From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 6 11:37:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09853 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:37:23 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA11098 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:31:28 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:31:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199912061731.LAA11098@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1449 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 6 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1449 In this digest: IN> The Humanity Attunement IN> Why GMs Need Common Sense and a Backbone IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Why GMs Need Common Sense and a Backbone Re: IN> Why GMs Need Common Sense and a Backbone IN> Humanity and Demons of Asmodeus Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement IN> I'm Batman! Re: IN> Malakim IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) Re: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance Re: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) IN> No humans allowed In Nomine IN>Superiors 1 IN> [MEDIA] This is not a casting thread. IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1448 RE: IN> Quote Length (partial repost from sjgames.innomine) (Was RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances) Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement Re: IN> Re: Eden Re: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) Re: IN> Habbalah of Death Attunement Re: IN> Garden of Eden Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: How Not To Post (Was Re: IN> Garden of Eden) Re: IN> Gaining force by attribute improvement Re: IN> The Rev cycle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:02:58 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Humanity Attunement >>>God can't see through the attunement. Even if you roll a 111, and get intervention, you won't find out.<<< If God exists, He can see through the attunement. If the GM wills it, a 111 can see through the attunement. Don't use stupid examples just because you're trying to make a point. >>>Resonance can't see through this attunement. As it reads, if a humanitized Gamester tells Dominic that he's a demon, Dominic will accuse him of being a liar, because the attunement will make the resonance register the statement as a lie.<<< That does seem to be what current canon would indicate...which is also stupid. >>>If Dominic shouts back, "You are a human!", would he get dissonance, or would he not, since this would reveal that the Gamester is not a human?<<< Stating what you *believe* to be the truth is not a lie, regardless of whether the statement is actually true or not, and therefore cannot be dissonant. >>>Furthermore, what if the Seraph says to the Gamester, "You are a demon." Would he become dissonant, because the Gamester is human, and this is a lie?<<< If the Seraph *believes* the Gamester is human, it would be dissonant. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:21:44 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Why GMs Need Common Sense and a Backbone >>>I'm not making the assumption that the first edition print of the attunement is necessarily the best wording, as it seems to have many flaws that may have been unforseen by the writers. Unless the writers aren't troubled by a Malakite of Eli attacking a foe with a check digit 6 grain of salt.<<< No, but they are troubled by GMs who don't have enough sense or creativity to wing it when the rules don't cover every single eventuality that could ever occur in the In Nomine universe. Really, I've been amazed the past few days, reading messages from GMs who are essentially saying: "Look! My players have figured out how to create absurd results with literal renderings of a particular rule and/or unusual combinations of attunements and/or by finding inconsistencies! WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOO??? I have to follow canon! I need a RULE! HELP ME!" There are no perfect rules, and In Nomine doesn't even attempt to simulate everything that might occur in the universe. Nor does it attempt to close every possible loophole that dedicated munchkins and rules lawyers might find. Attempting to do so would be both fruitless and a waste of time. Here are three assets every GM should have. If you have these assets, you can GM any game. If you don't, don't be a GM: 1. Common Sense. No rules systems is complete, and very few are without errors, inconsistencies, or loopholes. When you encounter something that doesn't make sense, use your head. If you think it's stupid for a Malakite of Eli to turn a grain of salt into a Power +6 weapon, don't let him. Don't demand errata for the In Nomine rulebook saying: "The following items are not permissible as weapons: Grains of salt. Strained peas. Snowflakes. Molecules. (long list of other excluded items, which will never be complete)" 2. Creativity. Really, if you don't have any creativity, you have no business being a GM. You will be called upon to improvise in situations not covered by game mechanics. Don't expect any rulebook to cover every possible event in the universe. (A rulebook the size of the Encyclopedia Britanica would fail on this score.) 