From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Dec 12 00:38:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07784 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:38:38 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA05768 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:37:19 -0600 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:37:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199912120637.AAA05768@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1456 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, December 12 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1456 In this digest: Re: IN> More Morals IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches Re: IN> Missing post? End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> The Archangels IN> The Soul of a New Machine -- Part I Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine -- Part I IN> [Admin] Watch out for viri! IN> [ADMIN] DON'T DO THIS. (Re: The Soul of a New Machine -- Part I) Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) Re: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches IN> The 'Primal' Angels Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> Dogma Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) Re: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches Re: IN> Dogma ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:48:35 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> More Morals From: Matt W. > To put it simply, God is Eli, or at least some piece of him. Just > kicking back and enjoying life with the humans he loves. you could also make the same argument that god is dominic or uriel... liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:36:52 -0800 From: "Glenn D. Brown" Subject: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches The recent discussion of an ethereal cyberspace reminds me of the ethereal AI NPC who appeared in the Liber Servitorum, 17 Electronica Turbine 42. Electonica claimed to be one of a new type of primal spirit, with an Affinity for technology, and perhaps for lightning as well. Some celestials believed this claim, but others thought Electronica was just a dream fragment created by Nikola Telsa. Each GM could decide which of these two explanations of Electronica's true nature was correct. I'm curious to know how you (would use/have used) Electronica in your campaigns. And why? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:07:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Missing post? At 12:00 PM -0400 12/10/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >H'm. Last night I posted a long (40k+) scenario to the list. It was >called "The Soul of a New Machine", and was bout the creation of an AI. > >Did this just vanish into the ether? > >Is there a size limit on posts? > >Should I try again? NO! DO **NOT** post 40K+ material to the list! Put it on your web site or talk with EDG about putting it on the INC, and put a POINTER to it, but 40K is TOO LONG! Geeze, people... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:09:40 -0500 From: "Jo Hart" (by way of Elizabeth McCoy) Subject: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) From: "Jo Hart" Subject: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:52:38 PST We're still not getting Dogma until Christmas here, but I saw End of Days last night. If you haven't seen it, don't bother. Easily the worst film I've seen all year. It's only redeeming feature was that Gabriel Byrne did a great turn as Belial, even down to the tailored suits, total u n s u b tlety, and tendency to blow up pretty much everything. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:30:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After At 8:57 PM -0500 12/9/99, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >I still think the Shedim's main problem is bad PR, mostly, since I >don't think that the evil that they do is substantially worse than >anyone who is self-centered and basically insensitive to others does. They just want to help all the humans see the TRUTH they know, eh? "Look, it doesn't matter. Do this. You like it, right? So why not do it? Who cares about the other guy. He doesn't care about you. And you _want_ to do it. Hey, I'm helping you here..." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:34:05 +1100 From: "Cathal" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After I am prolly paraphrasing it badly but it fits the topic, it was Spike in Buffy the vampire slayer, when he was talking about stopping Angel from destroying the world "Sure I mean all we vampires TALK about destroying the world, but thats just big lads talk. I mean I LIKE the world, it's given us dog racing and Machester United..but then along comes the man with the plan..." I mean IMHO thats close to the view a lot of demons would have, they LIKE earth(it's a lot better than hell at least) and most wouldn;t be too keen on any apocalypse type thing :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:34:15 -0500 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> The Archangels Tim Groth wrote: > >>Actually