From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Dec 25 15:20:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02215 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 15:20:02 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA21768 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 15:19:20 -0600 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 15:19:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199912252119.PAA21768@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1472 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, December 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1472 In this digest: Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements Re: IN> Christmas Re: IN> Christmas IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine IN> The Unholy Ghost? Re: IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives Re: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine Re: IN> The Unholy Ghost? IN> Betharan & Tebah - 'Partners & Pawns' Re: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) RE: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Re: IN> Michael's Proficiency Attunement and another rules question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 23:02:59 EST From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Christmas Just to bring this to an In-Nomine perspective I came back from the Christmas service at church and the pastor had a great line in his sermon, "Tonight the membrane between Earth and Heaven is so thin you practicly see through it.' Since (as I understand it) divine religions send essence to Heaven, to the higher heavens in specific the flow of essence on Christmas must be incredibly high (largest turn out in most churches, contious services, lots of traditions and so on). This flow, from a good deal of the planet may well generate a sort of wide spread light of heaven throughout the world turning most of the planet into a tether into the higher heavens for a little while. Basicly during major religous events the celestial plane and corporeal plane come close to uniting. Maybe this is what Yves wanted at first with his promotion of religion, until he realized that if humanity was selfish Hell could harness this and drag the earth into the pit. Maybe when Kronos says the world is sliding into the Pit he's literal, maybe when the Destiny or Fate of humanity plays out the corporeal plain will actually fuse with a celestial plane. Imagine the trouble of the Other side if there enemy has one big tether and there small ones are slipping away. Anyway I've earned my essence, I'm going to go now and look forward to my copy of the GMG waiting for me all wrapped up nice under the tree right now. Its so tempting to open it early, but oh well. Timothy, Angel of Rambling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:08:20 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas >Gabriel: ? Gabriel takes this time of year to glance at the occasional cross her servitors leave near her volcano, and wonder why she feels the way she does when she sees the man on it. She casts her mind back, almost two thousand years, and remembers. She screams gouts of flame, screams until her throat is raw, and ignites everything around her -- including the crosses -- until Yves arrives to calm her down. >Valefor:? Who do you think the original grinch was? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 00:10:23 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine On Fri, 24 Dec 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > Here's a cheery Christmas gift for the list. ;) Heh. I like this one quite a bit, actually. Good job. > GENUBATH > Demon Prince of Rapine > "The world is spread before you. Take it." > > Genubath was a singularly nasty piece of work. The first of the "Young > Princes" (as the Princes who were never angels are called in Hell), > Genubath took a truly unholy delight in his Word. His elevation to > Princedom, occurring not long after the demons escaped their infernal > prison and began intervening on the corporeal plane, forcibly gave > Heaven a new understanding of their Fallen brethren. Previously, there > had been some (very quiet) sympathy among the Host for the rebels. All > agreed that Lucifer had been wrong to rebel, but some angels admitted > that the former Archangel of Light had had a point. It was commonly > assumed that the Fallen, while now living in a state of gracelessness, > were still angels. They had been cast down for the sin of Pride, > but even so, they couldn't have abandoned their essentially selfness > natures . . . could they? My only very minor quibble with this excellent gloss on canon history is that I think it would have had more punch if the first obviously "bad" Prince had _not_ been Hellborn. I think Beleth or Belial would have done just as well in terms of disuillusioning the Host. > Genubath's servants didn't have to teach mankind how to use violence to > get what one wants -- humans figured that out as soon as they were > evolved enough to wrap their fingers around a rock. Good