From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Nov 8 19:14:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18547 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:14:23 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA26879 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:13:34 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:13:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199911090113.TAA26879@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1397 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, November 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1397 In this digest: Mining Revelations Cycle (was IN> In Nomine Web Page Update) Re: IN> Itty-Bitty Pistol Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... Re: IN> Enjoy it, but don't destroy it. Re: IN> Weep for your children, for tonight they are mine. Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Enjoy it, but don't destroy it. IN> Superiors switching Sides Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Enjoy it, but don't destroy it. Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... Re: IN> Superiors switching Sides Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Superiors switching Sides Re: IN> Dodging vs. resisting Re: IN> Itty-Bitty Pistol Re: IN> Ethereal Campaigns Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Destiny? IN> subscription info Re: IN> Ethereal Campaigns Re: IN> Weep for your children, for tonight they are mine. Re: IN> Itty-Bitty Pistol Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Superiors switching Sides Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Superiors switching Sides Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Weep for your children Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 10:06:11 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Mining Revelations Cycle (was IN> In Nomine Web Page Update) Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Very interesting -- I like San Francisco, though if you ever get a > chance to write up some of SF's more significant Word-bound a la your > New York writeup, that'd be seriously cool. The differences between > it and LA are notable -- if in the Second Ed, post Fall of the > Malakim, a sourcebook of LA and SF came out, I'd shed no tears.... That's a fun idea! Though I haven't heard anything official, it seems to be a done deal that the revelations cycle is not going to be reprinted (at least not in current form). This would preserve LA and give a nice counter-balance. Of course, there _is_ a lot of useful info in the RC, but that's getting into other books (expanded, re-edited and clarified). Heck, even the RC storyline isn't terrible. Does anyone think it'd be worthwhile if it were put into a single book after suitable editing? (Note, this is a different thing from saying it would be _profitable_!) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for Data General + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:36:26 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Itty-Bitty Pistol > I've been looking at the gun Nicole used in the story at the beginning of > the Core book. If I'm reading it right it has the power of the check digit > multiplied by the artifact level. But here's the point I'm making. . . The > pistol is only artifact level one, so even if she hit with a 6 check digit, > 6 multiplied by 1 is 6. So she only got a max possible damage of 12. A > normal gun could do that (Maybe not a pistol). I don't see how it could > have killed the Demon Adam with one shot. She rolled a 111. :-) > I would appreciate if someone would correct me. > Thanks > Jace Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:43:11 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR > Blandine, Demon Princess of Despair I'm not sure I can peg how "Despair" is a narrow-minded facet of "Dreams". That's how Angels tend to Fall, isn't it? Unless your writeup has Blandine lose her word entirely and be given a word completely unrelated to her old word. Which is possible. Theoretically. Can't find any canon on it. Nice, flavourful writeup, nonetheless. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:49:56 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... > JORDI > Shedite Prince of Genocide I was going to complain about the word -- it's the only thing one can legitimately complain about in your terrific writeup -- and then I thought that Genocide, while not necessarily a facet of "Animals", literally or metaphorically, is definately a facet of Jordi's attitude. (Similar to Yves->Secrets, I suppose... ah, heck, shut up, Ben.) I'd prefer "Beasts" (confers a darker sort of animal) or "Savagery" (Fox: When Fallen Angels Attack!). But I'd still prefer your writeup to come underneath whatever word gets plugged there. :) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:54:12 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Enjoy it, but don't destroy it. > We