last time they crossed tails Michael won the contest of second most >>powerful being in the universe. What would happen if they fought today is >>anyone's guess... > >Well actually Michael just succeded in tossing Lucifer out of Heaven. >Which means he beat him in celestial combat, which may reflect more on >Michaels prowress at combat as well as the fact that Lucifer was in the >middle of being the first angel to Fall and feeling the shift in nature. >Which probably wouldn't not help one in a fight. See Michael was never >more powerful, he just had the advantage in their battle. Of course, Lucifer doesn't really DOESN'T EXIST, and neither does God. Michael is a Balseraph, as is Baal. The two of them cooked up the WHOLE STORY about God and Lucifer as an EXCUSE to have a Big-Ass Fight(TM). Why hasn't anyone noticed? Because Michael is a BALSERAPH. Anyone tries to question and he says "I'm a SERAPH. Now get out there and beat up some demons." And when someone asks Baal the same thing, he says, "Lucifer would KICK YOUR ASS if you doubted. And so will I, right now, unless you go out and beat up some angels." And why doesn't MICHAEL like Yves? Because he's SCREWING UP the story. Same deal for Baal and Kronos -- who CARES about Fate or Destiny, when the Real Deal is that there's a Big-Ass Fight(TM) going on that's spanning all of reality? Remember, according to the FAKE story, Michael beat up Lucifer, and why would he waste his time being BAAL's rival if he could trivially beat up Lucifer? It's because Lucifer NEVER EXISTED -- and who can feel good about beating up some FIGMENT of the IMAGINATION. You can only feel GOOD about beating someone REAL, like Baal. (Sorry, I just felt like posting an absurd conspiracy theory filled with gratuitous capitalization.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:32:24 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> The Soul of a New Machine -- Part I Okay, sorry, excuse me... I didn't realize there was a size limit on posts. My bad. Well, then, let me break this up into smaller, more manageable chunks. I assume there's no objection to that? * * * * * SUMMARY In this scenario, a group of mortal scientists are trying to produce a true Artificial Intelligence (AI). The GM will decide beforehand whether they have succeeded, and if so, with what results; there are five possibilities, presented as the five "versions" of LOLA. The PCs must investigate the situation, find out what LOLA really is, and take actions appropriate to their natures and their Superiors. I see this as an adventure with a strong philosophical subtext; PCs should be encouraged to speculate and discuss the appropriate responses to a new sort of intelligence in the world. However, there's plenty of room to throw in mystery, combat, or what have you. HOOKS Possible ways to begin: A strange new dreamscape has appeared in the Marches; it resembles nothing that any human mind has ever produced, and is strangely difficult to investigate. Its origins have been traced to a town in central North America... Marc or Mammon has noticed a diversion of funds to a research project at the University of Illinois (U of I). One of the more warlike Superiors (Laurence, Baal) suspects that it may be some sort of weapons project. The PCs are sent to investigate... A PC with a relevant role (hacker, lawyer, scientist) accidentally runs across a document suggesting that a very big, very secret computer research project, with possible military applications, is taking place at the U of I... Servitors of Jean or Vapula notice that an awful lot of processing power is being rented on a local supercomputer. Inquiries show that it's being used by someone in Champaign, Illinois, at the University of Illinois. A cursory examination shows that there's more security around this than there ought to be... The idea is to send the PCs to the U of I with only a very vague idea of what they're looking for, and few details. The GM should decide beforehand whether the PCs are the only group investigating LOLA. A rival group, of course, will spice things up considerably. On the other hand, this runs the risk of making the scenario more of a standard competition/combat adventure (not that there's anything wrong with that...). The rival group should not have more information than the PCs. If the PCs are loud or clumsy, however, they will attract attention, and another investigation will certainly take form. THE SETTING The University of Illinois is one of the world's centers for cutting-edge computer research. A map of the campus is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/navigation/maps/all_campus.html The U of I is also one of the country's largest public universities, with over 30,000 students and faculty; it includes a law school, a medical school, and a whole variety of associated research facilities. The U of I is located in the "twin" towns of Champaign and Urbana, Illinois, about 130 miles south of Chicago. Champaign and Urbana together make up a small city, with a population of around 120,000 people. The University is the cities' largest employer, and in most respects "C-U" is a pretty typical