point there. > ut demons of Rapine > taught humans how to enjoy taking by force. Previously, many > celestials saw humans as nasty, brutal animals capable of raping and > killing each other out of spite and envy. Now, they realized that humans > were capable of raping and killing each other just for the sheer > pleasure of it. As Genubath is credited with hardening the Host against > Hell, he is also credited with increasing the frequency with which > angels joined the Horde, post-Fall. Harry Turtledove's "Videssos" fantasy series includes as its major villain an immortal sorceror who *used* to be the greatest white wizard of his era. But he stood among the smoldering ruins of a beautiful city that had been sacked by barbarians, and was transfigured by the realization that violenc il te and evil will atriumph in the end... Easy to imagine an angel standing amidst the rubble of a Roman city and going the same way. > Genubath's Word was broader but shallower than that of his successor, > Valefor. Rapine includes rape, theft, destruction, and exploitation -- > any act of forcing one's will upon an unwilling victim. Rapine is taking > what you want because you can, and enjoying it a little more because > you're taking it from someone else. Genubath epitomized "might > makes right," and encouraged his Servitors to run amok and enjoy > themselves as much as they could possibly get away with . . . and the > more they could make others suffer while doing so, the better. Rapine > was one of the most intrinsically selfish, utterly diabolical Words that > has ever been given to a Prince, as it contains absolutely no > positive connotations or applications. Well, very few. Rapine might be acceptable if used against someone who deserved it. But, yeah, it's down there with the Words of Rape or Torture: you have to work a bit to think of positive applications. > Armies, particularly invading barbarian hordes, provided many of > Genubath's Tethers and fueled his Word most noticeably, but individual > day-to-day acts of rapine probably had a greater net effect. One of > Genubath's failings may have been that he paid more attention to > Assyrians, Huns, Goths, and Saxons than he did to subtler social > developments -- growing civilizations like Rome and China might not have > engaged in quite such dramatic acts of rapine, but their stability, > underpinned by an intrinsic sense of entitlement to expand at others' > expense, did more to ensure that rapine would become commonplace in > human society. ...so there might be a rapine-tether or two still out there? What was the most traumatic act of rapine before 793 AD? Sack of Rome? Something by the Huns or Assyrians? > In 793 A.D., a newcomer named Valefor appeared before Lucifer, with a > book stolen from Yves' library. The Lightbringer was sufficiently > impressed to offer the powerful Calabite his choice of Words, and > Valefor asked for Theft. Lucifer pointed out that this Word would > encroach upon that of the reigning Prince of Rapine, who probably would > not be inclined to share. Valefor asked for permission to challenge > Genubath for his Word; Lucifer regretfully consented. Regretfully > because he was sure Genubath would make the promising upstart squeal > like a pig before being squashed like a bug. > > It was one of the few times the Lightbringer has miscalculated. No one > but (perhaps) Lucifer knows exactly how Valefor replaced Genubath, but > in the year 793 A.D., Lucifer announced the new Prince of Theft would be > taking over Genubath's Principality. Someone remind me what canon says about this bad boy. Is he definitely dead? Or, like Gebbeleth and Magog, might he still be out there in some form? I could see Valefor getting a kick out of stealing his rival's Word, Principality, powers, and memories... but letting him live, in some imprisoned or drastically weakened form. Most former demons of Rapine > realigned themselves with the new Prince; some sought refuge with other > Princes, or went Renegade. Valefor stripped most of Genubath's former > Servitors of their Rapine attunements and Distinctions - not > unprecedented when a new Prince accepts large numbers of Servitors from > another Prince and wants to make sure they are beholden to him > and him alone. (Not to mention one would expect the Prince of Theft to > exact a price for entering his service.) However, it's rumored that > Valefor did let a few former demons of Rapine keep their attunements, > and there may be some other former Servitors of Genubath in service to > other Princes, with their old Rapine attunements intact. And not all would have gone to Valefor, of course. > The description below is useful both for creating demons who once served > Genubath, and for a historical or alternate campaign in which Genubath > is still active. > > DISSONANCE > > It is dissonant for Servitors of Rapine to barter for anything they can > take. They don't buy when they can steal, they don't persuade when they > can coerce, they don't seduce when they can rape. They can negotiate > only if they reasonably believe that their