From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Oct 25 17:36:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA32315 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:36:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA06858 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:34:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:34:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199910252234.RAA06858@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1376 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, October 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1376 In this digest: Re: IN> Relationships in IN Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> Relationships in IN Re: IN> Relationships in IN Re: IN> bright lilim question IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> I Have Some Questions Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! Re: IN> RE>Choir/Band names Re: IN> Relationships in IN Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> Fluff from another planet Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> Relationships in IN Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:49:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: > I mean, > it would make no sense at all to have Mercurians in existence before > humans had evolved! So the whole concept of 'Mercurian' solidified in > Heaven after humans had been around for a century or so... Or you can run it the other way: Mercurians don't look like humans; humans look like Mercurians. And animals look like various kinds of cherub. The celestials could be the Platonic archetypes after which life on Earth is modeled. (Seraphim, Ophanim, and Kyriotates might serve as the models for life on other planets.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:02:05 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question > > Where does it say the Lilim aren't demons. >Take it from me, ALL Lilim are either demons >or Brights. What the book DOES say, however, >is that LILITH is not a demon. She's definitely >a human, but all of her creations are demons >unless they redeem later. (And, just in case >someone is wondering, Lilith CANNOT create >Bright Lilim, just demonic ones. If she >were to Redeem, however....) > but Lilith is not a demon. she could no more redeem than I could. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:10:01 -0400 From: Mason Kramer Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN > From: Earl Wajenberg > Or you can run it the other way: Mercurians don't look like humans; > humans look like Mercurians. And animals look like various kinds > of cherub. The celestials could be the Platonic archetypes after > which life on Earth is modeled. (Seraphim, Ophanim, and Kyriotates > might serve as the models for life on other planets.) > > Earl (And Elohim. *Especially* Elohim. Darned manipulative space aliens.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:15:52 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN >> LOOK AT YVES!!!!!!!!!!!! >> *****HE***** has always manifested as a HUMAN MAlE in his celestial form. > >Whoa, there Tim... relax, man. S'no big deal. :) Sorry, just got a little carried away. >The way I've always figured it, originally, Heaven was much more varied. >There weren't as many distinctions... perhaps originally, there were no >choirs - just Angels. Over time, things started to solidify more and more, >and the choirs formed... angels that bonded with the humans became >Mercurians, angels that felt a bond with the fires of the stars became >Ofanim, and so on. That's the only explanation that makes sense... I mean, >it would make no sense at all to have Mercurians in existence before >humans had evolved! So the whole concept of 'Mercurian' solidified in >Heaven after humans had been around for a century or so... > >(Note: Don't know if this is canon or not, but it's the only way I can see >to have things make sense.) I'm pretty sure its not canon, as I remember it Yves named the angels and their Choirs before corporeal existance. And their are references to Malphas (and others, but his I remember most off hand) having a choir during the formation of the earth, that their specific places were used in creation. Mercurians can use their resonance on angels, so they could have been very useful in managing work teams, knowing how to get angels to work well together, putting together very compatable angels and so on. Although I agree that makes sense I can also see Yves addressing Mercurians, "You are the Mercurians, Friends of Man." A Mercurian raises their hand, "Um, what is Man?" Its possible God planned out creation to the point of humanity, and designed angels around the future plan. That woudl help explain why humanity has special standing, it was what God wanted to produce and then see what it would do with the Symphony. Something indepenent, something capable of seperate creation, something like God. Timothy, Angel of Rambling (who is never short of essence) If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:14:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question Ben Aldred wrote: > but Lilith is not a demon. she could no more redeem than I could. You mean, she can redeem as *easily* as you can. A human soul redeems by deciding they've made a mistake and should do good rather than bad. A demon redeems by doing that AND finding an Archangel that will be so kind as to rip it to shreds and put it together again right -- it hopes. Not to mention all the usual difficulties of going Renegade, dodging the Game, proving yourself to distrustful Malakim, etc. A human's redeption MAY be as troublesome as all that, but not necessarily. As to Lilith's redemption -- no doubt, it would be quite exciting. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:23:47 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! Rockin'! - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:20:47 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . At 3:34 PM -0500 10/25/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >How about that? An In-Nomine/Lensman/Illuminati crossover. Ah, but an Unattached Lensman could take any piddling Angel or Demon, by Klono's Tungston Teeth. (I happened to be looking through GURPS Lensmen today. A Gray Lensman is a thousand point character. Good ol' Kimball Kinneson is three thousand points, and he'd be able to take Asmodeus on mind to mind. And frankly, my money's on Kinneson.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:54:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Ben Glickler wrote: > I just don't see how servitors of Jordi are viable character concepts. > You'd have to be way mellow about working with humans (bet your boss would > love that), only hang out with other Jord-heads, or have some straw-grasping > excuse to hang out with your buds ("I wanna make sure they don't > inadventantly hit a stray cat at the local pound when the fighting > starts.")... I have to disagree. As written in canon, Jordi doesn't HATE humans, or forbid his Servitors from working with them. Sure, he did want to exterminate mankind, back in the day, but God and Michael asked him not to, and he complied. Here's what canon says about Jordi's feelings towards humans, all from the main book: "...mankind must regain its wild nature, or die." "And he accepts as allies those humans who share his love for the animal kingdom." "Jordi's angels cannot allow themselves to be swayed by the concerns of human society, its rules or its expectations of behavior. They gain dissonance if they value human life above animal life." Now, as written, Jordi can be played a few different ways. Many on the list see Jordi as fanatically anti-human, disliking his Servitors to do anything that aids humanity or involves working with humans, just waiting for the day when the animal kingdom can overrun the world again.... I, personally, don't play him that way. IMC, Jordi is concerned with the welfare of the animals of the world. Period. However, far from hating humanity, he feels that humanity is totally misguided as a whole, with no concern for the environment around them. Selfishness, ego, and pride - the vices of Hell - are primarily responsible for this problem in humans. Humans who can rise above this, and realize that the animals of the world are their equals... their brothers... deserving of respect and fair treatment... are a precious and rare find. Jordi views these humans as gifted treasures that have overcome the Hell-inspired selfishness common to society; they've risen above the others by realizing that they are not alone on the earth. Even the rest of mankind is useful. Jordi has faced the fact that humans dominate the planet... for now, at least. Therefore, the minds and souls of humanity are VITAL to ANY Archangel's plans... if humanity can change, if they can gradually embrace the animal kingdom and realize that society and 'civilization' is just a way to ignore the natural laws of the world, then Jordi's animals will finally get the treatment they deserve. Jordi knows that humanity must be changed - and must be changed gradually and subtely, not just wiped out ("Damn that 'hands-off' pronouncement... sigh... but it is the will of God") - and that means interacting with them. Now, that doesn't mean Jordi has to do that HIMSELF. I mean, yuck. Humans? No thank you. He doesn't really care for them (except for those that have transcended their humanity, as above), and would rather just focus on his animals in the wild. That's why he has Servitors. Parents have kids so they don't have to take out their own garbage, and Jordi has angels so he doesn't have to deal with humans. He's no Mercurian, and he knows it. Jordi's angels have several jobs, some related to humanity, some not. Some broad examples... * Guarding over a certain area or certain species in an area, ensuring balance and non-interference. * Monitoring and investigating zoos, theme parks with animals, and circuses for possible animal abuse. * Encouraging and overseeing humane societies, ASPCAs, and well-run kennels and pounds. * Fostering a love for animals in the hearts of humanity - anything from writing articles showing that loved pets extend lifespans to TV shows like Lassie to traveling petting zoos. * Working to stop most slaughterhouses, dairy farms, etc. (NOTE: Almost all such places are *horrendously* cruel to their animals - Jordi doesn't care about humans eating animals, but most such places offer anything BUT a "quick, clean kill".) This is just a short list of examples. As you can see, humanity is involved in most of them... sometimes as an enemy, sometimes as an ally, sometimes as just a presence... but you can't try to accomplish ANYTHING on Earth without factoring humanity into it SOMEWHERE. Jordi knows this. He doesn't like it, but he knows it, and assigns the distasteful work of interacting with humans to his Servitors. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Conspiracy religions CONvert, the Subgenius SUBverts! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:39:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Ah, but an Unattached Lensman could take any piddling Angel or Demon, > by Klono's Tungston Teeth. Looping back to the thread about celestial forms copying corporeal ones or vice versa-- Anyone see a family resemblance between a seraph and a Valentian? Or a Kyriotate and a Palanian? (Hope I got the alien names right.) It is probably not kind to compare Ophanim to Wheelmen. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:40:16 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . From: Whistling in the Dark > > (I happened to be looking through GURPS Lensmen today. A Gray > Lensman is a thousand point character. Good ol' Kimball Kinneson is > three thousand points, and he'd be able to take Asmodeus on mind to > mind. And frankly, my money's on Kinneson.) Only if he has help from the Arisians, or from the Children of the Lens. As good as Kim was, he still was only a Second-stage intellect. It'd be interesting to see what sort of connection would exist between Yves and Arisia, though... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:50:29 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question Karakash wrote: >(And, just in case someone is wondering, Lilith CANNOT create >Bright Lilim, just demonic ones. If she were to Redeem, however....) While this is technically true, it should be qualified with Lilith can RE-create a Bright Lilim with the aid of an Archangel, unless the Final Trumpet adventure has been errata'd out of existence. I suppose the book doesn't specifically state that she can create a Bright Lilim with the aid of an Archangel, though it seems a bit hazy to me. Why she'd want to create a Bright is something else, though I'm sure Asmodeus would like to know... S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:06:26 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? > Ok, so, like, what the heck is the point of Jordi? Do folks actually run a > game with servitors of this joker? I'd sooner shack up with a Dominican > than one of these maniacs. Seems you'd need some particular loose > flower-girls (sorry, Novalis) to tolerate this nutter, or folks who like to > hate humans just as much (Malakim of Gabby?)... > he is pretty pointless if you treat him as being dumb. but that doesn't make sense among archangels. heaven is a meritocracy, there are no samingas or haagentis who only got to power due to dumb luck or brute force. i consider jordi to be as intelligent as the other AAs, just a lot narrower in his focus. he's as devoted to fighting hell as the rest of heaven, he just doesn't think that humanity is the key that the whole thing's fought over. life in general is. i ran a campaign where someone played a servitor of jordi for a while. as far as i was concerned, jordi was perfectly happy to let his servitors help other angels (especially servitors of his allies) and fight demons. just don't expect him to worry about any humans who get involved liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:10:56 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Ben Glickler > > ...and there's nothing preventing a group of clever humans from creating > something that also meets criteria A, B and C... which would qualify it, by > God's Law, to generate Celestial Forces. Naturally, if God were interested, > he'd give it a soul himself. But he runs the Universe on auto-pilot these > days. > well, i guess not if you perceive it in a very mechanistic fashion, where god is some kind of factory owner who's set all the robots building stuff and then gone on holiday. i prefer the idea that god's still very much in action, so to speak, just less openly than in the old times. divine intervention rolls bare this out, a little. > If you disagree, then we have a few problems. If only God gives out souls > and he does so ACTIVELY rather than PASSIVELY, then how the heck does > Lucifer make demons? Does God pop down into hell and *poof* give the demon > a soul? I imagine that'd destroy heavenly morale. And if God is popping > around Earth a few thousand times a minute giving out souls, wouldn't that > confirm his existence and make the whole war (or at least 1/3 of it) moot? > angels and demons don't have souls. they are celestial beings, "pure soul" if you will, created by the direct manipulation of forces by DPs and archangels. no god required (except in that vague "god is everwhere" kinda way) liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:00:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Prodigal wrote: > It'd be interesting to see what sort of connection would exist > between Yves and Arisia, though... I figure that either Mentor and the Arisians are an entire race of Soldiers of God, or they are a front for Heaven. I prefer the first of the two. The icky-baddie races, culminating in the Edorreans, are, of course, the reciprocal Soldiers of Hell races, with the vast bulk of races, like humanity, being the battleground fought over. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:06:26 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? > Ok, so, like, what the heck is the point of Jordi? Do folks actually run a > game with servitors of this joker? I'd sooner shack up with a Dominican > than one of these maniacs. Seems you'd need some particular loose > flower-girls (sorry, Novalis) to tolerate this nutter, or folks who like to > hate humans just as much (Malakim of Gabby?)... > he is pretty pointless if you treat him as being dumb. but that doesn't make sense among archangels. heaven is a meritocracy, there are no samingas or haagentis who only got to power due to dumb luck or brute force. i consider jordi to be as intelligent as the other AAs, just a lot narrower in his focus. he's as devoted to fighting hell as the rest of heaven, he just doesn't think that humanity is the key that the whole thing's fought over. life in general is. i ran a campaign where someone played a servitor of jordi for a while. as far as i was concerned, jordi was perfectly happy to let his servitors help other angels (especially servitors of his allies) and fight demons. just don't expect him to worry about any humans who get involved liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:59:55 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! This didn't generate much response, which is a shame, but FWIW I think it's a nifty idea with a good writeup. If Beth is still putting stuff on the IN web page, I'd recommend this. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:10:56 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Ben Glickler > > ...and there's nothing preventing a group of clever humans from creating > something that also meets criteria A, B and C... which would qualify it, by > God's Law, to generate Celestial Forces. Naturally, if God were interested, > he'd give it a soul himself. But he runs the Universe on auto-pilot these > days. > well, i guess not if you perceive it in a very mechanistic fashion, where god is some kind of factory owner who's set all the robots building stuff and then gone on holiday. i prefer the idea that god's still very much in action, so to speak, just less openly than in the old times. divine intervention rolls bare this out, a little. > If you disagree, then we have a few problems. If only God gives out souls > and he does so ACTIVELY rather than PASSIVELY, then how the heck does > Lucifer make demons? Does God pop down into hell and *poof* give the demon > a soul? I imagine that'd destroy heavenly morale. And if God is popping > around Earth a few thousand times a minute giving out souls, wouldn't that > confirm his existence and make the whole war (or at least 1/3 of it) moot? > angels and demons don't have souls. they are celestial beings, "pure soul" if you will, created by the direct manipulation of forces by DPs and archangels. no god required (except in that vague "god is everwhere" kinda way) liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:35:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> I Have Some Questions At 7:58 PM -0700 10/24/99, Azrael wrote: >1) When is it actually a Malakite's choice (in reference to oaths)? A somewhat tricky GM decision, depending on the Malakite in question. For instance, in a strongly hierarchical organization (such as Judgment or the Sword), a Seraph's (or commanding officer's) orders may well trigger the "not my choice" clause. In something looser, such as the Wind, it's less likely to be an escape clause in that way. If one's Superior forbids it, you're definitely in the clear. (If _any_ Archangel forbids it, you may be in the clear at least while the AA is around. Allied AAs are probably able to give such orders.) If you literally cannot manage to physically take out the evil -- such as you are bound by chains forged by a Prince's Will -- then you're in the clear. You should try to take advantage of any openings you get, but hey, if you _can't_ take out the evil... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:29:25 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . > Prodigal wrote: > > > It'd be interesting to see what sort of connection would exist > > between Yves and Arisia, though... > > I figure that either Mentor and the Arisians are an entire race > of Soldiers of God, or they are a front for Heaven. I prefer the > first of the two. The icky-baddie races, culminating in the > Edorreans, are, of course, the reciprocal Soldiers of Hell races, > with the vast bulk of races, like humanity, being the battleground > fought over. The Lensman stories play quite well as a struggle between Destiny and Fate, IMO. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:28:14 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . At 4:39 PM -0500 10/25/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > > Ah, but an Unattached Lensman could take any piddling Angel or Demon, > > by Klono's Tungston Teeth. > >Looping back to the thread about celestial forms copying corporeal >ones or vice versa-- > >Anyone see a family resemblance between a seraph and a Valentian? >Or a Kyriotate and a Palanian? (Hope I got the alien names right.) Yes for the former, but the latter? The Palanian (I don't have the book in front of me either) values forcing his will on others, trickery and subversion. The Lensman among them was himself an abberation, because he was honest -- it was seen as a neurosis at best. So, clearly they're Shedim. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:29:17 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! At 4:59 PM -0400 10/25/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >This didn't generate much response, which is a shame, but FWIW I think it's >a nifty idea with a good writeup. If Beth is still putting stuff on the IN >web page, I'd recommend this. > It didn't generate much response because it *rocked.* I mean, *wow.* So what can we say? - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:35:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> RE>Choir/Band names At 10:22 AM -0700 10/24/99, Azrael wrote: >In the front on IN all angels are reffered to as the bene-elohim. >Bene meaning good, thus elohim probably means celestial or something. IIRC, the Davidson dictionary translates "Bene Elohim" along the line of "sons of God." Ah, here it is. "Bene Elim (b'ne elohim, 'sons of God'" -- angels or archanges who unceasingly sing the praises of God [...]." Also "Bene ha-Elohim (lit., 'children of God') -- angels, same as bene elim (above). According to Rabbi Simeon ben johai, those who translate ha-Elohim as 'sons of God' are in error and should be cursed." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:42:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN At 8:07 PM -0700 10/24/99, Azrael wrote: >On the INC Beth of Divinely Infernal Line Editing Demon Princess >wrote an article on Homosexuality in IN. And long before I was LE, IIRC. >I wasn't here when it was discussed but in the article under Blandine >it says she probably would approve of homosexuality in IN. I would say >that probably is not the correct term, although definately is. > >I say this because before The Fall she and Beleth were lovers, >unless it was a typo in The Book then they both consider themselves >female and thus were in a smae sex relationship. Actually, all celestials are "hermaphrodite." They reproduce via Force- manipulation, and only Superiors can manage this feat. They manifest as male or female according to whim and personality. (Eli, for instance, has been male, female, a greek urn...) So even if their human self-image swings to one side or the other, I'm not sure one can apply human terms of sexuality to them -- they're probably all bisexual, in the sense that the thing that matters in a relationship is _love_, not plumbing. That doesn't mean that they'd _necessarily_ approve of _humans_ being non-het. Humans, after all, are a different being entirely, and with them, plumbing matters for reproduction. Another reason for that "probably" for Blandine is, well... Remember how _her_ First Love turned out? See that crooked Tower over there? Right... There's a chance that it could have turned her against such things... Of course, whatever winds up in her Superiors book writeup will be the final canon word on the topic. (Which, of course, doesn't mean you can't go around being non-canon.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:44:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question At 6:07 PM -0400 10/24/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >Can a bright lilim fall? Yup. See the IPG, the section in the very back regarding Yo-Yos. Mind, Asmodeus considers each and every Fallen Bright his personal chew-toy, to be made to _last_ as long as possible to get every yummy scrap off... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:46:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 2:17 AM +0100 10/25/99, Liam wrote: >From: Walter Milliken > >> >> An AI, created through the natural processes of the corporeal Symphony >> (i.e., humans, and not celestial intervention) is not necessarily any >> more unnatural than a human baby. > >of course it is. humans only exist in the first place due to celestial >intervention Humans evolved, in IN canon. (Of course, it's CDaU whether God _tweaked_ that evolution, and certainly the Big Seven AAs will tell you (well, the ones still around) that they made the Earth, so in that sense, humans wouldn't have evolved without celestials. If you believe the celestials.) >> Until someone actually builds an AI in >> the IN universe, the question of whether or not it would have a soul is >> simply speculative (probably CDaU, and certainly a GM call right now). (Yup.