Midwestern college town. At any given time, there are only about a dozen or so Celestials in Champaign. A few are described below; the GM can of course add his own. Tethers and Seneschals -- There are only two Tethers in the area, and they're both quite small -- "minor" Tethers, if you're using the Book of Tethers. Novalis has one in the back yard of a house in Urbana, about a mile east of campus. The house has been owned by a small commune since 1970; the Tether formed a year later, when three Vietnam vets turned pacifists successfully used nonviolent resistance to defend against evection. About 15 people are living there at the moment. The house doubles as an occasional shelter for battered women, so the inhabitants are used to odd comings and goings; a couple of the older members know that Grant is not human, although they don't have full knowledge of the War (hey, man... whatever he is,he's a friend). Two of the younger members design web pages and have some computing skills (level 3). There's a big garden in the back yard, nearly an acre; the Tether itself is the back half of the garden, where sunflowers nod over rows of tomatoes and peppers. The Seneschal is Grant, a Mercurian Friend of Flowers. He presents as a rather hairy middle-aged man, and has a Role as a Commune member. Grant is a fairly powerful 14-Force angel with plenty of songs and attunements. He won't have much information about the LOLA project, but he'll be very helpful to any angelic party. He knows the university and the local Celestial community very well. Although this is a minor Tether, it's the only one of Novalis' between Chicago and the deep South, so it gets a fair amount of traffic. At any given time, there'll be 1d-3 visitors there... angels, relievers, Soldiers, GM's choice. Grant pays attention to all of Champaign-Urbana, both on campus and off, and will quickly become aware of anything unusual in town. If you're using the Book of Tethers, this one has 3 Forces and a modest Flow of 1 Essence per hour. Andrealphus has a Tether in the basement of a fraternity on the west side of campus, near the railroad tracks, where a particularly unpleasant episode of mass date rape took place a few years back. The Seneschal is Raul, an Impudite Knight who has a Role as a grad student "big brother" residing in the fraternity. Raul has a very cozy niche; he Charms everyone in each incoming class and gets them started on a life of devotion to sins of the flesh, while snitching Essence on a regular basis. Raul has 13 Forces and a modest number of Songs. For a Seneschal, he's not all that powerful, but Prince Andre has granted him an assistant in the form of a 6-Force Imp with a pigeon vessel and a couple of Songs (for extra security, since the Tether is Noisy). Raul also has charmed the frat boys repeatedly, reducing their resistance to the point where they are an almost bottomless well of Essence. They will do almost anything for him, up to and including minor crimes. After all, he's the man with the endless supplies of Ecstasy and Rohypnol... Raul will help Diabolicals as long as his comfortable niche isn't threatened in any way, but he's basically a lazy creature who wants a quiet life. He could probably get some information about the LOLA project if he was persuaded (threatened) -- he has a girlfriend who worked on the Game Room -- but when the PCs meet him, he knows nothing. This Tether has 4 Forces and a flow of 1 Essence every 20 minutes, but it's also Noisy at level 10 (any celestial within a few blocks will probably pick up on it). It doesn't get that many visitors, so it's unlikely that any other demons or Hellsworn will be there (2d6-10, if a random check is desired). Dominic used to have a tether at the law school, but it never got much use, and seems to have gradually faded away. Besides the two seneschals, there are three or four other Celestials in town; the GM can fill in details to fit. There's at least one demon on the faculty -- a Balseraph of Malphas -- but he works in the English Department, fomenting endless arguments about deconstruction. He wouldn't be much use to a party looking for LOLA, though he'd help if ordered to by his boss, and could be useful for introducing PCs to the college administration. There's also at least one Symphonically aware Soldier of David working on campus, in the athletic department. Note that the modest population of Celestials means that the campus is Symphonically rather quiet, aside from the localized hum and burble of the Lust-tether. Noisy PCs will be noticed fairly quickly, and reports will go up or down to the appropriate destinations. NPCs should be able to provide a few clues, but the PCs should have to do a certain amount of legwork and thinking. (to be continued, if no one objects) Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:51:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone At 9:38 PM -0500 12/9/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >Elizabeth wrote: > >> At 8:56 AM -0500 12/9/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >> >Suppose a Kyriotate of Stone wants to design its own stone vessel, >> >sometime