haven't been Redeeming enough Princes. To help remedy this... > > HAAGENTI > Archangel of Gusto Ahh... I feel my dissonance of not being able to think up the all-encompassing Word "Gluttony" derived from slipping away... Gusto is just so perfect. Beautiful. Nice writeup for good old Haagenti. Time to cross him off m'list. ;) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:01:06 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Weep for your children, for tonight they are mine. > Christopher, Demon Prince of Corruption Subtle. Children, metaphorically embodying the raising or teaching of others, Fallen into teaching and raising others BADLY. Maybe he should've become the Demon Prince of Substitute Teachers.... or Coaches... I've archives all the fallen/redeemed superiors I've come across on the mailing list. There are a few in Dark Victory, but they're terribly world-specific. If anyone needs the ones from the list, lemme know. Include essence. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:06:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Ben Glickler wrote: > I'm not sure I can peg how "Despair" is a narrow-minded facet of > "Dreams". That's how Angels tend to Fall, isn't it? Unless your > writeup has Blandine lose her word entirely and be given a word > completely unrelated to her old word. Which is possible. > Theoretically. Can't find any canon on it. It makes more sense if you know that, before they became opposed Superiors of Dream and Nightmare, Blandine and Beleth were the Angels of Hope and Fear. The extended meaning of Blandine's Word has always included Hope, making Despair a good inverse. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:07:44 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? I would say yes. a Destiny is a Destiny and is, like so many Divine things, most ineffible. - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 http://welcome.to/EvM_Gamers "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" - -----Original Message----- From: Azrael To: IN Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:19 AM Subject: IN> Destiny? >Is a Bright destiny reached for selfish reasons still Bright and sttill a destiny reached? >Frex, If some Soldier of God in service to Yves finds out his destiny and his fate, decides >he doesn't like his fate and doesn't want to go to hell, so with a primarily selfish motivation >he reaches his nice Bright Sparkly Destiny (tm). Does it count? > >Azrael > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:26:24 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Enjoy it, but don't destroy it. From: Michael Martin > > HAAGENTI > Archangel of Gusto This was one of the most fun reads of any of the fallen/redeemed superior writeups yet! Thanks for posting it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:31:56 -0600 (CST) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: IN> Superiors switching Sides Here's somthing to think about here. Between Microsoft's monpoly. Flase advertising rampant. etc, etc. It's safe to assume that modern Buisness ain't fair. Ergo, Marc would probaly be a good canidate for a Fall. Would do the write myself, but on't know enough about Mamonn to do it, any takers. Bradley Paranial ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:30:27 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR At 9:43 AM -0700 11/8/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > > Blandine, Demon Princess of Despair > >I'm not sure I can peg how "Despair" is a narrow-minded facet of "Dreams". >That's how Angels tend to Fall, isn't it? Unless your writeup has Blandine >lose her word entirely and be given a word completely unrelated to her old >word. Which is possible. Theoretically. Can't find any canon on it. > >Nice, flavourful writeup, nonetheless. I think Blandine, the Archangel of Dreams -- the Archangel of the hidden hopes and aspirations within humanity -- would *have* to Fall into Despair. If she doesn't lose Hope entirely, she won't Fall. If she does... well, her old Word means nothing, doesn't it? I think Falling and the Word you get at the bottom is always related to three basic factors: 1. The heights you have Fallen from; your old Word defined your being, and therefore it's a part of who and what you are until you 180 that definition. So it'll be related to your old Word, whether as a variant, a mockery or as an antonym. 2. The *reason* for your Fall. Blandine in the writeup surrendered her Hope. She turned her back on the Dream. That wasn't in anger, but in angst. Therefore, she Fell into Despair. 3. Lucifer: while he's not one to squander a resource and he's not about to let a former Archangel (with all those nasty Forces) run around without some 'official' Hellish duties, ultimately the Word is always his decision. Despair appealed to him, on advice from Kronos (in the writeup). So she got it. It fit, and it helped ensure she would never, *ever* climb out of the pit. On the other hand, if Michael ever Falls, Lucifer will remember what Michael was and what Michael did to him, and react accordingly. "I'm the Demon Prince of *Bunnies?