From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Nov 15 18:54:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14372 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:54:57 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA01509 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:47:47 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:47:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199911160047.SAA01509@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1413 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, November 15 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1413 In this digest: Re: IN> One Good Demon Re: IN> One Good Demon Re: IN> One Good Demon IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Re: IN> One Good Demon Re: IN> Fudge -- In Nomine conversion IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com IN> Djinn Crisis Re: IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Re: IN> Djinn Crisis IN> Tenchi -- nononno --- Destiny , in Love... IN> Lucifer IN> David Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host IN> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:56:53 +1100 Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> One Good Demon IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> Azazel: Superior Spirit of Death RE: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Re: IN> Losing Superior status? RE: IN> Lucifer Re: IN> Djinn Crisis Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> Lucifer Re: IN> David Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Re: IN> One Good Demon Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Re: IN> The Fall, Again IN> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:53:36 -0800 RE: IN> The Fall, Again Re: IN> One Good Demon Re: IN> Azazel: Superior Spirit of Death Re: IN> David ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 01:14:38 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon At 9:53 PM -0800 11/15/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > > > Just one thing. He kills people, he's a cop, he has to kill > > >people and rough them up sometimes. The disturbance would attract > > >-someone- eventually, > > > > Eventually, yes -- but it's *very* eventual. He's got a Role/6 as a > > police officer. If he's in the line of duty, a *lot* of Disturbance > > just won't happen. He's as invisible as a Celestial can be. > > Again, who -gave- him the Role? This is a legitimate question. My assumption is two words: Free Lilim. Take a chunk of Geas (and pray you don't get it sold to someone else), and they in turn call in a favor to have people do the necessary recordkeeping for a Role. Then, with the amount of time he's devoted to nothing *but* his Cop Role, it's strengthened over time. Every medal or citation he's received, every Thanksgiving he's worked in a soup kitchen and gotten volunteer credit, every tax form he's filled out and every paycheck he's gotten on his social security number has strengthened his Role. So if he survived the Role/3 he originally bought or assumed, it's strengthened over the years. His engagement will only reinforce that. >If Baal gave it to him (and from what I've read, Superiors have to, >if you want real records and Disturbance masking, -especially- at >level 6) Reference? I thought Superiors were the easiest source of a Role, but by no means the only source. Heck, in a large city *I* can spend money and get a whole new identity. The U.S. Government could build me a Role/6 in the Witness Protection Program. So, said Free Lilim goes to a WPP Bureau Chief and calls in a Geas for a new identity, and slides 'Johnathan' in place. As for Disturbance Masking, I don't think that's fed from a Superior. I think it's fed from the Symphony recognizing the 'existence' of the person who's in the Role. Whereever it came from. >Oh also, killing someone because 'you felt like it' (as is implied >in the writeup, it's a personal thing, no cop has a 'duty' to act as >a vigilante) -isn't- part of the Role of a cop. Frankly, this logic >can then be applied to -any- Role. I didn't see anything in the writeup about casual killing. However, a Cop could certainly kill in the line of duty, and that's the situations that seemed to be coming up. > Much as I liked the writeup, I just can't see anyone with a >Role/6 acting so totally contrary to his Celestial nature and his >Superior just lost track of him, -especially- Baal. And as noted >above, the Disturbance thing doesn't work unless -anyone- with a >human Role can play vigilante under the same rules. I guess I didn't see the vigilante parts. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:56:43 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon Whistling in the Dark wrote: > In other words, it's a colossal waste of resources to create a Role > that itself attracts so much of the wrong kind of attention. I could > see Saminga using Serial Killer Roles in some situations, but not > have the resources to use them commonly. Have you seen the tallies a lot of modern serial killers can rack up? We're talking 20+ to over 30. For Saminga, those are good numbers, well worth creating a Role that can be replaced -and- considering that killing a Vessel doesn't kill the - -Celestial-, still worth it. > Besides, it's a lot cheaper to create a bunch of Undead and send > *them* out, instead. Now there's a question, do Undead create a Disturbance if they don't use Songs? The Possibilities are endless if they don't. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:59:16 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I didn't see anything in the writeup about casual killing. However, > a Cop could certainly kill in the line of duty, and that's the > situations that seemed to be coming up. Ummm...chasing someone down an alley and they vanish? He -did- mention killing criminals in there. > I guess I didn't see the vigilante parts. Check a copy again, can we get a copy of that sent, please? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:57:19 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Is it always necssecary for a demon when redeeming to go to the opposite choir? I mean, I just can't see many Calabim, the fighters of the demonic world, being happy at shifting to messangers, and particularly annoying messangers at that. Malakim yes, Ofanim, no. I also can't see, say, Michael, wanting to waste someone with that much training. I ask this because I was reading the digest, and it got me going to ask for help with what's occured in my chronicle. One of my players is a Calabim of Fire who got really burnt a while ago, and ever since then has been seeking calm. He got into the whole it's all cool mindset, and is wandering around in a pool of calm. But he just can't see himself surviving as an ofanim where it's dissonant not to move, when all he wants is to continue to wander around happy. He'd make a great Elohim or Seraph, but if he redeems as an ofanim I can't see any way to prevent a yo-yo. Help? Kris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:15:22 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au wrote: > Is it always necssecary for a demon when redeeming to go to the opposite choir? I mean, I just can't see many Calabim, the fighters of the demonic world, being happy at shifting to messangers, and particularly annoying messangers at that. Malakim yes, Ofanim, no. I also can't see, say, Michael, wanting to waste someone with that much training. I ask this because I was reading the digest, and it got me going to ask for help with what's occured in my chronicle. > > One of my players is a Calabim of Fire who got really burnt a while ago, and ever since then has been seeking calm. He got into the whole it's all cool mindset, and is wandering around in a pool of calm. But he just can't see himself surviving as an ofanim where it's dissonant not to move, when all he wants is to continue to wander around happy. He'd make a great Elohim or Seraph, but if he redeems as an ofanim I can't see any way to prevent a yo-yo. Okay, you're forgetting that being a Celestial means that your Choir and Band isn't just a set of Resonances and Dissonance conditions, it's your -nature-. Calabim are -entropic- beings whose very nature tends towards destruction. Oh, and for the bit about Ofanim being 'just messengers', read the Ofanite of War, Fire, Lightning, or the Sword Attunements again. Those are -nasty- in battle. It's also a fundamental change. Remember, calm and collected Elohim become raging, emotional monsters. What you were before does not hold up compared to -what you are now-. Remember that angels (especially) and demons have -less- of an individual personality than humans do. Not cripplingly so, but they do. As for the Calabite of Fire, who -says- an Ofanite -can't- be calm? That's like saying a Malakite -can't- have a sense of humour. Though rare, it happens. An Ofanite Resonates for -motion-, not frenzy or hyperactivity. Ballet dancers are controlled, in motion, but often can be -quite- collected and calm. Martial artists fall under this category, too. Your Calabite of Fire there can move, who says it -must- be fast? It's NOT Dissonant for an Onfanite to take his time unless it's an emergency. The Resonance lets you find the fastest way to -stroll- to the park or the best way to hit all the sights along the way. Just let the Ofanite BE, there's no Heavenly mandate that says they -must- be annoying. Where did you get that notion from, anyway? Bad players? Or a misinterpretation of the writeups? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 02:40:16 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon At 10:59 PM -0800 11/15/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > > I didn't see anything in the writeup about casual killing. However, > > a Cop could certainly kill in the line of duty, and that's the > > situations that seemed to be coming up. > > Ummm...chasing someone down an alley and they vanish? He -did- mention >killing criminals in there. Chasing a criminal down an alleyway and killing him would be line of duty if they refused to surrender. The vanishing is more problematic, yes. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 01:02:57 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Fudge -- In Nomine conversion >From: David Edelstein >Sometimes I just get into a project and keep writing it until it's >finished. So you may now find on my homepage a (more or less) complete >set of Fudge rules for In Nomine. > >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AmadanSJG/Innomine/IN-Fudge.htm > Nice work! Thanks ;) This seems a /much/ more comfortable conversion than the GURPS one, to me. I don't suppose you've had a chance to playtest it? jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 01:03:30 -0800 (PST) From: goldencalf@hushmail.com Subject: IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Get HushMail. The world's first free, fully encrypted, web-based email system. Speak freely with HushMail.... http://www.hushmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:23:35 +0800 From: =?iso-8859-1?B?Sm9obiAgJ1RoZSBBcG9jYWx5cHNlJyBLdWFu ?= Subject: IN> Djinn Crisis hey dudes , I've been dying to start an infernal campaign , s'just that I really can't begin to conceptualize what a Djinn's mindset is? Could someone be nice enough to draw up a simple example? [=John "The Apocalypse" Kuan [=Email me at: [=apocalypse_k@graffiti.net [=Or visit my homepage at: [=http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/canopy/8527 [=Add me to your ICQ contact list: [=ICQ UIN:16308629 - Pa[TH]oS [=Or call - Phone :(Malaysia-65)017-4731712 People very rarely think in groups; they talk together, they exchange information, they adjudicate, they make compromises. But they do not think; they do not create. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:09:12 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com goldencalf@hushmail.com wrote: > Get HushMail. The world's first free, fully encrypted, ... Umm, just take a moment and look at that return address. Just look at it. And remember what this list often delves into. Coincidence...? I THINK NOT! Okay, this just begs to be responded to by the list itself in general. Whatcha think, Archangel Beth? Wanna reply as if we were a theological discussion group (which we often drift into) that got -really- offended by this? Man, and right after seeing Dogma and it's Mooby-thing, just...wow. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:27:29 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Djinn Crisis John 'The Apocalypse' Kuan wrote: > hey dudes , I've been dying to start an infernal campaign , s'just that I really can't begin to conceptualize what a Djinn's mindset is? > > Could someone be nice enough to draw up a simple example? Okay. In a nutshell, you are somewhere between a hunter and a stalker. You find people and things, you watch them, and remember, above all else...THEY...ARE...YOURS. Yours to watch, yours to herd, yours to threaten, frighten, make them beg services from. But there's still this -tiny- part of you that still won't let you -directly- hurt them...but if it's going to happen, you can know about it, set it up, you just can't -do- it yourself. Take a Cherub, one of the most loving beings in all of creation. A Cherub's love is pure, open, it doesn't judge, your entire being is - -devoted- to what you have Attuned to. As a Cherub, you -are- a Guardian Angel, to protect and guide and love with every Force you possess. But you were never -appreciated-. Damn humans. You protected and loved with all your heart and they never appreciated it, they -never- lived up to your expectations, did they? But you watched, and you tried to guide, with a heavier and heavier hand...and they still messed it all up. Until one day, you got sick of it. If they didn't want to listen, -fine-, -let- them hurt themselves, see if -you- try to help them again. Now you still watch, you're good at it, but they don't deserve -anything- from you. No one does, your love is too good for -everyone- now, so you crush it down into a tight little ball and hide it away in the darkest corner of your soul, showing only a face of bitterness and (you hope) strength to the world and the other demons. Your noble shape has become an animalistic nightmare, though not as bad as those stupid Shedim, hard to track the things, too. Impudites love to say that -they- understand you, that they want to -care-, but they just want to use you...Balseraphs are even -worse-. Lilim seem so nice, but they're just like humans, always -wanting- something from you, why can't anyone -give- anymore? Then you remember how good -that- worked out. And Habballah...well, just forget about -them-. Some Calabim are okay, but they're all usually a bit tetchy. Only the other Djinn know how -hard- it is to want to be loved, but how much you really have to protect yourself...so much so that you'll never dare show that side of yourself again...not ever ever ever. Hope that helps. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:40:32 +0800 From: =?iso-8859-1?B?Sm9obiAgJ1RoZSBBcG9jYWx5cHNlJyBLdWFu ?