From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 11 11:37:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07865 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:37:58 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA16551 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:23:57 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:23:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199911111723.LAA16551@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1405 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1405 In this digest: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> Vessels and Words. Re: IN> Vessels and Words. Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN>Malakim Oaths Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> Vessels and Words. IN> Losing Superior status? Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> Losing Superior status? Re: IN>Malakim Oaths Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN>Cry Havoc! IN> Servitor Meetings Re: IN> Vessels and Words. Re: IN> heresy Re: IN> Servitor Meetings Re: IN> Losing Superior status? Re: IN> Servitor Meetings Re: IN> When Creation goes out of control! Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN>Cry Havoc! IN> Running the Seraphim Council (was Cry Havoc!) Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Re: IN> Vessels and Words. Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Re: IN> Losing Superior status? Re: IN> Vessels and Words. Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Re: IN> Servitor Meetings Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:24:33 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host >>>Very interesting, and I can see it working fine as your game - but I wouldn't call it canon for one simple reason. Laurence is not protrayed as that understanding of the War for humanity's mind and soul<<< He is in Superiors 1. :) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 03:14:30 GMT From: "Trey Reilly" Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host >Laurence is the best General of the Host because he is the MOST >idealistic angel in Heaven, the one with the most incorruptible >morals, >the one with the highest standards. Very well stated. That clears up something that's been in my mind for quite some time now. Thank you. - --Trey ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:23:34 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vessels and Words. At 18:41 -0500 11/10/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >Also, what's a good Word that mixes Driving (or Cars, in an aggresive, fast, >stunt sense) and Destiny (or Judgement, pick either)? How about "Hot Pursuit"? (For Judgement, naturally.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:22:40 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vessels and Words. At 18:41 -0500 11/10/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >Can a Celestial take an ITEM as a vessel? I have a player who asked if he >can be a car as one of his vessels. I don't really see why not -- the Bound Discord allows it, for example. I have the Police Car from Hell in my game -- a police cruiser vessel for a Calabite of the Game. Rather startled the PCs when they were leading a car chase (Elizabeth corrects me, "in the middle of a car chase"...) and the thing materialized on their tail. (An Infernal Intervention on a call for help by the Balseraph they were chasing. Of course, he was a Theft Servitor, so the notion that it was "help" may have been a bit dubious.... But Lucifer was probably amused. *I* was definitely amused when the Lightning Kyrio tried to possess it and discovered it was already occupied.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:42:09 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host At 12:45 AM +0000 11/11/99, Warsinger wrote: > > >Very interesting, and I can see it working fine as your game - but I >wouldn't call it canon for one simple reason. Laurence is not protrayed >as that understanding of the War for humanity's mind and soul - that it >what Blandine and Novalis do - and there are quotes I could take from the >book if I had it with me about how Laurence slights Novalis. Not in >reference to her dress or anything - just a lack of use of her power to >calm hearts. > Ah, but that's not really what David meant. Laurence understands the *battlefield,* and his ideals are high enough to fight the battle the way it must be fought. That doesn't mean he (yet) understands how to use all the weapons at his command, or fight on all the fronts he must, properly. Note too that while yes, he slights Novalis, Novalis doesn't slight *him* or regret him. At least, not in her quote about him. And he very clearly *does* understand Blandine's role and battlefield, in his quote about her. He's not perfect and he's not completely acclimated to his role, but he's the best, brightest hope that Heaven has to win. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:43:05 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN>Malakim Oaths At 20:08 -0500 11/10/99, David Barr wrote: >Has this been addressed, in cannon? or on list, for that matter. as I >write this, I suspect it may have been Actually, I don't recall anything similar to this question on the list, and I don't believe it's covered anywhere in canon. Congratulations, you've found a novel topic! Personally, I'd say the two standard oaths are part of their Choir nature, much like their resonance and dissonance are. (Now I have to go double-check to see what I said in GURPS IN about this....) Interestingly, Malakim are the only Choir that can select even *some* of their dissonance conditions. (Of course, it might be that the Superior creating them gets to select the other two as "customizations" of the basic-model Malakite. And relievers who fledge Malakite may simply "grow into" their oaths -- some aspect already in their personality "locks in".) So you could play either side of the free will debate there. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:07:55 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host I like his reaction in Fall of the Malakim, where not only is he outraged at David (along with the other Superiors) but he's also visibly shaken. He seems rather human, especially for a Malakite. Which could be what Yves is talking about. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:57:39 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Vessels and Words. >I don't really see why not -- the Bound Discord allows it, for example. >I have the Police Car from Hell in my game -- a police cruiser vessel for >a Calabite of the Game. [snip] That rocks, that must have been an amusing session. I have a Balseraph with the following vessels: a walkman, a portable CD player and a portable mini-disc player. He's a servitor of Kronos and has yet to ever be suspected by an angel. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:06:31 -0700 From: EDG Subject: IN> Losing Superior status? Question: Can an Archangel, without Falling, dying, or becoming a Remnant, ever lose Archangel status due to decline of their Word? (Likewise Demon Princes.) If so, do they become servitors of other Archangels? What happens to their own servitors? Also, what is the invocation modifier to invoke a Superior who Fell, for former angels of the Superior's old Word? - -a curious EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:31:21 -0800 (PST) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Or perhaps the reason Yves smiles every time is a bit different... 1) Laurence is easier to manipulate. or 2) Laurence is EXPENDABLE. That's right. The leader of the Armies of God is going to die. Whoever it is. Exit Michael, exit Uriel, Laurence isn't an original model anyway. or 3) Uriel is coming back in a big way. He's been pumping iron in the Higher Heavens for a while now, having meekly accepted God telling him, "You confused Pure (no contaminants) with Pure (made of a single substance). Don't do that again." When Uriel comes back to Purify the world on a much more subtle level, who better to hand over the reins of power? Laurence has been forging the Armies of God into an ideal sword for modern purposes. That sword will be handed over... or 4) Only Laurence can help redeem Beleth. Why? Michael doesn't understand her old Word... That last is kind of pushing things, but I take the comment by Yves in Night Music (He was chosed for a purpose, just wait, you'll see.) as license to fabricate... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:31:13 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Losing Superior status? >Question: Can an Archangel, without Falling, dying, or becoming a Remnant, >ever lose Archangel status due to decline of their Word? (Likewise Demon >Princes.) I don't see why not. Even with the angelic tendancy to interpret their Words as widely as possible some Words will fade from the Symphony to the point where a Superiors massive amount of Forces wouldn't be stable (or something to that effect). I'd imagine an allied or assosiated Archangel would make them a servitor and incorperate their operation into theirs. If their Word lost enough power than their Servitors will probably also. >Also, what is the invocation modifier to invoke a Superior who Fell, for >former angels of the Superior's old Word? Um I don't think you can summon Superiors on the other side. And I don't think a Superior would want to come and chat civily with a servitor that didn't follow them over to the other side. But I'd put it at -10 because I like the number 10 (and if I remember that's the number for angels trying to summon Lilith). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:35:55 -0800 (PST) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN>Malakim Oaths On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, David Barr wrote: > ... Or are they...issued (lacking a better word) to the > malakim at creation. "Heres your wings, heres your tight black pants, > heres your halo, and here are your oaths; these two are standard, and > two more of your choice, pick carefully." This was discussed once before I believe. I seem to recall theorizing that someone, perhaps Eli, might create a Malakite and shield them from perceiving the world, the Symphony as a whole at first. Put them in a bubble. The idea was that all Malakim swear those oaths as an instinctive reaction of an Angel of Honor to the state of reality, of the Symphony. The minute they feel that flat note that is Hell, . But maybe you can keep them from that until they're older and don't react so instinctively... My ideas and those of others get mixed in my mind over time of course. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:07:23 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host In a message dated 11/10/99 6:46:13 PM Central Standard Time, ngm1@st-andrews.ac.uk writes: << Very interesting, and I can see it working fine as your game - but I wouldn't call it canon for one simple reason. Laurence is not protrayed as that understanding of the War for humanity's mind and soul - that it what Blandine and Novalis do - and there are quotes I could take from the book if I had it with me about how Laurence slights Novalis. Not in reference to her dress or anything - just a lack of use of her power to calm hearts. >> But it's also been mentioned in a few places that he recognizes that the war has many fronts. Including social, economic, propaganda, etc. Rev. Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:14:45 CST From: "jonh smith" Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host interesting idea. But I dont think that it works. Michaels tactics show that he does understand the art of subtlety. look at the writeups about his tactics w/ regard to soldiers and saints. He has them dug deep into all kinds of organizations throughout the world, waiting for the go signal for a big engagment. If he was purely a big dumb brute of a warrior, he would have those men and women doing hit and run raids on demonic tethers all over the world. it isn't by laurences order that he has planted those moles. it's his own knowlege of what is neccisary to win in hte long term. Also, Laurence isn't much more into the redemption of the individual than Mike. That is the peace faction, and more importantly, Yves, department. Laurence is in charge of a coordinated overall war effort. He didn't get the job directly from god. he got it because he was uriels scond in command, and god called uriel away. as a result, luarence ws left in charge, by default. That's chain of comand, something that dosn't mean nearly as much in Mikes army as it does in Laurences. As it has been repeated now to the point of being tired, Laurence is a very good comander for the overall war effort because: A) he is a good strategist B) as a malakim, he won't be falling C) He does he wants the job and is willing to put up w/ the hassle. That is the reason given by Michael for droping the job of supreme comander, and i agree with it. playing politics really is very hard when your word is war. when everything is a contsest politics are nigh impossible. laurence happens to be a moderate. (that being a comparative term.) When Mike disagreed w/ the seraph council, he just did his own thing anyway. he didn't go out of his way to be destructive, but he didn't feel obligated to listen to any of the other AA's. Luarence is the model for the perfect general. He gets the job done w/out undue loss of life, and dosn't piss of the other politicians enough to get canned. he is an officer and a gentelman. Mike is the perfect feild marshal. So long as he never sees the politicians he works for, he will get the job done better than anyone else in the symphony. -onaxtheil, A.K.A. "Roger Oglthorpe" Malikim of war. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:35:19 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN>Cry Havoc! dinah jones wrote: > ok, i'm starting to see the point. maybe he is a little bit leadership > challenged... at least he still looks good in those leather pants. Inasfar as I can tell from the books, this -is- canon: that Laurence is too idealistic about his own forces -and- about how demons fight. Michael is more of a pragmatists. Here's a nice real world example: In World War I, the machine gun was an innovation that changed how war -had- to be fought. Trench warfare normally allowed a slow, steady advance as positions beyond the trenches were softened up, then overwhelmed and taken with a charge, secured, then the process repeats. Ordinance could ge lobbed into trenches, but not at any great rate or with a great deal of accuracy, so soldiers had to get -out- of them and face a force with about equal firepower (depending on the situation) and a fairly low rate of fire. But then, you have a few guys with Maxims sitting there -trained- on your trench. As soon as you send some troops over, they open fire at a very -high- rate of fire and, even if not that accurate, the amount of lead flying can take a group down. But still, commanders (particularly French and English) still used older tactics, resulting in slaughters like Galipoli. I see Laurence as something like that. He uses strategy that -worked- in the early days of the War, but now seem to be losing effectiveness. Michael is more like an old soldier who knows what to do once battle is joined, but Laurence has - -got- to update his viewpoint and strategy. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:41:28 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> Servitor Meetings Well, the APG and IPG gave us specifics of how you meet with your Superior and hopefully, the Superior books will expand on that. But my question is (and I may submit my own version) how do a group of Servitors of a particular Superior act when they get together and meet? Like for instance, do Marc's people sit down at a table with doughnuts and a coffee machine only the likes of God have ever seen? Or do Jean's Servitors do chatrooms, or maybe like a symposium of academics? Food for thought. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:49:25 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Vessels and Words. Ben Glickler wrote: > Can a Celestial take an ITEM as a vessel? I have a player who asked if he > can be a car as one of his vessels. Ummm, if he has a very odd Superior. If deep sea fish, why -not- a car? > Also, what's a good Word that mixes Driving (or Cars, in an aggresive, fast, > stunt sense) and Destiny (or Judgement, pick either)? Try: "Destinations". Gotta get there, gotta get there for a purpose. Under Destiny. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 99 17:54:39 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> heresy Yeah an' what would happen to Haagenti? - ---------- > additional question with this whole everyone else fell thing. Which of the > other archangels do people feel would be malakim? > Ben > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 03:33:10 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Servitor Meetings Blandine's servitors gather in a dreamscape surrounded by daliesque settings. David's servitors get together at the pub for a post rugby pint. Dominic's servitors sit in the back of a courtroom and chat. Eli's servitors have massive bacchanalia. Gabriel's servitors sit around the edge of a volcano and enjoy the heat. Janus' servitors meet at an amusement park after hours Jean's servitors hang out at #lightning on IRC. Jordi's go out on a hunting expedition. Laurence's get together for mass. Marc's go outside the office building and pick up some hot dogs from the vendor outside. Michael's get together in the old Dr. Strangelove style war room(don't let the demons see the big board). Novalis' servitors go for a walk in the park or a botanical garden. Yves' servitors go to a Yankees game and pick out the all stars in the stands. Christopher's go to a playground and sit on the benches watching the kids play. Zadkiel's wander around the halls of castles together. Khalid's meet at the mosque for prayers. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:38:47 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Losing Superior status? Tim Groth wrote: > >Also, what is the invocation modifier to invoke a Superior who Fell, for > >former angels of the Superior's old Word? > Um I don't think you can summon Superiors on the other side. And I don't > think a Superior would want to come and chat civily with a servitor that > didn't follow them over to the other side. But I'd put it at -10 because I > like the number 10 (and if I remember that's the number for angels trying > to summon Lilith). Gee, that'd be too easy of a trap, huh? Summon Haagenti or Malphas and have Michael and Laurence standing by. I'd say it's just a matterof if you can produce a Celestial or Diabolic 'call' of the proper 'frequency'. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:59:10 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Servitor Meetings >From: Ben Aldred > > >Michael's get together in the old Dr. Strangelove style war room(don't let >the demons see the big board). "You can't fight here! This is the War Room!" jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 06:58:00 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: Re: IN> When Creation goes out of control! > Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:30:06 -0800 (PST) > From: Michael Martin > Subject: IN> When Creation goes out of control! > SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS > - -------------------- > > Yawning Void > > The demon can utterly annihilate unliving matter (that is, matter with no > Forces tied to it). Per point of Essence spent, he can destroy a cubic > inch of metal, a cubic foot of stone, or a cubic yard of dirt or water. Annihilation doesn't seem consistent with the Cancer... > RELATIONS > - --------- > Allied: No one (Haagenti is Allied with Eli) > Associated: Saminga, Haagenti (Saminga is associated with Eli) > Hostile: Andrealphus, Asmodeus > Enemy: No one (Asmodeus, Nybbas, and Andrealphus are enemies of Eli) Vapula. Vapula. Vapula. He and Eli cannot be just neutral towards each other -- just look at the Calabim attunement! They either work well together or despise each other -- but neutrality isn't in the cards. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:22:50 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host At 12:14 AM -0600 11/11/99, jonh smith wrote: >interesting idea. But I dont think that it works. Michaels tactics >show that he does understand the art of subtlety. look at the >writeups about his tactics w/ regard to soldiers and saints. He has >them dug deep into all kinds of organizations throughout the world, >waiting for the go signal for a big engagment. If he was purely a >big dumb brute of a warrior, he would have those men and women doing >hit and run raids on demonic tethers all over the world. it isn't >by laurences order that he has planted those moles. it's his own >knowlege of what is neccisary to win in hte long term. You're confusing "win at any cost" with "lack of tactical knowledge." They're very different ideas. *No* one is saying Michael is incapable of strategy. (Which is really what you mean -- tactical knowledge is 'the day of the battle,' strategy is 'the big picture.') Michael is very capable of strategy. What Michael isn't particularly capable of is the idea that *Heaven* has to win the *right* way, not *any* way. Which was the point of the writeup. It's not enough for Laurence that the Demons get carved into small pieces and the Angels take every city and break every Tether. If in the process of that happening humanity turns towards its Fate, the Demons *win.