*" "Well, the Demon of Bunnies -- not enough there to hold onto those Princly Forces after about five minutes. But you'll do *just* fine with Bunnies, I'm sure. Hm. That Axe isn't very Bunnielike, do you think?" - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:32:36 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Enjoy it, but don't destroy it. At 9:54 AM -0700 11/8/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > > We haven't been Redeeming enough Princes. To help remedy this... > > > > HAAGENTI > > Archangel of Gusto > >Ahh... I feel my dissonance of not being able to think up the >all-encompassing Word "Gluttony" derived from slipping away... > >Gusto is just so perfect. Beautiful. Nice writeup for good old Haagenti. >Time to cross him off m'list. ;) > >Ben Clearly you should be collating/editing the Net.Book, Ben, and then submitting it to EDG for the INC, PDQ, OK? Sorry. My Managerial instincts kicked in. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:34:38 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... At 9:49 AM -0700 11/8/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > > JORDI > > Shedite Prince of Genocide > >I was going to complain about the word -- it's the only thing one can >legitimately complain about in your terrific writeup Well, thank you very much >-- and then I thought that Genocide, while not necessarily a facet >of "Animals", literally or metaphorically, is definately a facet of >Jordi's attitude. (Similar to Yves->Secrets, I suppose... ah, heck, >shut up, Ben.) That was my thought, and it tied into his reason for Falling. I considered "Darwinism," which is Animals taken to the extreme, but I felt that was prosaic. I also considered "Slaughter," which ties into the human use of animals. In the end, Genocide seemed to fit best. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:39:37 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors switching Sides >From: paranial@creighton.edu >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: IN> Superiors switching Sides >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:31:56 -0600 (CST) > > >Here's somthing to think about here. Between Microsoft's monpoly. Flase >advertising rampant. etc, etc. It's safe to assume that modern Buisness >ain't fair. > >Ergo, Marc would probaly be a good canidate for a Fall. > Oh, I think he'd have been more likely to have fallen during the last century. (If you think capitalism is bad now....) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:39:54 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR From: Ben Glickler > > Blandine, Demon Princess of Despair > > I'm not sure I can peg how "Despair" is a narrow-minded facet of "Dreams". Dreams embody the hopes of the dreamer. Despair seems a most natural flipside for that, since Nightmares is already taken. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:43:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Whistling in the Dark wrote: > On the other hand, if Michael ever Falls, Lucifer will remember what > Michael was and what Michael did to him, and react accordingly. > > "I'm the Demon Prince of *Bunnies?*" I think more likely is the reaction given a few days back: "Michael Fell? Hahahaha! That's funny! Kill him." There was an even earlier version, more than a year ago, of a Fallen Michael, STILL stronger than Lucifer, prowling the halls of Hell with axe held behind his back, while an anxious Lightbringer hides behind a stalagmite: "Here, Lucy, Lucy, Lucy! I've got a *surprise* for you!" Though I do like the "Bunnies" idea. The threat of *that* ought to help keep Mikey on the straight and narrow. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:51:51 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Superiors switching Sides At 9:39 AM -0800 11/8/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: paranial@creighton.edu >>Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>Subject: IN> Superiors switching Sides >>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:31:56 -0600 (CST) >> >> >>Here's somthing to think about here. Between Microsoft's monpoly. Flase >>advertising rampant. etc, etc. It's safe to assume that modern Buisness >>ain't fair. >> >>Ergo, Marc would probaly be a good canidate for a Fall. >> > >Oh, I think he'd have been more likely to have fallen during the >last century. (If you think capitalism is bad now....) > Jo.... That makes stunningly good sense, and is the first really decent explanation of the attitude of other Superiors towards Marc I've heard. Even if that's not what you meant. What if Marc hit the edge of Falling in the era of the Robber Barons? And while he's secure now, the other Archangels -- especially David - -- just aren't sure about him