From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Dec 24 21:54:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02819 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:54:33 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA30806 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:54:03 -0600 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:54:03 -0600 Message-Id: <199912250354.VAA30806@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1471 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, December 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1471 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1470 IN> Beliefs in RL IN> Beliefs in RL IN> Beliefs in RL IN> Beliefs in RL IN> Beliefs in RL IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL IN> Desperate Topic Change IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives Re: IN> Beliefs in RL IN> The RL beliefs thread must die! Re: IN> Beliefs in RL RE: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) RE: IN> Re: Using Supplements Re: IN> The RL beliefs thread must die! IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine IN> Christmas IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi Re: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine IN> Michael's Proficiency Attunement and another rules question [none] IN> Balseraphs & Bananas?!? IN> Merry Christmas Re: IN> Christmas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 05:13:47 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL In a message dated 12/23/99 10:48:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, perrylloyd@hotmail.com writes: > This may have beem liam, but maybe not: > (And I'm still trying to figure out what Buddhist sect > >believes in good and evil spirits.) > > > > Hey, Jess, do you remember what Buddhist sect believes in good and evil > spirits? I don't believe its the Zen Buddhists. > > -Perry > The so-called 'great wheel' (Mahayana (sp?)) Buddhism believes in exalted and corrupt spirits who are outside the cycle of reincarnation. Boddhisatvas are the good side. I don't remember the actual term for the demonic side, because the texts I have simply refer to them as demons. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:25:44 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1470 Merry Christmas Adam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:47:39 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL >>>60% of americans actually believe in the devil? that's kinda scary<<< Polls about religious beliefs are notoriously dubious, since it's hard to pin down exactly what someone actually believes or doesn't believe in a one-line poll question. Some polls, for example, have indicated that an overwhelming majority of people believe in God (80% or 90%). Yet the question was basically phrased so that if you're not absolutely sure God doesn't exist (i.e., a firm atheist), you're counted as being a believer. Some of those polls would label ME a "believer," since being a rationalist, and not a fanatical atheist of the Madelyne Murray O'Hair variety, I won't claim that God absolutely does not exist. (Trying to prove a negative and all that...) I very much doubt that 60% of Americans actually believe in a literal Satan with horns and a pitchfork, living in Hell and cackling over damned souls. In my experience, most people who aren't regular church-goers have somewhat undefined beliefs (so do many people who are regular church-goers, for that matter). They have a vague sense that there is some kind of supreme being or a cosmic force capable of intent, and a vague notion that there might be some opposing evil force, and depending on how and when you ask them, you might elicit a response indicating that they believe in God and/or the Devil. To make this somewhat on topic, I try not to insert my own beliefs into my writing. My lack of belief _might_ have influenced the irritation I felt at seeing that the original Khalid writeup made it a rite to kill atheists, but I wasn't personally offended. I just thought it indicated an extremely bigoted view of Muslims and/or equating "atheist" with "evil, immoral, anti-God." I'll admit that being an atheist, I'm somewhat less sympathetic to the whining of pagans who, ironically enough, are more likely than Christians to bitch about how religion is represented in In Nomine. Being that I don't believe in any supernatural force, I put paganism in the same category as monotheism, and thus am less likely to listen to politically correct screeds that may sway other gamers and game writers. (For some reason, I guess partly because there are so many "pagan" gamers, some people seem to feel more of an obligation to not offend pagans than to not offend Christians or Muslims or Jews.