= Subject: IN> Tenchi -- nononno --- Destiny , in Love... Excellent , thanks for that now I have something to propose to everyone - its now in my campaign This entity represents a facet of the Symphony. Her word - Sunrise. Her name - Molotiva ... she returned to the Upper heavens .. and she has returned to stirr up an old score because once upon a time She and Yves were in love... JK [=John "The Apocalypse" Kuan [=Email me at: [=apocalypse_k@graffiti.net [=Or visit my homepage at: [=http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/canopy/8527 [=Add me to your ICQ contact list: [=ICQ UIN:16308629 - Pa[TH]oS [=Or call - Phone :(Malaysia-65)017-4731712 People very rarely think in groups; they talk together, they exchange information, they adjudicate, they make compromises. But they do not think; they do not create. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:56:56 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: IN> Lucifer Is it just me, or does Lucifer as described in the books seem to be rather similar to the Patrician of Ankh Morpork from teh discworld series of books? Kris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:56:55 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: IN> David Is it just me, or does David seem a social Darwinist to anyone else? Kris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:56:54 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host "There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organisation. If there are such things as angels I hope they are organised along the lines of the Mafia" Kurt Vonnegut, Sirens of Titan The aim of the war is to win. In the end, if you play by the rules you're at a major disadvantage, because the other side won't. I'm not normally a situational ethicist (although that not normally sort of means that I am), but in the war for the souls of mankind I don't see anything wrong with the ends justifying the means - I seriously doubt that Michael wants to be the one to explain to humanity that because of morals they're going to all be damned to hell for eternity. Let all be allowed, and nothing forbidden. This is after all, the final chance there's ever going to be. Kris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 05:00:31 -0600 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: IN> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:56:53 +1100 "He made me feel like I'd met the ultimate in evil. I don't think anything will really scare me after him." "Ges Vorrutyer? He was just a little villain. An old-fashioned craftsman, making crimes one-off. The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present - they are real." Cordelia Naismith, Aral Vorksagion; Shards of Honour It's worse somehow when they don't even have good honest hatred as an excuse. Kris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 01:54:33 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host From: > Michael is the one who has nursed a grudge for a time period that I'm > guessing is at least two thousand years. i don't htink he's nursed a grudge. he just thinks what he's always thought - that dominic is wasting heaven's time by picking on angels rather than demons > Also, from Michael's perspective, I would say > that since God restored him to his position, he would consider questions of > his orders to be questioning God. there's no evidence that he thought like this when he was leader of heaven's armies before. if that was the case, why didn't he kill/throw out dominic when he first put michael on trial? liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:08:36 -0600 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 12:25 AM Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon >At 9:53 PM -0800 11/15/99, Steel Angel wrote: >>Whistling in the Dark wrote: >>Oh also, killing someone because 'you felt like it' (as is implied >>in the writeup, it's a personal thing, no cop has a 'duty' to act as >>a vigilante) -isn't- part of the Role of a cop. Frankly, this logic >>can then be applied to -any- Role. > >I didn't see anything in the writeup about casual killing. However, >a Cop could certainly kill in the line of duty, and that's the >situations that seemed to be coming up. A cop *can* kill in the line of duty, but it's unusual. And in most departments, when you kill someone, you are placed on paid suspension until an investigation to determine whether it is justified is completed. Any police officer that kills more than two times is going to stand out like a sore thumb. It will make news reports. His bosses will start to wonder whether he's worth the trouble and bad press. If you develop this reputation, the killings had better be ironclad justified. This is *not* a good way to hide from Baal. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:15:46 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host >>>Michael is the one who has nursed a grudge for a time period that I'm guessing is at least two thousand years.<<< More. But he has never defied God or acted capriciously with his grudge. >>>(I assume the GMG timeline will have the exact trial date.)<<< Yes. >>>Also, from Michael's perspective, I would say that since God restored him to his position, he would consider questions of his orders to be questioning God.