3. A backbone, otherwise known as the werewithal to exercise the GM's Rule of No! If you can't tell weenies, munchkins, and rules lawyers to knock it off when they shove rules in your face, and feel unable to contradict anything printed in an official supplement, turn in your GM's license and go play Pokemon. You are the GM. There are no canon police. It is your job to do what it takes to keep your game fair and enjoyable. It is no one else's job to create rules that read and act like an impervious contract that will prevent any player from running roughshod over a spineless GM. If you want to run Monty Haul campaigns, go ahead. If you don't, don't. You're the GM. It's not an awesome responsibility, and it's not brain surgery, but it does require a little bit of current flowing through those synapses, and you do have to be a vertebrate. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:29:28 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Humanity Attunement >>>I honestly didn't read it that way.<<< Thanks for letting me know. I'll keep that in mind should your interpretation ever happen to become relevant to me. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:38:43 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Why GMs Need Common Sense and a Backbone ow. Barring any requests not to do so, I will likely forward this to several of my friends who don't even run In Nomine. It's an excellent if slightly vitriolic exhortation on how to be the GM. I think that whatever your take on the current thread is, the theory presented is very strong. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:57:19 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Why GMs Need Common Sense and a Backbone > No, but they are troubled by GMs who don't have enough sense or > creativity to wing it when the rules don't cover every single > eventuality that could ever occur in the In Nomine universe I hope, this being a response to my post, that my comments were just the proverbial straw for your camel's back. Unless I need to sign up for the no-common-sense, no-creativity, no-backbone, no-brain, browbeat-by-players whiny GM club. ;-) > following items are not permissible as weapons: Grains of salt. Strained > peas. Snowflakes. Molecules. (long list of other excluded items, which > will never be complete)" I'm not asking for a list of forbidden weapons. I'm merely pointing out that the wording of the attunement, as it stands, allows for all kinds of absurdities. If it is reworded to place the perception check before the grabbing of the weapon, all the absurdities are immediately removed, since you'll wind up grabbing something appropriate to the check digit. This doesn't require pages of errata. It's a simple adjustment. It requires fewer pages of clarification, mind you, than a rewriting (or non-rewriting, for that matter) of the Humanity attunement. > You're the GM. It's not an awesome responsibility, and it's not brain > surgery, but it does require a little bit of current flowing through > those synapses, and you do have to be a vertebrate. Heck with it; I'll put the backbone away and cease making a stand on the Mal-of-Eli issue. I'm wildly disagreed with. It's not like I have a Malakite of Eli in my campaign now, or in the foreseeable future. I was just hoping to clarify canon. In any case, I agree with your post as a whole. > -David Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 22:22:53 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: IN> Humanity and Demons of Asmodeus Here's my interpretation of what the SJ/Beth/Canon ruling means: 1) No resonance, song, or attunement will directly reveal a Humanity'd demon to be anything other than a normal human. 2) No resonance, song, or attunement will directly reveal a fact that is inconsistent with the demon being a normal human. This includes forces, characteristics, Essence totals, body hits, etc. 3) A resonance, song, or attunement may indirectly reveal a fact that is inconsistent with the demon being a normal human. Enough damage to exceed humanly possible body hits, an Impudite sucessfully draining the demon of six points of Essence, that it took nine Forces to posess this person... If someone reads consistently as human, *and* indirectly revealed facts reveal that it is not human, then an angel or demon might reach the conclusion that it is a Gamester. Or, he might reach the conclusion that this is a normal human being who is being aided by supernatural forces, or any of another dozen things. Perhaps it might be a Child of the Grigori... The idea isn't that it's impossible to develop a circumstantial case that a specific being is a Gamester using Humanity -- it's that the Symphony will never reveal it to anyone other than Lucifer. Finding out that a human is actually a Gamester should require either a major mistake by the demon or highly bad luck for the demon, *plus* significant investigative work by the investigating celestial. And the conclusion *still* shouldn't be confirmable by any one test short of the demon ending his use of the Humanity attunement. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:48:21 -0600 From: "Michael" Subject: Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement >What do *you* do when your Malakite of Eli picks up a sesame seed and rolls >a 6 on the check digit? Does his foe suddenly become violently allergic to >sesame seeds? Does he flick it into his enemy's eye? Does he Leap At His >Enemy, Poke Him Meanly And Ram The Sesame Seed Down His Throat (tm)? As some other people have pointed out, there are ways to handle this: Accuracy penalties, "fumble" rolls, The Rule Of No (one of *my* favorite choices). I have my own favorite way to handle it: I make the resonance rolls for PCs. That way, they know what *I* want them to know on informational resonances, and in case of something like this, if I don't want it to happen, then it doesn't happen. No worries about inappropriate weapons, or someone whining because he didn't get a plot-spoiler even though he rolled a "6" on his resonance CD, or anything else like that. The players operate with limited information, and they don't always know what's going on, or what their "right" move is. Maybe that demon is a pushover, and the Malakite can whip him with one hand tied behind his back... and maybe not. Maybe you've learned enough from that Soldier to foil the diabolical plot... and maybe you haven't. Maybe that Outcast is ready to come back to Heaven... and maybe she *isn't*. Yes, the players sometimes suspect that I fudge things... but they realize that I'm not fudging things to screw anyone, I'm doing it to tell a better story. You know what? If they're the kind of player who doesn't give a damn about how good the story is, I don't want them in my game. If they think that slaying a demon with a sesame seed is part of a good story, then I *definitely* don't want them in my game. >I'm not making the assumption that the first edition print of the attunement >is necessarily the best wording, as it seems to have many flaws that may >have been unforseen by the writers. Unless the writers aren't troubled by a >Malakite of Eli attacking a foe with a check digit 6 grain of salt. The IN rules are not designed to defeat the munchkins and the rules-rapists; I've done my share of rules-twisting to see what can be done. It's your responsibility as a GM to prevent it from going on in *your* game. If you've just *gotta* come up with a rule to confound your munchkins instead of just saying "No", you (and they) need to go play something else. There's plenty of places where the rules actually *do* need some clarification, or just flat-out rethinking, but this isn't one of them. It's written clearly enough that a little discussion with a reasonable player during character creation will handle the problem just fine. - -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:52:34 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: IN> I'm Batman! Speaking of Malakim of Eli... http://eviltwincomics.com/stuper/char/grim.html Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:17:34 EST From: Dreadblade0328@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Malakim In a message dated 12/5/99 3:52:42 PM Central Standard Time, lsheal01@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au writes: << The Creationer picked up one of the PCs and used him to beat the other one senseless. >> A game I ran had a Malakite using a Bal of the Game as a club to crack open a limo that a higher demon was using to get away. The attunement is way too fun. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:55:25 -0600 From: "Matt W." Subject: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) >Perhaps I am wrong. It may be nice if I am. Please, if I am wrong, quote >some content that is satirical and black comedy. Thanks. Beside's just Kobal in general, Haageenti in general and Eli in general... (oh, and some ways, Laurence in general. ) From the GMG's timeline: Right before the Fall, Kobal, as the Angel of Laughter, was given a secret assignment by God. No one knew or has ever known what it was besides Kobal. Shortly after this, Kobal and Lucifer start having private conversations, and shortly after that, the Fall happens. The implications of this is an exercise for the reader. If you don't get the possibilities and the joke, be happy and run your dark serious brooding Vampire: The Mas... I mean, uhum, In Nomine campaigns. If you do get it, run with it. = Matt W = # Balseraph of Dark Humor # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:34:59 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) In-Nomine has serious aspects, but it definetly lends itself to always having humour of some sort (then again V:tM is funny, IMO, though I'm not sure if it meant to be. Ask me some time off list about the campeign I ran with "Lord Regent Eziekal, Prince of Atlanta"). I personally think the Malakim have a definete black comedy feel ("I killed him because it was the lord's will!" being true does warrent an amused scoff). The game can be serious, but it does definetly get funny even when very dark (one of my players had there Mercurian character use the expression, "By the six wings of a Seraph!" and it caught on with the locals and entered slang, to the point of even appearing in MTV shows). Anyway I'm tired and Rambling incoherently (go essence!) so I'll end by quoting parents everywhere, "Its all fun and games, until someone looses an eye." Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 17:01:31 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement > > Um.... > > That's not what Beth did. > > Beth asked SJ for his ruling. He gave it. He didn't affirm her, he > affirmed her take was the right one. This is why she called it > "invoking her Superior." Trust me, Steve Jackson didn't get where he > is by yes-anding Line Editors. > > > -- > Eric Alfred Burns Yeah, you guys lay off Beth, much shame upon you. I second what W.I.T.D. said. Oh terrible amounts of shame. May you be bitten by the fleas of one thound camels to purge you of your shame. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 01:21:42 -0600 (CST) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance From: EDG > At 02:34 PM 12/5/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >If another demon tells the Seraph that the Gamester is a demon, would this > >register as a lie or a truth? > > The Symphony registers it as a lie. Even going by the most powerful interpetation of the Humanity Attunement, it would register as a truth, if the demon believes the Gamester is a demon, on CD's of 1-4. The Seraph would just know that the demon believes the Gamester is a demon. > > >Does an Impudite become dissonant if he "kills" a Gamester? > > Yes. (Dissonance for demons is based on their personal Symphonies. He > believes that he killed a human (he heard the disturbance, after all), so > he gets dissonance. If an Impudite's gaining of dissonance is purely on the Imudite's beliefs, then it would be possible to get an Impudite to kill a human without gaining dissonance by first employing the Song of Thunder, and then using the Balseraph resonance to convince him the human is really an angel, ethereal, or demon. I don't think that's the case. > > >Does a Mercurian become dissonant if he punches a Gamester? > > Yes. Would he lose such dissonance if he later finds out the Gamester was a demon? What if a Balseraph convinced him the Gamester was a demon? Another thing to remember about the Humanity Attunement is that it states it prevents others from detecting one as a demon. Present Tense. There's nothing which gives the Humanity Attunment a retroactive effect. If one detected someone was a demon 1 second before they activated the attunement, one won't suddenly forget once it's active. Since the Gamester knew it was a demon before it used the attunement, he won't think he's human. And since God is supposedly aware of everything happening everywhere (omniscience, one of the perks of the job), he knew the Gamester was a demon before he used the attunement, and won't be fooled by it despite the wording of Humanity. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 17:28:05 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) - ---------- Ask me some time off list about the campeign I ran > with "Lord Regent Eziekal, Prince of Atlanta"). I so inquire, however I don't have your address so i'll supply mine. stuball@tpgi.com.au Thanx Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:08:50 -0800 From: "Glenn D. Brown" Subject: IN> No humans allowed In Nomine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF3F7E.13009E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's been commented that in some ways, the In Nomine game is really not = about humans. The rule system is set up so you need a celestial number = of Forces to be barely competent. Humans with 5 or 6 forces are really = outclassed. Of course, you can argue that humans choosing Destiny or = Fate is what the game should REALLY be all about, but let's ignore that = whole issue for a moment. I just got the GMG (a very good book, by the = way) and reading all the various different noncanon ways you can play In = Nomine led me to think of a few things that weren't covered in the book. = Jordi once considered destroying humanity. In 1348, Makatiel, the Demon = Prince of Disease, also tried to exterminate humanity. Suppose one of = them had succeeded? Or perhaps someone else did it more recently?=20 What I'm suggesting is an In Nomine game in which everyone is a = celestial, a Saint, or an Undead. That would pretty much take care of = the need to hide the War. On the other hand, without any humans to fight = over, it would be easier for Heaven and Hell to agree to disagree, so an = instant Armageddon wouldn't necessarily follow, though Laurence, David = and all the Malakim would still be pushing for the ultimate destruction = of all demons. More of the Earth might resemble the status of Austin, = with angels and demons interacting and competing on behalf of their = superiors in less extreme ways. There might be a much larger Celestial = population present on Earth, since Superiors would have less reason to = keep their Servitors from coming to Earth if they wanted to. But Baal = and Michael wouldn't give up War even if there were no humans left to = fight over, so they and their forces would still be sparring. As David = the Archangel says on page 18 of Superiors 1, "Jordi's insects practiced = building, craftmanship, and community long before I taught humanity = these things. I value the human spirit, but our work could go on without = it."=20 But the real issue is not if humans are expendable, but if any humans = would like to play such a game. I think it might have real comedic = possibilities. I would like to learn your reaction, and welcome any = suggestions you have.=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF3F7E.13009E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's been commented that in some = ways, the In=20 Nomine game is really not about humans.  The rule system is set up = so you=20 need a celestial number of Forces to be barely competent.  Humans = with 5 or=20 6 forces are really outclassed. Of course, you can argue that humans = choosing=20 Destiny or Fate is what the game should  REALLY be all about, but = let's=20 ignore that whole issue for a moment. I just got the GMG (a very good = book, by=20 the way) and reading all the various different noncanon ways you can = play In=20 Nomine led me to think of a few things that weren't covered in the book. = Jordi=20 once considered destroying humanity. In 1348, Makatiel, the Demon Prince = of=20 Disease, also tried to exterminate humanity. Suppose one of them had = succeeded?=20 Or perhaps someone else did it more recently?
