From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 9 17:37:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13391 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:37:56 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA20846 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:34:55 -0600 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:34:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199912092334.RAA20846@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1454 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 9 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1454 In this digest: Re: IN> Virtual Tethers Re: IN> Virtual Tethers Re: IN> Virtual Tethers Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> What Demons are Really After IN> Moral Ambiguity Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) RE: IN> More Morals IN> Dark Humor on the IN Mailing List Re: IN> Dark Humor on the IN Mailing List Re: IN> Virtual Tethers Re: IN> Reliever of Creation ... IN> The Archangels Re: IN> Why GM's Need Common Sense and a Backbone IN> Kyriotates of Stone IN> Djinn solider drama unravels Re: IN> More Morals Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Re: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone IN> [NPC] Urgore, Shedite of the War Re: IN> [NPC] Urgore, Shedite of the War Re: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Re: IN> The Archangels Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Re: IN> More Morals Re: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:22:26 -0600 (CST) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> Virtual Tethers From: "Jo Hart" > > > > Are Virtual Tethers possible? > > It /is/ an interesting idea. Part of the thing with Tethers is a sense of > place, though. I don't really think a virtual tether should be tied to its > server box, because that's not the virtual location -- it's just the > code/database/website. Since chat rooms and websites are conceptual locations, would it be possible that ones which became significant to humanity and the Symphony in some way could form an Ethereal Location (sort of a quasi-dreamscape) and a Tether form between the Ethereal Location and a Cathedral/Principality? Being intellectual constructs, the Ethereal would seem like a likely location for them, and it would take care of the sense of place issue. Of course, this would mean you could access the Marches by websurfing, so there might be some weird complications. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:43:12 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> Virtual Tethers > > > So if someone tries to bring people to their destiny via IRC > > > > Yes but really, how likely is that? :) > >Considering that most of IRC consists of channels like #BSDM and >#HotRearAction, not particularly likely. Destiny would have their work >cut out for them just trying to get people to communicate in something >that has a passive resemblance to English. > >IRC -- not a good place to hook up with angels. Shuggoths, maybe, but not >angels. Destiny was probably a poor choice, but consider something like lust. There's few other words that I think would have more virtual tethers than that one. From porn sites to obscene IRC channels, it's everywhere. As to location, I would argue that the tether doesn't exist anywhere on the corporeal plane, but somewhere in cyberspace, which might well be a very new part of the Marches. If the site/channel/whatever changes from one server to another, or exists as a distributed network, this doesn't affect what it is and how it works, so the tether can't really be there. It exists in the minds of the people that contribute to it, so it makes the most sense to be ethereal. Going back to a topic from a while back, this new cyberspace in the Marches may soon become inhabited by sentient AIs that are a form of ethereal spirit created by humans. There might even be cybersoldiers that live there and work for the new (and potentially quite powerful) gods of this realm. This actually reminds me of the Digital Web in Mage, which might be a good sourcebook for people wanting to integrate something of this sort into their campaigns. - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:40:28 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Virtual Tethers Ben Glickler wrote: > >...and Linux doesn't use daemons for nothing. :-) Daemons use BSD. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 22:20:13 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Liam Astley wrote: >From: Matt W. >> The want to just create evil does *not* drive a demon. > >except, of course, for shedim Why is everyone so down on the Shedim? They aren't particularly worse than most people, and certainly aren't worse than most of the other IN demonic bands. How many people do you know who go through each day without ever saying one harmful word or doing one harmful deed, without ever taking the easy way out, without ever rationalizing away some little piece of self-interest? Those instants are all they have to encourage; it's nothing worse than what a Lilim does while acquiring a geas. There was a good example of this posted on the list a while back (by Jo?): a human actor made a deal with demons for fame. So a Shedite of the Media was sent to possess him, and along the way it took him from doing Shakespearean drama to loud stupid action movies. No serial killing, no baby-raping: nothing even his wife could say was really out of character for him. Besides, thinking of them as inevitably leading people to become jay-walking mass-murderers is goofy: if you assume any kind of reasonable numbers for demonic populations on Earth, it follows that in almost all cases they can't be doing this, or almost all cases of serial killings would have to be the result of Shedite possessions. