From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 10 00:57:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13775 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:57:23 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA22512 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:57:54 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:57:54 -0600 Message-Id: <199911100657.AAA22512@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1401 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1401 In this digest: Re: IN> Destiny? IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Re: IN> New Malakim IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML Re: IN> Fear...for your fear will keep you ready Re: IN> The Antichrist, Cults and other questions IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Re: IN> New Malakim Re: IN> God is Love Re: IN> God is Love Re: IN> God is Love RE: IN> Cry Havoc! Re: IN> God is Love Re: IN> God is Love Re: IN> Changing Choirs Re: IN> God is Love RE: IN> God is Love IN> When Creation goes out of control! Re: IN> Cry Havoc! IN> Writeups IN> Snake Oil: A Relic Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim Re: IN> Cry Havoc! Re: IN> The Antichrist, Cults and other questions Re: IN> God is Love Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Vessels Re: IN> Cry Havoc! Re: IN> When Creation goes out of control! Re: Re:IN> Cry Havoc! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:02:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? At 2:31 PM -0800 11/9/99, Michael Martin wrote: >On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Ah, but their destiny is the _best_ they can be, and their fate is the >> _worst_. So they're small, petty evil. They're still doing the most harm >> to the Symphony that they're able. > >The wording of all of this implies strongly that if you don't "meet" your >destiny, you will not see Heaven -- you'll be reincarnated to try again >(assuming you don't meet your fate). Yup. The GM can control "trivial fates/destinies" as much as he or she wishes, by simply deciding _what_ fates/destinies are. If he doesn't want a trivial fate/destiny, he doesn't _assign_ them in the first place. >This places the people mentioned in Fall of the Malakim, the people with >"limitless destinies", pretty much out of God's reach, doesn't it? Or the reverse -- they can get something good, and go higher... And it's CDaU if there aren't _other_ ways to get into Heaven. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:57:01 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism >>>Yep, but they aren't as close to either his Word or his heart as free trade is .. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has a soft spot for Capitalism. In theory if not in practice. (Like, from the main book we know that he draws a salary so presumably Communism doesn't over-excite him as a political philosophy)<<< I agree, capitalism is probably what he's settled on as the best that humans can do, so far. Communism may be an experimented he's discarded, or one that he's concluded simply won't work with the present society. (I can see David being very pro-communist, though, which might be another explanation for their friction. Marc says communism doesn't work because it deprives people of individuality and requires too much selflessness; David says "Why should individuality take precedence over building a community, and aren't we supposed to be *encouraging* selflessness?") My main point, though, remains that Marc is *not* the Archangel of Capitalism, as he's often portrayed. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:55:18 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> New Malakim >At 10:12 AM -0600 11/9/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >>is it still >>possible for an angel to undergo such transformation? > >No, not in canon. (Though presumably God could always do it if It wanted >to -- but to let that happen trivially would be kind of... cheapening the >initial genesis of Malakim. Unless you want to make a whole new universe...) > >[I am minded of a "non-canon" universe-hopping thread that Maya (the >GM of the Fiat campaign) did, where the PCs wound up in "Purity Universe." >Uriel was still around, apparently never did the anti-ethereal Purity >Crusade, and some of the parallel characters _had_ done the transform. >For some reason, though, the PCs didn't want to stay in that universe >long...] For those who it may amuse, the logic behind that reasoning was that Uriel personally Purified _Heaven_. He got on just fine with virtuous Ethereals, which is why we had unicorns wandering round Heaven and looking pretty. And everyone wore white. Lots and lots of white. Oh, and Dominic was just another angel who'd died in the Fall way back (resulting in Uriel having his function in Heaven). Laurence was Uriel's right-hand-Malakite, but not wildly important in himself, and certainly not Commander of the Hosts of Heaven. It was amusing. The PCs ran away very fast indeed. - --- Genevieve Cogman maya@tcp.co.uk `Ce n'est qu'en travaillant que les ides viennent' (Sade) ("It is only through working that ideas come") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:59:40 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML Since I see that we have some HTML sent to the list recently, I will post this YET AGAIN (even though it's in the s u b s cription-to-the-list long message that everybody gets when