What I'm suggesting is an In Nomine = game in=20 which everyone is a celestial, a Saint, or an Undead. That would pretty = much=20 take care of the need to hide the War. On the other hand, without any = humans to=20 fight over, it would be easier for Heaven and Hell to agree to disagree, = so an=20 instant Armageddon wouldn't necessarily follow, though Laurence, David = and all=20 the Malakim would still be pushing for the ultimate destruction of all = demons.=20 More of the Earth might resemble the status of Austin, with angels and = demons=20 interacting and competing on behalf of their superiors in less extreme = ways.=20 There might be a much larger Celestial population present on Earth, = since=20 Superiors would have less reason to keep their Servitors from coming to = Earth if=20 they wanted to.  But Baal and Michael wouldn't give up War even if = there=20 were no humans left to fight over, so they and their forces would still = be=20 sparring.  As David the Archangel says on page 18 of Superiors 1,=20 "Jordi's insects practiced building, craftmanship, and community = long=20 before I taught humanity these things. I value the human spirit, but our = work=20 could go on without it."
But the real issue is not if humans = are=20 expendable, but if any humans would like to play such a game. I think it = might=20 have real comedic possibilities. I would like to learn your reaction, = and=20 welcome any suggestions you have.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF3F7E.13009E20-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 02:27:08 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: IN>Superiors 1 Well I finally got my copy of Superiors 1, and all I can say is WOW!! I absolutlely loved it...great content, and the artwork was spectacular! I espically loved Laurance's main pic and superior symbol(I liked the rest of the superiors' symbols and pics too!) All in all it's a great book, well worth the price and I can't wait for the rest of the series. Oh, for those who aren't Pyramid sub-s c r i b e r s you should really be...cause Superiors 3 is in playtest...and lemme say Khalid looks great! Ben Chism ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 05:22:30 -0500 (EST) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: IN> [MEDIA] This is not a casting thread. From the latest Zentertainment mailing list posting: GILLIAM'S GOOD OMENS Terry Gilliam (Brazil, 12 Monkeys) is attached to adapt and direct an adaptation of Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett's apocalyptic comedy GOOD OMENS. Producers Chuck Roven (12 Monkeys, Fallen) and Peter & Marc Samuelson (Wilde, Revenge of the Nerds) are overseeing the project, for which a studio deal is pending. Jason, who digs it the most - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) werther@hilander.com (play) jayafter12am@hotmail.com (late-night) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 11:10:58 +0000 From: "Igor" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1448 Demon: "I am a demon." (BONG! It's a lie!) >Seraph: "No, you are not." >Demon: "I am a human." (no bong. this must be true.) >Seraph: "You are human." (Seraph gets dissonance, doesn't notice due to >the Humanity attunement.) >Seraph: "You lied to me the first time. I don't like lies." (Seraph gets >dissonance...) >Seraph: "You are no demon. Now talk to me, or my friends will make you >talk..." (Seraph gets dissonance. Seraph Falls.) > >Or would he not Fall, since Falling would reveal that he was lying, and if >he was lying, then the Gamester must be a demon? > Surely the Seraphic Dissonance condition applies to when the seraph says something that he beleives is untrue Also in the above situation the demon uses the attunement to trick the *symphony* into beleiving it is a human, therefore the symphony will not impose dissonance on the seraph Chris Smith "Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, _Good Omens_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:55:14 -0000 From: Meehan Anthony Subject: RE: IN> Quote Length (partial repost from sjgames.innomine) (Was RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances) EDG wrote >At 12:47 PM 12/3/99 -0000, Meehan Anthony wrote: > > > >And that, right there, is my point. > >Please snip quotes, folks. It's really, honestly not that hard. I >promise. An added benefit is that it won't piss people off. >"Me too" is NOT an appropriate post. I'm sorry to anyone that I annoyed. I'll make sure I edit posts better. I would like to point out to anyone who didn't read my post (Possibly due to skipping it because of the quoted bits> that it wasn't a Me too post, but anyway ... My appologies again. Hey at least I got a personal mail from Beth out of it. Woo hoo. Thats being framed! :D Starsurfer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:58:24 -0800 (PST) From: Wade Trupke Subject: Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten > From: "Ben Glickler" > While the game may have begun as a satire, it > currently contains no content > that is satirical or comical. It's quite a > serious, dark game, with a few > light points, but nothing that would make it > non-serious. > > Perhaps I am wrong. It may be nice if I am. > Please, if I am wrong, quote > some content that is satirical and black > comedy. Thanks. > Really, In Nomine can go either way. That's one of the things I really like about it; as written, it can take on just about any tone you want it to have. It can be serious and dark, or high comedy, or whatever. If you think that having a Mal of Eli using wacky weapons would ruin the mood of your game, then I see to main options for you: 1. Don't allow them. Tell your players that the Mal of Eli attunement cannot be used on silly items, because that doesn't fit the tone of your game. If you've got decent players, they'll understand, and work within your bounds. 