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:48:32 -0500 From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After >There was a good example of this posted on the list a while back (by >Jo?): a human actor made a deal with demons for fame. So a Shedite of >the Media was sent to possess him, and along the way it took him from >doing Shakespearean drama to loud stupid action movies. No serial >killing, no baby-raping: nothing even his wife could say was really >out of character for him. > >Besides, thinking of them as inevitably leading people to become >jay-walking mass-murderers is goofy: if you assume any kind of >reasonable numbers for demonic populations on Earth, it follows that >in almost all cases they can't be doing this, or almost all cases of >serial killings would have to be the result of Shedite possessions. > > >-- >Neel Krishnaswami >neelk@alum.mit.edu > Aren't Shedites described as typically being evil adoring demonic monster that enjoy leading their "rides" down the merry road to Hell? They crave evil, harm and corruption. The actor might have been lead away from his Destiny and more toward his fate in the above example. Cannonical (sp?) seem to love evil, not just popping and getting you to steal a pencil from work and leaving. IMO, a Shedite acting in such a way is more on the path toward redemption. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:16:50 +1100 From: "Cathal" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After > Why is everyone so down on the Shedim? They aren't particularly worse > than most people, and certainly aren't worse than most of the other IN > demonic bands. > > How many people do you know who go through each day without ever > saying one harmful word or doing one harmful deed, without ever taking > the easy way out, without ever rationalizing away some little piece of > self-interest? Those instants are all they have to encourage; it's > nothing worse than what a Lilim does while acquiring a geas. Ah but IIRC the shedim have to keep escalating, sure today you take a pen and not return it, tomorrow you take a seat on the bus ahead of that old lady, next day you shoplift something small, day after you claim credit for an employees major project, next day you push someone out of your way(or whatever)Point is the shedim have to keep driving people to worse and worse acts until they end up on top of that bell tower...(or running naked through a church with a Katana..) Not to mention they are described as one of the worst bands, one of the most despised by angels, not to mention other demons Thats why they are prolly one of the worst(although it is all relative :>) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:45:44 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Moral Ambiguity >>>Wrong. Unless the section changed radically during playtest there should be all kinds of ways of portraying Lucifer including with Style, Pride, Deviousness, Humor, Sympathy, and yes even Evil in the section tilted Lucifer's Personality (page 112). But Evil is no more of a requirement than Humor.<<< Wrong. It didn't change during playtest, and Evil is defined to be a fundamental part of Lucifer's nature. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:56:22 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) Another thing to note that it is heavily implied (if not out right stated) that all the corruption that a Shedite does to someone is perment, even after they leave they have changed the person for ever. When coupled with their ability to edit memories this is the most damaging resonance to humanity. They can make a nun into a whore, permently, if she fails her Will rolls to avoid the Shedite's control. Although fixing up someone's life after the Shedite leaves them is possible, at least more so than while their still under the influence. They permently change people, its not likel, "Wow, why did I do that?" its a 'natural' shift in their personality. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 23:34:58 -0600 From: "Matt W." Subject: RE: IN> More Morals >* Ancient religious texts seem to indicate that God made us so that he could >have fellowship with beings that were created "in His image" Oh no, God just seems to off in the distance, since the main bits of him are up in the far Heavens. He's not indifferent. He likes humanity. He loves us, actually. Some of him is running around all the time, sitting back with us, chatting with us, asking how are day was. He's on Earth. He has a few of us as friends, and he generally is enjoying life, sitting back, occassionally having a Margarita. To put it simply, God is Eli, or at least some piece of him. Just kicking back and enjoying life with the humans he loves. In fact, God probably sees the inhumanity of angels as a necessary glitch for their purpose. Humans are the ones who are most like *him*, which is why he doesn't talk to angels that much. Demons, demons just disturb him. Just remember, God is the most creative being in the universe. He came up with the idea of the universe after all. Eli *does* literally translate as "my God". = Matt W = - - Seraph of Revelation - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 