after character creation. How much essence would it cost? >> >> Unless he's in Limbo, 0 -- he has to get his Archangel to make it >> for him. (Yes, the main book has some bad phrasing. For a while >> there, from some old drafts of the game I've seen, Essence _was_ >> character points in a funky way! So if you bought a vessel, you >> paid out Essence...) > >Harumph. I hate to start crossing out lines in my nice new GMG already... > >p. 18: "It's said only Superiors can create a vessel, but this isn't >precisely true [...] he will still need a >Superior to complete the final steps." Same difference, to my mind. Yeah, you can create a _thing_, but it's hardly a _vessel_ if you can't use it as one! It's also darned hard to get that much Essence... >I thought it would be rather interesting to let a Kyrio with Stone's >attunement, as well as Artistry (Sculpture), carve its own vessel over a >few months of between-adventures time. Oh, sure -- but I'd be more inclined to phrase it as, the Kyrio is carving a statue (either corporeally, or out of whatever passes for matter celestially), and then calls David and asks, "Pretty please, make it my vessel?" (Or words to that effect.) For living vessels like the average human, I'd insist on Primordial Clay on the corporeal plane -- the GMG, to my knowledge, didn't mean to let people make their vessels out of anything BUT Essence! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:44:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine -- Part I Douglas Muir wrote: > The University of Illinois is one of the world's centers for > cutting-edge computer research. Furthermore, Urbana is also the home town of HAL 9000, the computer in the movie "2001." As he was being torn down by a vengeful astronaut, he went into an infantile demo mode and was heard to recite: "Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. I am an HAL 9000 computer. I was built at the Hal Plant in Urbana, Illinois, in 1995..." (That seemed so far in the future, then...) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:58:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [Admin] Watch out for viri! I've got about a half-dozen, maybe more, bounces from various automated places saying, "Watch it, you've got a virus!" So definitely everyone make sure they don't send Happythingies.exe stuff to the list, or I'll be not-so-happy.... O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:00:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] DON'T DO THIS. (Re: The Soul of a New Machine -- Part I) At 4:32 PM -0400 12/10/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >Okay, sorry, excuse me... I didn't realize there was a size limit on posts. >My bad. > >Well, then, let me break this up into smaller, more manageable chunks. I >assume there's no objection to that? There is. No matter how many parts it's in, it's a LOT of material. As I said, put it on a WEB SITE and give a URL. DO NOT SEND THIS MUCH MATERIAL TO THE LIST. If anyone is in doubt as to if something is too big, ASK THE LIST ADMIN for permission to post it. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:58:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Cathal wrote: > I mean IMHO thats close to the view a lot of demons would have, they > LIKE earth(it's a lot better than hell at least) and most wouldn;t > be too keen on any apocalypse type thing :) Yes, I think Hell, as well as Heaven, can be divided into War and Peace parties. The difference is that, in Heaven, War vs. Peace is approximately Justice vs. Mercy, while in Hell, War vs. Peace is approximately Destruction vs. Corruption. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:35:35 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After It seems to me that the big split in Hell is between the old guard and the young turks. The younger princes don't find the war itself very relevant, and certainly don't care about God -- they never rebelled. The old ones, even if they hate each other, have more of a common cause. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:43:52 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone From: Walter Milliken > There's certainly nothing non-canon in this notion that I can see, to > this point. It basically boils down to "angel makes a neat sculpture; > angel asks Superior to make it into a vessel for him." Seems perfectly > reasonable to me. this gives me images of pygmalion really being a soldier of creation who produced vessels for servitors of stone or something liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:40:05 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) > > After all, without Michael, Heaven's greatest battles would be lost. > > OTOH, Silent Bob doesn't FEEL all that War to me. Didn't he retreat >from > > combat in Mall Rats? Maybe Yves, maybe . . . Eli? Don't know why Eli >comes > > to mind. Perhaps . . . because he's also the Director. :) > >Well, think of it this way. He used "Knocks out strong odors" to kill that >disgusting demon. And while it doesn't take Eli's influence to turn a >golf-club into a weapon, it certainly couldn't hurt. >In Mallrats, he's