objective isn't attainable by > force. It is also dissonant for a demon of Rapine to refrain from > taking something he wants, if he thinks he can. This dissonance may be > erased if the demon bides his time and takes the object of his desire at > a later date. Tough but consistent. Note that Genubath's Word overlaps a bit with Magog's... when did Magog fall? > BAND ATTUNEMENTS [snippage] Like the Habbalah... basically turning people into sociopaths for a little while, ugly but handy. I misdoubt me about the Lilim, though. Surely they'd have trouble reconciling their natures with service to this Word? A bad bargain is one thing, taking by force another. The Shed resonance is very powerful. The Impudite, not... giving up the charm is giving up too much. IMC Impudites use their charm much more than their essence-draining shtick. > SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS > > Pillage > The demon can plunder people of Essence by plundering their bodies or > possessions. Rape, theft, and destruction of property in the presence of > someone who cares about what the demon is taking forces the victim to > make a Will roll, or lose a point of Essence, which goes to the demon. > (If the victim has no Essence, the demon gets none.) The demon can only > get 1 point of Essence for each act of pillage -- but he can pillage the > same person repeatedly. Bit too close to their Rite though, ennit? > Reaver > This attunement effectively functions as if the demon had a perfect > Role to cover his pillaging and raping. He will not create a disturbance > with damage or destruction upon corporeal objects (and people). Spending > Essence or using supernatural powers to inflict damage will make a > disturbance normally, however. Neat. Makes sense that something like this would exist, and this is the perfect Prince to grant it. > DISTINCTIONS > > Knight of Rapine > The demon becomes accustomed to making people submit to him. Subtract > the Knight's Celestial Forces from any Will rolls to resist his > resonance. > > Captain of Despoilers > Anything the demon takes will be tainted forevermore, in an indefinable > but perceptible manner. Whatever the demon has despoiled will be > undesirable to others. Possessions will feel "cursed," and people will > carry a lingering aura of violation that makes others shy away. Being > exposed to the light of Heaven (either in a divine Tether, or by > ascension to Heaven), the direct intervention of an Archangel, or a > Divine Intervention (at the GM's option) is the only thing that will > make this taint go away. Eeew, this guy's reeeally baaad... I like it. > RITES > The rites below are cumulative; raping and killing a woman in > front of her children would be worth 3 Essence. Eeew again... hmm, I think I may have an NPC in mind. > * Rape someone > RELATIONS > When Genubath was active, he was in Hell's militant camp. Most other > Princes either approved of his work, or else avoided him. Only > Andrealphus was actively opposed to the Prince of Rapine . . . not > because the Prince of Lust disapproves of rape (he doesn't), but because > Genubath's conception and use of rape was entirely different Hmm. Can of worms here... Still, overall an excellent writeup. Is there any way to canonize these? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 23:48:01 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements > > Here Here or Amen, Brother > > > > Or Whatever else You wish me to say in agreement > > > > Azrael > > > > Please do not clutter our inboxes with fanboy responses. If everybody > responded with "yay!" or "here here" or "you go, girl!" to the ideas that > they agreed with, we'd all unsubscribe the list. > Thanks, > Greg I'm really less inclined to unsub because of a "fanboy" response then to people slapping each other over a writers RW religion or the fact that someone actually buys products for a game that everyone says that they enjoy. David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 01:19:47 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Christmas Personally, I think Christmas is run by the demons. Today's Santa created by Nybbas and Mammon. And you know Kobal has to love the fact that this so-called Christian holiday is composed of largely pagan rituals. Evergreen tree, mistletoe, etc. Reverend Brian PS Ask any 10 kids who they think of when they think of Christmas. What do you want to bet they don't say Jesus? PPS Merry Christmas, Everybody! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 84 16:22:52 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Christmas You beat me to it! How About: David: David Likes Christmas, y'know togetherness an' all that. Dom'n'Larry : Also chuck a fit about everyone forgeting the true meaning of Christmas and succumbing to the commercializations etc... Jean: Or sends everyone a Merry Christmas email (Hey! I did that too) and then continues on his work... Jordi: A fat man, in a red suit and furs, dragged around the WHOLE WORLD by animals...I think not Michael: I really like the idea of all the War guys trying to understand Christmas, "Yes I appreciate the thought Rufiel, but a Demon's still beating heart?" Yves: The love and the kindness shown on Christmas brings everyone closer to their Destinies...