2. Use the other method someone suggested, where the perception roll finds an object to use at the CD level. It's perfectly reasonable, and game effects should be pretty much identical to the canon interpretation. It might not be canon, but if you specify this ruling from the outset, it's perfectly fair. House rules, in my experience, are only a problem if they aren't explained to everyone, or if they aren't used fairly. (Or if you have by-the-book rules lawyers, who should be dragged into the street and shot, IMO.) Wade (shot with a Nerf gun, that is...) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 10:22:42 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement Azrael wrote: > > Can you buy an additional 3 points in all areas after you've maxed out your > forces? Yes, but keep in mind there are also stat limitations as well. So a human is limited to 5 Forces could theoretically buy 9 more points of stats, but still couldn't exceed 10. Likewise, ethereal/celestial stats can't go above 12. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 10:22:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Eden I don't think there's any IN canon about the location of Eden. The Bible locates Eden at the intersection of two real rivers (the Tigris and Euphrates) and two rivers that are not real (currently, at least). One theory is that Eden was located in the Persian Gulf, back when there was an ice age running and the sea level was lower. Then, at some point, the slowly rising sea-level breaks through a natural dam, Eden is rubbed out, and you have Noah's Flood. That one's my favorite. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 08:57:03 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) [ snip the examples which I agree to disagree with :-) ] > The implications of this is an exercise for the reader. If you don't get > the possibilities and the joke, be happy and run your dark serious > brooding Vampire: The Mas... I mean, uhum, In Nomine campaigns. If you > do get it, run with it. Ok, from this, I get the point. I was about to comment that Vampire: The Masquerade is far more satirical, even going so far as to satirize itself, but them it occured to me that, as written, it was not a satire. It was the players that made it such, and it was the players (in some cases) that made it a satire of itself. Same with In Nomine, although I suspect if you're playing the game as a big cosmic joke, you're... missing something. It's terribly refreshing to be free of moral ambiguity, which is part of the charm of In Nomine. You know the angels are the good guys. You know the demons are the bad guys. The biggest moral question the In Nomine game asks is whether or not the ends justify the means. This is a sophisticated enough question to make the game extremely interesting, and using it as a satire seems to answer that question from the outset. Uhm. Abort, Retry, Screw It? > = Matt W = > # Balseraph of Dark Humor # Don't you mean Seraph of Dark Humor? ;-) Ben (humor him) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:35:38 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Habbalah of Death Attunement At 15:10 -0500 12/3/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >the Habbalah of Death Attunement just doesn't seem to fit right as a Word >power, neither does the IN-GURPS change. We tried to make it as close to a "possession" power as we could, to minimize the deviation from the original. The thought behind it was (for me, at least) sort of a semi-scientific justification of the Habbalah resonance being able to affect the neurons in the dead brain in such a way as to stir them to life a bit. (One can argue that most of the other demonic powers are equally brain-affecting, but Habbalah are probably the most flexible and arguably the strongest, short of the Shedite possession ability.) The other nice thing about the Habbalite attunement is that it allows them to inflict entertaining fears about death. The GURPS IN stuff should all be in playtest again very soon on Pyramid; that's probably the place to make suggestions. It's not *quite* set in concrete yet, though playtest will probably be fairly short. >also, is the Attunement going to be changed when Saminga comes around in the >Superiors series, or will this have to wait for the possible IN 2nd edt.? I believe that it will become errata for 1st ed., be in Saminga's Superiors writeup (we've already been cross-checking GURPS IN with the Superiors series), and will certainly be in IN 2nd ed. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:43:25 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Garden of Eden At 20:39 -0500 12/3/99, Tim Groth wrote: >Ok the Garden did exist in the In-nomine universe (as there was an entire >Eden experement and all). Is there any canon on the nature/location of the >Garden? Something is banging around in my heretical brain. I don't think it's been nailed down in canon, though it's possible it's in the GMG. I think at least one idea that was kicking around was that it was on what is now the floor of the Mediterranean, before it flooded after the last Ice Age. I don't know if the dates in the IN timeline in the GMG are compatible with that, though. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:50:50 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement At 0:32 -0500 12/4/99, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: [stuff about >12 attribute characters in canon snipped...] >Can't see how ANY line editor let THAT one get through, though.... Exactly. If I recall right, there *wasn't* one at that time. There was sort of an interregnum between Night Music and the IPG, roughly. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:20:15 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement At 2:30 AM +0000 12/4/99, Liam Astley wrote: >From: Elizabeth McCoy >>[...] >it was that some people were claiming that this attunement was powerful >enough to alter character's thoughts, causing them to believe that the >asmodean was human, no matter what the evidence contrary was (having lots of >hits, using essence, using songs, whatever). that was the part i found >difficult to believe That's a non-canon view on it -- the canon view is that it causes a certain amount of _lying_ to people's resonances and attunements. (Does this mean that an Asmodean can say, 'Yeah, I'm human' to a Seraph? Probably. That is a rather bald statement, though, and just on the off-chance that the Seraph rolled a Divine Intervention, a smart Gamester would probably weasle if he could.) (And then there was the 666 to Lying that a certain demon got in a game, when she told the Ofanite of Revelation she was human, yes, really. And until Eli showed up (on a 111), she _WAS_. Ewwwwwwwww.) At 8:10 PM -0800 12/3/99, Jo Hart wrote: >Also, if a >Cherub or Djinn (or Song of Affinity) had locked onto the demon prior to it >using Humanity, I think it should still work! Oh, definitely! I see no reason why it would (or should) disrupt a pre- existing attunement of that nature. After all, Cherubim and Djinn (and the Songs of Affinity and Attraction) can attune to humans, too! (Now, start getting really weird with the Cherub of the Wind/Djinn of Theft attunement. Would I count the Gamester as "human" for those purposes? I'd have to think about it, but probably. Same with Crown of Joy (Novalis Servitor attunement).) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:13:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: How Not To Post (Was Re: IN> Garden of Eden) Calm, calm, calm. Deep breaths. However, he is right -- the pet peeves are often annoying to some extent or other. At 8:31 PM -0700 12/3/99, EDG wrote: >#4: Thou shalt not put thy text above the quoted text, for doing so offends >thy Angel of Networks, who is a most jealous angel. If thou dost, thou >shalt receive upon thee a free trip through a wood chipper. This one doesn't send me screaming (sending me MIME or HTML sends me screaming) -- but it is a bit funky looking. It's also a default for several (annoying) email programs, which means that the user of such programs will have to be extra careful to make sure that they're trimming appropriately! However, let's try to have a email-only set of Posting Nettiquite for a while now; this is the IN list, so we don't want it to turn into the How To Post So You Don't Send Everyone Frothing Introduction mailing list. (Which also means that everyone should try to shake bad habits, so they don't get evil raging monsters in their private email! They're doing wonders with attachment files these days...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:17:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gaining force by attribute improvement At 10:49 PM -0400 12/3/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >>When you have 6 Forces in an area, you have 12 in both characteristics in >>that area. That's the Absolute Maximum Characteristic for a Standard >>Celestial. > >Hey. What about the Demon of Steam, in Heaven and Hell? Errata; and if he isn't, he's going to be. There were a _LOT_ of badly- designed demons in the Hell chapter, with over-12 attributes. They are all errata'ed, with much frothing and cursing and voodoo chants to inflict plagues of junk mail upon the author. >>Even Archangels only have 12 in each characteristics. > >? I don't remember seeing this anywhere. It's one of the options in the GMG. At 12:32 AM -0500 12/4/99, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >Can't see how ANY line editor let THAT one get through, though.... Heaven and Hell was written, and edited, during the Line Editor Interregnum. My sole contribution to that was to notice that Khalid's Cathedral didn't sync with the FT description of him, and get that changed on bluelines. At the time, I wasn't LE (or if I was, it was at the printer just before I started treading water). (Ah, the stories I could tell about that book... But you'd have to get me drunk at a convention, and I don't drink. O;> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:22:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Rev cycle At 9:33 PM -0700 12/3/99, Tim Groth wrote: >This reminds me of something I've been wondering. Has the cycle method of >providing supplements been abandoned? Abandoned, no. Taken into the back room and worked over, yes. I can't give out details (darn it), but I _hope_ that an example of a revised cycle will show up sometime in 2000. It all depends on if the Cycle-model cries uncle fast enough. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1449 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.