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:57:29 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL >>>teehee. that may be true, but us brits like it when people conform to stereotype. taking the mickey out of backwards americans is a national hobby<<< Well, I've winced a few times when I was overseas and saw how some other Americans were acting. (I was on a tour in Thailand with my then-fiancee, and in our group were a pair of Swedish girls and another American. This American, there's no other way to put it, was simply dumb as a rock. He was nice enough, but he asked them if Sweden was near England, and it got worse from there. I found myself trying to convince the Swedes, when he wasn't in earshot, that most Americans really aren't THAT ignorant...) OTOH, I've seen rude tourists of all nationalities, including Brits. What does it mean to "take the mickey out of" someone, anyway? Is it some kind of anti-Disneyfication? ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:59:21 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL >>>So, as an extension, an Athiest writing for In Nomine is *not* ironic, but a Theologan writing for In Nomine would be.<<< Moriah, Elizabeth's predecessor as Line Editor, was a Catholic priest. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:05:44 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL >>>Of course, now I get to accuse you of doing what you earlier accused me of doing (because we both do it): speaking personal points of view as though they were "objective" truths somehow.<<< I guess you missed the words "in my experience." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:08:33 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL >>>(barring the beginnings of Buddhism, but not where it moved to, thank you David)<<< Buddhism as a whole has not "moved" anywhere. It has splintered into numerous sects and divergent philosophies, as all religions do, and some of them (especially the Tibetan branches) believe in supernatural beings (though even they go through complicated theological contortions to explain that these demons and gods and saints that they pray to or ward off aren't _really_ demons, gods, and saints....). However, orthodox Buddhism still does not, to this day, endorse or represent such beings. You will find many Buddhists who will tell you quite firmly that they have no belief in spirits. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:10:05 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL >>>I think its interesting that a writer who's agnostic/atheist would be drawn to writing about angels and demons. Then again, I can't imagine persuing anything seriously if I didn't believe in it.<<< I take it you can't imagine anyone writing a work of fantasy fiction, then? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:37:05 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL David Edelstein wrote: > >Pure Buddhism, for one -- while the popular Buddhist offshoots >practiced by many today include entire pantheons of gods, demons, and >the like, Buddhism in its original form included no such beings, and >in fact repudiated their existence. This is wrong. Reincarnation has been an essential part of Buddhist belief since its inception, and that pretty much mandates a belief in spirits -- the souls that are reincarnated, if nothing else! (And in most Buddhist theology, that's what demons and gods are too -- souls reincarnated to their positions, and who would reincarnate again once they use up their karma.) >Secondly, there are a number of "serious" belief systems don't include >spirits or suchlike being in their cosmologies. [...] Confucianism, for >another, includes no supernatural beings. Your larger point here is true; lots of Greeks and Romans had non-spiritual ethical philosophies, too -- eg Stoicism. What all this has to do with writing RPG supplements, I don't know. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:58:16 +0000 (Eastern) From: cybercat@corecomm.net (ErisRaven) Subject: IN> Desperate Topic Change To bring this back to a directly In Nomine perspective, I have used the plot seed that Archangel Beth put out about the 'Third Avatar' (it's on the INC pages). I ran with it fast and hard, but I sucker punched one of my players with the starring role. (S'what he gets for power-gaming in *my* campaign...) After several months of developing craziness, unexplained powers, and weird beings out of nowhere giving him grief, one of the strange new friends he'd acquired (actually a Cherub of Eli sent to keep an eye on him) gave him a copy of the analysis (edited, of course). This, of course, was shortly before he ascended. Much against his will. Hoo boy, talk about a mess. :) It would take a much longer post to explain the background of this campaign, but simply put, the idea is that certain very few, extremely rare beings have the potential to actually create true life. They can channel the spark from the Symphony that engenders a soul. In the In Nomine universe, God has it, Eli has it, Lilith has it, and now this poor sot. (Others can rearrange preexisting soul energy; that's how the archangels and demon princes can 'create' new angels or demons.) This proto-god has found himself in a very cut-throat competition arena, and no one's much feeling like showing him the ropes. Eli's given him a few pointers, but for the most part Eli thinks that the trials are important. (Breaking chicks out of their shells being bad and all that.) Now, he's finding himself the rallying point of all sorts of creatures, from outcasts and