a servant, he has to be willing, at least subconsciously. Many human servants might _believe_ they are unwilling, and desperately want to be free, but at some level they have to have accepted their servitude. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:00:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> product quality and tethers >>>But to get back to the point, it does seem to me that really one's options aren't as diverse as you might think <<< We don't think -- we know. It's quite amusing that you're telling people who WROTE the Tetherbook whether or not the options are diverse enough. You make many assumptions about how Tethers work and what determines whether or not a place can be a Tether, all of which are fine for your campaign, but incorrect canonically. (For example, a place that became a Tether as a result of a famous person or incident in the past doesn't necessarily cease being a Tether after its fame has faded. And not all Tethers are based on famous places.) Trust us -- every city has an infinite number of possible Tethers, and any potential Tether you can name, I can provide some justification for making it a Tether to more than one Superior, not just the most obvious one. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:59:25 EST From: Endlsskid@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Tattoos Hello ....Im back again...I was wondering if someone could possibly help me out. Since the topic of tattos did come up.....when I first came onto the list I had seen something about a Song Of Tattoo. After reading it....well just imagine.. Malakim descending from the sky (thanks to their trusty Wings Numious) stroking the images inked upon their flesh...suddenly the images flow from thier spots and bleed to the ground. As they strike the ground, it colasces into E.G.:An enraged black panther wrapped in flames( a fav wit Gabby's malakim), a leprecaun (a fav of Novalis),etc..etc...you get the idea. So if anyone could help me out here.....well, I'd really appreciate it ..thanks Endless Kid ???? of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 21:26:39 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INRI Earl spake: >Perry Lloyd wrote: > >> I just think he was Eli, Eli who had stripped himself of his memories >> and was walking among men, etc etc. > >I think Heaven might have noticed if Eli had gone missing for >30-odd years. It certainly didn't take long for them to >notice when he went AWOL this time, which started in the 1930s. > >Earl Oh, pooh. You're just no fun. :) - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 21:29:13 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites Elizabeth McCoy spake: >At 1:50 AM -0500 1/7/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >[...] >>Point, I had forgotten the fact that failing a dissonance roll (as a >>demon) >(or an Outcast Malakite) >>generates discord. However, I was wondering how Discord (not >>Dissonance) could disable one's Resonance. Of course, if you're gaining >>Dissonance every half and hour, you're pretty much screwed anyway. >>Every hour and a half, another level of Discord. :) Whee-hee. My >>players know all about that, don't you? heh heh... > >Heh heh heh. You know, I might be inclined to invent the Discord: >"Resonance Jamming." Where every -1 was a penalty to resonance use. ewww... nasty.... Do it. :) I'd use it. My players would HATE me. Heh heh... - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 06:26:41 -0500 From: dahak Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites - -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:35:33 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh On Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 11:52:54AM -0500, dahak wrote: > Remember Asmodeus believes that demons can acquire selflessness as a > discord. So he has his people kill you for having dissonance. Consider that > for him sending one message to Staciel Why Staciel, in particular? Surely he has specialised recovery squads, under the jurisdiction of someone other than Intrigue. Staciel because she is the only one of his high level minions I can remember. > Anyone who would report in: Will if they can. If they can't they will when > they can to get rid of the dissonance if nothing else.. I think the tacit assumption here is that they're not going to report in, because of the fact that they're the ones who ran away in the first place. Those rabbits who wait for the arresting forces to arrive are already in custody and such tactics are not required to deal with them. > Anyone who isn't going to report in is going to find loop holes in the > instructions to avoid dissonance if they can. If they can't they are forced > to either try to defect to heaven or come home to die. The extra dissonance > will make them believe that if they hold out long enough they at least have > a chance with an Archangel. I doubt it. The dissonance will probably give them the Paranoia Discord, if they haven't got it already. I doubt the average Renegade would bet a penny that an Archangel would redeem them if they found that penny on the street. All that propaganda they've been fed all their lives is bound to have an effect. IPG: p107 and 108 on Servants of the game and discord: The discords that enhance dissonance are considered dangerous, since they increase the chances of picking up a bad i.e. good discord IPG : p105 The selfless discord is a plausible outcome from a divine intervention on a dissonance check. > Anyone who is already an Angel has a steady supply of essence and no > problems. > Anyone in Limbo is going to come out of trauma with lots of essence and > discords. > Anyone who reasons in that way is going to die during redemption, anyway. It's Asmodeus reasoning that counts. As far as he knows if your going to redeem it's happened before he knows your gone.