<<< No. He'd consider it to be questioning Michael, and Michael doesn't think he's God. And more importantly, he wouldn't *issue* orders that are petty and stupid. >>>While perhaps it would be a bit much to have him kill Dominic, I think he would throw Dominic out of Heaven (like he did Lucifer).<<< No, that would be petty and stupid. >>>As such, I think it's completely likely that he'd move them to the front lines.<<< No, that would be petty and stupid. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:15:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Azazel: Superior Spirit of Death Steel Angel wrote: "Also, I can't see -anyone- holding a Demonic Word without Lucifer's say so. Especially not if some Outcast Grigori was trying to work with her. I don't think a Heavenly Word could help graft a Demonic one onto someone. Also, I'm sure -most- Princes wopuld have preferred Saminga...no poaching and -far- easier to manipulate." Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the write-up: She doesn't hold the Demonic Word of Death; she either shares the Divine Word of Death with Azrael or she has a neutral Word of Death. The Word Mechanics were handled by God Himself, as was providing Azrael as an ally. She's "on a secret mission for God." Likewise, God has presumably positioned her in Infernal political history so that she can dig her defenses deep enough before anyone acts against her in any massive way. (You can do a lot with that particular handwave.) As for her popularity, my impression was the Saminga was massively UNpopular with other Princes, and a new "Prince" who presents herself as an intelligent and practical supplier of guns-for-hire would be pretty acceptable to a lot of them. No, they don't like the poaching thing. But some of them, at least, feel fairly safe against it. Nybbas's damned are hypnotized couch potatoes who are too numb to despair. Beleth doesn't draw Essence from damned souls, but from terrified living humans, as far as I can tell. There may be a few others. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:17:02 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) You are the GM you can do whatever you like especially if the players want it to happen too. As AA Beth has often commented there are no cannon police. Do it. Have fun. Tell a good story. Trent Ofanite of Doubt - -----Original Message----- From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 12:57 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Is it always necssecary for a demon when redeeming to go to the opposite choir? I mean, I just can't see many Calabim, the fighters of the demonic world, being happy at shifting to messangers, and particularly annoying messangers at that. Malakim yes, Ofanim, no. I also can't see, say, Michael, wanting to waste someone with that much training. I ask this because I was reading the digest, and it got me going to ask for help with what's occured in my chronicle. One of my players is a Calabim of Fire who got really burnt a while ago, and ever since then has been seeking calm. He got into the whole it's all cool mindset, and is wandering around in a pool of calm. But he just can't see himself surviving as an ofanim where it's dissonant not to move, when all he wants is to continue to wander around happy. He'd make a great Elohim or Seraph, but if he redeems as an ofanim I can't see any way to prevent a yo-yo. Help? Kris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:28:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Losing Superior status? Remember, on the issue of how Lucifer hands out Words and Princedoms, he is not only trying to muster forces against Heaven, he is also trying to keep a balance of forces in hell that will not depose him. He's perfectly capable of making weak Princes whose only function is to keep strong Princes from getting any stronger, or to keep them from banding together and getting ideas about independence or supplanting. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:37:48 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Lucifer Ha! I think you're right. 8) The Patrician is so cool and a perfect model for GMing Lucifer in my campaign. Trent Ofanite of Doubt - -----Original Message----- From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 4:57 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Lucifer Is it just me, or does Lucifer as described in the books seem to be rather similar to the Patrician of Ankh Morpork from teh discworld series of books? Kris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:58:39 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Djinn Crisis - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 http://welcome.to/EvM_Gamers "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" - -----Original Message----- From: John 'The Apocalypse' Kuan To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 3:25 AM Subject: IN> Djinn Crisis >hey dudes , I've been dying to start an infernal campaign , s'just that I really can't begin to conceptualize what a Djinn's mindset is? > >Could someone be nice enough to draw up a simple example? > http://www.btinternet.com/~jhart/IN_djinn.