*grin enigmatically* Christopher: Ah, to see the Children's smiling faces, their happy grins, their suprise when they awaken on Christmas Mornings..*sigh* Demon Princes: Kronos: The greed, dismay and depression that is even more prevenlent during the "Silly Season" brings the world ever closer to the dark pit of its Fate.... Mammon: Greed and Christmas....need I say more Nybass: Chirstmas Specials, RATINGS RATINGS RATINGS!!!!! Vapula: A coffee mug with "Caution: Biological Hazard" on the side, really you shouldn't have, did we ever get that Fully Automated Donkey Budder Working? No, Hmmmmmm...Back to the drawing board Azrael "Goodbye 'til next year, and the new Media Millineum" ÿ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 02:53:52 -0600 From: "Matt W." Subject: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) >My lack of belief _might_ have influenced the irritation I >felt at seeing that the original Khalid writeup made it a rite to kill >atheists, but I wasn't personally offended. Here here, brother. I severely disliked the entire set of attunements and so forth for Khalid. He was too biased to be an Archangel of any sort, and the way he was written was horrible. The Angels of Faith should be operating throughout the world, for faith exists in the hearts of everyone from Khalid's devout Muslims to the Catholic minister to the average joe who just knows there is a God somewhere. Instead, they are strictly working in the Muslim religion, since that is the only religion with true faith. In fact, it's all right to kill anyone who isn't Muslim, since they obviously are heathens who must be destroyed. Come on. Even Laurence and Dominic are not so biased. They merely mention their support of the Catholic faith, but none of their attunements specifically mentioned any religion. To me, Archangels are the concious manifestations of concepts, so the Archangel of Faith should perhaps favor slightly Islam, but should not practically ignore the Faith which exists elsewhere. And having Khalid be an Elohite was a mistake, faith is defined as being an irrational or unfounded belief, something downright dissonant for an Elohite. First thing I did when I saw Khalid's write-up was swear to completely rewrite him, perhaps as a Seraph or Malakite. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 84 06:19:52 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) Of course faith is just another word for belief (Unless my dictionary/thesaurus is wrong). I am an athiest, I belive there is no God, therefore I have faith that there is no God. Khalid should be able to stomach an athiest. Bye Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 01:31:35 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi >From: Douglas Muir > >Question for all you GMs: which bands/choirs/Servitors do you find most >difficult to run, or to have active around your PCs? > Shedim, because as the GM, you always have to stop and think about precisely where the NPC is and what it's doing. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:17:44 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi Douglas Muir wrote: > >Question for all you GMs: which bands/choirs/Servitors do you >find most difficult to run, or to have active around your PCs? I find Seraphim to be relatively easy to have as PCs. They have a huge advantage, but their difficulty in pretending to be human more than makes up for it. The worst as PCs, oddly enough, are Mercurians. When I was running my game, a couple of times I just had to pull the NPC's character sheet out my notebook and hand it to the player of the Mercurian to read. As NPCs, Shedim are definitely the hardest, if you want closure to an adventure. They just have amazing abilities at escape, so tracking and finishing them off is really hard. Worse, when you do catch up with them, they are combat monsters to boot. They don't need to spend points on a Vessel, *and* they can recover instantly from physical wounds by swapping bodies. Though as balance there's nothing quite as tense and exciting as having a Shedite show up and whisper sedition from the lips of an old friend. It's almost as exciting as a courtroom scenes. I have yet to run a game with infernal PCs. None of their resonances seem to be hosing in the way that angelic resonances are. (The Habbalah might be an exception, but that's about it....) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:17:44 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Most troublesome bands/choirs/servitorservi Douglas Muir wrote: > >Question for all you GMs: which bands/choirs/Servitors do you >find most difficult to run, or to have active around your PCs? I find Seraphim to be relatively easy to have as PCs. They have a huge advantage, but their difficulty in pretending to be human more than makes up for it. The worst as PCs, oddly enough, are Mercurians. When I was running my game, a couple of times I just had to pull the NPC's character sheet out my notebook and hand it to the player of the Mercurian to read. As NPCs, Shedim are definitely the hardest, if you want closure to an adventure. They just have amazing abilities at escape, so tracking and finishing them off is really hard. Worse, when you do catch up with them, they are combat monsters to boot. They don't need to spend points on a Vessel, *and* they can recover instantly from physical wounds by swapping bodies. Though as balance there's nothing quite as tense and exciting as having a Shedite show up and whisper sedition from the lips of an old friend. It's almost as exciting as a courtroom scenes. I have yet to run a game with infernal PCs. None of their resonances seem to be hosing in the way that angelic resonances are. (The Habbalah might be an exception, but that's about it....) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 23:57:04 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL > I think its interesting that a writer who's agnostic/atheist would be drawn > to writing about angels and demons. Then again, I can't imagine persuing > anything seriously if I didn't believe in it. Really? How do you GM, then? Storytelling is storytelling - whether in print or in words. Along the same lines - I'm a fond student of comparative religions. That doesn't mean that I believe every single religion I study - merely that I am fascinated by the various belief systems (and lack thereof) humans have invented and the social implications created by them. J. Michael Stryzinski (creator of Babylon 5) is an avowed atheist, and yet managed marvelous portrayals of other belief systems in B5. And yet if anyone followed the Compuserve B5 forum, the whole issue of "how can you write this and be an atheist" came up over and over again - to the point where Joe was so sick of it I think he was ready to throttle the next person who brought it up. >And, come to think of it, I bet >having serious religious/emotional beliefs about angels and demons in RL >would probably act as a barrier to writing about something different, but >purporting to be a version, of your own beliefs. I know several people who would think my house needed to be exorcized simply for seeing the In Nomine rule books. I think that would constitute a barrier... Now then. This is my one and only post on this topic. I've deleted the remainder of the responses out of my mailbox. Could we please get back on topic? Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:38:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) On Thu, 1 Mar 1984, Azrael wrote: > Of course faith is just another word for belief (Unless my > dictionary/thesaurus is wrong). I am an athiest, I belive there is no > God, therefore I have faith that there is no God. Khalid should be able > to stomach an athiest. Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to start a flame war here... In theological definitions, faith is a belief in things which are true. It is also a belief in true things which is strong enough to lead an individual to take correct actions. Both components are required in order for belief to be faith. I believe that there is also a hierarchy of faith - - the more correct your belief is, and the more it motivates your actions, the stronger your faith. In In Nomine, athiesm is wrong (unless you are playing a fairly divergant game). The belief is in untrue things (because there is a God), and so a belief in athiesm is not faith. Other religions in In Nomine are more or less correct, meaning that the true believers of those religions have more or less faith (depending on what the specific beliefs are and how obedient the faithful are to those beliefs). Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:29:06 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives >>>David, I feel your words were ill-chosen, and I found them offensive.<<< Tough. I didn't misrepresent pagans, nor did I insult them. I do find it ironic that you're going on about how pagans are commonly misrepresented or insulted in the media, when Christians tend (with some justification, IMO) to feel the same way. And on this very list, we've had more than one instance of someone saying something along the lines of "Christians are all ignorant sheep/oppressive fundamentalist Nazis/narrow-minded jerks/etc. and of course they wouldn't like In Nomine." And the only ones who spoke up to protest such statements were the Christians on the list. (Or occasionally me, but usually I'd wait for the Christians to do it, since they can defend themselves better than I can.) I don't recall anyone ever posting something like "Pagans are all muddle-headed New Age dweebs" (much less "Pagans worship the devil"), and if someone did, I have no doubt the list would explode into a flamewar of unprecedented proportions. And while I understand that some may feel this is "off-topic," I feel it isn't as long as we're not actually debating the *validity* of any particular religious belief, or discussing our personal beliefs in a proselytizing manner (which I certainly am not). Someone raised the issue of how I could write for In Nomine being an atheist, which I think is a valid and interesting topic. And I think some of the most interesting contributions to this list have come from people drawing on their own religious views to create In Nomine scenarios. (Mormonism in In Nomine, Buddhism in In Nomine, paganism in In Nomine, etc.