[The same day true when you don't pick up your evenings essence but.] If you fail to survive redemption its' still essence wasted > If he sends the minions of the game out to capture the errant minion he has > the chance of getting the minion or at least some of the forces invested in > it back. Plus he minimises the chance of their being another angel out > there. > No one was suggesting that they were mutually exclusive. Especially in deutero-canon, where the trick can only be pulled on the Renegades that have Hearts. In that case, you send out the message in order to incapacitate the Renegade's resonance, so that it's an easier target when the hit squad arrives. This is especially important when trying to get Calabim and Habbalah, whose resonances are nasty in combat, and especially fun when used on Shedim. Make it dissonant, shoot out its Vessel, and chain. How does Asmodeus know whether you've gone renegade or not if your heart hasn't broken? My understanding was this was an argument about whether the dissonance conditions made being a renegade servitor of the game unplayable. Of course, if you have reliable agents following the demon, know his movements, etc., you can continue doing this for weeks in order to torment him, and move in whenever you want. This a) might net useful intelligence if the demon _is_ in contact with angels and b) is fun. Anyone who's read the Gulag Archipelago, especially the chapter on arrests and the details of how Bukharin was treated will find it quite in character for Asmodeus. (I regard the Gulag Archipelago as Asmodeus' character sheet.) I wish I remembered the exact quotation I'm thinking of but it went like "Sometimes there was so much superfluous effort, so much well-fed energy invested in those arrests, that it seemed like a game." > If any Demon prince is willing to spend the time and effort to find you > then all he has to do is use Correspondence liberally to drag you into his > presence. > I don't think Demon Princes can use Correspondence 4 to Filter All Space. Libra Canticorum. P 65-66: The song of correspondence may be used with the celestial song of motion to bring the target to you. It may be used to make the distance to the target cost 0 essence. Total essence cost 2x your forces+3 plus 2 pints for the celestial song of motion. Thus he can snatch you. All of Asmodeus's minions [with the possible exception as always of Lilim] fall into the correspondence 4 category. He made you from raw forces or remade your forces, thus he is familiar enough with you to describe you. It might take three try's to find out which is the right version to use on you. I personally would assume that Asmodeus has correspondence 6 which just requires him to have met you once which is the requirement for being able to use Celestial Tongues on some one. This is of course true for any superior except Haagenti, Nybbas, and other newcomers who LCa describes as not knowing the songs of correspondence. > Renegades survive because either they have slinked off without being > noticed or they are not valuable enough for the prince to involve himself > personally in recovering. > I imagine Asmodeus takes all Renegades leaving his service personally. If Asmodeus takes all renegades leaving personally and they can't find a way to sneak off then regardless of the dissonance rules. Renegade servitors of the game get to live until 30 seconds after sunset. See above > It doesn't matter which prince wants a renegade dead, if he is willing to > spend 1/600th of his time [1 action taking 6 seconds every 3600 seconds] as > you suggest on dealing with him he is a walking collection of recyclable > forces unless he can find a new superior fast. > If the demon is in front of the Demon Prince, yes. Demon Princes are not omnipotent. > I can find no mention of it being voluntary that you regenerate essence. It's implied. Otherwise if someone is full of Essence, and performs an action which falls under the classification of a Rite, the Essence is wasted and can't be gained later that day. And yes, this means that if I were GMing, Daimon would not have generated Essence from the Creation rite. > It says nothing about fully redeemed angels and previous rites. > Why would it be dissonant for one category of angel to use a demonic rite but not another which is, by definition, more bound than the other category. > Which may be where Damion escapes dissonance. Since Eli gave her his choir > attunement which is usually the sign of having become a full angel. > I don't believe in the term full angel. It lacks precision. An angel is an angel. According to the text box on redemption you are not considered a full angel on being retuned to the light but on the later point when you have purged your discords and your new superior has granted you your choir attunement. The mention of dissonance for hell rites is only mentioned in the description of this probationary period. > Is there a cannon term for a point of essence? Chord perhaps? > I believe a number of campaigns use the term "measure". Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 06:26:48 -0500 From: dahak Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1087 This appears to be ditching the concept in the main rulebook that dealing with and recruiting new servants requires roleplaying as well as character points. Why bother when you can just dominate the minions mind. Minion "I want next Thursday off to visit my aged mother." Munchkin PC: I dominate his will and have him spend Thursday polishing my guns for an extra +1 The second problem is that this rules out servants for angels totally. The only reason they are sent to earth is to stop the demons messing up humans free will. The third problem is it makes the will war dominance somewhat less of a special and terrifying fate. What was wrong with the idea that the level of the servant was the level of its need [but probably not Need] for what ever reason to do the celestials biding? Then of course the players have to find someway of engendering that need. Another possibility [that I don't like all that much] is that in some cases the servant is working off a geas and that is what generates the will power loss. Adam The worst problem with deals with a devil is finding the fine print in the microdot hidden in one of the full stops. - -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:30:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Servants >>>Question: This'll probably be addressed in the Liber Servitorum,<<< Yes. >>>But what exactly does that mean? Where does this control originate from?<<< It's a supernatural, Symphonic connection, a master-servant relationship. The servant's will is suboordinated to that of his master. >>>A servant with a resource level of 6 probably has no Will left of his own (with regard to his master) and would slay members of his family if ordered.<<< Not necessarily...if that servant happens to have a Will of 12, he can still resist an order with a target number of 6. Also, servants can get bonuses to resist orders, up to a maximum of double their Will, if the order is particularly distasteful to them (ordering someone to slay members of his family would probably qualify). So even a servant/6 with a Will of 6, who normally has no chance of resisting orders, would probably get his Will doubled and have a 6 or less chance of disobeying an order like that. (A servant can also spend Essence to improve his chance to resist an order.) >>>This implies that a Resource-6 servant is either a fanatic or is controlled in some other way. Money? Fear/intimidation? The promise of a Heavenly reward (or at least a condo in a nicer suburb of Hell)? Or is it a more direct control similar to the Will-War described in The Marches?<<< The latter. A servant's level is not necessarily an indicator of loyalty -- a low-level servant might be very loyal, but easily able to resist orders if he chooses to, while a high-level servant might hate his master, but not have the ability to resist him. - - -David (who wrote the servants section for the Liber Servitorum) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:45:42 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: IN> Discord and Rites (mildly off topic) On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, dahak wrote: > No one was suggesting that they were mutually exclusive. Especially in > deutero-canon, where the trick can only be pulled on the Renegades that > have Hearts. In that case, you send out the message in order to > incapacitate the Renegade's resonance, so that it's an easier target when > the hit squad arrives. This is especially important when trying to get > Calabim and Habbalah, whose resonances are nasty in combat, and especially > fun when used on Shedim. Make it dissonant, shoot out its Vessel, and > chain. > How does Asmodeus know whether you've gone renegade or not if your heart > hasn't broken? dahak, hon, far be it from me to argue with a battleship the size of the Earth's moon :) , but is there any way you could possibly *indicate* in your emails what parts you're quoting and what parts are your own text? I get headaches trying to sort through it every time you reply to someone else's mail. :) Many thanks, Es ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:13:05 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> gabriels love of modern art The Saatchi Collection In a converted paint factory at 98a Boundary Road London is the Saatchi brothers famous modern art collection. Famous, or other infamous, because it's summer event (one of two annual shows) usually arouses vast controversy. Nor surprising when you consider that amongst he exhibits is Damien Hirsts famous embalmed shark! The only de facto permanent exhibit is Richard Wilson's sump oil lake, '20:50'. This will take up an entire room until the Saatchi's can find somewhere else. So is this a home to madness? Who else but Gabriel could find a tether in such a strange location. Inspired vision perhaps; but the place has been a quiet unassuming tether (as opposed to the more famous Tate Gallery) to Fire for a couple of years now. It's seneschal, Joha - Mercurian of Fire, first came to London with the aim of finding and helping humans who suffered for their art. In particular those who delighted in their perverse pleasure. Joha reasoned that his work was a preventative measure; by helping them not inflict pain on themselves he would prevent that pain from ever being used to torture others. He took the role of Joel Hartman - modern art expert (and amateur psychologist) and reviewer. He would personally interview the stars of the modern art world (where else do you find such twisted souls!). From there he would go on to try and help them by getting to know them over a long period, both personally and professionally. He justified this professionally as a necessary part of the inteview process. The people he wrote for all believed this as the quality of his work was always exceptional and briliantly incissive. It wasn't lonmg before he was working closely with the Saatchi's modern art collection. He helped to guide the collection and it's acquisition of more inspired art. Frequently this would turn out to be more and more bizarre culminating in a dead