they s u b s c r i b e) so that people will, hopefully, _READ_ it and not cause me to u n s u b s c r i b e them from the list. (Geeze, do I have to have monthly postings of that message that everyone should have gotten when they s u b s c r i b e d?) - --Beth, Djinn Princess of List Admin >From: "Prodigal" >Subject: IN> Getting rid of MIME/HTML >Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:05:57 -0500 > >From: Elizabeth McCoy >> >>Microsoft emailers and browser/emailers are particularly prone to sending >>stuff in MIME or HTML. There are at least _two_ preference toggles you >>have to turn off to get plain text. > >It's actually a little easier than that, with Outlook Express at least. > >In the Options window, there's an option to reply to messages in the format >that they were sent in, which takes care of it, IF you are replying to a >plain text message. > >If you're replying to a message in HTML or posting one that is not a reply, >just click Format, and choose Plain Text. It's what I do, to make sure I >don't violate the spirit of the list (or since this is about IN, would that >be "the celestial ofthe list" instead?) > >> However, that is a small price to pay to >> avoid having the Djinn Princess of List Admin feed your toes to her >Shedim.) > >Not to mention good sense. ;) > >Azzur, Malakim of the Sword >In Service to Protection >Whose Oaths include "I will not post HTML messages to the list." > - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:00:11 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Fear...for your fear will keep you ready - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 http://welcome.to/EvM_Gamers "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" - -----Original Message----- From: Ben Aldred To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 2:54 PM Subject: IN> Fear...for your fear will keep you ready >Beleth, Archangel of Fear > >The redemption of Beleth started with an argument between the Nightmare >Princess and Saminga. [snip] would such a small argument really be enough to get Saminga to raise an army against Beleth? and what of Beleth's defenses. She had the home ground advantage, not to mention she could probably gather up some Ethereal help. I don't think Saminga would have easily crushed her in her own tower, and i don't think she would have just run. > >DISSONANCE >Beleth's angels work to promote fear and heal it rather than deny it. It >is therefore dissonant for any servitor of Beleth to take action to make >someone no longer have to deal with their fears. this seems rather vague or perhaps i'm not reading it correctly. could you please explain some more, perhaps with an example? >INVOCATION MODIFIERS >+3 a copy of dune(fear is the mind-killer...) I must drink Beer. Beer is the Mind-Killer, Beer is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my Beer. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has passed I will turn the inner eye to see it's path. when the Beer has gone there will be nothing, only I will remain. (obscure plug for Goats, another Internet comic www.goats.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:00:39 -0800 (PST) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> The Antichrist, Cults and other questions On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Tim Groth wrote: > Or would they have > to prepare the cult for worshiping an ethereal, kill themselves and become > a dream shade and then grow to a sort of godhood through the cult. > > Timothy, Angel of Rambling > Wow! Okay, I have to use this one. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 17:08:04 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism >>>Marc promotes Trade in the form of mutually beneficial exchange. Any governmental system that helps that goal is of interest to him. So while socialism/ communism is better than feudal lords owning everything and mongol warriors, they are inferior to capitalism.<<< They've proven inferior in their implementation on Earth; that doesn't mean they are intrinsically inferior. (Now, I personally believe that capitalism will always beat communism or socialism in terms of providing the greatest good to the greatest number of people, but I think that's for complex socio-political-economic reasons, not because there's some universal law or provable theorum that makes one inherently superior.) >>>So while Marc is not the Archangel of Capitalism, I'm sure he does a great deal to promote it where inferior (to his point of view) systems are in place.<<< Perhaps, but see my other post. It's often been observed that *ideally*, communism would be a wonderful system. It's just that humans aren't cut out for implementing a system under ideal parameters. Angels, I think, could easily accept a communist system and wonder why anyone would want to subject themselves to the cruelties of capitalism. Communism tries to take care of everybody, at the cost of grinding down those who rise above the rest, while capitalism allows people to rise as high as they're able, at the cost of sacrificing the less capable. So I can see some angels (like David) insisting that Heaven shouldn't lower its standards, and shouldn't allow the weak to be thrown to the wolves just so a gifted few can become wealthy and comfortable. Whereas Marc is more pragmatic, and perhaps quotes Jesus' words: "The poor will always be among us." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:13:55 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> New Malakim > > For those who it may amuse, the logic behind that reasoning was that Uriel > personally Purified _Heaven_. He got on just fine with virtuous Ethereals, > which is why we had unicorns wandering round Heaven and looking pretty. And > everyone wore white. Lots and lots of white. Oh, and Dominic was just > another angel who'd died in the Fall way back (resulting in Uriel having his > function in Heaven). Laurence was Uriel's right-hand-Malakite, but not > wildly important in himself, and certainly not Commander of the Hosts of > Heaven. It was amusing. The PCs ran away very fast indeed. LOL, that is a great setting...You have an expanded write-up of it that you could send me off-list? Lots and Lots of white....HA...I love it Ben Chism Angel of War Stories Demon of Useless Knowledge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:03:42 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> God is Love > Andrealphus > Archangel of Love > "God is caring and compasion and creating and he loves more than anyone > ever can. But we can try." oohh...I like it, I really really like it. Especially the reason for his redemption...One human couple..Bravo! Allied: Eli, Novalis, Yves (Eli and Novalis are Allied to him) > Assosiated: Blandine (Blandine and Yves are assosiated with him) > Hostile: No one (Dominic, Laurence and Michaelare hostile to him) Only one thing I see wrong...I wouldn't figure Michael as hostile...He's somewhat similar to David in the Brotherly Love like things. The whole Band of Brothers(Soldiers...whatever) would fall into the Love category. I'd figure Michael as Neutral to him at the least...just the way I figure it. Ben Chism Angel of War Stories Demon of Useless Knowledge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 18:40:03 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> God is Love At 04:48 PM 11/9/99 -0600, you wrote: >interestingly enough, there's a never-fallen Andrealphus, AA of Love in the >playtest for Superiors 2, I believe for nothing else than the purpose of >still-around servitors and a nice historical look. While working on the Beleth thing it struck me that it might have been interesting to have a what if everyone else fell writeup. Written as if Dominic fell but Asmodeus didn;t Blandine fell but Beleth didn't Michael Fell but Ba'al didn't and so forth. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:45:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> God is Love At 4:48 PM -0600 11/9/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >interestingly enough, there's a never-fallen Andrealphus, Pre-Fallen, to be specific. >AA of Love in the >playtest for Superiors 2, I believe for nothing else than the purpose of >still-around servitors and a nice historical look. Basically, yeah, that's the theory. (Plug, plug, $15 a year for a pyramid subscription.) (Comments on the theory or practice of such a thing on this list will be summarily ignored. I only keep up with the playtest message board because, frankly, it's over 900 messages _there_ already and quite enough to burn my brain out alone.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:43:26 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Cry Havoc! "After all, God chose Laurence as captain of the Host, and obviously He wouldn't have done that if Laurence couldn't hack it. So when Laurence comes to Michael and says, "I have a problem. Will you fix it for me?" he's betraying a dangerous lack of self-confidence and trust in the judgement of God. Of course he'll help the kid out, but if Laurence had wisely used the time spent coming to Michael for help he wouldn't have needed Michael to save him in the first place. (Note that Michael's dissonance condition basically boils down to, "Never give up, ever.")" Minor nitpick God didn't appoint Laurence the Seraphim Council did. And who leads the Seraphim Council? The Hyena. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:13:15 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> God is Love At 6:40 PM -0500 11/9/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >While working on the Beleth thing it struck me that it might have been >interesting to have a what if everyone else fell writeup. Written as if >Dominic fell but Asmodeus didn;t Blandine fell but Beleth didn't Michael >Fell but Ba'al didn't and so forth. And thus was borne the concept of IN: Heresy. It's something those of us who saw the playtest of Superiors 1 (with Fallen/Outcast versions of the various Archangels) wanted to see, in lieu of having said Heretical versions removed for a variety of reasons (mostly it was just a lot of complaints). As we go into Superiors 2 playtesting, the IN: Heresy concept continues to get strong support (at least, that's what my deluded brain tells me). Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:30:15 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> God is Love >While working on the Beleth thing it struck me that it might have been >interesting to have a what if everyone else fell writeup. Written as if >Dominic fell but Asmodeus didn;t Blandine fell but Beleth didn't Michael >Fell but Ba'al didn't and so forth. I've actually been working on this kind of setting (in it Michael is the one who led the Fall). I'm stuck on Eli's Word however (I've considered Stagnation, Banality, Emptiness or something to that effect but I haven't been able to decide). I was also not sure about whether or not to keep Lilith on Hell's side. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: 09 Nov 1999 10:16:45 -0500 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Changing Choirs >>>>> "WM" == Walter Milliken writes: WM> I would expect very few Elohim to have been changed -- the change WM> seemed to depend partly on a sense of outrage and a desire to do WM> something about it. Such an outburst seems uncharacteristic of WM> Elohim, to me. I should say outraged Elohim tend to become Habbalah rather than Malakim. It's the same sort of choir change, though. In fact, Elohim evolving to Habbalah is the only case where angels still change choir regularly ;) Asturiel, Habbalah of Nightmares, Angel of Weird Fiction - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:56:48 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> God is Love >Only one thing I see wrong...I wouldn't figure Michael as hostile...He's >somewhat similar to David in the Brotherly Love like things. The whole Band >of Brothers(Soldiers...whatever) would fall into the Love category. I'd >figure Michael as Neutral to him at the least...just the way I figure it. Let me clarify. Michael thinks Yves is invovled, but being quiet. So he would more accuratly be suspicious. He thinks Andre himself is just fine, but he suspects a plot of Yves. IMC Michael is very very very suspicious of Yves, to the point where when the subject comes up he's almost paranoid. But you have a good point about Michael. Its based on my interpretation of Michael, and with Andre not being as hardcore anti-violence as some other peaceful Archangels he probably shoudl be considered Suspicious and Coldly Neutral. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:37:45 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> God is Love But IN Heresy can also be so much more including a Book of The Dead (Superiors) and other really nifty stuff. I think it should defiantly show everything backwards (Michael leading the fall etc.) but it should also be useful for those of us who want to make Dominic fall (come on admit it - you want to) without bringing down the rest of heaven. It should also include stuff other than superiors setting up Malakim as demons and Lilim as angels... Has this even be mentioned much on the IN List? I know we've talked it in circles on the Pyramid Boards [Plug: only $15 a year remember SolarFlame told you] Any fresh ideas out here? Trent Ofanite of Doubt - keeps failing on his attempts to summon Eli (probably cause he doubts the necessity of invocation modifiers even though he works for Janus) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Shadowstar Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 6:13 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> God is Love And thus was borne the concept of IN: Heresy. It's something those of us who saw the playtest of Superiors 1 (with Fallen/Outcast versions of the various Archangels) wanted to see, in lieu of having said Heretical versions removed for a variety of reasons (mostly it was just a lot of complaints). As we go into Superiors 2 playtesting, the IN: Heresy concept continues to get strong support (at least, that's what my deluded brain tells me). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:30:06 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: IN> When Creation goes out of control! ELI Demon Prince of the Cancer "The world is growing out of control, choking out the old with the new." Eli, in his wanderings, had a sudden insight into his Word. He saw the ever-increasing speed of Creation shunting aside the old, causing novelty worship, making people hate the elderly... his word was *hurting* people, the same people he loved so dearly. This conflict between his Word and his Choir sent him finally falling to the Hell that wanted him so badly. The Princes that looked forward so much to his fall were in for a shock. Creation still hasn't slowed down. It's still overrunning everything else in creation... but he doesn't *care*. He revels in it. He's a cancer on the Symphony, a tumor growing out of control. DISSONANCE - ---------- Servitors of Cancer receive one point of dissonance every two weeks as their personal symphonies change and twist under their Prince's Word. This honks off Asmodeus no end, but then, Dominic didn't like him much when we was an Archangel either. BAND ATTUNEMENTS - ---------------- Eli's Servitors still fight entropy and the Void... but they do it by annihilating everything that's old. New is *better*. Balseraphs When convincing somebody that something is useless because it is outdated or obsolete, they get a bonus to their resonance roll equal to their Celestial Forces. Djinn Djinn of the Cancer can always sever their attunements without fear of lashback as long as it is not their most recent attunement. Calabim These Destroyers are the world's worst mechanics, but they love their work. They have a +2 to any roll to "improve" any device. It actually will be improved, but will have a number of nasty side effects. Habbalah These Punishers consider obsolescence the worst sin. When inflicting an emotion on a person, they have a bonus to the check digit equal to the number of days the target has not felt that emotion. Lilim Eli's Lilim get a bonus equal to their Ethereal Forces when Geasing somebody to cut established ties in their life. Shedim The Shedim of the Cancer have a bonus equal to their Ethereal Forces when convincing a host to drop one of their moral codes, by convincing them it's outdated. Impudites These Impudites can construct talismans, just as their Mercurian counterparts did. However, these talismans a point of dissonance half the time they are used. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS - -------------------- Yawning Void The demon can utterly annihilate unliving matter (that is, matter with no Forces tied to it). Per point of Essence spent, he can destroy a cubic inch of metal, a cubic foot of stone, or a cubic yard of dirt or water. DISTINCTIONS - ------------ Eli didn't offer Distinctions as an Archangel -- he doesn't as a Prince either. RELATIONS - --------- The Princes that dearly wanted him to fall -- primarily Andrealphus and Nybbas -- are sorely disappointed with what happened to his word. They seek to destroy the monster that he has become. The others generally keep their distance. Haagenti likes him, though, since he destroys the old. Allied: No one (Haagenti is Allied with Eli) Associated: Saminga, Haagenti (Saminga is associated with Eli) Hostile: Andrealphus, Asmodeus Enemy: No one (Asmodeus, Nybbas, and Andrealphus are enemies of Eli) BASIC RITES - ----------- * Destroy something valued because of its age. * Replace something with a newer, inferior version. CHANCE OF INVOCATION: VARIES Roll 1 die; the result is his chance of invocation for all attempts made that day by any of his demons anywhere. INVOCATION MODIFIERS - -------------------- +1 A "new and improved" consumer product +2 A company devoted only to selling upgrades +3 A cancer ward +4 An urban renewal site +5 A old neighborhood, rezoned commercial +6 A historical treasure razed to build a shopping mall ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:41:19 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! dinah jones wrote: > i liked this, really i did,except for one thing. it's a small thing really, > but why is laurence frequently portrayed as incompetent? i think that he is > doing the best that he can, especially for someone so young. maybe it's a > character trait i'm just choosing not to see. You hit the nail on the head Laurence lacks the -experience- to lead Heaven's forces as high commander. He's young, and maybe he should have just been a high-ranking Malakite under another leader. - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:42:05 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> Writeups I've been collecting the writeups, but forgot two. Could anyone forward Haaganti and Novalis to me? Thanks. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:39:47 -0600 (EST) From: edg@pyramid.sjgames.com Subject: IN> Snake Oil: A Relic Snake Oil "Combination hookah and coffee-maker! Also makes Julienne fries! Will not break!" (with thanks to Disney and Robin Williams) Snake Oil actually comes in two varieties: Balseraph Oil and Seraph Oil. With both types, it is applied liberally to the target object (one dose will cover a small car), although it is tasteless, odorless, and invisible when applied, and has no physical effects whatsoever on the target object. Snake Oil can be used on living creatures as well as objects. Snake Oil requires an attunement by the owner; if the owner is not attuned to the Oil, it has no effect whatsoever when used. It may /only/ be activated by its owner, but once the Oil is applied, it may be activated at any time thereafter. Balseraph Oil allows the owner to convince anyone examining the target object that it has properties wildly different than those it actually possesses - though the properties must be appropriate. (It's possible to convince someone that a car gets 75 miles to the gallon; saying the same of a wine glass is certain to get the owner some strange looks.) Anyone examining the target object must roll against (Perception - the level of the Oil); failure means they believe every word the owner says about the object. Success grants them the ability to unerringly discern truth from lies as regards the object. Additionally, anyone who fails the roll will ignore the protests of anyone who sees the truth about the object. Balseraph Oil is activated by imbuing the object with Essence equal to the Oil's level; the effects last for a number of hours equal to the owner's Lying skill (use the default if necessary). Seraph Oil does just about the opposite; an object imbued with Seraph Oil cannot be lied about in any way. Examiners may roll (Perception + the level of the Oil) to determine the true capabilities of the object; failure has no consequences. Additionally, the person who owns the target object must subtract the level of the Oil from their target number when they attempt to lie or mislead people about its capabilities! Seraph Oil pre-empts Balseraph Oil; if both Oils are applied to an object, the Balseraph Oil has no effect whatsoever, but the Seraph Oil still acts at full power. Seraph Oil is activated by imbuing the object with Essence equal to the Oil's level; its effects last for a number of /days/ equal to the owner's Perception. Cost: 3 CP per level for one dose Activation: 1 Essence per level of the Oil - ----- Thoughts? Special thanks to Illumina and archangel for inspiring this one. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:49:38 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Here's a cheery thought: I gather that Malakim are immune to > Trauma simply because they've been through it so much, they've > built up a resistance, not because of any resistance built into > their design to start with. In that case, couldn't Baal, say, > develop a battle-hardened cadre of, say, Calabim who are immune > to Trauma for the same reason? Hahahahaa! I can see Baal now, lining up Calabim and killing their Vessels and wondering -why- they still go into Trauma. Naaaah, Baal isnt that dumb, and who'd volunteer? I'd say it -is- a design feature because Superiors -expect- that Malakim will go through a lot of vessels because they won't surrender or (usually) run without a -good- reason. A Calabite is under no such restriction. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:51:52 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! Amo Nympham wrote: > ack!!! HTML > > other than that, my only problem with this is why would the relation between > Wrath and Death...are they both hostile to each other? I can see Saminga > liking Michael (Wrath kills a lot of people) or hating him (old habits die > hard). Saminga is an idiot, Michael hates idiots. And as for the other way 'round, Michael does kill, but he's also a -lot- tougher and meaner than Saminga...and subtle. - -Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:51:44 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Antichrist, Cults and other questions At 17:47 -0500 11/9/99, Tim Groth wrote: > Thus does an ethereal Antichrist exist, or >because Christianity is one of the divine religions does it not spawn any >ethereals. I would tend to say the latter -- any power associated with Christianity would tend to get siphoned off into the celestial realms, somehow, rather than forming in the Marches as a new ethereal. One can argue (and the ethereal gods probably do) that the reason that there are no ethereals associated with the divine religions is that there *are* ethereals filling those roles already -- but that they call themselves celestials.... >My second question is related. Is there a point where a splinter from one >of the divine religions looses that status and generates an ethereal as a >resault. For example some cult that worships the Antichrist. Probably if its sufficiently warped to no longer have an affinity with the celestial reality, it might become a ethereal religion; I think it would have to deviate conceptually from the underlying themes of the War (selflessness vs. selfishness) to do that, though I'm just guessing -- I'm not an expert on either theology or comparative religions. And this is all an area of deep CDaU, anyway. >Which leads into the third. What about Satan worship? Does Lucifer get >essence from that? Quite possibly. But it may be peanuts to what get gets from the souls in Hell. But at least it keeps him from having pathetic ethereal "shadows" of one sort or another. >Finally this question is only somewhat related. Since a new cult that >forms if they provide enough essence will create an ethereal patron (as is >my understanding of how these things work), I'm not certain it's quite that simple -- I think you have to have the concept of the new ethereal pretty deeply ingrained in the local human culture to have much of a chance. David may have addressed this in the GMG stuff on religions. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to read much of that. > can a mortal in the know >design rituals and prayers and the like that will create a tailored >ethereal. Basically a god on demand. In theory, I suppose it's possible. But it's probably a lot like trying to create a Tether on demand -- you've got a good idea of what it takes, but 99 times out of 100 (or more), it just doesn't work for some reason you don't understand. I.e., it's not something formulaic and repeatable. > A variant on this is can that mortal >using their knowledge of Essence and the Symphony set themselves up for >worship, draw essence from it and become an ethereal. Or would they have >to prepare the cult for worshiping an ethereal, kill themselves and become >a dream shade and then grow to a sort of godhood through the cult. I'd say it would require the latter -- I don't think a human can directly convert to being an ethereal, and can only become a pseudo-ethereal as a dream shade. If Elvis managed to become a dream shade when he died.... Frankly, I'd say the whole process is likely to be rather inefficient and risky, not the sort of thing the sort of power-seeker who'd try such a setup would normally be willing to risk. I know I'd want to have a *lot* of very reliable information on the accidental conversion of humans to pseudo-ethereals before I'd want to risk it. (Or I'd have to be a seriously megalomaniacal loon....) I'll bet people try it in the IN universe, every once in a while. Kobal probably laughs himself silly over the attempts.