From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Nov 8 23:37:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05743 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:37:23 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA08613 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:37:24 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:37:24 -0600 Message-Id: <199911090537.XAA08613@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1398 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, November 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1398 In this digest: Re: IN> Weep for your children IN> Marc IN> Marc Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR IN> Changing Choirs Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR IN> Vessels IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Changing Choirs IN> Taking a Climb Re: IN> Vessels Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Taking a Climb IN> The Demon Prince of Bunnies Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR Re: IN> Vessels Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Changing Choirs Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Vessels IN> Cry Havoc! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:11:42 -0600 (EST) From: edg@pyramid.sjgames.com Subject: Re: IN> Weep for your children On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Liam wrote: > > But fufilling your Destiny > > might involve going to hell voulentarily > please explain Off the top of my head, and taking the quote as-is (that is, out of the context of the original post), I can think of three angelic Destinies that involve going to Hell voluntarily. The first involves the Angels of Final Judgment. Surely their Destinies involve being in Hell, and almost certainly they volunteered for the position. The second involves an angel going out in a blaze of glory, heading to Hell and taking out as much as possible before the Horde cuts him down. The third involves an angel who Falls and becomes one of Hell's trusted. Come Armageddon, the ex-angel recognizes the error of his ways and delivers vital information to Heaven, at the same time asking for but not expecting Redemption. Cheers, EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:57:03 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Marc >>>Here's somthing to think about here. Between Microsoft's monpoly. Flase advertising rampant. etc, etc. It's safe to assume that modern Buisness ain't fair. Ergo, Marc would probaly be a good canidate for a Fall.<<< One thing I REALLY hope is brought out in Marc's expanded writeup is that he is NOT the Archangel of Capitalism. Modern business doesn't reflect Marc's Word any better than the American legal system reflects Dominic's. It'll surely make some people scream to see Marc also supporting such economic systems as communism and socialism, but I'm sure he would. They ALL fall under Trade, and like capitalism, are only as good or as bad as their implementation. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:57:03 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Marc >>>Here's somthing to think about here. Between Microsoft's monpoly. Flase advertising rampant. etc, etc. It's safe to assume that modern Buisness ain't fair. Ergo, Marc would probaly be a good canidate for a Fall.<<< One thing I REALLY hope is brought out in Marc's expanded writeup is that he is NOT the Archangel of Capitalism. Modern business doesn't reflect Marc's Word any better than the American legal system reflects Dominic's. It'll surely make some people scream to see Marc also supporting such economic systems as communism and socialism, but I'm sure he would. They ALL fall under Trade, and like capitalism, are only as good or as bad as their implementation. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:17:14 -0500 From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR A > Oh I dunno, if I know Michael, he'd be able to make "bunnies" >something to fear and respect. Maybe get a elite military unit to become >"The Bunnies" (hey, it worked for -seals-, didn't it?). Then urge real >bunnies to be seen as vicious survivalists. In Australia, they're killed >like crazy, and still survive. I'm sure Kobal would help... > >- Abracax: Shedite of Riots > > There's always the term "gun bunnies" :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:19:37 -0500 From: Mason Kramer Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR >> Though I do like the "Bunnies" idea. The threat of *that* ought >> to help keep Mikey on the straight and narrow. > > Oh I dunno, if I know Michael, he'd be able to make "bunnies" > something to fear and respect. Maybe get a elite military unit to become > "The Bunnies" (hey, it worked for -seals-, didn't it?). Then urge real > bunnies to be seen as vicious survivalists. In Australia, they're killed > like crazy, and still survive. I'm sure Kobal would help... And he may find inspiration in the works of Monty Python.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 12:32:12 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR - ---------- > > Etc. Otherwise, Andrealphus would be the Demon Prince of Hate, Beleth > would > > be the Demon Princess of Fearlessness, Kobal would be the Demon Prince of > > Tears. > > Only if you decide that "flipside" can only mean the polar opposite of a > Word. I agree that each DP has a Word that represents a darker and narrower > part of the Word they originally served. But each of their Words is oriented > away from what they originally served. > > Caring is a part of love, and Lust is the opposite of caring. We've already spoken about this, but I think that it is relavent. Lust is not the flipside of love, it is not the opposite of caring, It is the physical desire for carnal knowledge. Caring and loving someone will go hand in hand with lusting after them. The dissonance conditions of Lusties do not reflect the meaning of the word, they reflect Andre's personality. Azrael "RAGE!