From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 1 23:16:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03989 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:16:36 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA06264 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:13:33 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:13:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199912020513.XAA06264@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1441 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 1 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1441 In this digest: Re: IN> The Humanity attunement Re: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances Re: IN> Vessels Re: IN> She's like the Wind... Re: IN> Humanity Attunement in the Celestial Realms IN> how demons figure these things out? IN> Dark Choirs Re: IN> Words, distinctions. IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions Re: IN> Vessels Re: IN> Words, distinctions. Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances Superior's Powers (was Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions) RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances Re: Superior's Powers (was Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions) Re: Superior's Powers (was Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions) RE: Superior's Powers (was Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions) RE: IN> The good ol' Humanity attunement IN> Drugged Celestials IN> Mercurians of Lightning IN> Seravnts Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Malakim IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement RE: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:40:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity attunement At 10:24 PM -0600 11/30/99, David Edelstein wrote: >NOTE FOR ELIZABETH: Consider this an official request for canon >clarification. "This attunement lets a demon pass as a human under any circumstance, to anyone -- except Lucifer." Considering that there are _lots_ of ways to reveal a Humanitied demon as a celestial with clever uses of attunements otherwise, and what it's supposed to do, and that it mentions _the Lightbringer_ by name as the _sole exception_ -- I think it's The Most Powerful ability, and unless SJ himself decides to over-rule me, then it will allow a demon to pass for human No Matter What. Yeah, so Marc just used his Superior-grade Mercurian resonance on the demon -- he doesn't get "Hell" as point of origin. He gets Pittsburg. Or maybe Corpus Christi. (He might still get "hobbies: seducing fourteen year olds and selling them to pimps," though. Oops.) This doesn't mean that the demon might not be an extraordinary human, but no more than 6 Forces worth (i.e., Soldier material). Maybe 7, if this is pretty common in a GM's campaign. Resonances and attunements give back false information, up to the max of a plausible human. Remember, "UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES." Body hits... I could see an arguement both ways. Currently, I think they keep their body hits. (So if they _don't go down_ in combat, that's a potential givaway. OTOH, if they don't know enough to play dead...) I would have no argument with a GM who decided that becoming "human in almost every regard" included body-hits being reduced to something plausible for a powerful human. Their major weakness _would_ be Seraphim -- who might or might not be able to ask a question that in no way, shape, form, or fashion could be twisted into a plausible human response. But there's just too many superlatives here. "under any circumstances." "to anyone." "except Lucifer." I can't justify letting every Tom, Dick, and Vapulan Impudite eyeball the demon and say, "Oh, look, 9 Forces. Think he's a human? Naaaaaah." Not when the only exception is the Lightbringer himself, who is generally considered more powerful than anyone except God, and he's working on that one... (Now, everyone else can argue about how _they'd_ treat it, but that's my canon answer, and the only way I'm going to change it is if my Superior tells me to; is it really a big enough deal that I should bother him about it specially?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:11:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances At 1:54 AM -0400 12/1/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >>>No, no. Most angels have nonviolent resonances. But the Merc resonance, >>>without the APG expansion, was no better than the Elohite or Malakite >>>resonances, and maybe not quite as good. [...] >>Now, tell me that the Mercurian resonance is "wimpy." > >Hey. *I* never said that. Just that it wasn't head and shoulders over the >Mal and Elohite resonances. I'd say it's on a par with them, in a slightly different area, myself. >But, YES, firm agreement, those check digit tables can be a pain. PCs >*will* go around resonating people more or less for the heck of it. >Especially the ones that require the GM to come up with multiple pieces of >information on the spot. [snip] Make them wait their turns, seriously. Malakite rolls, you come up with the deeds. Elohite rolls, you say, "Hang on, lemme finish with the bartender. Now, your turn." >Incidentally, I'd like to see a Canon ruling on the Merc resonance and >Roles. I've been playing it that the Merc gets the skinny on the Role, not >the underlying celestial. If the