From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jan 19 18:37:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA32673 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:37:24 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA29030 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:23:53 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:23:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199901200023.SAA29030@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1100 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 19 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1100 In this digest: Re: IN> Webpage & Copyrights IN> Song of Correspondence IN> 2 Random Questions Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> Range of Songs IN> Range of Songs Re: IN> 2 Random Questions RE: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios Re: IN> 2 Random Questions (Doh!) Re: IN> 2 Random Questions Re: IN> Range of Songs Re: IN> 2 Random Questions Re: IN> 2 Random Questions (Doh!) Re: IN> Whine about GURPS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:33:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Webpage & Copyrights On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Perestroika wrote: > Its basic gist is that you can use their art if you mark that it's their > property (up to 10 pieces, iirc), but that you have to clear the use of > any copyrighted text. And remember that any copyrighted text at all can be quoted from for the purposes of 'fair comment', or 'review', or some such legal definition. So you can quote whatever you like in order to talk about it, and they can sue you if they think you're cheating :-) In practice, it means that you can quote from the book in your essay on 'In Nomine - a sociological phenomenon', but not in your page 'In Nomine - so just what is the rules system?'. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:58:22 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Correspondence >>>But that from the quote above will only reduce the distance for things moving to his location. I want to move him to my location. Which I know the location of. I can make that location act as if the range for songs of motion to it be 0. <<< Only _if_ you use the Song of Correspondence ON his location, which you must know. You _cannot_ use the Song of Correspondence to summon anything from any distance, no matter where it is, even if you don't know where, to your location. >>>Just as I could with any other location I have sufficient information on.<<< Bingo -- any other location you have sufficient information on! >>>I don't have to target where he is for Celestial Motion, He is the target for Celestial Motion and Correspondence enables me to do songs on people at any distance.<<< But not their _locations_ -- the interaction between Correspondence and Motion is special, as specifically described in the writeup. >>>The Destination is the location the spell takes him to. The write up does not require me to correspondence the origin point as well, so I don't need to know where he is.<<< Incorrect. >>>Which bit of the song write up leads you to that conclusion?<<< The part that I wrote (all of it). Look, I've explained this and explained this. If you still don't get it, change the rules as you like for your campaign. I'm certainly not going to stop you. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:57:52 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> 2 Random Questions 1) Does essence have a nature, i.e. Does essence generated from Dancing for 2 hours amongst the throngs of humanity have a different *feel* to essence generated by immolating 6 humans or are they indistinguishable? 2) Is it a metaphysical impossibility for 2 angels (or 2 demons) to hold the same Word or is it simply a common sense from the Seraphim Council (Lucifer) knowing that if 2 angels (demons) they would (probably) take the Word in different directions which would lead to much nastyness (like Gabriels situation)? Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:01:58 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:05:55 -0500 >From: Elizabeth McCoy >>It'd seperate Fatigue from Essence. Ignore essence use by normal humans >>(either that or give every human Luck advantage, sheesh), >Essence is no longer being spent to improve rolls -- in GURPS, characters >are more likely to make their rolls *anyway*, and don't need that >ability. (It still acts as a bonus to summon Superiors, but hey.) If essence= fatigue then a generalisation on the Compendium II rules for General extra exertion would fill the gap. >Actually, we were specifically told, "Don't do that Blood Pool thing >that got into GURPS V:TM." Hmm, that probably excludes the extra fatigue for specific uses rules [Gurps Tekumel, etc] How about the Gurps Goblins Reaction role from God idea. Presumably this would be reaction role from the symphony [Angels, SoGs, etc] / your symphony [Demons, SoHs, Undead, Etc.] which would be more random when called upon than IN essence use but the dissonance/discord effects on essence gain could become reaction modifiers which would cancel that out. Of course if celestials gain fatigue for rites and time of day then some of the feel remains. Not my best idea, especially if that has been used for interventions already, though I assume they are 3 and 18 on the dice as usual. Good Luck and may Gabriel be with you. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:01:55 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> Range of Songs >Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:32:44 -0500 >From: Elizabeth McCoy >>>Affinity >>>Corporeal and Celestial Attraction >> >>>If something's on another plane, then it can hardly be tugged in that >>>"direction." >>Contra Example: Character on the walls of Zadkiel's Fortress >>The item the spell is tracking is in the Vale. >>The character can see the Vale so there is a direction. >This is all part of Heaven, and presumably there are directions and >distances in Heaven, though this will depend on the GM. This is not >cross-realm. (It is only cross-Domain.) I think this may be due to my possibly mistaken belief that the near by bits of the vale of dreams can be seen from the walls of heaven, Fortress of Protection, Castle of Fire etc. >This is because and don't translate into English. If >someone gets a tug "up", they're going to figure the person is in an >aeroplane or on a hill, not in Heaven. Likewise, if it tugs down, the >person is in China, not Hell. But if nemesis can tell there is a threat coming down a teather then these even if the singer cannot sense tugs at non conventional angles [and I would have expected celestials might be able to, if only to explain what goes on when they follow each other into hell.] the shortest route to the location of the other half will be "up" a tether. So shouldn't it pull that way? >Ah, that part. No, it says the performer must be within the circle, >which is a very definte restriction on the location. Missed that, my apologies. My inner shedite may have been playing up. >>>Symphony > >>Ethereal might be able to reach between realms, at the GM's option, >>and celestial almost certainly can. (C'mon, this is a mongo obnoxious >>Song -- the GM is the only limit.) > >And Corporeal? Few of the burning feather songs are not obviously trouble. >Corporeal states, "It can only ask questions about [] subjects that >are on the corporeal plane." It also says you just ask the symphony questions and it answers, so do you have to use it on the corporeal plane or not? >Have you *read* these? So far, I count at least two which are pretty >blatant Yes but I had Correspondence down as blatant cross realm and one or two were my inner shedite. >It says, "the cosmos," "celestial message in a bottle". Shall I errata >Celestial Tongues, or are you having fun trying to get a Distinction from >me? Neither, I was perfectly happy with celestial tongues before you did the first errata, And knowing you to get the destination I have to accept your dissonance conditions. Besides it's not very safe being a Knight of Playtests. >It is across realms. It is not distance. It is all around you, if you >can only make the turn to the Q axis, instead of the usual dimensions >that live about you. Then locations in those realms have a distances from the corporeal realm. it's just along Q axis co-ordinates rather than the normal orthogonal set. The metric involved may be pretty weird however. >>While we are on correspondence. How does one calculate the forces of a >>location? >Blessed if I know. Then how considering that the three valid types of subject for this song include locations do we do so? >>>Celestial Oblivion >>The target must be within sight. >>Like all sight range spells the interfaces between the celestial and >>ethereal realms tend to allow you to see things across the boundary. >What? No. They don't. Where did you get *that* screwy idea? Main rule book page 138 Blandine's marches text box. From the balcony of Blandine's tower, the highest point in the angels side of the marches you can see Gabriel's volcano outlined against the walls of the eternal city. Both of which are in heaven. I'd assumed since the two towers were in some senses reflections of each other that the same was true on Beleth's side of the marches. The lack of any mention of having to step through an interface while climbing either of the two towers supported this implication since both cross the boundaries between the celestial realm and the ethereal. I had also assumed that one of the reasons that Malakim etc. Patrol the walls of heaven was to watch those areas of the marches near heaven. >There's a gap between when the soul leaves the body (if it does leave >it entirely) and gets anywhere in particular, apparently. Or maybe not. >Who knows. It's ineffible. After all the souls got to put its dreamscape on the market, shop around for a celestial form, come out of trauma, book a flight to heaven or hell, could take weeks you know. Long enough to stop Angels from talking to the ressurectee before asking a superior to put them back together. Adam Who hopes that at the moment he is not a shedite of Nit picking. But how could he tell he wasn't a Balseraph of nit picking? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:26:11 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Range of Songs >>>While we are on correspondence. How does one calculate the forces of a location?<<< "Objects and locations require the minimum Essence requirement of 3." Would you please at least read the complete description of the Songs before asking questions that are answered right there in the book, and then getting legalistic with what you _have_ read? >>>I also missed the million Repetitions to summon Lucifer song.<<< This is mentioned in the box on performance rituals. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:32:53 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> 2 Random Questions Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > 1) Does essence have a nature, i.e. Does essence generated from Dancing for > 2 hours amongst the throngs of humanity have a different *feel* to essence > generated by immolating 6 humans or are they indistinguishable? IMW, probably, but it's a subtle enough difference that most people who can sense Essence would probably not notice it. Then again, I can see Mercurian Essence connoiseurs (my apologies, I know I slaughtered that word ;), who could tell you exactly what AA/DP made available the Essence, and what activity generated it. I don't think this is necessarily canon, but I do think it depends on your campaign. If you want Essence-tasters, then go right ahead - there might even be an entire choir devoted to it. > 2) Is it a metaphysical impossibility for 2 angels (or 2 demons) to hold > the same Word or is it simply a common sense from the Seraphim Council > (Lucifer) knowing that if 2 angels (demons) they would (probably) take the > Word in different directions which would lead to much nastyness (like > Gabriels situation)? Metaphysical impossibility, I think. Besides which, it's just silly - bifurcating Words just leads to friction, which would certainly be a Malphan plot but nothing the Seraphim Council or Lucifer would do. On the other hand, it's your game. If you want Lucifer to award the same Word to two demons and have them duke it out, that's your prerogative. ;) > Ramesh - -EDG (on a roll, or is it a slide?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:11:07 -0500 From: "Matthew Stein" Subject: RE: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios >Even a Kyriotate of Creation should >suffer dissonance for leaving a host pregnant with a child she probably >won't be able to properly care for. I'd think that this would be a zero sum - no dissonance. While, sure, the Kyrio would gain dissonance from leaving a host pregnant using your example (thus in worse shape), I'd think that the benefits to Eli's Word would balance that out; I mean, a person, an addition to the Symphony, was Created - that's kind of cool. (Of course, if the host then went on and got an abortion, I think that Kyrio should be nailed with lots of dissonance.) But that's just my two cents. _______________________________Matt._____________________________ __ [Angel of Weird Ideas, servant of Eli, kind of kicking it for now.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:13:33 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> 2 Random Questions (Doh!) I (Ramesh) wrote on 19 January 1999 >2) Is it a metaphysical impossibility for 2 angels (or 2 demons) to hold >the same Word or is it simply a common sense from the Seraphim Council >(Lucifer) knowing that if 2 angels (demons) they would (probably) take the >Word in different directions which would lead to much nastyness (like >Gabriels situation)? Doh! IIRC those 2 celestials in The Marches who follow Gabriel about and have some both have Word associated with that responsibility (the same one). So I guess it's not a metaphysical impossibility (unless they were a special case). Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:25:51 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> 2 Random Questions Perestroika wrote on >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> 2) Is it a metaphysical impossibility for 2 angels (or 2 demons) to hold >> the same Word or is it simply a common sense from the Seraphim Council >> (Lucifer) knowing that if 2 angels (demons) they would (probably) take the >> Word in different directions which would lead to much nastyness (like >> Gabriels situation)? > >Metaphysical impossibility, I think. Besides which, it's just silly - >bifurcating Words just leads to friction, which would certainly be a >Malphan plot but nothing the Seraphim Council or Lucifer would do. I was thinking of a 3rd side plot. The 3rd side is very secretive and somehow the head is able to award Words to the Renegages and Outcasts working for it, and I was thinking about how to introduce the idea. Possibly Angel/Demon gains Word X but when Seraphim Council/Lucifer tries to fo their thing it fails or it succeeds but the Angel/Demon feels somehow connected to another being (a Renegade/Outcast already has the Word X). Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:49:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Range of Songs At 7:01 PM -0500 1/18/99, Adam Canning wrote: >>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:32:44 -0500 >>From: Elizabeth McCoy >>>>Affinity >>>>Corporeal and Celestial Attraction >>> >>>>If something's on another plane, then it can hardly be tugged in that >>>>"direction." >>>Contra Example: Character on the walls of Zadkiel's Fortress >>>The item the spell is tracking is in the Vale. >>>The character can see the Vale so there is a direction. > >>This is all part of Heaven, and presumably there are directions and >>distances in Heaven, though this will depend on the GM. This is not >>cross-realm. (It is only cross-Domain.) > >I think this may be due to my possibly mistaken belief that the near by > bits of the vale of dreams can be seen from the walls of heaven, >Fortress of Protection, Castle of Fire etc. You're more likely to see a symbolic representation of Heaven or Hell from the Marches (which is very prone to being influenced by