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:01:23 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host At 01:54 AM 11/15/99 -0000, you wrote: >there's no evidence that he thought like this when he was leader of heaven's >armies before. if that was the case, why didn't he kill/throw out dominic >when he first put michael on trial? When, exactly, was Michael the leader of God's armies? Unless I missed something, the position was Uriel's until he was called Up, and Laurence's after that. Did I miss something? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:20:56 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer From: > Is it just me, or does Lucifer as described in the books seem to be rather similar to the Patrician of Ankh Morpork from teh discworld series of books? So *now* we know why Lucifer is too busy to directly administrate Hell... (No, it hadn't occurred to me before. But now that you mention it, it makes so much sense it's almost frightening.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:27:57 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> David At 9:56 PM +1100 11/15/99, bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au wrote: >Is it just me, or does David seem a social Darwinist to anyone else? Oh, *heck* yeah. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:31:07 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host At 10:01 AM -0700 11/15/99, EDG wrote: >At 01:54 AM 11/15/99 -0000, you wrote: > > >there's no evidence that he thought like this when he was leader of heaven's > >armies before. if that was the case, why didn't he kill/throw out dominic > >when he first put michael on trial? > >When, exactly, was Michael the leader of God's armies? Unless I missed >something, the position was Uriel's until he was called Up, and Laurence's >after that. > >Did I miss something? Before Michael's trial, he was the general of God's armies. He resigned after the trial, and Uriel became the leader. From that point forward, it was Uriel until Laurence took over. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:26:45 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) At 5:57 PM +1100 11/15/99, bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au wrote: > >One of my players is a Calabim of Fire who got really burnt a while >ago, and ever since then has been seeking calm. He got into the >whole it's all cool mindset, and is wandering around in a pool of >calm. But he just can't see himself surviving as an ofanim where >it's dissonant not to move, when all he wants is to continue to >wander around happy. He'd make a great Elohim or Seraph, but if he >redeems as an ofanim I can't see any way to prevent a yo-yo. Consider the maker of a zen rock garden. One who rakes the sand and places the stone perfectly, and who uses muscles and motion to form order from chaos, spirit into the real. David would approve of that, I think. Consider Johnny Appleseed, never stopping as he walks the land, planting apple trees. Novalis would like that, probably. Consider the travelling salesman, moving from city to city, arranging deals and managing his territory. Marc must need several of these at any given time. Consider the couriers and messangers Laurence must need, from the front to the lines. There are many Wheels who are calm and at peace, their motion reflecting this. (And as for the desire for the fighters of Hell not wanting a noncombat role in Heaven -- it seems to me that the the Ofanim are one of the better combat angels.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:49:36 CST From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon >Comments? Death Threats? Insults to my personal hygene? >Timothy, Angel of Rambling Hey, I like it! I've wondered for a long time if there was a way for a celestial to walk the line between Heaven and Hell, without eventually redeeming. Looks like there is. Selfless and Angry? What a combination. Certainly could make life interesting. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:16:22 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Trent wrote: > Is it always necssecary for a demon when redeeming to go to the opposite > choir? Canonically, yes. Feel free to break canon in your campaign, though! For those who want more details: Think of every demonic band as a 'broken' version of an opposing angelic choir (let's leave Lilim out of the picture for now). Redeeming is 'fixing' the broken angel and making them work right. So a broken Ofanite becomes a fixed one, etc. Anything else is equivalent to a totally strip-down and rebuild (i.e. the original celestial is gone and his Forces were used to make a new one). As always, Lilim are a special case, due, probably, to their unique Superior. Bright Lilim are very close, in terms of powers, to their original sisters. If anything, this makes the correspondence even easier. Still, there is something inherently flawed (demonic) in every regular Lilim that can be fixed by redemption. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:28:28 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Again Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:35:09 -0800 From: Steel Angel >Adam Canning wrote: >> Of course taking this seriously relies on Gabriel evaporating anyone who >> attempted to change this document. Which considering she is a seraph and >> short on temper would seem reasonable. > Nitpick! (my first). Gabriel is an Ofanite. Woo! >- - Abracax: Shedite of Riots Oi! No fair possessing me so you can make me talk gibberish to get the Nitpicking Essence. You are however correct, Gabriel in canon is an ofanite. I still can't think why she would lie about this unless the true reason for the fall is something much worse... I can't gain Nitpicking essence having had that rite removed by my Archangel after my last Shedim infestation. And besides nitpicking myself would be silly. But the first of the two metatrons that turns up in Jewish Kabalism is Jahoel [the lesser YHWH], not Johael. The second [six syllable] Metatron is Enoch, who appears to have been transubstasiated somewhere between 957 and 993 after the Eden Experiment. Not having seen the timeline I can't compare that with the listed Death of a Metatron. Adam Note some Kabalistic text mention one, some the other and some two Metatrons, thus the above. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:02:45 -0600 From: "Tom Swenson" Subject: IN> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:53:36 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2F60.12D3CEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2F60.12D3CEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2F60.12D3CEA0-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:26:39 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> The Fall, Again > You are however correct, Gabriel in canon is an ofanite. I still can't > think why she would lie about this unless the true reason for the fall is > something much worse... When did she lie? I think I missed something. > But the first of the two metatrons that turns up in Jewish Kabalism is > Jahoel [the lesser YHWH], not Johael. The second [six syllable] Metatron is > Enoch, who appears to have been transubstasiated somewhere between 957 and > 993 after the Eden Experiment. > > Not having seen the timeline I can't compare that with the listed Death of > a Metatron. And here I'd thought Metatron was supposedly a Seraph not a Kryo. > Note some Kabalistic text mention one, some the other and some two > Metatrons, thus the above. Whoa. "Kabalistic text" - methinks someone is using theological jargon. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:18:54 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon > Is that -possible-? To have a Calabite with Selfless? I doubt he'd get >anywhere in Baal's ranks if someone noticed. Again, as interesting as it is, >canonically, this idea just seems to be somewhat flawed. Which is why its just IMC, in which it works (he was a running NPC). He started at 2 Celestial foces so his Selfless Discord just made him seem like a team player. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:29:39 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Azazel: Superior Spirit of Death >Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the write-up: She doesn't hold >the Demonic Word of Death; she either shares the Divine Word of Death >with Azrael or she has a neutral Word of Death. The Word Mechanics >were handled by God Himself, as was providing Azrael as an ally. >She's "on a secret mission for God." So is she still a demon? Because if she's not then she is in major trouble with Hell. And if she is she's still in major trouble because Lucifer might decide to see what happens if he applies a Word to her. And she would still be unpopular for several reasons (that entire second death thing being top on the list). Not to mention if Lucifer doesn't like her all the Princes might find they have a strange and sudden dislike for her. Not to mention the fact Asmodeus is definetly goin to be against souls having a way out of Hell, even if its oblivion. She'll be declared Renegade and fair game rather quickly. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 00:27:57 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> David From: > Is it just me, or does David seem a social Darwinist to anyone else? erm, i dunno, from what sociology i vaguely recall it doesn't seem to click for me. i don't think david is entirely a "survival of the fittest" guy, except on the largest scale. social darwinism would seem to me to suggest societies where the strong prey on the weak, where the "cream" rises to the top on the bodies of those below them. a society like that is pretty much inherently selfish and internally divided. david wants to build strong communities with close ties among members. i can see him encouraging a little conflict between nations, because it leads to patriotism and the like. but encouraging communities to fight each other all the time and prey on the weak is what led magog to falling. hmmm, can't remember if i mentioned this before, but one thing that has crossed my mind is, what do people think david's opinion on fascism is? i could see him going for it liam ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1413 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.