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 12:48:47 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Changing Choirs I'm not sure if this will end up being wrong, pro'lly is, but waddaya do? Changing Choirs The only time that I know of celestials changing Choirs/Bands is Seraphim to Malakim, so bearing this in mind, Here goes: Malakim <=> Seraphim Because their resonances involve sensing truths. Cherubim <=> Ofanim Because their resonances involve sensing patterns in the Symphony. Elohim <=>Mercurians They concern themselves with intangible concepts relating to humans. Course would be rather uncomfortable for the Elo, not to mention real hard. Kyriotates <=> Grigori 'Cos that's all that's left. Now changing bands is a whole nother kettle o' fish, and I have no idea. Azrael "RAGE!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:36:59 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR At 5:12 PM -0800 11/9/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > > > > On the other hand, if Michael ever Falls, Lucifer will remember what > > > Michael was and what Michael did to him, and react accordingly. > > > > > > "I'm the Demon Prince of *Bunnies?*" > > > > Though I do like the "Bunnies" idea. The threat of *that* ought > > to help keep Mikey on the straight and narrow. > > Oh I dunno, if I know Michael, he'd be able to make "bunnies" >something to fear and respect. Maybe get a elite military unit to become >"The Bunnies" (hey, it worked for -seals-, didn't it?). Then urge real >bunnies to be seen as vicious survivalists. In Australia, they're killed >like crazy, and still survive. I'm sure Kobal would help... I fear the Lilim of Bunnies. I really do. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 12:53:30 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Vessels Do vessels leave fingerprints? Do vessels pores produce oil? Do vessels' have DNA? If so is it all the same? Or is it all the same for the one celestial? Or the one Superior? Is the DNA in the same form as humans? Do they have the same # chromosomes? Do they reflect photons? Are they chemically identical to a normal human? Are they also approx 80% water? (That number fluctuates btwix various sources) Are the affected by the flu' and other virus'? Azrael "RAGE!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 13:03:53 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Destiny? Say for example, a vagrant's destiny is to give another a small amount of money (but all he has), with which the 2nd vagrant will buy a lottery ticket, which will win. Using the money the 2nd vagrant creates a shelter thingee for anyone in need. His fate is to keep the money and use it to buy some cheap wine, get drunk and pass out. However, somehow the 1st vagrant finds out his fate and destiny, he also finds out their ramification i.e. he goes to hell, he goes to heaven. He decides that not going to hell is more enjoyable than some bad wine and better for him (selfish...naughty naughty), so he gives 2nd vagrant the money. Does hne go to heaven? Don't ask how he found out, that isn't important. Perhaps he was in a library during a storm, accidentally stumbled across the Book of All Knowledge (which Yves had put down and can't remember where) and read it. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:13:21 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR In a message dated 11/8/99 8:23:13 PM Central Standard Time, nexus@qx.net writes: << A > Oh I dunno, if I know Michael, he'd be able to make "bunnies" >something to fear and respect. Maybe get a elite military unit to become >"The Bunnies" (hey, it worked for -seals-, didn't it?). Then urge real >bunnies to be seen as vicious survivalists. In Australia, they're killed >like crazy, and still survive. I'm sure Kobal would help... > >- Abracax: Shedite of Riots > > There's always the term "gun bunnies" :) >> Heh heh heh. Cool. (I'm a gun bunny in the National Guard. ) Rev. B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:16:10 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Changing Choirs >I'm not sure if this will end up being wrong, pro'lly is, but waddaya do? > >Changing Choirs > >The only time that I know of celestials changing Choirs/Bands is Seraphim >to Malakim, >so bearing this in mind [snip] Actually David was a Cherub before becoming a Malakite. As I've been yelled at for in canon their is no way to change choirs. The only exception was when the Malakim were created and God took any voulenteers for that change (or something to that effect). However about changing bands: "Really off-the-wall requiests...'Please make me a Calabite... will intrique Lucifer; he may or may not grant them" (Night Music page 116) This would seem to imply it is within Lucifer's power to change the Band of a demon. Choirs are pretty much set, God changed shifted things around once but under very special circumstances. Lucifer doesn't seem to do it unless thats your request when you first meet him. So their is a mechanism to switching around those things without taking appart the celestial and then putting them back together. However it seems to be at Intervention level of power, and only God/Lucifer can Intervene so unless an angel asks God for a choir switch and it gets granted somehow it ain't happing (in canon at least). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 99 13:17:46 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Taking a Climb Of course if Ralph the Prince of Apathy redeemed he'd get tolerance. One day Ralph redeemed, no one knows how or why, the only way your can tell is he is now in heaven. His abode in heaven is a rock in David's realm. It is now his Rock of Tolerance. David and the Stonies don't know anything about him; they think he's in Trauma but upon seeing him decided they liked him, and they couldn't help doing things like drawing on his face, he just seems to scream do funny things to me I don't mind. Rites Not do anything. Tolerate everything. Dissonace Do something. Be intolerent. He doesn't have any servitors thus no attunemets. He simply tolerates having no power, the war and demons. Relations. Allied: No one. Associated: No one. Nue...Tolerates: Everyone Hostile: No one. David likes him he has become something of a mascot for the Stonies. Dominic considers him Blasphemous. No one else even know he is now an AA. If any of the more militant AA's find out they will take Dom's view. Azrael "RAGE!