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:33:53 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine >>>This seems set up to give a servant of Rapine infinite dissonance. Sincservants of Rapine -want- everything, wouldn't they start racking up dissonance every time they passed up the chance to take -ANYTHING-?<<< No. They are demons of Rapine, not Greed. They don't want everything. They just have to take what they DO want, *if* they can. If there's a reasonable reason why taking it isn't feasible, they can pass it up. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:42:35 -0500 From: Adam Thomas Gieseler Subject: IN> The Unholy Ghost? Here's an idea: What if the Yves/Eli/Janus trinity thing is true, and Lucifer has set up his own Unholy Trinity, which consists of Kronos, Kobal, and Valefor, Lucifer himself being "above" the trinity in the same way that God is above Yves. If Lucifer created Kronos to embody the Fallen part of God, is it a stretch to say that he could instill aspects of that in Demon Princes? Kronos to counter Yves, Kobal to counter Eli, and Valefor to counter Janus? Assuming Janus isn't Valefor, although if he is it's still possible, just extremely much more complicated. :-) Kronos is the obvous opposite of Yves, and Kobal and Valefor correspond well with Eli and Janus, respectively. Kobal held his own against Yves for centuries, so it seems logical that he'd have an aspect of the Infernal Trinity, if it exists. And Valefor's Word, interpreted broadly, encompasses just about any loss--a holder f the Word could certainly do Kronos's job. I'm uncertain whether Valefor is too focused on actual corporeal _theft_ for this to count. At any rate, these three Princes are the only ones (excepting possibly Beleth) whose Words are served by just about _anything_ bad happening. (My interpretations of the IN universe may be off, as I haven't read the book; one of my friends at school has it and has GMed a couple games. I plan to purchase it when a second edition comes out, or when he graduates, whichever comes first.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:21:36 -0500 From: "Eris" Subject: Re: IN> RL Beliefs, Paganism, and perspectives >>>>David, I feel your words were ill-chosen, and I found them offensive.<<< > >Tough. > >I didn't misrepresent pagans, nor did I insult them. I am now taking this off-list, as apparently nothing else that was in that post got through. Again, people, let's get this off the list. That's not why it's here. I did not seek to debate the validity of your religion, nor did I denigrate anyone else's. I did not attack Christianity, and had I seen such a narrow minded attack as you describe I would have objected regardless of whose religion was being insulted. I was not speaking of portrayals I saw on this list, but in general, though your comment about 'Whiny Pagans' was insulting enough. *Any* comment that characterizes all members of *any* religion in a particular manner is bigoted and rude. You probably didn't see anyone else spring to defend Christianity because Christianity preaches 'turning the other cheek' and ignoring this sort of nonsense. Which, BTW, you can be certain I'll do from now on. Your comments were interesting when they were directed towards the topic of your atheism and how it affects your writing. You are an excellent writer, and I have used your story seeds in game, as my other post mentioned. The open-minded discussion of religious perspectives has always been welcome here. Your insults are not. Enough! I just got flamed for trying to stop this nonsense. Ths has gone far enough. No more. Eris Corax of Chaos very tired of getting flamed for trying to present a rational perspective; donning asbestos feathers. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 14:35:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Genubath, Demon Prince of Rapine On Sat, 25 Dec 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>This seems set up to give a servant of Rapine infinite dissonance. Sincservants of Rapine -want- everything, wouldn't they start racking up > dissonance every time they passed up the chance to take -ANYTHING-?