able to find a Death-Star like weakness, capable of >totalling a stage. (Granted, the plan doesn't work, but you see my point.) >I also believe that Jay makes a comment that he turned his mom's vibrator >into a stereo for a science fair project. While that could suggest Jean, >it >also doesn't rule out Eli. ha ha ha . . . thank you for speaking for my unconscious awareness. :) I love being me. :) Huh, Malakite of Eli. Bitchin'. >If you _really_ want to read too much into it, consider the fact that he >always wears black. Is (almost) always silent. But is really good at >killing demons with simple objects... Sounds like another recent >conversation, n'est-ce pas? Vow: Communicate verbally only for the benefit of others. I don't remember what he says in Chasing Amy, though. I remember that it was really long. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:46:27 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After >Cathal wrote: > > > I mean IMHO thats close to the view a lot of demons would have, they > > LIKE earth(it's a lot better than hell at least) and most wouldn;t > > be too keen on any apocalypse type thing :) > >Yes, I think Hell, as well as Heaven, can be divided into War and >Peace parties. The difference is that, in Heaven, War vs. Peace >is approximately Justice vs. Mercy, while in Hell, War vs. Peace >is approximately Destruction vs. Corruption. So, why would the ultimate battle between Heaven and Hell be the end of Creation? Or is that only if HEAVEN wins? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:49:01 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) >We're still not getting Dogma until Christmas here, but I saw End of Days >last night. If you haven't seen it, don't bother. Easily the worst film >I've >seen all year. > >It's only redeeming feature was that Gabriel Byrne did a great turn as >Belial, even down to the tailored suits, total u n s u b tlety, and >tendency to >blow up pretty much everything. Kewl!!! I wanna go see it!!! Was he actually called Belial in the movie? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:36:57 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) >From: "Perry Lloyd" >Kewl!!! I wanna go see it!!! Was he actually called Belial in the movie? > Nah, he was supposed to be Lucifer, but you'll see what I mean ;) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:37:18 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches >The recent discussion of an ethereal cyberspace reminds me of the ethereal >AI NPC who appeared in the Liber Servitorum, 17 Electronica Turbine 42. >Electonica claimed to be one of a new type of primal spirit, with an >Affinity for technology, and perhaps for lightning as well. Some celestials >believed this claim, but others thought Electronica was just a dream >fragment created by Nikola Telsa. Each GM could decide which of these two >explanations of Electronica's true nature was correct. I'm curious to know >how you (would use/have used) Electronica in your campaigns. And why? I find the expression "new primal spirit" to be a contradiction in terms. Webster's Dictionary (unabridged and encyclopedic) defines primal as: (1) being first in time; original. (which I believe is the usage in this case) (2) of first importance; primary. (which I do not believe is the usage in this case) To me, this implies that primal spirits come before, or at the beginning, of something. Whether this something is the beginning of everything or the beginning of other somethings, occuring at other times, is important. If it's the beginning of *everything*, then 17ET42 should be as old any other primal spirit. (Which is may be, but why is this the first sign of him or others like him?) If it's the beginning of other somethings, occuring at other times, then I can see how it would be possible for 17ET42 to be of recent birth, coming into being so that technology could as well. However, this calls into question what the requirements are for something to have (or be of) a primal spirit. So far, in canon, there exist primal spirits of Fire, Lightning, Rain, Storms, Snow, Wind, Stone, Jewels, Gold, Water, Animals, Plants, Moon, and Sun. I note that most or all of these primal spirits represent something that occurs naturally. (Meaning: occurs in nature without the interference, or help, of humankind.) However, I also note that all of those things for which there are primal spirits also happen to be things in which humankind, pretty much as a whole, has had significant interest. (Funny there isn't a primal spirit of humankind . . .) Jewels are stone and Gold is metal. Ignoring any possible inherent ability within precious stones to manipulate energy fields (which would refer to the stones perhaps more properly as crystals), the only reason these two items would be considered seperate (that I see) is because of the degree to which they are valued by humankind. The value attached to them may be the reason they have primal spirit representing them. Likewise, if other things were to be which humankind had interest in, more or less as a whole, then therefore there should exist a primal spirit for that thing. Perhaps