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:28:10 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Vessels >Do vessels leave fingerprints? I would say if they have a Role they do, especially if its a Role of a proffesion where your finger prints are on file. >Do vessels pores produce oil? Yes otherwise they'd be might strange. >Do vessels' have DNA? If so is it all the same? Or is it all the same for >the one celestial? Or the one Superior? Hmmm, thats a tough one, I'd say that they would have the genetics that such a body would imply and thus let them pass blood tests for being human. But again it may only be for those that have Roles. >Is the DNA in the same form as humans? Again probably (I'd imagine that a child of a celestial produced by the song of fruition would inherit some of the vessel's features). >Do they have the same # chromosomes? If they have DNA >Do they reflect photons? Vessels yes, celstial forms no. >Are they chemically identical to a normal human? Yup. Except their sterile when song of fruition isn't being used. >Are they also approx 80% water? (That number fluctuates btwix various sources) Yup >Are the affected by the flu' and other virus'? Nope. Though they could probably carry hardier diseases on their skin, maybe even inside of them, they are still mystical. A vessel mimics a natural body as closely as it can (even to the point of having belly buttons as the core book points out). Some details may be tied into a Role, or they may just be standerd issue. Since Roles cover things like identity I'd connect it with finger prints, or if all vessels have finger prints then they are probably very generalized finger prints (in other Words they have less features than normal). A dog vessel would seem like a dog, to the point where if it was vivisected alive by some sick kid their would be no difference (except for the dog being sterile). On the cellular level they look like normal, but they don't require food. They have systems for digestion and the food would most likely just vanish. What animates a vessel seems to be the essence used to create it, perhaps all vessels are very specific artifacts or something. They are ment to mimic life, and they do it perfectly. I'd imagine a sample of a vessel's cells would seem real, even pretending to eat and everything. Which is why the essence cost for vessels is rather high, their complicated little gizmos. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:42:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > > > "I'm the Demon Prince of *Bunnies?*" > > Oh I dunno, if I know Michael, he'd be able to make "bunnies" > something to fear and respect. Maybe get a elite military unit to become > "The Bunnies" (hey, it worked for -seals-, didn't it?). Then urge real > bunnies to be seen as vicious survivalists. In Australia, they're killed > like crazy, and still survive. I'm sure Kobal would help... MICHAEL, DEMON PRINCE OF BUNNIES RELATIONS Michael is rather new on the Hellish scene, and has not established many new ties. Most reactions to him are based on old prejudices, and even his new Word has not allayed those fears. But he has gained some new allies... Allied: Kobal Associated: Baal, Belial Neutral: Just about everyone else Hostile: Asmodeus, Kronos (old reflexes die hard) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:45:43 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? >Say for example, a vagrant's destiny is to give another a small amount of >money >(but all he has), with which the 2nd vagrant will buy a lottery ticket, >which will win. >Using the money the 2nd vagrant creates a shelter thingee for anyone in need. > >His fate is to keep the money and use it to buy some cheap wine, get drunk and >pass out. > >However, somehow the 1st vagrant finds out his fate and destiny, he also >finds out >their ramification i.e. he goes to hell, he goes to heaven. > >He decides that not going to hell is more enjoyable than some bad wine and >better >for him (selfish...naughty naughty), so he gives 2nd vagrant the money. > >Does hne go to heaven? > >Don't ask how he found out, that isn't important. Perhaps he was in a >library during >a storm, accidentally stumbled across the Book of All Knowledge (which >Yves had put >down and can't remember where) and read it. But it is important, because at this point you get to a situation that is utterly ridiculous and one has to ask, "Even if he does find out why does he believe it?" and no one say because the Book of All Knowledge makes you know its the truth. However I'm avoiding doing homework, so I'm going to think up an answer to the situation. He did good, but for the wrong reason so I think he'll get reincarnated, not go to Hell but not worthy for Heaven. Their is an excellent British movie where Lucifer has accumulated enough souls to reenter heaven (basicly Lucifer and God had a compition about who could get to some number of souls first, I think it was a billion, but that's not important). Since he has more than enough souls he gives one of his most recent aquisitions their soul back, cause it makes him feel good, just like old times when he was serving God. He isn't allowed back into heaven because he did good to feel good, not because it was the right thing. Basically people who do the right thing because its the right thing are what Heaven wants. These folk are more likely to reach their Destiny (barring of course the Book of All Knowledge That Everyone Knows to be True by the Nifty Lettering and Stuff) and thus get into Heaven. Where as those who don't do things that way might reach their Destiny by a technicality but I doubt a technicality is enough to get you into Heaven (Dominic doesn't let angels get off on a technicality, Asmodeus condemns demons on them). So if your a selfish schmuck who somehow reaches his Destiny without being one actually selfless thing in your entire life (while managing to avoid accomplishing your Fate also) you probably won't be let into Heaven, you'll get another try. However, in response to the specific situation and others like it, their is the added insentive that he's doing good. So if vagrant #1 figures, "Hmm he'll make a shelter and I won't go to Hell, that's really really good." maybe they'd be a bit more lenient. In which case it becomes a lot like the Andre's dissonance condition where you have to trust the player to tell you the motivation of the character (or if your the GM to assign it) and thus make the final decision. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:56:55 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR At 10:42 PM -0400 11/8/99, Richard Gant wrote: >On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > > > > > "I'm the Demon Prince of *Bunnies?*" > > > > Oh I dunno, if I know Michael, he'd be able to make "bunnies" > > something to fear and respect. Maybe get a elite military unit to become > > "The Bunnies" (hey, it worked for -seals-, didn't it?). Then urge real > > bunnies to be seen as vicious survivalists. In Australia, they're killed > > like crazy, and still survive. I'm sure Kobal would help... > >MICHAEL, DEMON PRINCE OF BUNNIES > >RELATIONS > Michael is rather new on the Hellish scene, and has not established >many new ties. Most reactions to him are based on old prejudices, and >even his new Word has not allayed those fears. But he has gained some new >allies... > Allied: Kobal > Associated: Baal, Belial > Neutral: Just about everyone else > Hostile: Asmodeus, Kronos (old reflexes die hard) Oh come. Andrealphus would be Associated with the Demon Prince of Bunnies at the *least.* - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 23:41:02 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Taking a Climb hehehehehehehehhehehehehehehehehehehehehe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:44:08 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: IN> The Demon Prince of Bunnies On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > > > Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > > > > On the other hand, if Michael ever Falls, Lucifer will remember what > > > Michael was and what Michael did to him, and react accordingly. > > > > > > "I'm the Demon Prince of *Bunnies?*" > > > > Though I do like the "Bunnies" idea. The threat of *that* ought > > to help keep Mikey on the straight and narrow. > > Oh I dunno, if I know Michael, he'd be able to make "bunnies" > something to fear and respect. Sluggy Freelance. Sluggy Freelance. Lucifer: So, Michael, we meet again. But this time, I am the master. You are now the Demon Prince of Bunnies. Michael: Indeed. [Trades his axe for a switchblade] [*KA-CLICK*] Time to die, nerd-boy! ["poings" at Lucifer and commences massive combat] Worship the comic. (Since Sluggy Freelance's tagline is "Worship the Comic," does it have a presence in the Marches? What do its Dream Soldiers get?) (Prepares to get slapped) -- Michael Martin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:46:37 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR - ----- Original Message ----- From: Azrael > > > > Caring is a part of love, and Lust is the opposite of caring. > > > We've already spoken about this, but I think that it is relavent. > Lust is not the flipside of love, it is not the opposite of caring, I disagree. When you love someone you care about them, do you not? (I, at least, fail to see how love can exist without caring.) Lust involves placing your own pleasure above all else. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:11:48 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Azrael wrote: > Do vessels leave fingerprints? Yes. It's required for certain roles. > Do vessels pores produce oil? The natural amount of oil, I'm sure, otherwise their skin would dry up. > Do vessels' have DNA? If so is it all the same? Or is it all the same > for the one celestial? Or the one Superior? > Is the DNA in the same form as humans? > Do they have the same # chromosomes? All CDaU, unless I'm mistaken. > Do they reflect photons? Doesn't everything? > Are they chemically identical to a normal human? > Are they also approx 80% water? (That number fluctuates btwix various sources) Yes. Their vessels are indistinguishable from a normal human. > Are the affected by the flu' and other virus'? Nope. Vessels don't get sick. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! GET SOME SLACK, CREATE SOME SLACK, OR DIE THESE ARE YOUR *ONLY* CHOICES -- St. Bubba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:57:47 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? >AFAIC in nomine is the sort of game where "the ends justify the means" >doesn't work. it's generally that kind of attitude that leads to angels >falling. Right, but if you look at my original message, I said that this is a case of the means justifying the ends, not the other way around. It's a person who's doing all the right things (helping others and fulfilling their fate) because of a very selfish reason (they prefer going to Heaven instead of Hell). - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:04:43 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Changing Choirs At 15:48 -0500 11/9/99, Azrael wrote: >I'm not sure if this will end up being wrong, pro'lly is, but waddaya do? > >Changing Choirs > >The only time that I know of celestials changing Choirs/Bands is Seraphim to Malakim, Nope. Angels of all Choirs were changed into Malakim at the time of the Fall, by God's Own Hand. That's apparently the only way it can happen in canon, short of total deconstruction of the Forces involved. The only examples specifically mentioned in canon are both Superiors, with a Cherub and a Seraph represented, I believe (David and Uriel). But that doesn't mean there was any restriction on the conversion. I would expect very few Elohim to have been changed -- the change seemed to depend partly on a sense of outrage and a desire to do something about it. Such an outburst seems uncharacteristic of Elohim, to me. Presumably Lucifer, were he so inclined, might be able to mimic God's feat by switching the Bands of demons, though the only canon reference to that is the one offhand comment about boons from Lucifer that someone else already quoted. Even then, it's not clear he could make someone into a Lilim (or create one from scratch); that may require Lilith's human nature. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:16:17 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? >However I'm avoiding doing homework, so I'm going to think up an answer to >the situation. He did good, but for the wrong reason so I think he'll get >reincarnated, not go to Hell but not worthy for Heaven. Their is an >excellent British movie where Lucifer has accumulated enough souls to >reenter heaven (basicly Lucifer and God had a compition about who could get >to some number of souls first, I think it was a billion, but that's not >important). Since he has more than enough souls he gives one of his most >recent aquisitions their soul back, cause it makes him feel good, just like >old times when he was serving God. He isn't allowed back into heaven >because he did good to feel good, not because it was the right thing. >Basically people who do the right thing because its the right thing are >what Heaven wants. > >Timothy, Angel of Rambling But, even people that do things because "they're the right thing to do" do so because they prefer feeling good about themselves by having done what they felt was right to the guilt they'd feel from doing something wrong. Thus, it's still a selfish action, just one that helps others as well as one's self. This is in opposition to demonic selfishness, which is really just not caring about what's right and not deriving any benefits in general from helping others, and then acting to maximize these returns. - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:32:03 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vessels At 15:53 -0500 11/9/99, Azrael wrote: >Do vessels leave fingerprints? >Do vessels pores produce oil? >Do vessels' have DNA? If so is it all the same? Or is it all the same for the one celestial? Or the one Superior? >Is the DNA in the same form as humans? >Do they have the same # chromosomes? >Are they chemically identical to a normal human? >Are they also approx 80% water? (That number fluctuates btwix various sources) Most of the above is covered in the GMG (soon to be at a store near you) on p. 18. The quick answer is that normal vessels are pretty much indistinguishable from normal humans (or animals), and will match real humans for the purposes of most scientific tests. Since celestials do not require food or drink, heal abnormally fast, and are sterile, there are *some* distinguishing medical features, but these aren't totally certain indicators that someone is celestial or not, since celestials *can* process food and drink normally in vessels (including the need to excrete). A *very* careful examination of their cellular biochemistry in action (say, an MRI, or radioisotope tracers) might look weird, since they are apparently sustained at the cellular level or below by Symphonic energies, not the usual glucose-powered cellular energy cycles. This might also show up in something like a basal metabolism test. Or then again, it might not -- it appears celestials can voluntarily mimic some properties of corporeal metabolism that they aren't *required* to do. So they can probably sweat during a workout (even though they don't have to generate extra heat from exertion), or actually appear to have a normal O2/CO2 balance in the lungs (though there's no reason for them to generate CO2 if they don't metabolize organic compounds for energy). The way I view vessels, they're copies of specific Symphonic themes representing the corporeal Forces of the species (or even individuals) being copied. Thus, they possess all the normal complexities of these corporeal objects, *except* that they can draw energy directly from the Symphony, and all that cellular chemistry may be "frozen" in a snapshot that doesn't change unless the celestial wishes it. (This may explain why celestials are sterile -- the special cellular division processes that produce gametes *simply don't happen* in vessels.) The accelerated healing of vessels likewise could be a manifestation of repairing the Symphonic theme of the vessel directly, rather than letting all that cumbersome cellular machinery do the job. >Do they reflect photons? Yes -- they're perfectly normal corporeal objects, while manifested. >Are the affected by the flu' and other virus'? Not normally, no. Again, the "snapshot" model of vessels explains this neatly -- most of the mechanisms of disease wouldn't work terribly well on vessels, since the biochemistry that the disease mechanism requires is operating. This is pretty clear for virus diseases; bacterial diseases may be slightly harder to explain, since there may be food for bacteria within a vessel. However, it may be that the "frozen" state of the cellular chemistry in a vessel would also affect any bacterial invaders. True parasites might be able to invade and do harm, but might not be able to grow or reproduce while inside a vessel. So you could get a vessel with tapeworms, and mosquito bites will still be annoying. Note that the "snapshot" model of vessels is *not* canon, but is consistent with it, if you want a mostly-scientific model for how vessels work. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:35:55 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> Cry Havoc! - --------------C53CE33A33999CAB352A3647 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, Demon Prince of Wrath The world is enraged, vicious and out to hurt you. The best way to get even, is to get mad. It was going so well at first. He had defeated Lucifer, that hyena, Dominic, had had his investigation pulled out from under him by God Himself, and the War was proceeding apace. Then Uriel went insane and hurt Blandine and Jordi terribly, then Khalid was passed over for some fledgling Malakite who always needed to have his wings pulled out of the fire. That was fine, because the War was going well. But that didn't last. What did they expect from him? He couldn't fight the War by himself, always propping Laurence up, having to watch Dominic all the time, watching the miserable humans for whose benefit this was all for, piss away chance after chance to improve their own situation and beat back the Diabolicals. Concentrated efforts always seemed to fall apart, while the hordes of demons grew in power. The final straw came when an Inquisition was called concerning the state of the War. That was enough, Michael lost his temper and blamed the Seraphim council and Heavenly politics for the stagnation of the War's effort and stormed off. Inwardly, he blamed Laurence's incompetence, Dominic's paranoia, Blandine's idealism, Novalis's complacency, and Yves's damn refusal to tell what he knew. But he really blamed himself, but he denied it...and this Dissonant circle continued until one day, Michael found himself unable to Ascend. He knew...but his new Balseraphic nature let him change that point of view. This was better, he told himself, it was time to finish things up, one way or the other. Driven by a massive feeling of betrayal, Michael's arrival in Hell was met with reactions from abject terror to bravery bordering on insanity. Furfur was one of the first Michael destroyed as the Prince of Hardcore overextended himself, Belial was trounced, and managed to escape, umerous lesser demons were Disbanded, but then it came down to Baal...Before that battle could begin, Lucifer himself confronted Michael, harsh memories on both sides. The Lightbringer decided to offer Michael a place in Hell, a gamble, considering that no one knew for sure if Lucifer could beat Michael this time out. But they had both been betrayed by Heaven, hadn't they? Hell held its collective breath as they waited for Michael's answer. His cold acquiescence resounded throughout Hell, and Lucifer finally filled one of the most prominant vacancies among the Princes. The new Prince of Wrath isn't just about rampant anger, but also the cold fury that drives someone to lash out, subtly or otherwise, again and again and again, until everyone else is angry or in pain. His intelligence and subtlety lend his far-reaching Word terrifying power, power the other Princes do not often trifle with. Not many of his Servitors followed him in his Fall, but he gained a vast new army in Hell as demons flocked under his banner. Heaven sorrows and fears, for the War has taken a dark turn, indeed. DISSONANCE It is Dissonant for any Servitor of Wrath to do anything to quell anger when it arises in another being. It can be increased, twisted, or redirected, but it must never be calmed. This includes taking any action that would calm a foe, such as retreating from a fight. BAND ATTUNEMENTS BALSERAPHS Michael's Balseraphs can double their Celestial Forces on any Resonance attempt to induce anger against another being or single institution in their target. DJINN Djinn of Wrath can automatically detect when a being they are attuned to is experiencing anger (justified or not) and at what or whom. CALABIM Michael enjoys a sizable number of Calabim in his ranks. In addition to being able to add their Corporeal Forces to any Resonance Roll, all Calabim of Wrath must start with at least two levels of the Angry Discord. HABBALAH Rather than the check digit of a successful Resonance roll to produce Fury in a target being the number of minutes the victim must lash out at a target, Michael's Haballah measure it in a number of hours equal to the check digit. LILIM Lilim of Wrath are more common than one might think. Whenever their target is in a state of anger (GM's call), they receive +1 to the level of any Geas they can inflict in this time. Many a poor fool has bargained away more than was wise while blinded by anger. SHEDIM Michael's Shedim can automatically enter any host who is experiencing anger without having to make a Resonance roll. They still must roll to corrupt their hosts and still produce a Disturbance upon possession unless 'oozing' (see IPG). IMPUDITES Few Impudites serve the Word of Wrath, angry people are too unpredictable for most Takers But for those who do, they can tell exactly what will anger any victim they have Charmed. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS REDIRECT WRATH By spending one Essence and making a successful roll vs. the target's Will, a Servitor of Wrath with this Attunement can redirect any anger a target is feeling or harbours against a target of the user's choice, even in combat. This effect lasts for CD minutes. HOWL OF RAGE A holdover from his days as an Archangel, this Attunement lets Michael's Servitors scream with all the wrath and frustration in their tortured souls. It stuns all foes within a number of feet equal to the demon's Corporeal Forces on the next combat round. DISTINCTIONS KNIGHT OF ANGER Demons of this Rank can, at a glance, tell if a specific course of action will anger a specific person in their presence. CAPTAIN OF RAGE The demon can determine the most common object of anger among a group of up to a hundred humans. BARON OF WRATH A demon with this rank can, upon angering any target, human or Celestial, by any means (from a Resonance to a conversation) can augment this state so that any and all things around the target except the demon will anger the subject, usually leading to a destructive frenzy. The effect lasts for CD*the Demon's Celestial Forces rounds. RELATIONS Allied: Baal, Malphas Associated: Kronos, Valefor, Beleth Hostile: Kobal, Haagenti, Enemy: Asmodeus, Saminga BASIC RITES Reduce someone to a state of total rage. Create anger in someone against a person or group that that person did not formerly feel anger towards. Induce or setup a crime where the criminal commits the crime with wrath as a sole motivator (ie. cut someone off and trigger an attack of Road Rage that ends in a shooting). CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 1 INVOCATION MODIFIERS +1 Screaming in anger +2 A letter, written in anger +3 The scene of a crime motivated by anger +4 A weapon used to commit a crime of anger +5 Two hated (by each other) enemies engaged in battle, physical or strategic +6 A riot, motivated by anger - --------------C53CE33A33999CAB352A3647 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Michael, Demon Prince of Wrath