23:45:15 -0600 From: "Matt W." Subject: IN> Dark Humor on the IN Mailing List A brief spoof on the current, "Angels = Good, Demons = Bad" conversations: Representation of players who've decided they like the angelic side: "Demons are evil, demons are evil, no convincing me otherwise" Representation of players who've decided to play with the demons: "Demons aren't always evil, demons aren't evil, demons aren't like that, no convincing me otherwise!" Shouting commences, counterpoints are met with greater counterpoints, crockery is thrown, conversation devolves into bagging on the table with their shoes. = Matt W = [ Balseraph of Dark Humor ] Who Is Really Showing His Nature Right Now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:55:43 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Dark Humor on the IN Mailing List > conversation devolves into bagging on the table with their shoes. Wow... It sounds more like Lust on the IN Mailing List! I don't know what kind of games you run, but I'm sure Andre would be glad to steal you away from Kobal. Gregory Balseraph of the Game ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 22:06:28 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> Virtual Tethers Adding to the list of words with virtual tethers, I'm fairly sure eBay would be a tether of Marc. But, this does raise a question. If we're considering virtual tethers, how about other things, like virtual artifacts? A piece of code that acts as a virtual talisman would be great. Copy it to any appropriate machine, and improve your skill at something while using that machine to do it. Imagine even crazier possibilities, such as a Sanguine Painting in JPEG format. Any talented artist can use Photoshop to trap a celestial in the pixels. The possibilities of what happens when the file gets moved, copied, or deleted are quite interesting. On the down side, all your enemy needs is a degausser to destroy digital artifacts...hope you kept a backup copy... - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:39:22 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Reliever of Creation ... > How's he going to get a vessel? Eli isn't around much Hm... Eli may not be around *Heaven* much, but he certainly continues to show up on Earth in odd places. And I seem to recall mention that he's been rumored to still be attaching some of his own Forces to various and sundry Soldiers (Corporeal Players Guide, p. 58), which also, to me, implies that he does the same for Celestials. Then, of course, you have those of us who run games that are only *mostly* canon. As Eli is my favorite of the Superiors, while I keep him roaming Earth, he's also quite likely to pop in from time to time... (My fiance came up with a marvelous charaterization of Eli one day that has become part of the background in my campaign world: Sitting in the back corner of a friendly corner coffee shop in a college town, black dockers and turtleneck, looking something like a 90's beatnick, head bopping like one of those little dogs in the back of car windows (you'd have to see this done to realize how perfect it is ). Someone drops by his table and asks, "Whacha doin?" "Listenin' to music," Eli replies, head continuing to keep time to a beat only heard by him. Our visitor, by the way, notices the complete absence of headphones. "What music? There is no music!" our hapless collegiate replies. "Just 'cause you can't hear it doesn't mean it ain't there..." Eli's utterly cool response, of course, intrigues said hapless collegiate, and the conversation continues... Of course, this little snippet of genius just *had* to get attached to one of my NPC's - Rabbi Deborah Silverberg, a Solider of Eli, who left this encounter with a token - a ring made from gum wrappers liners. Mind you, she doesn't know that it's a token...) Regards, Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 08:00:55 -0500 From: "J. Michael Smith" Subject: IN> The Archangels I thought I made myself clear on that one. ALL the angels want to do "good." They think this can be accomplished by "following God" (whatever that means) and by being selfless. The Seraphim council is included. But, this doesn't mean that God can't manipulate them into disaster, or that they can't make huge mistakes on their own. Some of the bravest, most well-intentioned men fought valiantly for some of the most evil nations in history-out of naivite and just plain ignorance. Such might be the case for the angels. At least the demons are aware of what's going on with Lucifer. And remember that the last time God DID intervene (barring the possible birth of Christ) he brought half a dozen plagues, a holy war that killed more than a million, and that flood thing....and this is according to God himself and his followers. (Although I must say, the idea of having the Bible primarily influenced by a Balseraph instead of God is most appealing. Heck, I've thought of eliminating the guy altogether...just another Balseraph lie. In some ways, it really makes sense, but I haven't worked out all the details yet.) As for the selfishness/selflessness thing, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that Christianity and some other religions make. In my experience, the most intelligent and effective selfish people (people who are primarily out for their own happiness) are the most selfless people in existence. Buddhism is probably the best example of a philosophy that embraces this paradox-though there are others, and a lot