<<< > > No. They are demons of Rapine, not Greed. They don't want everything. > They just have to take what they DO want, *if* they can. If there's a > reasonable reason why taking it isn't feasible, they can pass it up. The only sticky spot is the question of what's 'reasonable' and 'feasible', really. After all, 95% of the time, a demon can definitely overpower a human, or even a small group of them, in some way - or outrun them or otherwise get away from them. For example, say a Servitor of Rapine feels like he needs a car - he likes Buicks. He sees a person getting out of his Buick and putting the keys in his pocket. There are lots of people around, no visible cops, and the demon doesn't know if there are angels in the area. Would it be dissonant for him to jump the man, knock him out, and take his keys? What if there were cops visible, but the demon thought he could outrun them? (What if he thought he could out-SHOOT them?) What if there were known to be angels in the area? (Don't take this as argumentative - I seriously just want to clarify this. It was a wonderful writeup, and may see some use in my current game.) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "Punctuality, regularity, discipline, industry, thoroughness, are a set of slave virtues." -- G. D. H. Cole ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 14:37:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> The Unholy Ghost? On Sat, 25 Dec 1999, Adam Thomas Gieseler wrote: > Here's an idea: > > What if the Yves/Eli/Janus trinity thing is true, and Lucifer has set up > his own Unholy Trinity, which consists of Kronos, Kobal, and Valefor, > Lucifer himself being "above" the trinity in the same way that God is > above Yves. If Lucifer created Kronos to embody the Fallen part of God, > is it a stretch to say that he could instill aspects of that in Demon > Princes? Actually, yes. Lucifier DIDN'T create Kronos... he found Kronos, newly fallen, on the outskirts of Hell. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter. -- Mark Twain ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:14:57 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Betharan & Tebah - 'Partners & Pawns' As it is the season of giving, I'd like to contribute somewhat. . . Below is my rendition of Elizabeth "Arcangel" McCoy's favorate pair of Gamesters, Betharan and Tebah: http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine/rogues_gallery/demons/gamesters.ht ml (The URL _is_ a little long, so you're gonna have to reassemble it if it's cut into two.) Enjoy! (Before anyone asks, I _won't_ be accepting submissions to do your own characters. . . I _might_ be tempted if someone were to offer up say, the GMG and S1. . . But not for anything less than that. };;;>) (Also, I used Adobe Photoshop 5.0 to assemble the pictures I spent many hours on the web hunting down. If any else has any questions, _please_ direct them to me privately, thanks!) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 14:10:03 -0500 From: Adam Thomas Gieseler Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) >I'm not disputing here, just calling in what I see as a salient point. On >page 24 of the APG, under "More Sophisticated Uses of [Seraphim] Resonance," >the book details how a Seraph can pick up non-verbal lies. (A non-police >officer wearing a police uniform, someone passing counterfeit money, for >example.) To my mind, this would suggest that the Balseraphs' power would >involve the ability to convince someone that the money is good or the >uniform is real, despite the small inconsistencies (missing badge, horns on >the President, etc). But I arrive at that conclusion only through a sort of >IN obversion, so I could be very wrong. It seems to me that the Seraph resonance is legitimately broader than the Balseraph resonance, in the same way that the Kyriotate resonance is broader than the Shedite resonance. Angels can find out things that demons can't, and the extent of any demonic resonance may be less than the extent of the angelic resonance. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 14:21:35 -0500 From: Adam Thomas Gieseler Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Kudos to Ben for defending the reasonable position. I'm an atheist and am extremely intested in In Nomine. (Although I have only played a single session due to lack of a GM.) I also am undecided on the existence of angels. Anyone who wants to ask about the integrity of this set of beliefs can mail me off-list. Basically, IN was not made by and for Christians. (Derek Pearcy and the French writers may all be Christians; I don't know about that.) IN is an RPG which is intended for the role-playing audience, which, like the fantasy/sci-fi audience, includes a disproportionate number of atheists. It may have a greater appeal to Judeo-Christian theists, but it also has a greater appeal to spiritually open-minded and philosophically interested agnostics and atheists. (That's a mouthful!) >scientists/rationalists may proclaim their disbelief of something, there >is no "scientism" ideology that declares the existence or nonexistence >of anything. I disagree. The dominant paradigm of science says that "that which is beyond reason"--spirits, magic, and souls--do not exist. This has two parts: first, that these things transcend reason; second, that whatever transcends reason does not exist. The second is endorsed by science, and the first is held by enough scientists as to be part of the dominant belief structure of science. I'd like to know, off-list, on what you base the assertion that there is no ideology of "scientism." Now, to ensure that this is