The world is enraged, vicious and out to hurt you. The best way to get even, is to get mad.

    It was going so well at first. He had defeated Lucifer, that hyena, Dominic, had had his investigation pulled out from under him by God Himself, and the War was proceeding apace. Then Uriel went insane and hurt Blandine and Jordi terribly, then Khalid was passed over for some fledgling Malakite who always needed to have his wings pulled out of the fire. That was fine, because the War was going well. But that didn't last. What did they expect from him? He couldn't fight the War by himself, always propping Laurence up, having to watch Dominic all the time, watching the miserable humans for whose benefit this was all for, piss away chance after chance to improve their own situation and beat back the Diabolicals. Concentrated efforts always seemed to fall apart, while the hordes of demons grew in power. The final straw came when an Inquisition was called concerning the state of the War. That was enough, Michael lost his temper and blamed the Seraphim council and Heavenly politics for the stagnation of the War's effort and stormed off. Inwardly, he blamed Laurence's incompetence, Dominic's paranoia, Blandine's idealism, Novalis's complacency, and Yves's damn refusal to tell what he knew. But he really blamed himself, but he denied it...and this Dissonant circle continued until one day, Michael found himself unable to Ascend.
    He knew...but his new Balseraphic nature let him change that point of view. This was better, he told himself, it was time to finish things up, one way or the other. Driven by a massive feeling of betrayal, Michael's arrival in Hell was met with reactions from abject terror to bravery bordering on insanity. Furfur was one of the first Michael destroyed as the Prince of Hardcore overextended himself, Belial was trounced, and managed to escape, umerous lesser demons were Disbanded, but then it came down to Baal...Before that battle could begin, Lucifer himself confronted Michael, harsh memories on both sides. The Lightbringer decided to offer Michael a place in Hell, a gamble, considering that no one knew for sure if Lucifer could beat Michael this time out. But they had both been betrayed by Heaven, hadn't they? Hell held its collective breath as they waited for Michael's answer. His cold acquiescence resounded throughout Hell, and Lucifer finally filled one of the most prominant vacancies among the Princes.
    The new Prince of Wrath isn't just about rampant anger, but also the cold fury that drives someone to lash out, subtly or otherwise, again and again and again, until everyone else is angry or in pain. His intelligence and subtlety lend his far-reaching Word terrifying power, power the other Princes do not often trifle with. Not many of his Servitors followed him in his Fall, but he gained a vast new army in Hell as demons flocked under his banner. Heaven sorrows and fears, for the War has taken a dark turn, indeed.