of individuals use it conconciously or unconciously. I primarily remember St. Augustine as the guy who made it possible for the nice pascifist Christians to fight in wars. ('You can slaughter your enemies. Just remember that God says to love them too.') Good for him. The Romans were getting pissed about that. Of course, that little decree did sort of make the crusades and all sorts of other wars and massacres possible, but we'll overlook that. Oh, and yes, my view of the demons is that they really aren't effective and intelligent about being selfish (though some are, but they seem to end up going renegade or redeeming). Otherwise they would have made peace a long time ago, and become a kinder, gentler sort. Although they could have wanted to make peace a long time ago, and not been able to. I have also wanted to explore the possibility of heaven and hell actually signing a peace treaty for their war. Also the views I spouted above apply primarily to humans, and demons have different drives. Hmmm...some very twisted ideas are beginning to take root in my mind. Sorry about the brainstorming though. It always leads to really awful post writing. My Moon-based Death Ray Panics the people of Earth. Mock my theories now! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:01:19 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> Why GM's Need Common Sense and a Backbone Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:56:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy >Any GM who lets a PC use Abracadabra or Transubstantiation to create >antimatter... Or californium, or finely powdered plutonium, or VX gas. >...deserves what happens. >(I sometimes semi-seriously ponder whether it might be worthwhile to find a >place for the following box in 2/e: > There are occasionally times when every possible interpretation of a > rule for a resonance, attunement, or Distinction cannot possibly be covered > in less than several pages. In such cases, the GM should decide in his own > mind what the intent of the ability is, and when a player attempts to > pervert the wording to something blatently not intended, cackle madly, > congratulate the player's imagination, and say, "NO." > Hitting the player with fuzzy car-dice afterward is optional. >It would probably be taken the wrong way, though. O:p ) Do it. The people who do these hacks for the interest will be fine and the powergames can go of and play Goth Vampires, in that other Game. The one Asmodeus wrote, for Malphas. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:56:23 -0500 (EST) From: Diane J Donaldson Subject: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Suppose a Kyriotate of Stone wants to design its own stone vessel, sometime after character creation. How much essence would it cost? The GMG (p. 18) says "15 pts per level, multiplied by the prospective inhabitant's Forces", but methinks Kyriotates are a special case. Not all of their forces are ever going to be inhabiting that vessel. Would it be reasonable to assume that a human stone vessel, level 3, would then cost 3*15*5=225 essence instead of 405 essence, which is what it would be for a 9-Force Celestial who was not a Kyriotate? (Of course, after the Kyrio designs the vessel, it still has to get David to animate it, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.) djd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 09:25:16 -0500 From: Mary Subject: IN> Djinn solider drama unravels <<(My reasons need to be kept relatively confidential as some of my players read this list.)>> Rats...I'm found out! As you've seen me alluded to in previous posts, I'm the player playing the solider in the solider/Djinn super-team. The situation is rather simple. My angel and friend, fell and dispite the suicidal stupidity involved, I've decided to try to redeem him. (whether I suceed is entirely up my roleplaying and Djinn--spooky isn't it?) I'm still sitting on the fence between 6 and 7 forces. I can't decide whether it makes a better story if i play a rather naive "I feel the good in you Fred" solider or if its more interesting to play a veteran with a more involved "I've held your bleeding Vessel together when you were stabbed 8 times by that Calabite and dumped into the Thames-your not going down now!" partnership with the Djinn. My Moon-based Death Ray Panics the people of Earth. Mock my theories now! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 09:36:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> More Morals Matt W. wrote: > Oh no, God just seems to off in the distance, since the main bits of > him are up in the far Heavens. He's not indifferent. I'll say He isn't, since, according to canon, He intervenes directly every time a character rolls 111. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 09:40:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Why is everyone so down on the Shedim? They aren't particularly worse > than most people, and certainly aren't worse than most of the other IN > demonic bands. Oh, but they are. Every Shedite on Earth has to make its host a little more corrupt every day, or endure dissonance. No other band has evil built into its game mechanics. Remember the write-up for Bright Bands a while back? Shedim were the only band where we argued over the possibility of going Bright without Redeeming. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 10:49:22 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Diane J Donaldson wrote: > > Suppose a Kyriotate of Stone wants to design its own stone vessel, > sometime after character creation. How much essence would it cost? The > GMG (p. 18) says "15 pts per level, multiplied by the prospective > inhabitant's Forces", but methinks Kyriotates are a special case. Not all > of their forces are ever going to be inhabiting that vessel. Would it be > reasonable to assume that a human stone vessel, level 3, would then cost > 3*15*5=225 essence instead of 405 essence, which is what it would be for a > 9-Force Celestial who was not a Kyriotate? (Of course, after the Kyrio > designs the vessel, it still has to get David to animate it, but that's a > whole 'nother can of worms.) Non-Superiors don't use Essence to get vessels. They go to their Superior and beg (i.e. use experience points). - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:52:44 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome V" Subject: Re: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) - -Dennis Groome V / "Amo Nympham" http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me." -Stabbing Westward, ACF >Another thing to note that it is heavily implied (if not out right stated) >that all the corruption that a Shedite does to someone is perment, even >after they leave they have changed the person for ever. are you sure about this? there's no concrete indication to my knowledge of this in canon, and we've had mulitple conversations about the posibility of a host backsliding after the Shedite's gone. i think most people would backslide on the heinous evils, repent their ways and try to do good, but those small, little evils -- the ones that aren't really that much of a bad thing...boosting a pen, lying to a friend -- may stick, or at lest become a lot easier for the person to do without remorse. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:40:55 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone At 8:56 -0500 12/9/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >Suppose a Kyriotate of Stone wants to design its own stone vessel, >sometime after character creation. How much essence would it cost? The >GMG (p. 18) says "15 pts per level, multiplied by the prospective >inhabitant's Forces", but methinks Kyriotates are a special case. This is a rather specialized question, since the only time celestials (other than Superiors) spend Essence for vessels is when they are stuck in Limbo, which doesn't normally happen to Kyrios. However, since Kyrios of Stone *can* have vessels, they presumably go to Limbo if their (only) host dies and they are Heartless (i.e., Outcast). > Not all >of their forces are ever going to be inhabiting that vessel. If it's the Kyrio's only host, they are. > Would it be >reasonable to assume that a human stone vessel, level 3, would then cost >3*15*5=225 essence instead of 405 essence, which is what it would be for a >9-Force Celestial who was not a Kyriotate? I wouldn't give them a discount -- they have to take *all* their Forces out of Limbo, so it has to be big enough for them. > (Of course, after the Kyrio >designs the vessel, it still has to get David to animate it, but that's a >whole 'nother can of worms.) For some reason, I've always presumed that the Kyrio can animate the vessel it inhabits, but I don't know of anything in canon that states this explicitly one way or the other. Kyrios of Jean and Novalis are allowed to animate their unusual vessels, though in a somewhat limited way; so I presumed this was possible for Stone as well -- it's not particularly useful to inhabit an immobile vessel that can do nothing but watch... except as a guardian of something. We wrote it up assuming animate vessels for GURPS In Nomine. Elizabeth, do you want to make a canon clarification on this? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:27:28 -0500 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: IN> [NPC] Urgore, Shedite of the War Urgore Shedite of the War Corporeal Forces 4 -- Strength 9 Agility 7 Ethereal Forces 2 -- Intelligence 3 Precision 5 Celestial Forces 3 -- Will 8 Perception 4 Vessel: n/a Skills: Fighting/5, Dodge/5, Ranged Weapon(Guns)/5, Tactics/2 Songs: Corporeal Projection/3, Corporeal Healing/4, Celestial Shields/5, Corporeal Form/4, Ethereal Tongues/5 Appearance: In its celestial form, Urgore appears as a floating collection of bloody knives, severed limbs, and unidentifiable viscera, rotating in rigid patterns reminiscent of soldiers on the march. Quote: "Human, know that I have seen you in your weakness. But instead of consolation I offer you strength, the strength to taste the blood of those who torment you, who abuse you, who wrong you. Refuse, and I will leave you be in this very instant to continue in your agony. But if there is red wrath in your heart then be glad and welcome me, for I am the fulfillment of your dreams and the nightmares of your enemies." Story: Even Baal's Shedim are possessed of the strange and terrible honor that marks the soldiers of Hell. Urgore is one such, recently tapped for Earth duty. It makes its way across the Earth, finding humans who have been terribly wronged -- perhaps a mother whose child was murdered, a businessman cheated out of his life's work, a wife whose husband is beating her -- and offers them a deal. If they let Urgore enter their bodies, it will use its strength to wreak vengeance against those who wronged them. The vengeance it works is never moderate and never subtle, for the bloody logic of honor and tragedy moves it. Murderers find that their victims don't die when shot, abusers find that the balance of strength has shifted to their intended victim, and at the last cowards find that their pleas for mercy fall on deaf ears. It damns the souls of those it possesses through the simple expedient of leaving their bodies at the last instant before vengeance is complete -- the human must choose to take the final step into murder. Urgore itself sees this as a necessary step; to its way of thinking revenge is a sacrament, and to deny the human the final blood is itself a terrible wrong. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:50:47 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Urgore, Shedite of the War Nicely written! If I ever run IN, he's going to be an NPC. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:08:53 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) Evidence for the Shedim damage being permanent: Extracted from the Cherub quote about them APG p33. "They simply take it [your soul], blacken it and move on." Likewise the Elohim quote APG p45 talks about them trying to undo the damage done. And on p51 of the APG the Malakim quote about them says that Malakim have to destroy the host after a Shedite has ridden the person as they leave the individual with no honor. Finally on p59 of the APG Kyriotates mention they can drag human souls down to Hell with them. Also the section on Shedim in the IPG which starts on p55 heavily implies that the effects are permanent. Also the memory alterations they do are permanent. Also in the main write up it (pg 151) it says a Shedim's host is convinced that the action is there idea. Now this doesn't mean all Shedim turn virtues people into slavering maniacs, maybe they make most people into leacherous individuals and move on. That is also corruption, but they leave a host behind who has had their behavor change. Remember unlike a Kyriotate the host of a Shedim is still in the body and aware, the demon wraps around there soul. They can imitate that person perfectly. Shedim are nasty buggers, their resonance is the most damaging to human kind. Sure someone with a strong Will and good heart that fell victom to a stronger Willed Shedim can redeem themselves after possession. In fact anyone with proper therapy and care (an Elohim would help right here) could bring them out of it. On the other hand a Shedim can (especially of the Game) totally transform the personality of someone, and turn them into an entirely different person in all but apperance (and it is impled in FotM that it is possile to rearrange the body of a human, at least Jordi can do it). Their very powerful suckers, at least if given time in someone. Its unlikely if that if their stopped at the pen stealing phase that the individual will be that bad off, and might even realize their is no point in stealing pens and cut that out. Once your at the slaughter people and bathe in their blood point I don't think the individual is going to get much better on there own, and even if they do their left in one hell of a bind. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 14:23:32 +0000 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Walter Milliken wrote: > > At 8:56 -0500 12/9/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: > > Would it be > >reasonable to assume that a human stone vessel, level 3, would then cost > >3*15*5=225 essence instead of 405 essence, which is what it would be for a > >9-Force Celestial who was not a Kyriotate? No, page 7 in Superiors 1 says that the KoS by their vessels for 3 [sic: character or experience] points per level of the vessel, like a standard vessel. It can even be de-manifested like a normal vessel. Size/shape/type of a living version of the vessel determines how many Forces the KoS must have free to inhabit it in order for it to manifest - -- "five to a humanoid stone vessel, one to a stone seagull, and so forth." Think of it as Abracadabra + Song of Possession. > For some reason, I've always presumed that the Kyrio can animate the vessel > it inhabits, but I don't know of anything in canon that states this > explicitly one way or the other. Kyrios of Jean and Novalis are allowed > to animate their unusual vessels, though in a somewhat limited way; so > I presumed this was possible for Stone as well -- it's not particularly > useful to inhabit an immobile vessel that can do nothing but watch... except > as a guardian of something. > > We wrote it up assuming animate vessels for GURPS In Nomine. And S1, page 7 backs you up on this -- "These vessels cost the usual 3 points per level, but MOVE at half speed, strike with +2 Power with bare hands or claws, ignore weather and any temperature that would not affect a statue, and have a natural Protection of 5." [emphasis on word move is mine, not SJG/IN's] > > Elizabeth, do you want to make a canon clarification on this? Maybe it is just my reading of the above, but I don't think she needs to, it already exists. However, that is just IMO and we all know about YMMV. > ---Walter Tom Timberlake, sometimes vessel of James, Malak of Stone. - -- "And so they linked their hands and danced, round in circles and in rows; And so the journey of the night descends, when all the shades are gone." "The Mummer's Dance" The Book of Secrets by Loreena McKennitt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:54:12 +1100 From: Chris Rose Subject: Re: IN> The Archangels At 08:00 AM 9/12/99 -0500, you wrote: > (Although I must say, the idea of having the >Bible primarily influenced by a Balseraph instead of