* *Lucifer* wins. Laurence Gets that. Michael doesn't. > Also, Laurence isn't much more into the redemption of the >individual than Mike. That is the peace faction, and more >importantly, Yves, department. Redemption isn't the same, in this context, as humanity reaching its collective Destiny. But that being said, Laurence is a lot less likely to abandon individual humans to Hell than Michael is. To Laurence, *any* dishonor is anathema. Every human who goes to Hell is a stain on Heaven's banner. Does he properly understand the role of the Peace Faction in their redemption? Not fully, but he's getting there. Michael, on the other hand, would chalk up the humans going to Hell as 'acceptable losses.' >Laurence is in charge of a coordinated overall war effort. He >didn't get the job directly from god. Yes, he did. That's Canon. It's a big part of why Khalid is on the brink of Falling in The Final Trumpet -- God chose a wet behind the ears Malakite over the Angel of Faith who Lucifer himself said was a worthy adversary and who beat Magog almost singlehandedly. A good number of the Big Archangels just aren't sure *why* Laurence was chosen. David is convinced *he* should have been chosen, but he'd never break ranks over it. >he got it because he was uriels scond in command, and god called >uriel away. as a result, luarence ws left in charge, by default. >That's chain of comand,something that dosn't mean nearly as much in >Mikes army as it does in Laurences. The fact that Laurence got the job is actually proof the Seraphim Council *didn't* give it to him, as I seriously doubt the Seraphim Council would simply rubberstamp a few-hundred-year-old minor Word-bound for the single most important military position in all of Heaven because he was one of Uriel's top aides in the very Purity Crusade that caused Uriel to get called to the showers. Chain of command is how Laurence works. We have no reason to expect it's how Uriel worked (remember, modern militaries didn't exist in 745). And it's *certainly* not how most of the Archangels work. But *God* works in mysterious ways, and when He comes down and says something, you'd better be prepared to listen closely. >C) He does he wants the job and is willing to put up w/ the hassle. Laurence does not particularly want the job, or so it seems to me. Laurence was happiest as the finest of all Demon Hunters -- a knight without reproach and without peer -- carving up demons one on one. His honor won't let him set it aside, however. >That is the reason given by Michael for droping the job of supreme >comander, and i agree with it. playing politics really is very hard >when your word is war. when everything is a contsest politics are >nigh impossible. I'd argue that politics are just another battlefield. But Michael dropped the job of supreme commander in the aftermath of his being convicted of the same Sin that caused Lucifer to be thrown out of Heaven -- either he was far too angry to keep working, or (as David's writeup suggests) he recognized the scandal would hamper his effectiveness and Heaven's morale more than his leaving would. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:27:52 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN>Cry Havoc! At 11:35 PM -0800 11/11/99, Steel Angel wrote: > > I see Laurence as something like that. He uses strategy that >-worked- in the early days of the War, but now seem to be losing >effectiveness. Michael is more like an old soldier who knows what to >do once battle is joined, but Laurence has -got- to update his >viewpoint and strategy. Weird -- I see it as the complete opposite. Michael's the First Angel who's fought the same way since the day he kicked Lucifer where the dog should have bit him. Laurence I see as the swordsman who adapts his style and mode of combat for the circumstance. Laurence's major problem is he expects the demons to be honorable and they're not. Michael's major problem is he'd send those fifteen waves of angels and humans over the hill into maxim machine gun fire, letting the enemy deplete their ammo on a feint where 10,000 die so that five men can get behind enemy lines and smash stuff up with grenades. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:20:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Running the Seraphim Council (was Cry Havoc!) I tend to see a lot of squabble, too, with all the Archangels guilty in different ways -- those that bother to attend. Some yell, some sulk or brood, some lay down the law in icy tones, some drone on and on. I imagine the actual procedural framework being maintained by a few VERY OLD angels who have been doing this, well, forever -- say an Elohite chairman, a Seraph secretary, and a Cherub sergeant-at-arms. (No Malakim. By the time people knew what to make of Malakim, the system was already in place.) These three privately feel rather the way the producers of an opera would feel with a cast of a dozen or so prima donnas, or of course the orderlies in a loony bin. "It's like herding a mixed batch of wolverines and porcupines," the cherub was heard to say at the Christmas party, the year someone spiked the ambrosia. "And I wish to the Highest Heaven that Jean hadn't given Marc that laser pointer." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:26:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > A celestial's primary > interest is in the disposition of human souls after their > deaths. Fundamentally, they don't care about material conditions on > Earth except instrumentally In "The Screwtape Letters," written as Britain was starting to get bombed in World War II, Wormwood asks Screwtape if the war is a good or a bad thing. Screwtape answers that, while of course human fear, pain, and death are enjoyable to demons, it's worse than useless if they also become brave and selfless under the stimulus, and that war and peace, "like health and sickness, youth and age, wealth and poverty, and so many of the other things humans make such a fuss about, are, from the spiritual standpoint, simply raw material." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:42:35 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism >From: Earl Wajenberg >"like health and sickness, >youth and age, wealth and poverty, and so many of the other things >humans make such a fuss about, are, from the spiritual standpoint, >simply raw material." Here, I'm not sure if I agree. Poverty and sickness do serve Hell, because whilst people are starving or ill, they're going to be concentrating on day-to-day necessities like food or medicine, instead of 'higher things.' I'm not talking about the type of starving when you go on a hunger strike, but the grinding poverty of knowing that you have 3 kids to feed and all you can think about, every spare minute of the day, is how the heck you are going to pay your bills before someone sends the bailiffs round. I strongly suspect that it's easier to be good on a full stomach. It's a matter of priorities and most non-saints will at least try to look after their own physical requirements before they spend time doing anything else. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:11:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Jo Hart wrote: > Here, I'm not sure if I agree. Poverty and sickness do serve Hell, > because whilst people are starving or ill, they're going to be > concentrating on day-to-day necessities like food or medicine, > instead of 'higher things.' [...] > I strongly suspect that it's easier to be good on a full stomach. > It's a matter of priorities and most non-saints will at least try > to look after their own physical requirements before they spend > time doing anything else. Yes, it's easier, and thus it doesn't reflect as serious a moral effort as being good on an empty stomach. If you struggle to meet your physical requirements, and struggle to do so while remaining honest, or not losing hope or your tempter, and sacrificing your vanity -- and especially if you are also struggling to meet the physical needs of three kids, rather than abadonning them -- you ARE persuring "higher things." Are any other Americans on the list old enough to remember Jimmy Carter talking about "the moral equivalent of war"? "Moral equivalent of" became a catch phrase in American politics and political humor for a while after that. Carter was referring to the oil crisis of that time, but he was quoting the philosopher William James. James had noted the way war (while clearly completely awful in many ways) could also bring out great moral effort in people. He viewed the religious discipline of asceticism as "the moral equilvalent of war," a way to deliberately enter a heroic mode of life without getting lots of people butchered. Contrariwise, being poor or caught in a war is involuntary asceticism, but it is still a spiritual opportunity, for both sides. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:35:07 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels and Words. - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 http://welcome.to/EvM_Gamers "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" - -----Original Message----- From: Ben Glickler To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 5:45 PM Subject: IN> Vessels and Words. >Can a Celestial take an ITEM as a vessel? I have a player who asked if he >can be a car as one of his vessels. if he's a Kyriotate and has the Kyriotate of Lightening Attunement, yes. otherwise it's Living Artifact time... > >Also, what's a good Word that mixes Driving (or Cars, in an aggresive, fast, >stunt sense) and Destiny (or Judgement, pick either)? umm...perhaps he should transfer to a different superior, like Janus. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:41:16 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism >From: Earl Wajenberg >>Yes, it's easier, and thus it doesn't reflect as serious a moral >effort as being good on an empty stomach. > I think this is partly what I mean. In game terms, it's easier for demons to tempt people who are already poor, Lilim especially. And it wouldn't even be expensive, that's the sad thing. Poverty certainly causes misery, depression, suffering -- all things which tend to aid Hell's cause. IMO. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:05:14 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Losing Superior status? At 23:06 -0500 11/10/99, EDG wrote: >Question: Can an Archangel, without Falling, dying, or becoming a Remnant, >ever lose Archangel status due to decline of their Word? (Likewise Demon >Princes.) If so, do they become servitors of other Archangels? What >happens to their own servitors? I suppose it's possible, in theory. I don't think it's happened in canon, though. I'd assume they'd become a high-ranking Servitor of another AA with a compatible Word. Their Servitors would presumably follow the rules for orphans, except that there's a good possibility that Rites would continue to work (since ordinary Word-bound have those); summoning might also work, though that's iffier. >Also, what is the invocation modifier to invoke a Superior who Fell, for >former angels of the Superior's old Word? I don't think you *can* invoke a Superior who's switched sides. Or if you can, it's no easier than for any other non-Servitor of the Fallen Superior. As far as I know, in canon, Lilith is the only Superior who can be summoned by those who aren't direct Servitors. (Though in our games, a lot of people are cautious about using the names of Superiors -- especially Demon Princes, and most especially Lucifer. You never know what they might respond to....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:04:20 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Vessels and Words. Ben Glickler wrote: > > Can a Celestial take an ITEM as a vessel? I have a player who asked if he > can be a car as one of his vessels. Probably, but there are no rules for it right now. There are several canonical ways that characters can have inanimate vessels right now. * servitors of Flowers can inhabit plants * servitors of Stone with their 'rocky' vessels * characters with the Bound discord * servitors of Lightning for short times IMO, any Superior could grant a vehicular vessel, but the only ones who do so are Jean and Vapula--and then only with good reason. Vessels are an investment of time and energy for a Superior and non-standard ones are somewhat hard to justify since self-mobile vehicles are typically harder to 'blend in' with human society. ;) That said, the advantages of a vehicular vessel (high speed, ability to carry passengers, leather bucket seats, etc.) are balanced by the disadvantages (they can take the stairs only with difficulty, never get invited to cocktail parties, are a prime target for pigeons after servitors of David). Buy the vessel like a normal one, but Charisma is only an option if the GM allows it. (Even then, it should only cost one point per level since interacting with society and sex appeal hardly ever come into play with a car... at least not for the car itself!) More so that human-style vessels, vehicles can be made quite tough. I'd allow vessel levels higher than 6; in fact I'd insist on them for very large or powerful ones! - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for Data General + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:11:12 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Snipped David's essay] Excellent, sir! Well reasoned all around. -john 'Archangel of Things Best Forgotten' karakash- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:13:30 -0800 (PST) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism It all depends. Do we consider Job to be a valid example? I always saw it as something of a con job, myself. And I've had to write an extensive paper on it. It is, to me, clearly designed to make the faithful more accepting of adversity. Whether it is so because God dictated it to Man for that purpose, or made it happen for that purpose... or whether priests made it up for that purpose, it's clearly got that kind of slant. But if you take it as valid... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:15:11 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Servitor Meetings At 2:41 -0500 11/12/99, Steel Angel wrote: > Or do Jean's Servitors do chatrooms, or >maybe like a symposium of academics? Jean's Servitors are too busy to get together -- they exchange email instead. Keeping up with human progress these days has gotten to be a 28.223 hour-a-day job, projected to reach 35.6 by the end of 2003. Better hope those new relievers come online soon.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:18:25 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim Uncle Wolf wrote: > Actually, IMO, it is their Oaths, especially the first one, the same > golden/silk bonds of titanium that keep them from falling, chained to > the Will of Heaven, that allow them to avoid Trauma. Honor and their > Oaths require them to get back into the fight ASAP. Trauma is a luxury > that the Honor-bound can not afford; Trauma is time that an Evil that > managed to kill the Malak is unopposed, running free on Earth. Is it any > wonder that Malakim are usually grim and somber? They come back to the > Good Fight before they have gotten over the killing of their vessel, the > touch of Death on the Undying. The Shadow of Death is still on them. How > could they be easy going, light-hearted, and amiable? But, if you think > their grimness is bad, pity the poor Evil who runs into a Malak who is > still feeling the Touch of Death and looking for someone to take it out on..... Interesting, though it doesn't contradict the FAQ. All the FAQ is is a rule interpretation without explaining WHY it is the way it is. I agree that there is a connection between the oaths and the way the rest of the Malakite resonance works. The very chains of purity and will that 'handicaps' them are the core about which they reform their Forces after corporeal death. Or, to use a different analogy, their oaths are a weighty shield they have picked up. A burden no other Choir can wield, yet it provides a defense for their soul when necessary. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for Data General + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1405 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.