renegades wanting protection, to supernaturals of all sorts seeking a new chance. Both sides of the war want him out and gone. Third fronts are only welcomed by a side that's losing, and Hell and Heaven both are convinced they'll win. Beings with this spark are the universe's method of self-propagation, so the Symphony doesn't want him dead. Dominic's run into the same situation he faced with Michael. Not understanding the situation, and convinced that this rule-breaker (he is, explanations lengthy) should be judged, he's about to fall. This is all occuring in the larger context of the framework of the 'Final Trumpet'. Since this is a WoD crossover campaign, it's also Gehenna for the vampires, the Apocalypse for the werewolves, the onset of Winter for the fae, and even the Gathering for Immortals. It's a glorious mess. :) Oh, yes - and to make matters worse still, this new godlet has a crush on Gabriel. I'm planning on using David's seed, "Forests of the Night" in conjunction with the 'Final Trumpet' and have Magog be what finally shoves her over the edge. I don't know if any of you found that interesting or useful, but I'd been meaning to throw some of it out there, if only to let Beth and David know that I was finding wonderful source material in the things they've written. Feel free to pester me with comments and questions! Eris Corax of Chaos ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:50:37 +0000 (Eastern) From: cybercat@corecomm.net (ErisRaven) Subject: IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives > I'll admit that being an atheist, I'm > somewhat less sympathetic to the whining of pagans who, ironically > enough, are more likely than Christians to bitch about how religion is > represented in In Nomine. Being that I don't believe in any supernatural > force, I put paganism in the same category as monotheism, and thus am > less likely to listen to politically correct screeds that may sway other > gamers and game writers. (For some reason, I guess partly because there > are so many "pagan" gamers, some people seem to feel more of an > obligation to not offend pagans than to not offend Christians or Muslims > or Jews.) > > -David David, All right. I was staying out of this one, I really was. There are a great number of short-sighted people in the world. Some of them are included in every religious or atheistic group. Some of them even whine. But usually someone misrepresenting a particular Christian sect's beliefs doesn't pass into the mainstream. You see, we live in a Christian society. The media has in the past been quite adept at making pagans out to be evil. Because of the persecution pagans often experience, not many of us feel safe in defending our views in public. Therefore pagans often become oversensitive to portrayals in the media because the media shapes the public's view of reality. Every gamer out there's at least heard of gamers who have had to defend gaming against the media's ill-informed slander of the hobby. Who hasn't known someone whose well-meaning parents decided to save their child from the 'evils' of D&D? Often pagans find themselves in this position. Which becomes worse in the long run? Defending my beliefs, and being ridiculed; or *not* defending them, and having the public develop a perception about paganism that is at the best incorrect, and at the worst, painfully slanderous? Misunderstandings are rife enough on this world without having them propagate and breed hatreds. That said, I also don't think gamers or game authors feel a need not to 'offend pagans'. I've known several game authors, and those who were using pagan topics were usually more interested in revealing the accurate stuff simply *because* it's what people don't usually hear. If I'm wrong about that, rest assured that many pagans in the pagan community are quite used to inaccurate representations, and will simply work around them, or ignore them. Not every pagan who objects to a presentation does so because they're offended. I tend to do so, on the rare occasions which I do, out of a desire for clarity and accuracy. After all, wouldn't you frown on a factually-inaccurate accounting of U.S. history, or some such? Don't you think that better accuracy in the framework leads to a better game? I don't have any objections to In Nomine at all. I find it hysterical! The One has many faces, and the God of In Nomine is just one facet who has gotten too big for his deific britches. I have had a great deal of fun reconciling this game into my view of my gaming's cosmos. Then again, with the mess that is my gaming cosmos, it didn't take much squeezing. (The next post is going to be on topic, Beth, I promise.) For now, perhaps we should all agree to set this aside. David, I feel your words were ill-chosen, and I found them offensive. However, I think by now the offense has been generously enough spread around that everyone involved should move on. This list is about In Nomine, not personal religion. Eris Corax of Chaos High Priestess of the Coven of the Compass Rose cybercat@corecomm.