God is most appealing. > Heck, I've thought of eliminating the guy altogether...just another >Balseraph lie. In some ways, it really makes sense, but I haven't worked >out all the details yet.) This makes a lot of sense ... If we're saying that God is a Balseraph lie, who told the lie in teh first place ? Well, after God, the next most powerful being in teh universe is ... A Balseraph. Scared Yet ? Chris Ofanite of Lightning Angel of Phone Tech Support "Do What Thou Wilt, but Be Cool" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 18:16:38 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Yes, as directly potrayed in canon, the angels are (mostly) good and the demons are (mostly) evil, and the biggest dispute on the angelic side is about means, not ends. On the other hand, plenty of of moral ambiguity can be worked into even a pure-Canon campaign. Imagine a Ofanim of Animals. He's charged by Jordi to "extract revenge upon those who mistreat the creatures of the air, or destroy them for any reason except for food." And he sees a ten-year-old boy with a BB gun shoot a bird in the head for kicks. This angel would both be fulfilling his charge as an Ofanim of Jordi and not violating *any* Canon-established restrictions on his actions if he were to respond by putting a bullet in the boy's head. The immorality of killing humans isn't established in Canon (APG p.19). Now, sure, he might get a stern talking to -- but would Jordi inflict a punishment on an angel doing in miniature what Jordi himself wanted to do to all humanity (APG p.7)? Now, knowing that the angel is working within the guidelines his Archangel has set, how should your PC angels react? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:24:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity At 9:45 PM -0600 12/8/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Wrong. Unless the section changed radically during playtest there should be all kinds of ways of portraying Lucifer including with Style, Pride, Deviousness, Humor, Sympathy, and yes even Evil in the section tilted Lucifer's Personality (page 112). But Evil is no more of a requirement than Humor.<<< > >Wrong. It didn't change during playtest, and Evil is defined to be a >fundamental part of Lucifer's nature. There are, however, several different ways listed that a GM might choose instead, which means that a GM can adjust to suit his or her own biases and sense of obnoxiousness. However, the basic view, while evil, isn't AS evil as the alternates suggest one could go! Very first paragraph of the "alternates" segment starts, "For an even darker Lucifer"... But yeah, the default Lucifer is not what you'd call _nice_. Though very, very charismatic. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:35:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone At 8:56 AM -0500 12/9/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >Suppose a Kyriotate of Stone wants to design its own stone vessel, >sometime after character creation. How much essence would it cost? Unless he's in Limbo, 0 -- he has to get his Archangel to make it for him. (Yes, the main book has some bad phrasing. For a while there, from some old drafts of the game I've seen, Essence _was_ character points in a funky way! So if you bought a vessel, you paid out Essence...) The Forces required to animate a stone vessel are equivalent for a normal vessel of that type. So a human statue vessel will require 5 Forces to animate, and will cost David the appropriate Essence to build. Getting out of Limbo, I'm with Walter -- the vessel will have to contain every Force the Kyriotate has. (Hey, the Kyrio is lucky -- most Dominations just die if they get stuck without a host and are Outcast... And any Kyriotate worth its salt has a good Will, so sticking around in Limbo won't be as hard for it as it might be for other Choirs.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:37:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More Morals At 9:36 AM -0500 12/9/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Matt W. wrote: > >> Oh no, God just seems to off in the distance, since the main bits of >> him are up in the far Heavens. He's not indifferent. > >I'll say He isn't, since, according to canon, He intervenes directly >every time a character rolls 111. Or else He's set wheels in motion long ago that just _happen_ to spring out on a 111, or actually Archangels answer 111s, or the Symphony has these _reflexes_ that are triggered on a 111... (All alternate viewpoints from the GMG.) Or some combination of the above. hee. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:39:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) At 9:52 AM -0600 12/9/99, Dennis Groome V wrote: >[...] but >those small, little evils -- the ones that aren't really that much of a bad >thing...boosting a pen, lying to a friend -- may stick, or at lest become a >lot easier for the person to do without remorse. Which, come to think of it, means that Shedim are probably instructed by their Princes _not_ to ride hosts into destruction and depravity. Because a host might wallow in depravity after the Shedite leaves, or might repent greatly -- but those little selfish actions, those are more likely to stick and pave the way to a fate that leads the human to Hell where the Princes can get their hands on the new Essence battery. Hmmmmmm.... Interesting thought.... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1454 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.