yet? - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:09:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dodging vs. resisting At 4:27 AM -0800 11/7/99, Jace wrote: >I have some questions about dodge. On P. 66 of the core book, it describes >dodging Vs. resisting. it says very clearly their is something called >resisting, but nowhere I can find does it go into what resisting is. p. 39, Contests, and p. 56, Opposing Resonance, and p. 66 itself in a somewhat intuitive way. P. 142 also uses "resistance" when refering to resisting a Balseraph's lies, and I believe most of the other Bands' Game Mechanics sections also include this, so it's more defined by usage. >It says on P. 78 that songs can not be resisted or dodged. Is their >anything else that can't be dodged or resisted? (whatever resisting is?) It says "may not be resisted or Dodge[d] UNLESS SPECIFIED." Emphasis mine. (Most Songs do specify that they can be resisted/negated. Note that the terminology or "resisted" and "negated" is added in the Liber Canticorum. "Resisting" uses the Contest mechanics; "negation" merely requires a successful roll on the victim's part. Note that the Celestial Song of Light cannot be Dodged. (Magic Missile!) Many attunements cannot be dodged, though ones that affect others can often be resisted or negated. Smite specifically allows a Dodge (but check the errata for the mechanics -- it no longer requires a roll). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:08:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Itty-Bitty Pistol At 4:44 AM -0800 11/7/99, Jace wrote: >Is this right? Or am I missing something, I'm afraid that I'm playing >something wrong and the holy pistols do a lot more damage that I suspect. IIRC, there's errata for Holy Pistols. (I really need to double-check and see if they're errata'ed to match what's in the Liber Reliquarum.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:08:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Campaigns At 12:05 PM -0700 11/7/99, EDG wrote: >At 05:29 PM 11/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >As far as an EPG goes... oddly enough, I don't see it on the survey list, >and I don't remember whether it was even included. It seems to be a >popular idea, though. It wasn't included. Neither were Superior books, IIRC. Make of that what you will. (Yes, I'm a sadist. Cope.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:18:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? At 11:32 PM -0800 11/7/99, Jo Hart wrote: >I'm not sure. I wonder if Yves' angels with the Divine destiny attunement: > >a) Can never use it on themselves Sure they can -- an angel's fate is to Fall. His destiny... is already achieved. (Alternately, one can suggest a vague ranking that the angel could aspire to -- such as Archangel, Word-bound, potent member of the [group of your choice], etc.) A demon's destiny is to redeem, his fate is to remain a demon (or go downwards, with Prince being the worst...). O:> >b) Have a strong taboo against ever directly telling anyone else what they >read from them Quite possibly. >Similarly I wonder if, if you see one Fate and work really hard to avoid >that (for selfish reasons, of course), whether you might still manage to hit >another one inadvertently if you keep acting in the same nasty way. A good reason to make fates vague... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:32:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? At 12:47 PM +0000 11/8/99, Warsinger wrote: >Given the lack of suggestions for what potential Destinies are actually >like Liber Servitorum, p. 126, with 24 sample destinies! (Also 26 fates, including, "write a program to help spam the Internet." Yes, spammers _can_ go to Hell...) [And, speaking of that, I'm working with some folks on the posters' list so that non-subscribed people can register and post...] >[...] there are already 2 >ways to get into Heaven as a Soldier of Hell, without having reached your >Destiny. ?? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:49:26 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? From: Elizabeth McCoy > > Yes, spammers _can_ go to Hell...) There are some that *don't*? ;p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:56:41 (CST) From: cybersavant@dlcwest.com Subject: IN> subscription info Hi. Due to program problems i've lost the subscription info for this list. Could someone please resend it to me? thanks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:12:54 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Campaigns Oh no! Does that means we aren't getting Pre-Colombus America? (Oh, the angst! How shall we cope?) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:10:40 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Weep for your children, for tonight they are mine. >Christopher, Demon Prince of Corruption [HUGE FREAKIN SNIP] >Sorry, Tim, but I thought the Word was far too appropriate not to use. :) I definetly agree, I like the write up. When I get my entire In-Nomine alternate universe (where Michael leads the Fall and most of the Superiors are on the oppisite side) written up in html and posted my I include this? (In it Novalis is the Princess of Thorns, which I wrote before Corruption for her but I didn't think it was appropriate from her modern place, but I'm rambling [ahhh essence] but for the sake of others I will stop). The biggest issue in flip flopping a Superior in the normal In-nomine setting is their post swith attitude which will be guided by how they came to switch sides and what their previous Word had to do with it. And btw Whistling in the Darkthe the Michael Demon of Bunnies thing is hysterical, but I think Lucifer might have the Word "Lucifer's Body Guard" waiting for a Fallen Michael. And while I'm combing responses into one email I'd like to clarify what I said about Destiny/Fate and selfishness. While people do do things to get into Heaven it seems that heaven lets in the selfless and that reaching one's Destiny would therefor involve choice that one would only make being selfless. While this does mean one could get to their Destiny selfishly (by conciously understanding this) it might. But fufilling your Destiny might involve going to hell voulentarily (like in "What Dreams May Come" for instance). However I'm sure that who ever suggested that Yves angels don't like reveiling a humans Destiny/Fate to them is right. It just isn't the same if someone is doing it for the final reward. Soldiers of God may know their are angels and demons and everything but they've never seen Heaven/Hell, and they can't be exactly sure about the criteria. But their doing the right thing and that's good enough (or that's my impression from Night Music and the CPG). Finally consider this, Dominic gives angels a tough enough time about their right to be in Heaven. Imagine some human worms their way in, I'm sure that he would like to have a talk to that guy about how exactly they knew how to get into heaven and then he'd be likely to talk to the angel responsible. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:57:44 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Itty-Bitty Pistol Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 4:44 AM -0800 11/7/99, Jace wrote: > >Is this right? Or am I missing something, I'm afraid that I'm playing > >something wrong and the holy pistols do a lot more damage that I suspect. > > IIRC, there's errata for Holy Pistols. (I really need to double-check > and see if they're errata'ed to match what's in the Liber Reliquarum.) No, you did the math right, I believe. This is where creative license and the game stats sometimes part ways. A Holy Pistol/1 would have a hard time whacking even a weak celestial. The way she treasured it, I would think that it should've been at least a 3. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for Data General + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:19:29 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR > > > Blandine, Demon Princess of Despair > > > > I'm not sure I can peg how "Despair" is a narrow-minded facet of "Dreams". > > Dreams embody the hopes of the dreamer. Despair seems a most natural > flipside for that, since Nightmares is already taken. Fallen Angels do not get the flipside of the word. Lust is not the flipside of Love. It's just a narrow, dark facet of it. Nightmares are not the flipside of Fear. They are just the narrow, dark facet of it. Dark Humor is not the flipside of Laughter. It's just the narrow, dark facet of it. Etc. Otherwise, Andrealphus would be the Demon Prince of Hate, Beleth would be the Demon Princess of Fearlessness, Kobal would be the Demon Prince of Tears. In special cases, this is changed. Belial got Fire, which is what he served before the fall. He still didn't get the inverse/flipside/reverse of Fire. Baal got the War, which could be construed as a narrow aspect of Valor, his previous Word. Asmodeus, whose word was Dominic's (Judgement), is still in charge of Judgement... just a narrow, darker facet of it. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:21:12 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors switching Sides > That makes stunningly good sense, and is the first really decent > explanation of the attitude of other Superiors towards Marc I've > heard. Even if that's not what you meant. > > What if Marc hit the edge of Falling in the era of the Robber Barons? > And while he's secure now, the other Archangels -- especially David > -- just aren't sure about him yet? In any case, it certainly gives you Marc's Fallen Word. He doesn't need to supplant the Demon Prince of Greed. He could become the Demon Prince of Capitalism. Like Lilith's Freedom, when pushed too far, it's an evil word. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:39:53 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR At 2:19 PM -0700 11/8/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > > > > Blandine, Demon Princess of Despair > > > > > > I'm not sure I can peg how "Despair" is a narrow-minded facet of >"Dreams". > > > > Dreams embody the hopes of the dreamer. Despair seems a most natural > > flipside for that, since Nightmares is already taken. > >Fallen Angels do not get the flipside of the word. Well, they can. They don't have a promised Word for falling. The reason for their Fall may be reflected in their new Word, or it may not. It may be a facet, an Antonym, or "Bunnies." >In special cases, this is changed. Belial got Fire, which is what he served >before the fall. He still didn't get the inverse/flipside/reverse of Fire. >Baal got the War, which could be construed as a narrow aspect of Valor, his >previous Word. See... the way I see it, every last stinkin' Word the First of the Fallen gives is a "Special Case." He gives Words by fiat, and he keeps his own counsel. It made sense to give Beleth Nightmares -- not because it was a facet of Fear but because it matched her personality *and* served his purposes -- it set her against Blandine directly, which was both a psychological ploy and a way to restrict the power of a powerful Archangel. By the same token, "Despair" makes sense, because it both shatters what remains of Dreams (and Hope, which is within the heart of Dreams) and it keeps Blandine from ever, *ever* crawling out of her pit and looking to Heaven again. Furthermore, the psychological point is tremendous -- Dreams have fallen into Despair, and the Hope of Heaven is now in a small room of Nightmares, staring at a wall. What hope does Humanity have of Destiny now? Point, Set and very possibly Match, Lucifer. Blandine lost Hope, and had no strength for Dreams. She Despaired. >Asmodeus, whose word was Dominic's (Judgement), is still in charge of >Judgement... just a narrow, darker facet of it. > >Ben - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:44:55 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Superiors switching Sides >In any case, it certainly gives you Marc's Fallen Word. He doesn't need to >supplant the Demon Prince of Greed. He could become the Demon Prince of >Capitalism. Like Lilith's Freedom, when pushed too far, it's an evil word. I could also see him as the Demon Prince of Fruad (it all depends on how he Falls). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:49:19 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR From: Ben Glickler > > > > Blandine, Demon Princess of Despair > > > > > > I'm not sure I can peg how "Despair" is a narrow-minded facet of > "Dreams". > > > > Dreams embody the hopes of the dreamer. Despair seems a most natural > > flipside for that, since Nightmares is already taken. > > Fallen Angels do not get the flipside of the word. It all depends on how you choose to define "flipside," really. Princes > Lust is not the flipside of Love. It's just a narrow, dark facet of it. > Nightmares are not the flipside of Fear. They are just the narrow, dark > facet of it. > Dark Humor is not the flipside of Laughter. It's just the narrow, dark > facet of it. > > Etc. Otherwise, Andrealphus would be the Demon Prince of Hate, Beleth would > be the Demon Princess of Fearlessness, Kobal would be the Demon Prince of > Tears. Only if you decide that "flipside" can only mean the polar opposite of a Word. I agree that each DP has a Word that represents a darker and narrower part of the Word they originally served. But each of their Words is oriented away from what they originally served. Caring is a part of love, and Lust is the opposite of caring. Humor involves raising the spirits of others, while Dark Humor centers on tearing down the spirits of those you mock. Fear involves showing others that which frightens them in order to make them grow stronger, while Nightmares hammers at the fears of others to make them feel more weak. > In special cases, this is changed. Belial got Fire, which is what he served > before the fall. He still didn't get the inverse/flipside/reverse of Fire. Belial once served the Fire that inspires, and now he is the Fire that destroys. > Baal got the War, which could be construed as a narrow aspect of Valor, his > previous Word. Baal now represents the War against Heaven. > Asmodeus, whose word was Dominic's (Judgement), is still in charge of > Judgement... just a narrow, darker facet of it. Asmodeus now stands for trapping others within the webs of the Game, not in using Judgement to guide them to improve themselves. While I will admit it was more a verbal shortcut than anything else, I still think that "flipside" wasa valid term in this context. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:29:06 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Ben Glickler wrote: > > JORDI > > Shedite Prince of Genocide > > I was going to complain about the word -- it's the only thing one can > legitimately complain about in your terrific writeup -- and then I thought > that Genocide, while not necessarily a facet of "Animals", literally or > metaphorically, is definately a facet of Jordi's attitude. I was thinking about this for a bit... You know, I think the right Word might be "Extermination". Includes genocide and non-accidental extinction, while still retaining a certain... savage simplicity. > I'd prefer "Beasts" (confers a darker sort of animal) or "Savagery" (Fox: > When Fallen Angels Attack!) Snicker. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:38:32 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... >From: Douglas Muir > >I was thinking about this for a bit... You know, I think the right Word >might be "Extermination". > Jordi, Demon Prince of Daleks... jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:56:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? At 12:49 PM -0600 11/8/99, Prodigal wrote: >From: Elizabeth McCoy >> >> Yes, spammers _can_ go to Hell...) > >There are some that *don't*? ;p CDaU. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:01:05 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR >>Fallen Angels do not get the flipside of the word. This reminds me of something I noticed about when angels fall in general, they really don't become polar oppsites. They seem to pevert not invert, instead of detecting something they alter that something. Balseraphs still resonate with truth, but they make the truth. Habalah still resonate with emotion but they make the emotion. Impudites still resonate with personal connections buy they make those connections. Anyway that's just something that I noticed about angel to demon (and I'd assume that if a Malakite ever Fell its resonance would be for imposing Honor). Which would indicate Lucifer is probably more likely to give out a twisted version of an Angels former Word rather than a direct reversal, or he may even give their origional Word to them and leave it to the demon to interpret it in a new less heavinly way. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:52:05 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Tyger Tyger, Burning Bright.... At 2:38 PM -0800 11/8/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Douglas Muir >> >>I was thinking about this for a bit... You know, I think the right Word >>might be "Extermination". >> > > >Jordi, Demon Prince of Daleks... _Shedim_ The Prince of Daleks grants his Shedim the ability to possess salt shakers, pepper pots, or other forms of condiment container that are essentially symmetrical. While Hunt's Squeeze Catsup Bottles are not legal, Heinz Ketchup Bottles are, for example. There is no time limit to the time the Shedite can possess these containers, nor is there a size limit. If a Shedite can find a ten foot tall armor plated pepperpot, power to them. DISSONANCE Servitors of Daleks receive dissonance whenever they climb stairs. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:50:56 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? From: Santiago > I tend to > think that the people that'll disagree with the logic in the first > paragraph are probably many of the same who claim an AI could never > have Celestial forces, because it's not truly "alive" (whatever that > means) or "has no soul".) that's very perceptive of you :) AFAIC in nomine is the sort of game where "the ends justify the means" doesn't work. it's generally that kind of attitude that leads to angels falling. on another note, i'd suspect that a person's destiny or fate would *take into account* the fact that they discover what their D & F are. i'm not sure fear of hell could drive you to your destiny, but i could see it keeping you from your fate. i suppose a lot of this depends on how you imagine people's D&Fs being, whether they're scaled on personal or "human-wide" levels. in other words, are people more likely to have destinies like "invent the cure for cancer" or "save the whales" than "be a really nice guy" or "raise a happy family"? liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:40:48 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Weep for your children From: Tim Groth > But fufilling your Destiny > might involve going to hell voulentarily please explain liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 17:12:00 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > > On the other hand, if Michael ever Falls, Lucifer will remember what > > Michael was and what Michael did to him, and react accordingly. > > > > "I'm the Demon Prince of *Bunnies?*" > > Though I do like the "Bunnies" idea. The threat of *that* ought > to help keep Mikey on the straight and narrow. Oh I dunno, if I know Michael, he'd be able to make "bunnies" something to fear and respect. Maybe get a elite military unit to become "The Bunnies" (hey, it worked for -seals-, didn't it?). Then urge real bunnies to be seen as vicious survivalists. In Australia, they're killed like crazy, and still survive. I'm sure Kobal would help... - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1397 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.