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:31:58 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL > I've far more TV specials on people who believe in angels who've healed > relatives than on people who believe in vampires that crawl through the > cities at night. Heck, I've seen more specials on alien possession (versus demon possession) and alien healing (versus holy ghost healing) and alien visitations (versus angel visitations) than on all that angel/demon stuff. I won't put the implication that this makes it true, though, into my comments. 60% of Americans believe in angels because 60% of Americans agree with organized religion. Christianity, in particular. And this number is falling every day. > -Perry Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:42:45 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: IN> The RL beliefs thread must die! Discussing beliefs is good. Arguing over personal beliefs is bad. If ever there was a thread that needed to be externally terminated, I think this was it. This is much worse than the music thread, IMHO and should be taken to private email if not taken out back and shot. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:44:14 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL > >>>I think its interesting that a writer who's agnostic/atheist would be drawn to writing about angels and demons. Then again, I can't imagine persuing anything seriously if I didn't believe in it.<<< > > I take it you can't imagine anyone writing a work of fantasy fiction, > then? He's never seen anyone play a MUD, either. :-) > -David Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:34:24 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: RE: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) > From: Perry Lloyd > > A recent poll, IIRC, revealed that more peolpe in the United States > believed > > in possession by the Devil than believed in Haunted Houses. (something > like > > 60% versus 35% or something like that, I think it was on NPR, or Fresh > Air) > > 60% of americans actually believe in the devil? that's kinda scary > > erm, no insult to any of you lot who actually do believe in the devil, btw > > > liam > No insult taken here... I was agnostic for most of my adult life. My friends and I made fun of Christians and called them "robots" or "mindless sheep"... now I am one... five years ago I would have never believed it! I empathize with your position. It is hard for critical thinkers to accept things by faith... I couldn't believe without proof. Why should I expect others to believe in God without proof? Godly beliefs are personal. Drive on and keep writing, soldier!!!! I like this game. Best wishes, Greg Bilbruck aka ++ Holy Avenger ++ on WebRPG Online ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:48:25 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: RE: IN> Re: Using Supplements > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Azrael > > > So, as an extension, an Athiest writing for In Nomine is > *not* ironic, but > > a > > > Theologan writing for In Nomine would be. > > > > i reckon it'd only be ironic if In Nomine was actually written > by an angel > > > > or maybe a pagan god > > Here Here or Amen, Brother > > Or Whatever else You wish me to say in agreement > > Azrael > Please do not clutter our inboxes with fanboy responses. If everybody responded with "yay!" or "here here" or "you go, girl!" to the ideas that they agreed with, we'd all unsubscribe the list. Thanks, Greg Merry Christmas! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:22:49 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> The RL beliefs thread must die! At 9:42 AM -0800 12/24/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Discussing beliefs is good. Arguing over personal beliefs is bad. I agree here. . . And note, that AFIAK, the list admin are on vacation at the moment. Ergo, behave folks. (I have no power to 'spank' people, just giving you all fair warning that keeping this up will get the wrath of the admin so down upon some of you. Play nice, so that when they get back, they don't have to stress out because of it.) Now, with that said. . . Let's drag this back into In Nomine terms. Paganism, Witchcraft: The work of ethereals. . . Or Nybbas working closely with Kronos to make sorcery 'cool'? Religion: Ultimately serves Destiny. . . Or is it a tool of Fate? Balseraphs, Superiors and Bananas: Like, why did everyone ignore this ultimately silly post? Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:56:39 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine Here's a cheery Christmas gift for the list. ;) GENUBATH Demon Prince of Rapine "The world is spread before you. Take it." Genubath was a singularly nasty piece of work. The first of the "Young Princes" (as the Princes who were never angels are called in Hell), Genubath took a truly unholy delight in his Word. His elevation to Princedom, occurring not long after the demons escaped their infernal prison and began intervening on the corporeal plane, forcibly gave Heaven a new understanding of their Fallen brethren. Previously, there had been some (very quiet) sympathy among the Host for the rebels. All agreed that Lucifer had been wrong to rebel, but some angels admitted that the former Archangel of Light