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:31:00 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question At 4:50 PM -0400 10/25/99, Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >Karakash wrote: > > >(And, just in case someone is wondering, Lilith CANNOT create > >Bright Lilim, just demonic ones. If she were to Redeem, however....) > >While this is technically true, it should be qualified with Lilith can >RE-create a Bright Lilim with the aid of an Archangel, unless the Final >Trumpet adventure has been errata'd out of existence. > >I suppose the book doesn't specifically state that she can create a Bright >Lilim with the aid of an Archangel, though it seems a bit hazy to me. Why >she'd want to create a Bright is something else, though I'm sure Asmodeus >would like to know... Simply put? Because the Archangel would *pay* for it, of course. Don't be silly. (And I would think Redeemed upon creation would be the way it worked.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:45:00 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question From: Whistling in the Dark > At 4:50 PM -0400 10/25/99, Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > > > >I suppose the book doesn't specifically state that she can create a Bright > >Lilim with the aid of an Archangel, though it seems a bit hazy to me. Why > >she'd want to create a Bright is something else, though I'm sure Asmodeus > >would like to know... > > Because the Archangel would *pay* for it, of course. Don't be silly. And pay, and pay, and pay some more, as soon as Dominic heard about it... I could see Lilith using the creation of a Bright as a perfect method of messing with an AA who got on her bad side, actually. *eg* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:47:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 9:50 PM -0400 10/24/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >It's been established in Canon, particularly in the APG/IPG and Fall >of the Malakim, that Jordi created the creatures of myth that >populated the Earth. Created SOME OF. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:30:27 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) From: The Alien > > It is, of course, a perfect world for MalDom. > maldom? que? liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:32:26 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Wade Trupke > > Demonic response would be rather simple: Corrupt > 'em and use 'em! And hey, souls you can corrupt > just by editing a few lines of code... > this is why i wouldn't have AIs being truly sentient IMC. anything that could have it's destiny or fate altered by typing into a keyboard can't really have a soul, IMHO. the whole point of humanity is their free will liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:37:50 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? From: Ben Glickler . > > Ok, I should clarify -- by "dumb", I mean "virtually unplayable in any game > that includes characters following bosses who approve of humanity and even > encourage humanity, unless you want to play a servitor who always goes solo > from his friends because he detests the humans they work with but feels some > burning need to play a Green Party angel serving some half-looney boss but > still work with other angels in cities and stuff like that" > I just don't see how servitors of Jordi are viable character concepts. > You'd have to be way mellow about working with humans (bet your boss would > love that), only hang out with other Jord-heads, or have some straw-grasping > excuse to hang out with your buds ("I wanna make sure they don't > inadventantly hit a stray cat at the local pound when the fighting > starts.")... > i disagree. this is like saying there's no point having servitors of jean because they'd just spend all their time breaking TVs, or there's no point having servitors of gabriel because they'd only go on missions if they thought there'd be some cruel people involved. most of the archangels have particular areas of interest that they use their angels to deal with. but PCs are favoured servitors, troubleshooters who are used for special missions rather than "standard procedure". > On the other hand (and here's where the Libra in me changes his mind), there > was the bird-brain in the books who was watching over a human destined to > fall in love with birds, I *guess* you could do that and hate all the > *other* humans... > followers of jordi don't have to hate humans any more than followers of dominic have to be bullies. sure some probably do, but most just hate what humanity as a whole has done to the world. this doesn't mean they won't care about individual humans, especially those that help animals liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:01:55 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Fluff from another planet Jo Hart wrote: > [GROUP] The Drones Club -- Servitors of Stone Well, _someone's_ obviously been reading Wodehouse over the weekend... Any Drones fans should take a look at the Drones RPG, available free online at: http://www.granta.demon.co.uk/drones/index.html It's rather fun. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia A Kenyan man once said to me, "You can get used to anything when money's involved." He used to stick mice up his ass for twenty bucks a time. - - Spider Jerusalem, TRANSMETROPOLITAN #1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:06:39 -0700 (PDT) From: john karakash Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question - --- Ben Aldred wrote: > but Lilith is not a demon. she could no more redeem > than I could. However, you aren't a Demon Princess. She is a human Demon Princess and has the potential to be a human Archangel. Weird, but true. ===== +++Author, cook, computer genius, modest as heck +++ John Karakash __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:26:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 4:59 PM -0400 10/25/99, Douglas Muir wrote: > >This didn't generate much response, which is a shame, but FWIW I think it's > >a nifty idea with a good writeup. If Beth is still putting stuff on the IN > >web page, I'd recommend this. > > > > It didn't generate much response because it *rocked.* I mean, *wow.* > > So what can we say? Um... yeah! I don't usually like writing one-line replies, so I quelled the "Wow, that was great! I'll file it away for possible future use!" response that I probably should've just sent anyways... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:19:41 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) In a message dated 10/25/99 10:02:30 PM, esp.horsepie@btinternet.com writes: >maldom? que? He means BalDom (Balseraphic Dominic...), an old contraction for an even older idea. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:40:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question At 11:12 AM -0700 10/25/99, john karakash wrote: >--- Azrael wrote: >> I am not so sure that Bright Lilim are even angels. >> After all The Book says that Lilim are not demons, [...] > > Where does it say the Lilim aren't demons. _Lilim_ sometimes say they're not demons... But so do Habbalah, and who'd believe _them_? >What the book DOES say, however, >is that LILITH is not a demon. She's definitely >a human, [...] (And, just in case >someone is wondering, Lilith CANNOT create >Bright Lilim, just demonic ones. If she >were to Redeem, however....) She's human. She _can't_ redeem. She could seek salvation, though. (Why, yes, that _is_ the prefered terminology... Redemption includes a binary state-change -- which humans never undergo.) (That said, I've always thought that Lilith could create a _redeemable_ Lilim if she wanted. And had 8 fresh Forces newly removed from angels or taken from an Archangel. And was a little bit high at the time. But nope, even Mira Mk. II was a joint effort.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:40:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? At 11:46 AM -0600 10/25/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >Ok, so, like, what the heck is the point of Jordi? Do folks actually run a >game with servitors of this joker? http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html And Hitherby is a most sweet and endearing Servitor of Jordi. (I don't know if she's the _best_ role-model for Jordians that one could have, but she's fairly workable.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:40:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN At 1:08 PM -0600 10/25/99, Tim Groth wrote: >>From: Chris Bergstresser >> >>> Angel's don't "consider" themselves anything. The gender of vessels >>has >>> no more import for any of them than a particular set of clothes does for >>> humans. >> >LOOK AT YVES!!!!!!!!!!!! >*****HE***** has always manifested as a HUMAN MAlE in his celestial form. That's because God knows the future and loved George Burns' role in a certain movie. Which doesn't mean that Yves couldn't agree to donate Forces to, say, Laurence as they jointly created an angel -- which is celestial reproduction... Chosen gender doesn't have much to do with celestial sexuality. (Just you wait till I slip in that while Yves appears as a human male, he's actually a highly evolved version of humanity which reproduces via eggs and kangaroo pouches... *****THEN***** start this discussion again and see how far it gets you... Ahem.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:40:13 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! At 4:59 PM -0400 10/25/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >This didn't generate much response, which is a shame, but FWIW I think it's >a nifty idea with a good writeup. If Beth is still putting stuff on the IN >web page, I'd recommend this. I've got it marked, for when the current maintainer comes back from medical problems -- or I manage to shuffle the job off onto someone else who I have in mind. (If you don't know, you're not it. Don' bug me 'bout it. O:> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1376 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.