on-topic and so as not to delurk with something resembling a flame, how does IN lend itself to atheism? Is it interesting to play an atheist character? Is it possible to play an atheist angel? (Certainly Outcast in a low-contrast campaign, and watched by Judgement even in a high-contrast one.) Adam Gieseler whose latest character idea is an atheist Balseraph of the Media ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 14:24:12 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: RE: IN> Khalid and Religion (was Re: IN> Beliefs in RL) > Of course faith is just another word for belief (Unless my > dictionary/thesaurus is wrong). I am an athiest, I belive there > is no God, therefore I have faith that there is no God. Khalid > should be able to stomach an athiest. > Since I became a Christian 4 years ago, I wanted to learn more about God's plan for us. One of the things that I did was study archaic Greek (so that I could read the New Testaments in their oldest forms... Greek). Actually, the Greek word for faith sounds like "pis - tyoo - oh" (you can't spell it without using the Greek alphabet). Accurately translated, this word means "I believe", "I trust", and "I am confident". So... faith implies belief in God coupled with confidence in God's divine providence. It may seem like I am splitting hairs until you consider this illustration: Worry (a version of fear) shows the lack of faith. A fearful servant may believe in God's existence, but he does not trust in God's divine providence. So, you can believe in God without having much faith in Him at times. "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. ... Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life." (Matthew 6: 25-27, New International Version of the Bible) I would agree that a true atheist has strong *beliefs* about the absence of God (just as a theist has strong beliefs about the presence of God)... but I wouldn't call atheists faithful unbelievers. I wouldn't know how other religions defined faith. This is simply the Christian definition. Merry Christmas! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 07:18:27 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Proficiency Attunement and another rules question Greg Bilbruck wrote: Well, I'm not doing anything right now, so I'll field this one. > Observation: My take on this was that if Michael can teach a servitor how to > be effective with any combat style, Big Mike should be able to train him in > another style as well. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that Michael > *could* award this proficiency. > Question: Can this be a game breaking attunement? My answer to the player > was that I would check in with my In Nomine sources before I made a final > ruling. Do any of you have experience with this? What you get for your ten character points is a Perception roll, every round, to add the CD to your damage, _if_ you hit. So two rolls have to succeed each round in order to do an (on average) extra 3-4 Body Hits. Frankly, that doesn't sound game breaking. If the player wants to shell out another ten points for a second weapon, then another 10 points for a third etc, I doubt it'll be a real problem. In fact, the player's probably _losing_ combat effectiveness - after a point, those ten points could be better spent on a new Force or higher skill levels. > Some questions about the Proficiency attunement: > > Observation: "including styles of unarmed combat" (text take from > Proficiency attunement) must mean the 'style' of Fighting chosen (IN, p.75: > "crushing blows of a boxer or cunning grips of an Oriental master"). > Question: Does this apply to the Celestial Fighting skill as well as > Corporeal Fighting skill? Same skill. Covers _all_ forms of unarmed combat on all planes (including Ethereal combat, if you can do it). I'd certainly allow Proficiency to work on all forms of Fighting - after all, such attacks have low damage bonuses anyway. > Observation: "gives a special expertise with one type of weapon" > Question: Does this imply that proficiency is gained in broad weapon > categories (large weapon, small weapon, ranged weapon, etc.)... or does it > imply narrower categories (axes, swords, small blades, handguns, bows, > shotguns and rifles, machine guns, etc.)? The second. IN, page 37; Carin, a sample character, has Proficiency (Pistol). > Question: Must a Celestial buy both Fighting skills (Celestial and > Corporeal), or is the Fighting skill proficiency used in both planes of > existence (with strength being used as the stat modifier on the corporeal > plane and will being used in the celestial)? See above. One skill, modified by different stats in different planes. Hope that was helpful. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You ought to be peeled, salted, driven through the streets by mental patients with spiked planks, and then used as a toilet and jizz-catcher by baboons in heat. At _best_. - - Spider Jerusalem, TRANSMETROPOLITAN #4 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1472 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.