had had a point. It was commonly assumed that the Fallen, while now living in a state of gracelessness, were still angels. They had been cast down for the sin of Pride, but even so, they couldn't have abandoned their essentially selfness natures . . . could they? The Prince of Rapine quickly silenced these sympathizers. He was selfish. He was vicious and cruel. Like most Shedim, he reveled in being a demon. He had never known the light of Heaven or the glory of God, and he was EVIL. The fact that he wasn't, technically, one of the Fallen made no difference; he was of the same substance as them, and he demonstrated with glee what diabolicals were capable of. Genubath's servants didn't have to teach mankind how to use violence to get what one wants -- humans figured that out as soon as they were evolved enough to wrap their fingers around a rock. But demons of Rapine taught humans how to enjoy taking by force. Previously, many celestials saw humans as nasty, brutal animals capable of raping and killing each other out of spite and envy. Now, they realized that humans were capable of raping and killing each other just for the sheer pleasure of it. As Genubath is credited with hardening the Host against Hell, he is also credited with increasing the frequency with which angels joined the Horde, post-Fall. Genubath's Word was broader but shallower than that of his successor, Valefor. Rapine includes rape, theft, destruction, and exploitation -- any act of forcing one's will upon an unwilling victim. Rapine is taking what you want because you can, and enjoying it a little more because you're taking it from someone else. Genubath epitomized "might makes right," and encouraged his Servitors to run amok and enjoy themselves as much as they could possibly get away with . . . and the more they could make others suffer while doing so, the better. Rapine was one of the most intrinsically selfish, utterly diabolical Words that has ever been given to a Prince, as it contains absolutely no positive connotations or applications. Armies, particularly invading barbarian hordes, provided many of Genubath's Tethers and fueled his Word most noticeably, but individual day-to-day acts of rapine probably had a greater net effect. One of Genubath's failings may have been that he paid more attention to Assyrians, Huns, Goths, and Saxons than he did to subtler social developments -- growing civilizations like Rome and China might not have engaged in quite such dramatic acts of rapine, but their stability, underpinned by an intrinsic sense of entitlement to expand at others' expense, did more to ensure that rapine would become commonplace in human society. Genubath was a militant Prince who chafed under the increasing restrictions Asmodeus placed on Earthly disturbances. He wanted to treat the Symphony as his personal playground, and might have been an even more powerful Prince had he not spent so much time on Earth simply enjoying himself, instead of spending more time in Hell, attending to politics. Even so, he was one of the major Superiors of his day, most often opposing Novalis. While Novalis demanded that her Servitors attempt kindness first even with demons of Rapine, in private she admitted that Genubath was one of the few demons she would not object to seeing exterminated. In 793 A.D., a newcomer named Valefor appeared before Lucifer, with a book stolen from Yves' library. The Lightbringer was sufficiently impressed to offer the powerful Calabite his choice of Words, and Valefor asked for Theft. Lucifer pointed out that this Word would encroach upon that of the reigning Prince of Rapine, who probably would not be inclined to share. Valefor asked for permission to challenge Genubath for his Word; Lucifer regretfully consented. Regretfully because he was sure Genubath would make the promising upstart squeal like a pig before being squashed like a bug. It was one of the few times the Lightbringer has miscalculated. No one but (perhaps) Lucifer knows exactly how Valefor replaced Genubath, but in the year 793 A.D., Lucifer announced the new Prince of Theft would be taking over Genubath's Principality. Most former demons of Rapine realigned themselves with the new Prince; some sought refuge with other Princes, or went Renegade. Valefor stripped most of Genubath's former Servitors of their Rapine attunements and Distinctions - not unprecedented when a new Prince accepts large numbers of Servitors from another Prince and wants to make sure they are beholden to him and him alone. (Not to mention one would expect the Prince of Theft to exact a price for entering his service.) However, it's rumored that Valefor did let a few former demons of Rapine keep their attunements, and there may be some other former Servitors of Genubath in service to other Princes, with their old Rapine attunements intact. The description below is useful both for creating demons who once served Genubath, and for a historical or alternate campaign in which Genubath is still active. DISSONANCE It is dissonant for Servitors of Rapine to barter for anything they can take. They don't buy when they can steal, they don't persuade when they can coerce, they don't seduce when they