shark! Joha saw it all as the divine spark flowing through creation. Soon the collection was thriving, and, in a particularly lucid moment Gabriel saw the connection and a tether was born. Joha has been the seneschal ever since. Accordingly the Saatchi Collection also houses the best fire alarm and prevention system ever designed. He last spoke with his mistress when she accepted the tether and awarded him two distinctions at once (making him a rather young Friend of the Divine Spark), something Gabriel felt was…appropriate. Only she understood why. Now Joha will communicate exclusively with Sol. He has spoken with Yves though something kept between them. The Archangel of Destiny wanted to assure Joha that Gabriel understood and that his work was to be commended. Privately, Yves feels that Eli should really have this tether, but is glad that it belongs to Heaven anyway and is particularly proud of Joha. All this didn't, and still doesn't, sit well with Kobal who had designs on that tether for himself. Maigonigal, a demon that holds the word of Bad Art is the new replacement Kopbal has directly charged with taking the tether. His first move was to send a message to Joha. Naturally the piece sent to the collection entitled 'What Happens t5o Angels Who Poke Their Noses Into Our Business' was rejected as being too derivative; they already have one exhibit frozen in formaldehyde! Joha; Angel of the Saatchi Collection, Mercurian Friend of the Divine Spark Corporeal Forces 3 Strength 6 Agility 6 Ethereal Forces 4 Intelligence 9 Precision 7 Celestial Forces 4 Will 9 Perception 7 Vessel: Human/3, Charisma +1 (Art critic/4)/5 Skills: Artisrty/4, Escpe/2, Fighting/2, Savoir- Faire/3, tracking/3 Songs: Corporeal Atrraction/3, Celestial Attraction/3, Ethereal Harmony/3, Celestial Light/2, Corporeal Projection/3, Celestial Shields/3 Attunements: Mercurian of Fire, Vassal of Fire, Friend of the Divine Spark, The True Shape of Flame, The Last Spark. Special Rites: +1 Essence whenever a new exhibit raises controversy (i.e. is seen to be insired). Martin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:48:29 PST From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Error I observe upon checking that Raphael is the (deceased) Angel of Knowledge, not of Healing. (Who IS the Angel of Healing?) Janet Anderson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:59:02 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites Kevin Walsh wrote: >I personally would assume that Asmodeus has correspondence 6 F**k a Demon Prince AND an Oracle!!! I'm certainly not crossing him!!! Ramesh (Sorry I couldn't stop myself) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:07:42 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Error On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Janet Anderson wrote: > I observe upon checking that Raphael is the (deceased) Angel of > Knowledge, not of Healing. > > (Who IS the Angel of Healing?) This isn't a canon answer, but according to Davidson's _A Dictionary Of Angels_, there are three candidates: Raphael, Suriel, or Assiel. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:39:55 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Demon Princes and Words On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > > >> Angels and democracy. Angels don't believe in liberty in the > >> familiar sense, and don't believe in equality either. So how > >> come they do things like support fledgling democracies? > > > >Perhaps, also, they realize that it passes human ability to > >determine who the superior people ARE. Humans wind up using > >such hopelessly wrong-headed markers as race, gender, nationality, > >social class, physical strength or beauty, or wealth, as > >indicators of spiritual superiority. So a legal fiction of > >equality is preferable. > > Yeah -- it's a least bad alternative. I bet Jean is thinking "I > wish those social choice theorists would get off there lazy > fat duffs and hurry up and invent applied Pareto engineering. > The social forms they could then invent could win mankind as > much as a 27.3% increase in median social welfare!" I was under the impression that Jean portioned out scientific advances at a measured pace - basically giving us what we're ready for. I guess that, in his and Yves' opinion, we're not ready for a better society. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:45:08 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Destiny\Fate of Angels\Demons On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > That's possible. Actually I'm leaning towards the theory that celestials > don't have Destinies and Fates per se. For humans, once you've gone to > Heaven or Hell, you've already achieved your Destiny or Fate; there's no > way (in canon) that a blessed soul can go to Hell or that a damned soul can > be freed from Hell and go to Heaven. But angels and demons _can_ switch > states. Perhaps human Fates and Destinies are one-time and irreversible, > whereas a celestial gets a new one every time he experiences a state-change > (e.g. Redeeming or Falling), meaning that while it is an angel's Fate to > Fall, upon Falling he then gains the Destiny of Redeeming. Likewise, even > if it's an angel's Destiny to become an Archangel, becoming an Archangel > doesn't mean he's now incapable of meeting his Fate, since even an > Archangel can Fall. IMO, it's quite possible for a human to meet both Destiny and Fate. For example, if the (now snipped) person's Destiny was to write a great novel about the human condition, he could still do that while withering away in jail. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1089 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.