From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Dec 18 17:37:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10080 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:37:05 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA24171 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:33:02 -0600 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:33:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199912182333.RAA24171@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1464 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, December 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1464 In this digest: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) IN> The Holy Trinity Re: IN> Movie Trailer: Judgment Among The Flowers Re: IN> Copts and Robers Re: IN> The Holy Trinity IN> My Second Movie Trailer: Dark Destiny, Bright Fate IN> AD: Borrow up to 125% of your home's value Re: IN> Arianism Re: IN> Monophysite Re: IN> Arius' teaching on Jesus' nature Re: IN> The Holy Trinity Re: IN> Copts and Robers IN> Redeemed Malakim Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN SJG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:31:07 -0500 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Neel wrote: > >> I'll butt in here to point out that there is another heresy called >> Arianism which also states that Christ had a single nature -- the >> difference from the Monophysites is that Arians believed that Christ >> had a purely human nature. > >Sorry, no. From long and intimate acquaintance with the issue >(which is another story), I know that this is something often >said of the Arians, but that is not what Arius preached. > >For Web data on this issue, see > > http://cedar.evansville.edu/~ecoleweb/arians/arianchr.htm Thanks for the link! It's the first place I've ever seen the word "eructation" used in any context. Literally, it means a belch -- I take it means something like a piece of God that has been emitted by Him in theology. I am also now sure that I have no idea what Arius actually preached; his /Letter to Alexander of Alexandria/ seems to deny every possible explanation of Jesus's nature. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:44:43 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Holy Trinity >>>It might be fun to have Eli (the Creator) and Yves *and* Jesus all be God Himself (or the Logos, for Arians).<<< Yves: Father. Eli: Son. God: Holy Ghost. Discuss. - -David (somehow, that just clicked) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:47:26 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Movie Trailer: Judgment Among The Flowers At 1:04 PM -0500 12/17/99, Dan Weaver wrote: [. . . Snipped. . .] Hee-hee-hee. Sick. I love it! Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:39:22 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Copts and Robers At 2:23 PM -0700 12/15/99, Tim Groth wrote: > > Mark (Who wants to know if he can get Rambling Essence for this...) > >Oh yeah you definetly get the Rambling Rite. One question, where can one >find the Book of Enoch? Most larger bookstores, or Amazon.com. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:44:23 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Holy Trinity At 6:44 PM -0500 12/17/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>It might be fun to have Eli (the Creator) and Yves *and* Jesus >all be God Himself (or the Logos, for Arians).<<< > >Yves: Father. > >Eli: Son. > >God: Holy Ghost. > >Discuss. > >-David (somehow, that just clicked) It does. Though to keep things in IN terms, I'd say Metatron was the Holy Spirit. (And yes, I know Lucifer said he killed him. Lucifer lies. It's what he *does,* man. I kind of like the idea of Metatron being the force of God's Mystery on Earth and in Heaven, Eli God's incarnate Creation on Earth, and Yves God's Destiny in Heaven. But then, I've always liked the Eli->Christ IN-Herasy. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:18:59 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> My Second Movie Trailer: Dark Destiny, Bright Fate Didn't I say it was the season for this sort of thing? Here, have a taste of my second movie trailer. Enjoy! http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine/ddbf/movie_trailer.html (I _know_ Destiny isn't dark, and Fate is never bright. . . But hey, makes for a keen title! Besides which, if you knew the _whole_ story, who knows. . . };;;>) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:59:05 -0800 From: payoffdebts@thecornerbank.fsnet.co.uk Subject: IN> AD: Borrow up to 125% of your home's value See bottom for removal instructions. ___________________________________________________ You can now comparison shop thousands of loan programs through hundreds of lenders by filling in a single short form. Let lenders compete for your business! Cash back refinances No Equity 2nd Trust Deeds Debt Consolidation No Income Verification The most competitive interest rates. Fill