can rape. They can negotiate only if they reasonably believe that their objective isn't attainable by force. It is also dissonant for a demon of Rapine to refrain from taking something he wants, if he thinks he can. This dissonance may be erased if the demon bides his time and takes the object of his desire at a later date. BAND ATTUNEMENTS Balseraphs (Restricted) Balseraphs of Rapine excel at convincing others not to interfere - if you're not the victim, you don't want to get involved, right? They can apply their resonance to cause anyone who fails to resist to ignore the Balseraph's actions, as long as he's not harming them. (If the Balseraph is harming someone's friends or loved ones, a bonus to the Will roll to resist is appropriate.) Djinn (Restricted) Anyone a Djinn of Rapine attunes to must make a Will roll to oppose anything the demon does - including harming the attuned. If the victim fails to resist, the Djinn will not suffer dissonance for hurting him! (Killing his attuned will always generate dissonance, though.) If the victim does resist with a check digit of 6, however, he will break the attunement and inflict a point of dissonance on the Djinn. Calabim (Restricted) Genubath's Calabim inflict nasty, permanent wounds; anyone they injure with their resonance will not heal normally; only supernatural healing (or, at the GM's option, advanced medical care) will work. This applies to celestial damage also! Habbalah (Restricted) Genubath's Habbalah can inflict the emotional effect of Rapaciousness on people. Anyone who fails to resist will, for a number of hours equal to the check digit, behave like a demon of Rapine, taking whatever he wants if he thinks he can get away with it, ignoring any moral compunctions that would normally restrain him. Lilim (Restricted) With a Perception roll, Lilim of Rapine can choose see what is precious to the subject, instead of what he needs. The check digit indicates how precious the object she discovers is. A CD of 1 might mean she learns his favorite piece of clothing; a CD of 6 tells the Lilim what is the most precious thing in the world to that person. Shedim (Restricted) Shedim of Rapine can rape their hosts for Essence. While possessing someone, the Shedim has access to his host's Essence. He may not transfer the Essence directly to himself, but he can spend his host's Essence instead of his own on any action. The demon must win a Contest of Wills with the host each time he wants to do this; if the host should win (or the Shedite fails his Will roll), the Shedite can't attempt to use his host's Essence for a number of hours equal to the CD of the host's Will roll (or of the Shedite's failed roll). Impudites (Restricted) Genubath's Takers can't charm people as other Impudites can. However, they don't need to to steal Essence, and they're better at it; do not subtract the victim's Ethereal and Celestial Forces from an Impudite of Rapine's roll. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS Pillage The demon can plunder people of Essence by plundering their bodies or possessions. Rape, theft, and destruction of property in the presence of someone who cares about what the demon is taking forces the victim to make a Will roll, or lose a point of Essence, which goes to the demon. (If the victim has no Essence, the demon gets none.) The demon can only get 1 point of Essence for each act of pillage -- but he can pillage the same person repeatedly. Reaver This attunement effectively functions as if the demon had a perfect Role to cover his pillaging and raping. He will not create a disturbance with damage or destruction upon corporeal objects (and people). Spending Essence or using supernatural powers to inflict damage will make a disturbance normally, however. DISTINCTIONS Knight of Rapine The demon becomes accustomed to making people submit to him. Subtract the Knight's Celestial Forces from any Will rolls to resist his resonance. Captain of Despoilers Anything the demon takes will be tainted forevermore, in an indefinable but perceptible manner. Whatever the demon has despoiled will be undesirable to others. Possessions will feel "cursed," and people will carry a lingering aura of violation that makes others shy away. Being exposed to the light of Heaven (either in a divine Tether, or by ascension to Heaven), the direct intervention of an Archangel, or a Divine Intervention (at the GM's option) is the only thing that will make this taint go away. Baron of Ravagers As per Knight, except the penalty also applies to resistance vs. any attunements or Songs. RITES The rites below are cumulative; raping and killing a woman in front of her children would be worth 3 Essence. * Rape someone * Take someone's most prized possession * Destroy something precious to someone * Any of the above, in the presence of the victim (or for a rape, in the presence of the victim's loved ones) (+1 Essence) RELATIONS When Genubath was active, he was in Hell's militant camp. Most other Princes either approved of his work, or else avoided him. Only Andrealphus was actively opposed to the Prince of Rapine . . . not because the Prince of Lust disapproves of rape (he doesn't), but because Genubath's