DISSONANCE
    It is Dissonant for any Servitor of Wrath to do anything to quell anger when it arises in another being. It can be increased, twisted, or redirected, but it must never be calmed. This includes taking any action that would calm a foe, such as retreating from a fight.

BAND ATTUNEMENTS

BALSERAPHS
    Michael's Balseraphs can double their Celestial Forces on any Resonance attempt to induce anger against another being or single institution in their target.

DJINN
    Djinn of Wrath can automatically detect when a being they are attuned to is experiencing anger (justified or not) and at what or whom.

CALABIM
    Michael enjoys a sizable number of Calabim in his ranks. In addition to being able to add their Corporeal Forces to any Resonance Roll, all Calabim of Wrath must start with at least two levels of the Angry Discord.

HABBALAH
    Rather than the check digit of a successful Resonance roll to produce Fury in a target being the number of minutes the victim must lash out at a target, Michael's Haballah measure it in a number of hours equal to the check digit.

LILIM
    Lilim of Wrath are more common than one might think. Whenever their target is in a state of anger (GM's call), they receive +1 to the level of any Geas they can inflict in this time. Many a poor fool has bargained away more than was wise while blinded by anger.

SHEDIM
    Michael's Shedim can automatically enter any host who is experiencing anger without having to make a Resonance roll. They still must roll to corrupt their hosts and still produce a Disturbance upon possession unless 'oozing' (see IPG).

IMPUDITES
    Few Impudites serve the Word of Wrath, angry people are too unpredictable for most Takers But for those who do, they can tell exactly what will anger any victim they have Charmed.

SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS

REDIRECT WRATH
    By spending one Essence and making a successful roll vs. the target's Will, a Servitor of Wrath with this Attunement can redirect any anger a target is feeling or harbours against a target of the user's choice, even in combat. This effect lasts for CD minutes.

HOWL OF RAGE
    A holdover from his days as an Archangel, this Attunement lets Michael's Servitors scream with all the wrath and frustration in their tortured souls. It stuns all foes within a number of feet equal to the demon's Corporeal Forces on the next combat round.

DISTINCTIONS

KNIGHT OF ANGER
    Demons of this Rank can, at a glance, tell if a specific course of action will anger a specific person in their presence.

CAPTAIN OF RAGE
    The demon can determine the most common object of anger among a group of up to a hundred humans.

BARON OF WRATH
    A demon with this rank can, upon angering any target, human or Celestial, by any means (from a Resonance to a conversation) can augment this state so that any and all things around the target except the demon will anger the subject, usually leading to a destructive frenzy. The effect lasts for CD*the Demon's Celestial Forces rounds.

RELATIONS

Allied: Baal, Malphas
Associated: Kronos, Valefor, Beleth
Hostile: Kobal, Haagenti,
Enemy: Asmodeus, Saminga

BASIC RITES

Reduce someone to a state of total rage.

Create anger in someone against a person or group that that person did not formerly feel anger towards.

Induce or setup a crime where the criminal commits the crime with wrath as a sole motivator (ie. cut someone off and trigger an attack of Road Rage that ends in a shooting).

CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 1

INVOCATION MODIFIERS

+1 Screaming in anger
+2 A letter, written in anger
+3 The scene of a crime motivated by anger
+4 A weapon used to commit a crime of anger
+5 Two hated (by each other) enemies engaged in battle, physical or strategic
+6 A riot, motivated by anger - --------------C53CE33A33999CAB352A3647-- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1398 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.