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:05:01 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> God is Love > Let me clarify. Michael thinks Yves is invovled, but being quiet. So he > would > more accuratly be suspicious. He thinks Andre himself is just fine, but he > suspects a plot of Yves. IMC Michael is very very very suspicious of Yves, > to the point where when the subject comes up he's almost paranoid. > > But you have a good point about Michael. Its based on my interpretation of > Michael, and with Andre not being as hardcore anti-violence as some other > peaceful Archangels he probably shoudl be considered Suspicious and Coldly > Neutral. Ahh...I didn't connect Yves with Andre's redemption...I figured Eli helped out...but whenever anything weird comes up I figure Eli's involved(That's why I think he's sooo cool...Michael is my favorite superior, but Eli is a very close second)...If Michael thinks Yves is involved I heartily agree that he outta be very suspicious of the whole thing. The more I think about Yves, the more I tend to take Michael's view(I'm biased though)..Not that Yves is working against Heaven, but Yves could defiantly be doing more. Although, if Yves did take a more active role, it could end up hurting Heaven more than helping. But Yves role in Gabriel's exile has me wondering about him.... Ben Chism Angel of War Stories Demon of Useless Knowledge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 22:01:19 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? >From: Elizabeth McCoy >> >Yup. The GM can control "trivial fates/destinies" as much as he or she >wishes, by simply deciding _what_ fates/destinies are. If he doesn't >want a trivial fate/destiny, he doesn't _assign_ them in the first >place. > Ah. I don't agree that there are 'trivial' fates or destinies. Each according to his ability/ opportunity. Not everyone could be Hitler or Gandhi. I'd say that a kid with Down's Syndrome whose destiny is to make people happy has just as great a destiny as an artist who is destined to be a second Michelangelo. I'm sure heaven doesn't discriminate (check Yves' write-up -- he looks after all the destinies equally). Some people may have greater potential, and those /will/ have to work harder to reach Heaven. C'est la vie. But it seems very wrong to me that you should have to work hard to reach Hell. Like, if your Fate is to be a mass murderer but you 'only' manage to kill one person, I don't think you get back on the reincarnation-roundabout. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 16:42:13 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels - ---------- > At 15:53 -0500 11/9/99, Azrael wrote: > >Do vessels leave fingerprints? > >Do vessels pores produce oil? > >Do vessels' have DNA? If so is it all the same? Or is it all the same for the > one celestial? Or the one Superior? > >Is the DNA in the same form as humans? > >Do they have the same # chromosomes? > >Are they chemically identical to a normal human? > >Are they also approx 80% water? (That number fluctuates btwix various > sources) > So they can probably sweat during a workout (even though they don't > have to generate extra heat from exertion), or actually appear to have > a normal O2/CO2 balance in the lungs (though there's no reason for them > to generate CO2 if they don't metabolize organic compounds for energy). If they don't require oxygen then why must they breath? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:52:38 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! The Alien wrote: > Oddly, Laurence is on very good terms with Dominic, who is > unquestionably the angel most aware of how fallible angels are. Laurence is also a Malakite...he can't Fall. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:07:51 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> When Creation goes out of control! Michael Martin wrote: > ELI > > Demon Prince of the Cancer > the Symphony, a tumor growing out of control. > > DISSONANCE > ---------- > > Servitors of Cancer receive one point of dissonance every two weeks as > their personal symphonies change and twist under their Prince's Word. > This honks off Asmodeus no end, but then, Dominic didn't like him much > when we was an Archangel either. Okay, I got a problem with this, here. How do -any- of them survive? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 16:53:19 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: Re:IN> Cry Havoc! - ---------- > > > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, dinah jones wrote: > > > i liked this, really i did,except for one thing. it's a small thing really, > > but why is laurence frequently portrayed as incompetent? i think that he is > > > doing the best that he can, especially for someone so young. maybe it's a > > character trait i'm just choosing not to see. > > p. IN130: "It's not [Michael's] job to bitch about things, so he generally > doesn't, but he's getting tired of pulling Laurence's fat out of the fire > every century or two." > > same: "...Laurence...has crossed iron with Michael and has humble memories > of the occasion." > > So it's not that Larry is truly incompentent... it's that Michael, to some > degree, feels that he's gotta keep doing Larry's job for him. To quote the book "Laurence is too idealistic as a planner" So Laurence doesn't allow for mistake and errors, he keeps thinking that everyone has his capabilities, does,t think of other possible consequences etc... Michael watches when something that Laurence didn't expect happens, and just stamds there dumfounded (who would have thought that that Tether had a large and powerful army of Calabim just waiting for something like this to happen), and then deploys a taskforce to clean up the mess. Remember Laurence tolerates *NO* subordination so would not listen to the happless Servitors protests of "But I'm only a newly fledged Mercurian, He's the Djinn Seneschal of one of the largest and most powerful Demonic Thethers in th" "Dah!!( Larry interupts) are you being insolent? Do you assume to know more than I? Get in there and take the bastard out." "But" "Zip it, www.shhh.com.org etc" Azrael "RAGE!" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1401 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.