conception and use of rape was entirely different from and inimical to Andrealphus'. ALLIED: Baal (Baal and Belial were allied to Genubath) ASSOCIATED: Belial (Beleth was associated with Genubath) HOSTILE: Asmodeus, Meserach (the former Prince of Sloth) (Andrealphus was hostile to Genubath) INVOCATION MODIFIERS +1 A rape +2 A gang-rape or mass rapes +3 A church being desecrated +4 A prison or concentration camp where the prisoners are routinely violated +5 A city being pillaged +6 An army on a rampage ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:02:27 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: IN> Christmas Just writing to wish everyone a merry christmas. I know it's off topic for everything (well, barring discusions on christianity), but hey, It's not harming anyone, and it's only this once... Anyway, hope you have a great time, and get both what you need and what you want (I was going to write what you deserve, but I realised that can be interpreted oh so many ways) Kris Yes, I know that for most of you it's not christmas yet, but dammit, I'm not going to wait around for the 15 hour time difference to come through. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:05:21 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi Question for all you GMs: which bands/choirs/Servitors do you find most difficult to run, or to have active around your PCs? We all know that Malakim can be difficult, because of their oaths, and Seraphim, because they can't lie. But I've found that PC Seraphim, when part of a larger group, can usually step back and allow the others to do the lying for them. Servitors of Revelations, OTOH, can create some real problems -- their inability to conceal things, or to participate in concealment, has tangled up the plans of more than one PC party. Similarly, servitors of Flowers, Wind and Theft can cause problems for PCs that are working with them. And Servitors of War, while not troublesome exactly, tend to behave in a manner not perhaps consistent with Michael's original intent: because they gain dissonance if they retreat from battle, they tend to get reeeeal choosy about picking their fights. IMC I explain that this was Michael's intent -- that he wanted thoughtful tacticians, not foolish glory-munchkins, and set his dissonance conditions accordingly - -- but I wonder if this is really the case... Anyhow. Who out there has found unexpected problems in dealing with the dissonance conditions (or personalities) of a particular group of angels or demons? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:31:31 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi I disallow Malakim as PCs for a couple of reasons: 1) the Oaths...I run a _very_ low contrast games, and the PCs work with the other side a lot, 2) I make Trauma a big thing, and taking that away would diminish the effect of when I kill a Vessel, 3) so far the Malakim have been strictly NPCs that show up and do some bad ass stuff...they've seen some MiBs, some armor-wearing-fiery-sword-swinging-death-dealing-angels...the Malakim have been a last-resort use. I also disallow Servitors of Wind and Theft (tired of trying to fudge the 3 day rule) and soon I'll stop allowing Shedim, at least until I get a player who can _think_ like one...the two to try them don't think subtle evil...they usually ride a host for 3 or 4 days at the _most_. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 06:32:59 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine At 05:56 PM 12/24/1999 -0800, you wrote: >Here's a cheery Christmas gift for the list. ;) >DISSONANCE > > It is also dissonant for a demon of Rapine to refrain from >taking something he wants, if he thinks he can. This dissonance may be >erased if the demon bides his time and takes the object of his desire at >a later date. This seems set up to give a servant of Rapine infinite dissonance. Since servants of Rapine -want- everything, wouldn't they start racking up dissonance every time they passed up the chance to take -ANYTHING-? Redneck Kris Overstreet, long may he wave.... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Personal homepage http://www.wlponline.com/ - Business webpage - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GO d-(++) s+:+ a- C++>$ U@ P?>++ L E? W++$ N+++ o? k- w O? M>+ V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP- t---(OS++) 5++ X-- R+(+++) tv- b+++ DI++ D- G e h+ r- y+ - -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:38:49 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: IN> Michael's Proficiency Attunement and another rules question Michael's Proficiency attunement "gives a special expertise with one type of weapon (including styles of unarmed combat)" One angel IMC asked if Michael could award his proficiency attunement more than once... in other words, can Michael grant a servitor proficiency in one type of weapon and then grant that same servitor proficiency in another type in addition? Observation: My take on this was that if Michael can teach a servitor how to be effective with any combat style, Big Mike should be able to train him in another style as well. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that Michael *could* award this proficiency. Question: Can this be a game breaking attunement? My answer to the player was that I would check in with my In Nomine sources before I made a final ruling. Do any of you have experience with this? Some questions about the Proficiency attunement: Observation: "including styles of unarmed combat" (text take from Proficiency attunement) must mean the 'style' of Fighting chosen (IN, p.75: "crushing blows of a boxer or cunning grips of an Oriental master"). Question: Does this apply to the Celestial Fighting skill as well as Corporeal Fighting skill? Observation: "gives a special expertise with one type of weapon" Question: Does this imply that proficiency is gained in broad weapon categories (large weapon, small weapon, ranged weapon, etc.)... or does it imply narrower categories (axes, swords, small blades, handguns, bows, shotguns and rifles, machine guns, etc.)? Related question: Question: Must a Celestial buy both Fighting skills (Celestial and Corporeal), or is the Fighting skill proficiency used in both planes of existence (with strength being used as the stat modifier on the corporeal plane and will being used in the celestial)? Thanks, Greg Merry Christmas! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 22:02:16 -0500 From: nukenin@concentric.net Subject: [none] >> well, even Dominic can't argue with that. >well, that was supposedly what gabriel was doing, and dominic managed to argue with her. mind you, she is a nutjob think that happenned before she snapped... Grimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:15:13 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Balseraphs & Bananas?!? Yes, For those of you 'w h o' don't know what I'm talking about, here: http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine/humor/bal-banana.html (Since this already was posted once, I thought it would be far kinder to just .html'ize it for future reference.) (Bleah, 'w h o' is another evil vile majordomo command. Appologies if anyone get's this twice.) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Technomancer, Six of Nine. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 84 05:45:35 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Merry Christmas Merry Christmas and A Happy New Year, From Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:54:32 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas Same here, Merry Christmas everybody! Although I do wonder what the various Superiors would think about Christmas(barring Dominic and Laurence we know what they think) I really liked the section of the GMG that dealt with Religion(that and the whole dang book). So it's got me wondering just what the Superiors would do to celebrate Christmas.... Archangels: Blandine: Who do you think spreads those "dreams of sugerplums" and the like? David: ?? Dominic: Spends it snooping around trying to figure out if this was when Jesus was REALLY born..... Eli: He throws one heck of a party....He's glad Dominic is otherwise engaged Gabriel: ? Janus: Absolutly loves all the presents he gets....or "finds" Jean: It's just another work day to him...inventions to be made...angels to keep an eye on.... Jordi: Christmas? What's that? (that or he get's PO'd about all the animals given to kids as presents that end up in shelters after the cute factor wears off) Laurence: Spends it at Midnight Mass in Vatican City, then makes a big list of whose been naughty this year...... Marc: (See Jean...although he does love the profit margins that rise up around the holidays...and he hands out Christmas bonuses) Michael: Polishs up his battle-axe and goes out to find who sent him a copy of (i dunno...something that'd really annoy Michael) Novalis: Goes around spreading cheer....(in other words, the same as every other day) Yves: ? Demon Princes: Andre: Throws a party...invites lots of pretty people...then...well use your imagination Asmodeus: Just another day to hunt Renegades... Baal: Lodes up "Gun" and goes out to find whoever sent him a cute fluffy teddy bear with a peace sign on it.... Beleth: Goes out spreading wonderful "dreams" about Santa Claus being a serial killer....and reindeer getting hit by semi's Belial: Really loves Yule logs......and faulty christmas lights... Haagenti: Loves all the overeating around the holidays....and really loves all the food he gets as presents Kobal: Hee hee...ha ha...I slay me...(loves giving out gifts...and watching south park christmas specials) Kronos: ? Malphas: Loves buying all of the hottest presents....then watching mayhem ensue as parents try and find one for their kids.... Saminga: Really likes the icy roads....poision eggnog....presents that explode... Valefor:? Lilith: You just better make sure YOU get her a really nice present.... Ben Chism (they probably suck but what the hey.. Merry Christmas everybody, and Happy Holidays) >Just writing to wish everyone a merry christmas. I know it's off topic >for everything (well, barring discusions on christianity), but hey, It's >not harming anyone, and it's only this once... ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1471 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.