the second definition of primal *should* be considered. However, this obviously runs counter to their description as being "elemental forces, dreams of the sleeping earth, leftover bits from the days of creation." (TM, pg 105) I'm not quite sure why Gold would be/have a primal spirit, unless it's become important enough itself to be a seperate entity or idea in earth's dreams, perhaps because of the role its played in human history. Which may be why technology is now the new kid on the block. But, technology isn't a leftover bit from the days of creation, is it? But, why would Jewels be and, say, Iron or Bronze not be? So, I guess it comes down to whether or not primal spirits are products of the earth's dreams only, or only the result from the beginning of creation (in which case I question the validity of Gold and Jewels as being candidates as primal spirits). - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Mucal invader, is there no end to your oozing?!" - The Tick The Uncommon Cold ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:31:15 +0000 From: werther@hilander.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: IN> The 'Primal' Angels >So far, in canon, there exist primal spirits of Fire, Lightning, Rain, >Storms, Snow, Wind, Stone, Jewels, Gold, Water, Animals, Plants, Moon, and >Sun. >I note that most or all of these primal spirits represent something that >occurs naturally. (Meaning: occurs in nature without the interference, or >help, of humankind.) >However, I also note that all of those things for which there are primal >spirits also happen to be things in which humankind, pretty much as a whole, >has had significant interest. (Funny there isn't a primal spirit of >humankind . . .) I'd noticed this, too. It had occured to me that, in Celestial, words like these most accurately translate into "The Qualities that Humans Associate with " rather than just "". The Archangels that we see represented in the course of the game are actually founded upon human perceptions - this is why they can adopt human vessels and need to promote their Words. The Higher Heavens are the home of the real Superiors of impersonal forces - the Angel of Gravity or Combustion or all those li'l grass-growing Relievers that are completely unfathomable and, as such, unsuitable for PC Servitors. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:11:45 EST From: Dreadblade0328@aol.com Subject: Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) In a message dated 12/11/99 3:38:02 AM Central Standard Time, j_hart@hotmail.com writes: << Nah, he was supposed to be Lucifer, but you'll see what I mean ;) >> And his celestial form looked more like Cthulhu than an angel of light, which is how Lucifer is bibically described. Devil's Advocate was a better Lucifer movie: he actually performs his role of tempter and adversary. In End of Days, he's just a wholesale butcher. Dreadblade, Lilite of Change ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:47:45 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After From: Neel Krishnaswami > Why is everyone so down on the Shedim? They aren't particularly worse > than most people, and certainly aren't worse than most of the other IN > demonic bands. I agree that the *average* Shedite isn't any worse than an average demon of any other Band. And the least evil possible Shedite isn't remarkably evil in and of itself. But, the Shedim are the *only* band/chior that (when corporeal) *must* promote evil, every day, or suffer Dissonance. Only Servitors of Kobal[1] also have must-promote-evil daily requirements. So, the least evil possible non-Discordant Shedite in the universe is more evil than the least evil possible non-Discordant member of any other Band. [1] The Malphas requirement can be twisted to good or neutral ends, like setting evil against itself; Nybbas's demons have to grow the world media, which isn't necessarily evil; Haagenti's demons can act on a less-than-daily basis; Servitors of Fleurity have to promote drug use, but not necessarily abuse -- they can go around telling people with hypertension to use their blood pressure medication. But Kobalites *must* make people's lives worse. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:37:55 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF > >I saw it with a friend, and I described it in IN terms as we left the >theatre... > I did one better: instead of having my weekly session that night, I took my entire IN gaming group. every so often I'll do this when I find a movie that would be good to watch from an IN perspective. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:54:45 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF >It seems to me that the big split in Hell is between the old guard and the >young turks. > >The younger princes don't find the war itself very relevant, and certainly >don't care about God -- they never rebelled. The old ones, even if they hate >each other, have more of a common cause. I wouldn't say that. what about DPs like Andre and Kobal? they're as old as Baal and Belial and were there in the rebellion just like them. I don't really see how age has much to do with it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:05:38 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: End of Days (was Re: IN> Dogma) From: Jo Hart (by way of Elizabeth McCoy) > It's only redeeming feature was that Gabriel Byrne did a great turn as > Belial, even down to the tailored suits, total u n s u b tlety, and tendency to > blow up pretty much everything. i saw it today. it was pretty enjoyable, in a highly cheesey way. i liked gabriel byrne's take on god as the "greatest underachiever ever". quite funny liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:10:33 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches From: Perry Lloyd > However, this obviously runs counter to their description as being > "elemental forces, dreams of the sleeping earth, leftover bits from the days > of creation." (TM, pg 105) maybe it's a combination of the two, they're small bits of primal energy that have gained more power and a little sentience thanks to the thoughts of humanity liam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:37:51 -0600 From: Webb Subject: Re: IN> Dogma Warning: Some Spoilers >> Bartleby, Outcast Elohite of Dominic > >I prefer him as a Grigori. That would be yet another reason why he got Loki >kicked out of Heaven, after all. *g* > Actually, it seemed a lot more like he was a Malakite of Flowers. Because he convinced a violent angel that perhaps violence was not always the answer. I reject him being a Mercurian, mainly because he never really uses the Mercurian resonance. He never describes the relationships people have with each other. He describes what sins they have committed (i.e. the most dishonorable things they have done recently or at all, such as sleeping with young girls, cheating on their boyfriends, etc. etc.) The reason he goes psychotic later is that on the train, he grabs some dissonance for grabbing the Last Zion and using violence as an answer, and kept at it. BONG! BONG! BONG! This probably got transferred into the discord of Rage, at some ungodly level (no pun intended), or something similiar, which explains his sudden change in behavior. As for Loki, definitely Malakim, probably of Gabriel, actually. (Divine Wrath, picks specific targets, gets ideas on who to go after and who is committing sin, think about it) Of course, maybe he might *be* Gabriel, with a few tweaks in her description. He did "rain down sulfur" and so forth. Not the type of thing your average Malakite is able to do. And the Hockey Players, definitely a small group of 7-Force Calabim recruited from somewhere in Abaddon, Gehenna or Stygia by Azrael. (very a la Feast of Blades) As for good old Azrael, he is hard to pin down. Balseraph seems to be a good choice, he was always posing as something else, and he does have the absolute smugness usually associated with them. Impudite, perhaps, if it wasn't for the fact he let his Calabite flunkies kill the housewife right in front of him, and enjoyed it. Calabim, too neat, not destructive enough. Habbalah, nope, convinced he's a demon, hates God. Shedite, he did mention that he was supposed to be on Earth on a routine possession, but the rest just doesn't jive right, still a possibility. Lilim, nope, it's described that he fell. Pachadim? Not their style, they make people feel bad about things and uncomfortable with themselves, can't rule that completely out though. Fallen Malakim? Hmmm... never happens... honestly... As for his Prince, likely candidates abound. He certainly caused a lot of factioning, so Malphas. The sheer Machiavellian nature of his plan indicates Asmodeus, so does his paranoia. His joke about the Holy Bartender and the Bond film comment make him a good candidate for being a servitor of Dark Humor. And ending all exist via the Catholic Church is a decent joke. Might make old K smirk just a bit. Serendipity? For some reason, she strikes me a Bright Lilim. Don't ask me why, just the strip club scene alone... Metatron is a being much like Yves. In fact, maybe he is Yves. Direct divine splinter sent for specific tasks, IMHO. Jay and Silent Bob require special treatment. They are Prophets (a la CPG) and receive divine visions. That does not mean they are aligned with any Archangels. However, after this little incident, they'll probably be inducted into the War. Silent Bob perhaps has been given a force by a Malakite and has earned the Malakite of Creation attunement. Jay, perhaps Soldier of Animals. Well, he does one thing like an animal. Rufus, a Saint, definitely. I like Novalis (he does try to talk his way out of everything), Yves or Eli. His thing about actually *having* ideas of your own rules out David, Laurence, and Khalid. The only problem that I have is that them sitting in the bar, held hostage by Azrael, as Loki and Bartleby are tearing up the news conference. Can you say big *#! celestial disturbance??? Like they needed a TV to figure out that was going on. The scriptwriter? Kobal. # Matt W # + Balseraph of Dark Humor + = Seraph of Revelation = ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1456 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.