Role is skimpy, I give the Merc a >Perception roll, minus the level of the Role, to notice something funny. > >Has this been wrong all along? There are a few different ways that's been handled -- it _is_ fuzzy in the book. (Makes note to fix this in 2/e.) IIRC, the two most interesting that I've seen are: * Mercurian gets the Role to the extent the Role covers, the reality after that. * Mercurian has to beat the Role level with his check digit; if he doesn't, he gets Role data. If he does, he gets true data. (This does suggest that he can't beat a Role/6 without being very close or touching the target, to boost his check digit a la p. 57 (I think that is?), with the CD modifiers.) IOW, there's not currently a firm canon on that, but I think either of those two might be plausible. (If there's one that Really Doesn't Work in practice, I'd like to hear about it...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:24:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vessels At 6:36 PM -0800 12/1/99, Azrael wrote: >1) Do Vessels die from a headshot? There are no hit locations in IN. However, on p. 121 of the GMG, there is the optional rule of assigning extra damage for "vitals" or simply ruling that with a minimum check digit, the attack is fatal. >2) If vessels don't respire, but have to breath, then couldn't they breathe any >gas if there is suffiecient pressure and suffer no ill effects, like frex >the vessel dying? Poison poisons them. They need human-normal air. >3)What are the maths (i.e. Roll against Characteristic, damage = check digit >plus power, plus strength plus the value of the dollar etc..) for Numinous >Corpus i.e. is strength included in the rolls, do the damage bonus' given >for kicks and punches apply (Pg. 65) (If not why not!!!!) etc.. NC are used with Fighting skill. I would consider them "weapons" just to save my sanity, and use the Power and Acc of the NC alone instead of the penalties for normal, bare-handed kicks and punches. In general, what you're doing with a Numinous Corpus is what you'd do with a weapon -- the only exception that comes to mind immediately is Feet, where I could see an arguement for using the Kicking modifiers on p. 65 as _well_ as them. I wouldn't account for the "some kind of protection" thing, though -- I'd say the Feet modifiers over-ruled those. >4) Do distubance trace to the source or place of the disturbance? Either or both, as the GM rules. See p. 55, where it says, "At the GM's discretion, the tracker may be led to the physical site of the disturbance, or the celestial who caused it, or to both in succession." My personal terminology for disturbance that leads to the person who caused it is "sticky disturbance." It sticks to you. O:> >5)How do multiple attacks with feet work, the explanation is quite convoluted. On your turn, you can attack with Fighting skill and your Feet _and_ some attack which is clearly a hand-only attack that won't throw your balance off so much that you can't use Feet. A Shortsword or Dagger uses Precision, not Strength; Fighting uses Strength. You can use Feet and a shortsword or club, but not Feet and a long-sword or battleaxe. If I'm not forgetting anything. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:46:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> She's like the Wind... At 1:31 AM -0400 12/1/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >Give her a level or two of a Disguise skill to fix that (not a skill in >canon, but an obvious one to add). I'd make it Knowledge (Disguise), myself... O:> For true complications, you could add her skill level to her Perception to spot _other_ disguised people, if she specifically said she was doing that. But that second one is way non-canon use of skills. If plausible. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:34:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Humanity Attunement in the Celestial Realms At 8:42 PM -0600 11/30/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >Is the Humanity Attunement limited only to the Corporeal Realm or could a >Gamester use it to pose as a Damned Soul? If the later is possible, you >could run some interesting undercover sting operations in Hell. That's a case where I'd say it's up to the GM. I'm sure that, at a minimum, it's _RUMORED_ that Gamesters can somehow fake being souls... But then, it's probably also rumored that they can pretend to be Superiors, other Bands, demonlings, and pieces of wall... The Game knows everything, don't you know? O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 13:45:43 -0700 From: darkelf@ecentral.com Subject: IN> how demons figure these things out? {...} > > In other words, are there ways for demons to get useful information about > angelic weaknesses, such as Cherub attunements, or just information about > what choir they are facing? IMC, a Bal of Fate went out and mapped a pair of Cherubim's attunements. He started with the angels (who had been *so loud* that every demon in town knew they were there). He endangered one attunement, got a Cherub's attention, got his Soldier to harass another, got the other Cherub's attention, etc. He wasn't ever *sure* what the angels were attuned to, but he took an educated guess. He never continued endangering things long enough for the Cherub to get there, just did enough to upset the Cherub and get her running this way and that way. By the end of the night, the angels knew what had happened, but it was far too late. Kat - -- Your village called. Their idiot is missing. http://themaelstrom.com/darkelf/fugue -- In Nomine: Fugue ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:00:06 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> Dark Choirs I've been working on this for a while, its been kinda difficult and I'd like some feedback. As a note it is ment to be used with Bright Bands in the game also. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some angels don't accidently Fall, they willingly give themselves to the Pit. These angels don't join Bands but become members of one of the Dark Choirs. They still become isolated in their own personal symphony, however they can still extract information from the true Symphony. For all intents and purposes they are demons, when they regenerate essence and dealing with going to Heaven. When they accumulate dissonance they suffer as a demon would, and have to be Redeemed like any other demon. They have access to the Band resonance, however everytime its used they have a chance of becoming a member of the Band. This is determined by something simular to a dissoance roll, using the cd of the Band resonance roll as the number to match or beat. Members of Dark Choirs are rare because most angels Fall before they reach a Demon Prince to attune them to their Word and allow them to become demonic. Also many tend to use both their available resonances and thus become members of Bands. The primary differences between a member of a Dark Choir and a member of an Angelic Choir is the fact they are no longer tether to the Symphony and as such their perspectives are twisted (at least from Heaven's point of view). Lucifer's symphony is the center of their universe now, all the information that used to go through the filter of God's Symphony now passes through the filter of Hell's symphony. Dark Serpahim - The Questioners These demons are often employed to evaluate the reports given by other servitors to their Demon Prince. They do not often employ the Balseraph resonance, though a few do indulge in this practice. Most Seraphim become Dark by realizing that God's Truth is not the only Truth, it is merely the loudest. They also tend to start thinking about the fact that Lucifer was spreading his ideas when still a Seraph and speaking the angelic tongue, so what he said had to be True. Dark Seraphim are very fond of spreading the idea that Lucifer is one of them and not a Balseraph. Balseraphs disagree vemently. Dark Seraphim and Balseraphs do not get along well, esepcially since Dark Seraphim are often used by Princes to get an accurate report out of the Liars. More Dark Seraphim vanish without a trace than any other demons. Dark Cherubim - The Guardians of Hell Very rare demons as they often find it easier to use the Djinn resonance they are valued merely for the fact that they can have more attunements. They are often assigned to protect things instead of stalking things. Their brand of protection is obsessive and along the lines of imprisoning people for their own good. They get along well with their Djinn brethern, as they can get eachother. Dark Ofanim - The Frenzied These demons are rampaging swirls of energy that never stop moving. They have very little in the way of self control anymore, feeling freed. Their are a lot who become Calabim because of their tendancy to use both resonances available to them (hit and run tactics are very popular among them while they remain Dark Ofanim). They do not have problems getting along with Calabim, and vice versa. Dark Elohim - The Cold Hearted Objective to the core these demons have no feeling and no true empathy anymore. They very rarely employ their other resonance, mostly its only employed when its essential for completing an assignment or getting what they need. They don't get along with Habbalah, for obvious reasons. Dark Malakim - Don't Exist No Malakim has marched itself to Hell and asked to sign up, yet. Since their dissonance condition would remain the same they would most likely become Discordiant wrecks before long. Dark Kyriotates - The Slavers These demons either last as are for a few days, or for their entire existance. Those who can't stand having to care about the condition of the bodies will purposefully become Shedim, others will often take roles as spies or just be careful with the bodies they borrow (or will take oppertunities that their Superiors give them for special vessels). They tend to get along with Shedim, and they can make excellent teams. Dark Mercurians - The Betrayers These demons find humans incredibly amusing, and think they are highly unworthy of the attention they receive but are useful enough to be maintained as servants. Lots of them do use both resonances available to them, and thus tend to become Impudites. Dark Mercurians and Impudites do get along with eachother, and often trade stories about their human pets. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do plan on running a campeign with Bright Bands and Dark Choirs in them so I wanted some feedback on the Dark Choirs before moving onto the next step of writing up attunements for them. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:54:03 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Words, distinctions. >> Well, IMC I tend to give out 1-2 character points per hour of play. So, an >> average evening of play -- dinnertime to 11-12 -- typically generates 5-10 >> points. I suspect this is a bit high, but OTOH my campaigns can be rather >> dangerous -- Dissonance and Discord are fairly common, combat can be >> lethal, and force-stripping is not unknown. > >Urgle. I tend to give out one or two points per *adventure*, which is >usually 3 or 4 evenings. Re-urgle. If you're playing weekly, that means it would take a character... umm, about three months to earn a single Force, and that's assuming he didn't buy anything else. I've already acknowledged that my numbers are high; I think you're holding down the other end of the bell curve there. >But then again, my players delight in spending >hours debating fine moral points. OK, definitely different from mine. I had one theologian for a while, but he got ignored a lot (and, alas, shouted down once or twice). It occasionally occurred to me that if there had been a second one like him, together they would have seriously changed the character of the game. >Often all I have to do is introduce a >situation, and for the next 20 minutes they roleplay their character's >reactions, having a fine time. Again, I've got one guy who is that kind of detailed roleplayer (Ed the Seraph). The others are meat-and-potatoes gamers who are enjoying it for the cinematic fun (well, and maybe for the occasional flash of relevance that they wouldn't get from, say, AD&D). >It's great fun to watch, and I can catch >up on my knitting, if I so choose, since I am then completely superfluous >to their enjoyment. Oh, I've had groups like that. As long as I get *my* enjoyment too, that's completely OK. >It usually takes at least two sessions to get through >24 hours in game time, and sometimes more than that. Wow. Okay. ...is it a big group? Many years ago, I swore an Oath that I would never GM more than five players, and 3-4 are my greatly preferred numbers. At the moment I've got 4 (which means that, gamers being gamers, 3 usually show up, though not always the same 3). They're experienced players, so things tend to bounce along right quick-like. >It really depends on what type of campaign you want. For my group, the >fun is in exploring their characters and how they interact with the world >and each other, so gaining lots of character points or distinctions is not >crucial to them. Mmm. Well, mine don't seem to see it as *crucial*, but they definitely like picking these things up. "Tenth Force! On my way!" "Okay, I want the boss's Merc attunement. That's really going to help the next hostage situation." >As always, your mileage may vary... Yep. The point is to have fun... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:17:29 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions Okay, here's the deal. It is well established in cannon that a character (player or non) may be granted by a Superior the Attunements of another Choir (or band). This is usually a reward for great services rendered, or whatever. By the same token, is it possible (in cannon) to give a character another choir or bands Dissonance conditions? Imagine a Malakite who could not lie...or a Kyriotate with Oaths... Possibilities? I am not even thinking it would be, intrinsically, a punishment. It might just as well be done as a prerequisite for earning the associated attunements. Does this work? - -Daiv ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com my mother once said that boy is stranger than a three toed barking frog - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:38:28 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions From: "David Barr" > Possibilities? I am not even thinking it would be, intrinsically, a > punishment. It could make a great punishment, though. Imagine the Discord possibilities here... *g* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 07:47:34 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels > >3)What are the maths (i.e. Roll against Characteristic, damage = check > digit plus power, > > plus strength plus the value of the dollar etc..) for Numinous Corpus i.e. > is strength included in the > >rolls, do the damage bonus' given for kicks and punches apply (Pg. 65) (If > not why not!!!!) etc.. > > > depends on the NC. if it's something like Claws, use the Claws CD during > combat with regular rules to hit, etc. What Imeant to say is: Do you include strength in rolls for NC attacks? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:05:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Words, distinctions. At 3:54 PM -0400 12/1/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >>> Well, IMC I tend to give out 1-2 character points per hour of play. [...] >> >>Urgle. I tend to give out one or two points per *adventure*, which is >>usually 3 or 4 evenings. > >Re-urgle. If you're playing weekly, that means it would take a >character... umm, about three months to earn a single Force, and that's >assuming he didn't buy anything else. > >I've already acknowledged that my numbers are high; I think you're holding >down the other end of the bell curve there. What I've seen as a "reasonable" rate is around 1-2 a session, with 2 being for accomplishing real progress, and a 3 or 4 as a reward for an adventure well-done. Mind, we don't do much earth-shattering... But that's not the sort of campaign we _want_. O:> We don't do gobs of in-character talk (1-2 Ofanim in the party, depending on who shows up...), but we don't save the universe, either. I shudder to think what we'd do with 4-8 per session... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:07:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions At 1:17 PM -0800 12/1/99, David Barr wrote: >By the same token, is it possible (in cannon) (Canon. Cannon are big guns. Canon is the body of literature considered official. IIRC the definition right.) >to give a character another choir or bands Dissonance conditions? Generally, only via Discord or the Destiny Master Distinction, which also gives resonance. In canon. In your own game, do what you will... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:22:43 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions At 16:17 -0500 12/1/99, David Barr wrote: >Okay, here's the deal. It is well established in cannon that a >character (player or non) may be granted by a Superior the >Attunements of another Choir (or band). This is usually a reward for >great services rendered, or whatever. >By the same token, is it possible (in cannon) to give a character >another choir or bands Dissonance conditions? Imagine a Malakite who >could not lie...or a Kyriotate with Oaths... The cases are rather distinct -- the former can only be done if the character is already attuned to the Superior's Word, and such attunements are always (supposedly) something to do with the Superior's Word. Choir/Band dissonance conditions are something entirely separate from the Superior's Word -- they're related to the intrinsic natures of the Choirs and Bands. A Superior can't change one Choir/Band into another, so it seems unlikely that they could take the dissonance part of that nature and graft it onto a different one. There are three obvious loopholes: - If the Superior's Word is close to a Choir/Band nature, then they could probably impose additional dissonance conditions that were actually Word-related, but were essentially the same as the Choir/Band ones. The two cases that immediately come to my mind are Litheroy, whose Word of "Revelation" is sufficiently close to "Truth" that all his people have essentially the Seraph dissonance; and Zadkiel, whose Word of "Protection" is one where I could see her imposing something like the Cherub dissonance on her people. - Malakim can take an Oath on just about anything, and it then becomes a dissonance condition for them. - Any Superior can inflict a Geas as a Discord on one of their Servitors; the requirements of the Geas might be fairly indistinguisable from a dissonance condition, except for its limited duration. The last approach is the one I'd use, if I wanted a general mechanism, rather than making the Choirs and Bands less unique. >Possibilities? I am not even thinking it would be, intrinsically, a >punishment. It might just as well be done as a prerequisite for >earning the associated attunements. I don't think I'd want to do that -- in many cases the attunements aren't all *that* Choir/Band specific, so there's no real justification for tying them to the Choir/Band dissonance in any way. (Others, of course, *are* tightly coupled, to the point where they can't be taken by others at all.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:33:02 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions At 01:17 PM 12/1/99 -0800, you wrote: >Possibilities? I am not even thinking it would be, intrinsically, a >punishment. It might just as well be done as a prerequisite for >earning the associated attunements. Check out Yves's Master of Divine Knowledge. It's certainly possible. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:37:34 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome V" Subject: Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions okay, first, you can't receive an attunement that works off a resonance you don't have. those attunements have started being labeled as (Restricted) in the Superiors books (yay). so, if that Merc attunement works off a resonance, tough luck. as for dissonance...I'd probably just slap them with some specialized Discord that mimicked it. - -Dennis Groome V / "Amo Nympham" http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me." -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 08:50:05 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances Elizabeth wrote: > * Mercurian has to beat the Role level with his check digit; if > he doesn't, > he gets Role data. If he does, he gets true data. (This does suggest that > he can't beat a Role/6 without being very close or touching the target, > to boost his check digit a la p. 57 (I think that is?), with the CD > modifiers.) The problem I see with this one is that it's an 'all or nothing' approach. The Mercurian either doesn't beat the Role level and gets a little bit of information about a 'human', or he does beat the Role level and gets a *lot* of information about the demon. I'd be tempted to alter it slightly further. If the Mercurian's check digit is equal to or less than the Role level, they get the Role information. If the CD is greater than the Role Level, they get information on the demon *at a final CD of the real CD minus the Role level*. So a Mercurian resonating on a demon with a level 5 Role gets a CD 6, they get CD 1 information on the demon. Yes, it makes Roles more effective, but aren't they designed to disguise the celestial to the Symphony? This is off the top of my head, does anyone violently agree or disagree? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:26:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances At 8:50 AM +1100 12/2/99, Leath Sheales wrote: [snip] >This is off the top of my head, does anyone violently agree or disagree? It's more detailed and resonable in some ways, but BOY is it math-heavy to explain. That's the main reason I didn't suggest something similiar to it myself. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:30:42 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Superior's Powers (was Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions) About resonance restricted attunements: It says in the book that all Superiors have the attunements/distinctions they give out and then some in the way of powers. What about those attunements which are resonance restricted? They must have them, but does that mean Superiors have multiple resonances or that they can use the attunement as if they had the resonance but not use the resonance for anything else? Also I think its pretty safe to say that Yves/Kronos both have every angelic resonance, and probably don't have to worry about dissidence from them that much. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:48:12 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances Elizabeth wrote: > It's more detailed and resonable in some ways, but BOY is it math-heavy > to explain. That's the main reason I didn't suggest something similiar > to it myself. O:> *grin*, Yeah, it's more maths heavy to explain, but once you know what it's saying, it's quite intuitive. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:16:23 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Superior's Powers (was Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions) At 4:30 PM -0700 12/1/99, Tim Groth wrote: >About resonance restricted attunements: >It says in the book that all Superiors have the attunements/distinctions >they give out and then some in the way of powers. What about those >attunements which are resonance restricted? They must have them, but does >that mean Superiors have multiple resonances The GMG, p. 100. "Use Multiple Resonances." Listed as one of the things Superiors are known to be able to do. AAs don't get demonic resonances, DPs (with the possible exception of Kronos) don't get angelic ones. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:27:56 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: Superior's Powers (was Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions) Thanks, I need to get the damned GMG but my local store doesn't have it yet. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:51:15 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: Superior's Powers (was Re: IN> Aquiring Dissonance Conditions) Timothy wrote: does > that mean Superiors have multiple resonances or that they can use the > attunement as if they had the resonance but not use the resonance for > anything else? I tend to fudge over it and assume that Superiors are pretty much beyond the whole resonance thing. Yes, they still have their resonance, but if they concentrate, they can focus enough of their being into duplicating the other resonances, allowing them to possess all of their attunements. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 18:47:45 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: RE: IN> The good ol' Humanity attunement >>>Or maybe if you "kill" the human -- doing enough damage to kill a normal human, that is -- the attunement breaks.<<< Why a normal human? The attunement says nothing about passing as a "normal human." Define "normal human," anyway. How about a human with 3 Corporeal Forces, Strength 10, and Toughness/2 (50 Body hits). Theoretically, this could be a mundane, but a human that tough would still probably make most celestials suspicious. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 18:50:04 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Drugged Celestials >>>Actually, I don't think they're supposed to be particularly immune to drugs, other than the fact that they have higher tolerance due to higher stats, and that they don't *have* to eat to drink, so it may be hard to get drugs into them. But I believe chloroform or general sleep drugs ought to knock them out. I'd have to go check the drug rules to be sure, though.<<< Celestials aren't immune to drugs. They just get to add their Corporeal Forces to their resistance rolls. (And going celestial would instantly nullify the effects of any drug.) They are immune to disease, however. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 18:55:49 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Mercurians of Lightning >>>It's been clarified in the GURPS IN draft -- it still requires Essence. I assume this clarification will make it into the IN FAQ or errata at some point.<<< If the GURPS conversion is going to be canon for In Nomine rules (which is an unbelievably bad idea, but anyway), it would be nice if they'd be syncronized in some comprehensible fashion. I assumed that Mercurians of Lightning had to spend Essence on their attunement anyway. But if they have 5 Ethereal Forces, they can "hum" the Song.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 11:26:34 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Seravnts Does a servant imp (Lv 2) need to but avessel to manifest on the Corporeal plane, bought out of its own characters points or can it manifest on its own, or is the vessel provided free of Charge? How much does itcost to ugrade the servants' level as a resource? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 22:13:18 -0600 From: "Matt W." Subject: Re: IN> Malakim >>best example IMHO of the Malakite of Eli attunement is Jackie Chan. >Yeah! >>He grabs a towel, a ladder or anything that happens to be sitting around >>and opens up a family size can of whoop ass on whoever is around. >Yes, exactly. >It's not the most powerful of the Mal attunements, but it may be the coolest.>> Oh yes, it is the coolest. I've had people join my gaming group just to play Malakim of Eli. I've had entire bands of demons slaughtered with jelly beans, pennies, copies of Time magazine, playing cards and beanies babies. And I've learned an important rule: You never, ever, ever have a Malakite of Eli fight in a Lilim of Lust's apartment (use your imagination, I dare you). The single scariest thing about Mals of Creation is that you can put them in an empty stainless steel room with nothing but their clothes... and you'll find yourself being slaughtered by a naked Malakite wielding a pair of pants with great skill and lethality. I do have a rule question, however. To quote from the Malakite of Creation attunement: "Anything they pick up can be used as a weapon... for the length of a single combat." While this makes sense for objects such as ladders, parking meters, pairs of pants, etc., it makes less since that a single playing card or jelly bean could be used in such a manner. That's stretching even the cinematic nature of IN. I propose that while large, relatively solid objects (parking meters, etc.) can be used like that, smaller objects are thrown, etc. when they are used as weapons. Therefore, a Malakite of Eli would need a handful of jelly beans, a deck of cards, etc. to use them in combat. Comments? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:37:51 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Malakim >I do have a rule question, however. To quote from the Malakite of >Creation attunement: "Anything they pick up can be used as a weapon... >for the length of a single combat." I think this refers to the fact a Malakite of Creation can't get the skill Toothbrush/5. They can only use objects they grab as weapons for the combat, based on the situation at hand. After that it fades. This is how I interpret it IMC. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:50:30 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement This just came up IMC and it bothers me, so I want some opinions. If you purchase a new Force (gift from your Superior and all that) then you get 4 attribute points, this costs 10cp. If you steadily increase your attributes you can eventually gain a force, this costs 12cp. Now that's all well and good, your Superior grafting a new Force on would be easier than developing yourself. And beyond that most of the time it just happens as you increase your attributes to flesh out the character and notice you uped 4. However the problem comes with its better to not purchase the final attribute increase that will gain you a new force because if you loose that Force in celestial combat you loose the attributes assosiated with them. Where as if you had stopped when you get to +3 among the attributes with the assosiated force you could keep the bonus even after loosing all of the forces. (a character with Strength 10 Agility 8 for instance if reduced to 0 corporeal forces could still have Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:13:25 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement Timothy wrote: > However the problem comes with its better to not purchase the final > attribute increase that will gain you a new force because if you > loose that > Force in celestial combat you loose the attributes assosiated with them. > Where as if you had stopped when you get to +3 among the attributes with > the assosiated force you could keep the bonus even after loosing > all of the > forces. (a character with Strength 10 Agility 8 for instance if > reduced to > 0 corporeal forces could still have Don't forget the other things that the force will do. The Force directly effects the number of hit points you have in an area. So having the force means more hit points. Having the force also means you have an extra force to lose if you get into celestial combat. Take for example an angel with 3 Cel Forces and 3 attribute points on top of that who gets into Cel combat, compared to a celestial with 4 Cel Forces. The one with 3 forces who loses 3 forces is now a remnant, their soul gone, admittedly with a couple of points, but who cares? The 4 forcer can keep fighting, possibly long enough to win or at least escape. If the fight ends with both of them losing three forces, one is destroyed, the other is diminished, but can re-establish his forces with time. Not to mention the fact that the 4 forcer would have more soul hits in the first place. Assume the 3 forcer has 8 Will, 7 Perception (not unreasonable with the 3 extra points). He will have 3*8=24 Soul Hits. The 4 Forcer has 8 Will, 8 Perception. He has 4*8=32 soul hits. The 4 Forcer can take an extra 8 Soul Hits before he even loses that first force. So in summary, I think your conclusions about not getting the extra force are mistaken. Leath. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1441 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.