conscious and subconscious minds) than to see much of anything except a Tether vortex (or some other representation of a Tether) from the celestial plane. >>This is because and don't translate into English. If >>someone gets a tug "up", they're going to figure the person is in an >>aeroplane or on a hill, not in Heaven. Likewise, if it tugs down, the >>person is in China, not Hell. >But if nemesis can tell there is a threat coming down a teather No, it can sense that there's a threat right in that empty spot over there, and the time to actual danger is getting shorter and shorter. >then >these even if the singer cannot sense tugs at non conventional angles >[and I would have expected celestials might be able to, if only to explain >what goes on when they follow each other into hell.] Note that the Corporeal Song of Attraction requires a *physical object.* Check FAQ on Cherubim and Djinn resonance for Celestial Attraction nuances. What celestials do when they follow each other requires them to be in celestial form, and they can then use senses like . >the shortest route >to the location of the other half will be "up" a tether. >So shouldn't it pull that way? No. If it's off-plane, it's off-plane and the object is quiesent, while the Celestial version says, "No data. Off-plane." Corporeal Song of Symphony: >>Corporeal states, "It can only ask questions about [] subjects that >>are on the corporeal plane." > >It also says you just ask the symphony questions and it answers, >so do you have to use it on the corporeal plane or not? Considering the default rules about realms, yes. Still, since it's only an information-gathering effect, a GM could probably rule otherwise and not be too unbalanced -- beyond using the SoS anyway. >>Have you *read* these? So far, I count at least two which are pretty >>blatant > Yes but I had Correspondence down as blatant cross realm and >one or two were my inner shedite. Bad inner Shedite. Send it over here to be smacked. >>It says, "the cosmos," "celestial message in a bottle". Shall I errata >>Celestial Tongues, or are you having fun trying to get a Distinction from >>me? > >Neither, I was perfectly happy with celestial tongues before you did the >first errata, The first errata fixes more things than the vague potential of ambiguity around Celestial Tongues breaks. >Besides it's not very safe being a Knight of Playtests. Blessed right. And when the Princess gets annoyed, she chews on your head. >>It is across realms. It is not distance. It is all around you, if you >>can only make the turn to the Q axis, instead of the usual dimensions >>that live about you. > >Then locations in those realms have a distances from the corporeal realm. >it's just along Q axis co-ordinates rather than the normal orthogonal set. >The metric involved may be pretty weird however. Heh. Quite. But it's not distance as Songs measure it. >>>The target must be within sight. >>>Like all sight range spells the interfaces between the celestial and >>>ethereal realms tend to allow you to see things across the boundary. > >>What? No. They don't. Where did you get *that* screwy idea? > >Main rule book page 138 Blandine's marches text box. From the balcony of >Blandine's tower, the highest point in the angels side of the marches you >can see Gabriel's volcano outlined against the walls of the eternal city. >Both of which are in heaven. Yeah, well, the descriptions of all of that are *so* complicated that it's hard to see. It is possible that Blandine (and Beleth) have some sort of realtime copy, and one would not want to deal with them. (The Marches are very fluid.) Those may be exceptions -- or they may not be. >I'd assumed since the two towers were in some senses reflections of each >other that the same was true on Beleth's side of the marches. >The lack of any mention of having to step through an interface while >climbing either of the two towers supported this implication since both >cross the boundaries between the celestial realm and the ethereal. There's an interface -- as noted in the Liber Castellorum. >I had also assumed that one of the reasons that Malakim etc. Patrol the >walls of heaven was to watch those areas of the marches near heaven. Actually, it's to watch out for people from Hell. >>There's a gap between when the soul leaves the body (if it does leave >>it entirely) and gets anywhere in particular, apparently. Or maybe not. >>Who knows. It's ineffible. > >After all the souls got to put its dreamscape on the market, shop around >for a celestial form, come out of trauma, book a flight to heaven or hell, >could take weeks you know. Long enough to stop Angels from talking to the >ressurectee before asking a superior to put them back together. > >Adam >Who hopes that at the moment he is not a shedite of Nit picking. >But how could he tell he wasn't a Balseraph of nit picking? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:49:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> 2 Random Questions At 11:57 PM +0000 1/18/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >1) Does essence have a nature, i.e. Does essence generated from Dancing for >2 hours amongst the throngs of humanity have a different *feel* to essence >generated by immolating 6 humans or are they indistinguishable? Canon doubt and uncertainty. Mere Servitors cannot tell the difference. Some believe Superiors can, and this may or may not affect their behavior, especially if they're spending Essence to invoke their Superiors. >2) Is it a metaphysical impossibility for 2 angels (or 2 demons) to hold >the same Word or is it simply a common sense from the Seraphim Council >(Lucifer) knowing that if 2 angels (demons) they would (probably) take the >Word in different directions which would lead to much nastyness (like >Gabriels situation)? It is possible for them to do so, but is rarely reccommended because it tends to cause complexities (some crippling) when dealing with one's opposite number. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:12:51 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> 2 Random Questions (Doh!) - -----Original Message----- From: Ramesh Satkurunath So >I guess it's not a metaphysical impossibility (unless they were a special >case). There are 2 angels of Final Judgement too, IIRC. jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 19:19 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS >>There's no non-messy way around it that I can see. Adding new stats to >>GURPS is pretty much forbidden > >To be honest that's a damn shame. My biggest gripe about GURPS is that >although it claims to be Urniversal the fact that it has only 4 stats makes >it not reflect many games worlds where other measures of a character >(Stats) are very important. Depends on how you look at it, and what constitutes "very important" in your mind. It certainly precludes certain types of game mechanics (such as adding specific stats for mages, say). Some leveled advantages (psi and superpowers) act somewhat like additional stats. > Simply having Perception and/or Will based on >INT (IMO) in no way fits with the IN universe - why should an Ethereally >strong character be strong Celestially? Then again, why shouldn't they? It's not something that's subject to a reality check.... That said, it's easy enough to handle that character in the current, very draft-y, version of the mechanics -- it's a character with a relatively low IQ, with several levels of Alertness and Strong Will (which correspond roughly with Perception and Will). You could also choose to make Will and Perception separate stats, as is already possible using alternate rules in the GURPS Compendium, but this will not be the "core" method in GURPS IN. I should remember to mention this in a sidebar somewhere as a useful variant rule to adopt for a GURPS IN game, though.... > I have played games of based on >GURPS where the GM added more mental stats (I think it was one for Psionics >and one for Magic) which worked quit well and because everyone had those >stats all it did was to slightly increase point totals, sure it wasn't >cannon but it worked and that's all that matters. That's fine for a house game, but it makes things a lot more complicated when you start moving characters from one place to another, which is a strongly-desired feature in GURPS. The most important issue here is that characters shouldn't suddenly acquire new stats if they're pulled in from another world (in a cross-genre game) or just borrowed from another book, as might be likely when mixing GURPS IN with the GURPS historical books. System unity is important to the designers. GURPS V:tM introduced such new stats, and it apparently made a mess of things -- the GURPS Powers That Be have sworn off any similar things in the future. > but, but, but, I just don't think it would feel like IN if you >remove stuff based on Forces, The Forces will still be there, but not as a primary game mechanic -- they'll be more of a game-world flavor thing. Some derivatives of them will survive, but I'm still playing with the exact mechanics. To avoid having humans "suddenly discover" that they have Forces, the default value has to be tuned to somewhere roughly about human-norm. This is a messy spot that I'm thinking about right now, and don't have any answers I *really* like.... > made Celestial about as easy to kill as a >human Only the wimpiest celestials are roughly as easy to kill as a human. Even the "default" state is going to be tougher than all but the hardiest humans, and they'll be allowed to by unlimited Extra Hit Points, if desired (humans will only be able to buy Toughness). > and as for making Essence based on Fatigue!!! into mad incoherent ramblings> Essence in IN and Fatigue in GURPS do roughly the same thing, at least when you move into the unusual powers -- Fatigue is used to power those abilities that require any renewable source of power. The match is actually pretty good; one merely needs to slap some game-world flavor onto Fatigue to turn it into Essence. The main difference is in the *mundane* uses of Fatigue (by humans), which don't even have corresponding game mechanics in IN -- there's no rules about getting tired in IN, for example.... Doing anything else would pretty much require adding a new stat, like was done with Blood Points in GURPS V:tM (or so I'm told), and this was something I was specifically told wasn't acceptible. I admit it's not perfect, but the mandate is to *adapt IN to GURPS*, not the other way around. When the two come into serious conflict, my directive from the Powers That Be is that GURPS wins. The result will be that GURPS IN will have a somewhat different "flavor" from regular IN, but the two should be close enough than IN books can be used with GURPS IN without everything falling apart and making no sense. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1100 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.