in our quick pre-qualification form and choose the best offer. Visit this website: http://3499894548/%7ElI0 or Click here for your free loan evaluation It may take up to 20 seconds for the page to start loading. Please be patient. If an error is displayed, press reload and the page will open. There is NEVER any fee or obligation for using our service. The Home Loan Source 4654 E Ave S, Suite B-102 Palmdale, CA 93552 ________________________________________________________ 咫誑咫誧咫誑咫誧咫誑咫賓六市六妨六市六妨六市六妨六市六 To be removed: Reply to this message with just the word remove in the subject or body. We will never trade or sell your e-mail address and we promise to honor all remove requests. ________________________________________________________ 咫誑咫誧咫誑咫誧咫誑咫賓六市六妨六市六妨六市六妨六市六 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:45:17 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Arianism In a message dated 12/17/99 7:42:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, earlw@mc.com writes: > > My own feeling about John 1:1 is that the translation should be > arranged to skirt the issue and read as "the Word was divine," which > a few English translations already do. > The only problem with that is that the word is 'theos.' Specifically, the phrase is 'kai theos eyn ho logos' (transliterated the best I can: 'th' is a theta, 'ey' is an eta), word for word it's 'and god was the word.' The problem is the lack of an article modifing theos. Divine is inappropriate, because its the singular masculine nomitive form of the word, not an adjectival form. But enough Koine Greek. > Now for the In Nomine bit: > > > Which brings me back to an interesting thought for an In Nomine > > campaign. What if Jesus (known as the Christ) is a word-bound Saint > > whose word is Words. As in the process of granting Angelic words. > > Would that then become an Arian campaign? > > Well, it would be a non-canonical campaign, since Saints don't get > Words in canon. I don't think it would be Arian since, as I've > said, Arianism describes Jesus as the first and greatest creature, > not an exalted human. > Ok then, not a Saint, but a Higher heavens being. The idea is that the word Words, or Logos if you prefer, is what allowed the assignment of words to angels. I was scrambling my terminology. > Were you envisioning Jesus as Saint of Words being the one who > gives out divine Words, removing that function from the Seraphim > Council? > > I think the doctrine for the campaign you descibe is called Adoptionism. > > To do an Arian campaign, one might have Yves be the Logos and have > been human for 30 years on Earth, as Jesus. This is because Yves > is consistently described as the first soul created by God. > > If Yves was only wearing a vessel during his life as Jesus, then > the campaign is not only Arian but Monophysite. > Yes, this would work as well. The only argument against it is that Yves is clearly considered an angelic being in In Nomine. My understanding is that Jesus/the Logos is not considered an angelic being in Arianism. > Of course, if the Logos/Jesus/Yves is still simultaneously human > and divine (as in orthodox Christianity), he might manifest in > the Lower Heavens as both Yves AND a "St. Jesus of the Word," who > would be a major addition to the cast of characters, of course. > The identity of Yves and Jesus might be a matter of speculation or > a big secret. > Janus/Valefor anyone? > > Earl > Did that clear up where I was going? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:16:00 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Monophysite In a message dated 12/17/99 1:09:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, douglas.muir@yale.edu writes: > And then there's Monothelitism. Didn't catch on. There aren't any > Monothelites around today, are there? > Actually, the Fundamentalists and many evangelical groups are technically Monothelites. For those who are lost, Monotheletism was an attempt to reunite the Orthodox and Monophysite camps in the face of the Persians. Essentially, the doctrine (declared Heresy c.696AD) says that Jesus had a single will, rather than a will wich was both (and coequally) Divine and human. The Fundamentalist take on this is that Jesus' will was single, because everyone (and everything) has a single will. It's simply that Jesus' will was an outgrowth of his dual nature. Of course, this is hairsplitting, but that's what theologians do best. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:32:01 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Arius' teaching on Jesus' nature In a message dated 12/17/99 2:31:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, neelk@cswcasa.com writes: > I am also now sure that I have no idea what Arius actually preached; > his /Letter to Alexander of Alexandria/ seems to deny every possible > explanation of Jesus's nature. :) I'm fairly certain that he preached that Jesus, the Logos, was the Divine Creation. A single *created* being who partook of the Deity nature, denying both the coeternality and the eternal sonship of Christ. The derogatory summary is that he taught that 'Jesus was some sort of Germanic demigod,' an accusation leveled against him by at least one historian. I was in her class at the time. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:33:49 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The Holy Trinity In a message dated 12/17/99 3:49:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: > >>>It might be fun to have Eli (the Creator) and Yves *and* Jesus > all be God Himself (or the Logos, for Arians).<<< > > Yves: Father. > > Eli: Son. > > God: Holy Ghost. > > Discuss. > > -David (somehow, that just clicked) > Considering the original language, I would say: Janus: Holy Ghost. How's that for bizarre? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:37:16 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Copts and Robers In a message dated 12/17/99 5:49:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, in-sabre@annotations.com writes: > At 2:23 PM -0700 12/15/99, Tim Groth wrote: > >Oh yeah you definetly get the Rambling Rite. One question, where can one > >find the Book of Enoch? > > Most larger bookstores, or Amazon.com. > Actually, look it up on Yahoo. There's a complete translation of the Abyssinian (read: Ethiopian) version of the Book of Enoch online. IIRC, there's also commentary available on the differences between the Syriac and Abyssinian versions, online. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:36:40 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: IN> Redeemed Malakim Okay, so here I am, reading the Playtest copy of Superiors 3. Specifically, I am reading the Gabriel write up (which is worth the measly $15 a year) and I am thinking of how much fun it would be to play a redeemed Servitor of Gabriel. Variations on the Shadow theme..."Who Knows what evil (cruelty) lies in the hearts of man and celestial alike...? I do, for I once walke among the cruelest of them all. And I was good at it..." I may write him up later, when i have all the books. But the reason I am writing. Cannon states that the malakim came into being during the fall of the angels, when angels of other choirs...Changed. So, what i am wondering, is how long did it take? did the Transformation (lacking a better term) to virtues happen all at once, or over a (long or short) period of time. Because what i am thinking is how it may be possible for a Malakim to have once been a Demon. In Cannon, there is no way (short of divine intervention, natch) to change choirs. But what if an angel fell, saw what he had chosen, and then redeemed while the process of transforming angels into Malakim was still happening. Now, even as I write this, a couple things come to mind. Said Malakite would be OLD; predating the fall, however much. And it would require a trick of timing so incredible that the character would be unique. The other idea...Demons can fledge at 7 forces, and Angels fledge at 9 forces. Also, a band or choir is not determined until the point where they actually do fledge (lovely Lilim being a notable exception, of course). What if a demon fledged at 7 forces, then redeemed, before gaining more forces; he would be a 7 force reliever, right? Could he then "refledge" as a Malakim? The reasoning (if it is possible, of course) being "I Never want to go back there." Note, I am thinking this would be strictly a background / roleplaying thing": i cannot imagine any particular mechanical benefits for doing this. Maybe some insights into the demonic mindset, (much as with any other among the redeemed) but those benefits would be seriously countered by the fact that Everybody in Hell would be after him. After all, demons hate the redeemed. Deomons hate malakim. A redeemed malakim? - -Daiv ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com my mother once said that boy is stranger than a three toed barking frog - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 23:30:19 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN SJG From: Elizabeth McCoy > At 4:28 PM -0500 12/15/99, Stacy Stroud wrote: > >Hmm. The early draft of SJG IN posted to io.com (years before the game was > >finally released) had a fairly nice, female Dominique. > > Man, I'd have loved to have seen that... (I think Dominic went through > several revisions of Choir, too. I seem to recall Malakite and Cherub (!). > And I think Blandine was once a Seraph.) i've got a copy kicking around somewhere. a friend gave it to me when i first expressed an interest in IN. it had humans becoming angels - dominique used to be a medieval french peasant till she got her wings. she spent most of her time on earth, trying to fight for justice as a lawyer. khalid was he dodgy, grumpy one who seemed to be filling the role now covered by dominic. liam ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1464 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.